Magic the Gathering Champion: Dating Dealbreaker [Archive]

skywalker

2011-08-30, 02:14 AM

I don't particularly care about her disliking him because he's a geek, but posting details of private dates on a public message board? That's a nasty thing to do regardless of the circumstances. Frankly, I think he's well shot of her.

Precisely. "I'm going to use my bully pulpit on one of the biggest geek-related sites in the world to express my shallowness." Of course, if you're going to be that shallow, how could you pass up the fact that he's a hedge fund manager?

I've actually had a couple of conversations along similar lines since I started playing MtG.

Me: I've started playing Magic: The Gathering.
Friend: :smallyuk: Are you serious?
Me: Let me show you my deck.
Friend: Fine, fine. Just don't get it on me, I'll never see a member of the opposite sex again.
Me: You see, you have 60 cards, and you can only have 4 of each card... *explains the basics of MtG, perhaps getting as advanced as "mana curve."*
Friend: Oh... :smallredface: Oh I see... this is actually a smart-people game... You... actually put your Economics degree to use with this. Why doesn't this impress more people?

LaZodiac

2011-08-30, 02:27 AM

Skeppio

2011-08-30, 02:29 AM

She's as shallow as a puddle, that one. I'd say he's far better off without her. :smallannoyed:

The Succubus

2011-08-30, 05:43 AM

Heheh. Why do people always think nerds are easy pickings for taunting and general nastiness? We have arcane ways of avenging ourselves, you know.....

Fan

2011-08-30, 05:48 AM

Wait... so you date a world class chess player who's also famous, and probably rich, and you COMPLAIN? That's like, dating the Shaun Connery of Nerdom, the only way you get any better is by landing an engagement with Joss Whedon, or a dinner date with Bill gates and this girl has the gall.. not only to complain... but to outright reject him?

THEN she goes online in an attempt to embarrass him on a nation wide scale?

There has to be something wrong with this girl, I can understand not clicking with him on a chemistry level.. but the man wasn't rude to her or anything and she goes out and does that?

No. Just no.

The Succubus

2011-08-30, 05:54 AM

One other thought springs to mind - she's really shot herself in the foot, dating wise. News like "I gave a blow by blow analysis of a previous date, together with derisive comments at the end" is probably the fastest way to ensure you remain single for a long time.

Moonshadow

2011-08-30, 06:24 AM

I'd like to be surprised, but I'm not. There are just some girls like that out there. It doesn't automatically mean all women are like that though.

I'm sure there are probably some men out there like that too.

But really? Because he was a nerd? I thought we'd moved past the whole "OMG HE'S A NERD THEREFORE INHERITANLY UNDATEABLE" yadda yadda yadda.

Alchemistmerlin

2011-08-30, 08:03 AM

I should also like to note that this particular classy lady has edited that article upwards of 10 times since it was originally posted in an attempt to save face.

She has failed.

Here's the original, unedited, article preserved for posterity and it is so much worse than the version that is currently posted.
http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2011/08/my-okcupid-affair-with-a-world-champion-magic-the-gathering-player/

My favorite part:
"Also, for all you world famous nerds out there: Don’t go after two Gawker Media employees and not expect to have a post written about you. We live for this kind of stuff."

Posted without comment beyond "Wow. Just Wow."

Form

2011-08-30, 08:27 AM

If she doesn't want to date geeky guys, fine. We're all entitled to our dating preferences, even if they seem a bit strange to others, and maybe he should have mentioned his geekiness on his OKcupid profile.

But what strikes me as improper is A) the judgemental tone of the article with respect to geeks and B) the need/attempt to publicly humiliate someone simply because they don't conform to her dating standards. That's what bothers me about this, not the fact that she wouldn't date him because he's a bit of a geek.

arguskos

2011-08-30, 08:28 AM

You know, I met Finkel at a tourney once, years ago. He's a super chill dude, actually. Funny, friendly, quite likable. I didn't realize who it was until later (I was a kid). I can't help but feel bad for him about this situation. Dude didn't deserve this treatment. :smallfrown:

Mono Vertigo

2011-08-30, 08:57 AM

I believe the proper reaction there is "ROFL".
And nothing of value was lost*.

*well, she did lose the guy. If that's her normal behaviour though, I feel like he deserves someone better. She entirely brought it upon herself, and I'm not even sure she realizes just how much of a mistake she's made.

The Succubus

2011-08-30, 09:03 AM

Fera Tian

2011-08-30, 10:21 AM

The comments on the Australian version make for interesting, yet NSFW reading. I agree with a surprisingly large percentage. It does put me off the idea of trying MTG though, in case I end up in a relationship with a spiteful, venomous journalistic harpy.

Just don't talk about it or win world tournaments and I think you'll be fine.

Fan

2011-08-30, 10:49 AM

The comments on the Australian version make for interesting, yet NSFW reading. I agree with a surprisingly large percentage. It does put me off the idea of trying MTG though, in case I end up in a relationship with a spiteful, venomous journalistic harpy.

That sounds like a bonus actually, seeing as playing Magic repels that type of woman.:smalltongue:

The Succubus

2011-08-30, 10:59 AM

That sounds like a bonus actually, seeing as playing Magic repels that type of woman.:smalltongue:

Is there card for that? ;)

Keld Denar

2011-08-30, 11:22 AM

Circle of Protection: Witch

(substitute Witch for rhyming word of your choice)

Alchemistmerlin

2011-08-30, 11:31 AM

LaZodiac

2011-08-30, 11:41 AM

Mono Vertigo

2011-08-30, 11:48 AM

Reading these last lines, I'm now convinced Gizmodo just isn't nerdy enough for me, and I'll try and avoid the site in the future.
(Hey, you can't have it both way with bad business sense.)

:smallamused::smallbiggrin:

Cristo Meyers

2011-08-30, 12:56 PM

factotum

2011-08-30, 12:57 PM

Other Gizmodo employees are actively defending her, going so far as to say that they "totally agree about Magic, it is like Larping, D&D, or Pokemon: It is just TOO nerdy."

But the guy now plays high-stakes poker, and even when he was mostly about Magic, he was winning *serious* money doing it! I don't think you can earn five-figure (possibly even six-figure) prizes doing any of the other three, can you?

LaZodiac

2011-08-30, 12:59 PM

I dunno, they may get along famously with a LARP-er.

I mean, LARP-ers spend time pretending to be their characters, and these folks spend time pretending to be legitimate journalists.

Ice burn. But totally appropriate :smalltongue:

Giggling Ghast

2011-08-30, 01:03 PM

What, seriously? Magic: The Gathering too geeky?

I's just math. Take away the name, the art and the flavour, and all it is math. What's wrong with a person who makes decent money at math?

Essence_of_War

2011-08-30, 01:12 PM

If you don't follow Finkel on twitter, he has been a class act about this whole nonsense.

Finkel's Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/jonnymagic00)

Highlights:

Thanks for all the support internet. People want "my side" but it was really a complete non event. Go out on a date that's kinda blah.

Next day the girl tweets me about what shes reading about me, my reply is merely a prophetic, "Remember to use your powers only for good"

She then texts me about serial killer dreams and I dont reply because I didnt think we had much chemistry. A couple days later I'm home

and I'm a bit bored and I know she works right by me and seemed like the sort of girl I should like so I text her about grabbing a bite

Since I know she works around the corner. An hour later we meet up and it quickly becomes clear I'm bored, she's bored(I assume)

But its raining heavily out.Eventually I suggest we head out anyways and luckily I find a cab. We go our separate ways and never speak again

At that point I just thought she was a nice girl, which I still mostly think. God knows we've all made poor decisions in our lives.

Id like to thank everyone for their messages, and Im sorry I cant reply to them all - especially all the date requests from cute nerdy girls

For the record I wanted to state that not mentioning magic in my profile has nothing to do with wanting to hide it or being ashamed of it.

In fact my accomplishments in magic are one of the things I'm most proud of in life. There just doesn't seem to be a graceful way to say:

"10 years ago I was the best in the world at this game you're only 50% to have heard of" - plus it ensures every conversation goes that way.

And of course then there's the googling, an the information asymmetry, and before you've met someone they know all this stuff about you.

But I have no problem mentioning it in person, tho Im sure I said "I was the world champion" not "I am the world champion"

Adumbration

2011-08-30, 01:35 PM

Sipex

2011-08-30, 01:39 PM

Rumour has it Alyssa has been taken off the employee page since this article. I can't confirm it.

Also, really? The company is standing behind this? Is it true?

I mean, they realise their fanbase is...well...nerds right? Sure, maybe not all of us are into D&D/Magic/other things they listed as 'too nerdy' but we get EXTREMELY defensive and appauled when someone starts getting predjudiced about it.

Eldan

2011-08-30, 01:47 PM

Brother Oni

2011-08-30, 02:00 PM

You get into the basics pretty quickly, from what I remember. Actual strategy and non-silly deckbuilding, though...

You never grow out of silly deckbuilding! *Pets his Apocalypse-Jokulhaups-Armageddon deck affectionately* :smallbiggrin:

Suicidal Charge

2011-08-30, 02:00 PM

This whole thing has made me want to start playing Magic. (Already into tabletop roleplaying games and boardgames and stuff like that.) Too bad I don't have any friends into playing MTG and it's sort of a high learning curve starting on your own, I believe. Read: I'm lazy.

For playing, the starter decks have a nice, fairly small, rules foldout. For deck building, the Deck Builder's Kit1 has a foldout with some nice rules of thumb on it.

1I may or may not be getting this name right2

2How does one do superscript?3

3Thank you, Keld.4

4Footnote overload! :smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar

2011-08-30, 02:10 PM

[sup] tags

Really Important CrapTM

Fox Box Socks

2011-08-30, 02:18 PM

For the record, this is what Jon Finkel looks like.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/images/article/060512-finkel.jpg
So he's a good looking guy who's smart, has money, and is among the best in the world at what he does.

As a male, I can safely say that this man is a catch.

Ravens_cry

2011-08-30, 02:21 PM

The Nerds Have Gone to War.
Heaven have Mercy on Her Soul, They Will Not.
***
I do not play Magic, one I don't have the money (I live on my own on a really tight budget), two, I don't like competitive, combinational games. But as a nerd, geek, and dork, as a human being, seriously lady, what the flaming <expletive redacted/>?!
So you don't like geeks. A bit arbitrary, geeks come in all shapes, sizes, and even personalities and genders, but a taste is a taste, and that's your own business.
But basically shouting about it, putting up personal details that should, by any rights, remain between you and him, and possibly close friends, in a public place, and somehow being surprised when it blows up in your face?
Lady, you are no lady.

Fox Box Socks

2011-08-30, 02:24 PM

Also, if you don't like people that are kinda geeky, why the hell are you trying internet dating? That's what internet dating is for.

Sipex

2011-08-30, 02:29 PM

It seems this may be a ploy by Gizmodo to get hits.

Unfortunately, relevant links keep disabling themselves mysteriously.

Not suspicious at all :/

skywalker

2011-08-30, 02:32 PM

Stay classy, gawker media group.

Hehehe, you've never met these people, have you? I didn't realize Gizmodo was part of Gawker.
...
And now I've deleted my Gizmodo feeds. How big of a mess is this girl going to cause?

I's just math. Take away the name, the art and the flavour, and all it is math. What's wrong with a person who makes decent money at math?

Wait a minute... There's art on these cards?! Ooh, and they have names and flavor text too! :smallwink:

I would say it's more about probability, statistics, and "law" than real math. Not that it's any less impressive, just that I'm terrible at math, and pretty decent at Magic.

Fox Box Socks

2011-08-30, 02:36 PM

It seems this may be a ploy by Gizmodo to get hits.

Unfortunately, relevant links keep disabling themselves mysteriously.

Not suspicious at all :/
It's not. Finkel has responded on Twitter / Reddit that he did indeed go out on a date with her, and she did indeed turn out to be kind of...insane.

Whether or not she posted her side just to get attention is still up for grabs.

Alchemistmerlin

2011-08-30, 02:41 PM

It's not. Finkel has responded on Twitter / Reddit that he did indeed go out on a date with her, and she did indeed turn out to be kind of...insane.

Whether or not she posted her side just to get attention is still up for grabs.

Oh it is most certainly click-mining. They made a LOT of money by insulting a group it is safe to insult without legal ramifications. They knew what they were doing.

Sipex

2011-08-30, 02:42 PM

Oh yeah, I read that stuff, it was good.

I meant the ploy where she posted the article publicly to generate hits.

Fox Box Socks

2011-08-30, 02:53 PM

"Magic Players Shocked To Discover Most People Don't Like Magic Players.

Film At 11"

Alchemistmerlin

2011-08-30, 03:04 PM

"Magic Players Shocked To Discover Most People Don't Like Magic Players.

Film At 11"

:smallconfused:

Sarcasm only really works if it delivers a message. This, especially on the internet, is so wildly open to interpretation as to be an entirely empty post.

I don't play magic, and yet I found the article both shocking and insulting.

Kneenibble

2011-08-30, 03:13 PM

Tyndmyr

2011-08-30, 03:24 PM

The comments on the Australian version make for interesting, yet NSFW reading. I agree with a surprisingly large percentage. It does put me off the idea of trying MTG though, in case I end up in a relationship with a spiteful, venomous journalistic harpy.

I feel like if it gets me out of such a relationship faster, it's a win.

Perhaps I should get back into the game, just in case.

Ursus the Grim

2011-08-30, 05:04 PM

You never grow out of silly deckbuilding! *Pets his Apocalypse-Jokulhaups-Armageddon deck affectionately* :smallbiggrin:

This. My best deck was a Wither deck. My favorite Deck was a Bear and Wurm deck. Werebear is hilarious, but roflstomping when I somehow manage a cheesed out Autochthon is even funnier.

Anyway, I read the article with only a bit of interest until I hit the name.

Jon Frelling Finkel

I have known of him for the vast majority of my lengthy (if casual) MTG life. Ever since I got my hands on one of these (http://www.trollandtoad.com/p94879.html) WAY back in the day. This man has to be the second most famous figure in MTG, second only to the creator himself (who, I believe, Finkel actually beat).

Edit:
For anyone who's curious.
Finkel debuted about 16 years ago in Magic and won an average of just shy of $20,000 each year, a total of $291,000.
In 2005, he won about $70,000 dollars playing Poker.
If he was indeed a hedge fund manager, he probably makes at least $150,000 annually.

So this shallow woman basically cost herself a man worth somewhere around 180,000 dollars because she doesn't like 'geeks'. Nothing of value was lost. For Finkel anyway.

The Succubus

2011-08-30, 05:53 PM

I feel like if it gets me out of such a relationship faster, it's a win.

Perhaps I should get back into the game, just in case.

Which game? :smalltongue:

Joran

2011-08-30, 06:32 PM

Oh it is most certainly click-mining. They made a LOT of money by insulting a group it is safe to insult without legal ramifications. They knew what they were doing.

Part of me thinks this. That's the part where people act rationally and in their own self interests.

The other part of me who has a shockingly low estimation of humanity in general believes that would require a level of self-awareness she doesn't seem to possess. Instead, I think she genuinely thought this was a humorous piece. The editor who allowed this post to go up definitely knew what was coming: clicks galore.

The worst part is the breach of privacy. Decency at least requires her to remove enough identifying information to hide who exactly he was. Calling him out by name is just uncalled for.

The shame is that the writer was handed a golden story on a silver platter. It could have been a funny humor slant, with a self-deprecating writer. It could have been an interesting article about online dating and the people that she met. It could have been an article focused on any of the various parts of Jon Finkel's life, assuming he was willing to talk. There's a multitude of directions this story could have went and she went with the self-absorbed, poor writing direction.

Coidzor

2011-08-30, 06:45 PM

Well, I'm just conflicted. On the one hand I dislike magic the gathering and the idea of it as a source of income. On the other hand this scenario is just so ridiculously stupid.

:smallconfused:

Alchemistmerlin

2011-08-30, 07:03 PM

Well, I'm just conflicted. On the one hand I dislike magic the gathering and the idea of it as a source of income. On the other hand this scenario is just so ridiculously stupid.

:smallconfused:

Why do you dislike the idea of someone making money playing a game they enjoy?

Coidzor

2011-08-30, 07:19 PM

Why do you dislike the idea of someone making money playing a game they enjoy?

Well, I dislike the game, and the expectation that is repeatedly shoved down my throat that if I am to be geeky at all I have to be head over heels in love with it and spend my disposable income on it, so that's part of it.

The other part of it is related to political views I hold that I don't believe I can go into fully here.

The third part of it is related to ethical views I hold on the subject of the concept of money and work. That is, there is a part of me that finds financial solvency that does not arise from something that is constructive to be distasteful.

Especially when it's a hobby devoted to bleeding one of one's disposable income. It's incongruous to me and I find it inelegant and unaesthetic.

Like making money off of something like Warhammer which demands you spend hundreds of dollars and man-hours on models and painting them. It just doesn't click right in my brain.

Alchemistmerlin

2011-08-30, 07:55 PM

Coidzor

2011-08-30, 08:10 PM

Well, I did say I was conflicted initially. :smallwink:

Alchemistmerlin

2011-08-30, 08:17 PM

Well, I did say I was conflicted initially. :smallwink:

Fair enough, I'll let it go.

Regardless of your opinion on magic though, he is an arguably productive member of society, being that he is a hedge fund manager, and from most accounts a pretty nice guy and the author of the article was unkind at best.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2011-08-30, 08:22 PM

I'd tap his mountains anyday.

Oh Kneenibble, you always make me laugh.

I call this article out as trolling.

Coidzor

2011-08-30, 08:38 PM

Regardless of your opinion on magic though, he is an arguably productive member of society, being that he is a hedge fund manager, and from most accounts a pretty nice guy and the author of the article was unkind at best.

That is pretty much entirely separate from the magic thing, yeah.

Heliomance

2011-08-30, 10:23 PM

Circle of Protection: Witch

(substitute Witch for rhyming word of your choice)

Circle of Protection: Lich?

Ursus the Grim

2011-08-30, 10:44 PM

Circle of Protection: Lich?

Actually, she played Circle of Protection: Rich

Given what we know about his professions and success.

Mando Knight

2011-08-31, 12:19 AM

I call this article out as trolling.
Yeah, my Troll-O-Meter currently caps out at only 75%, though. Thing needs more calibrating.

(Finkel was probably looking for a more "normal" girl himself, I think... pretty sure marriage/courtships aren't those relationships that are generally strengthened by regular direct competition for money and prestige...)

absolmorph

2011-08-31, 04:39 AM

He's a Magic champ AND a Poker champ? Doesn't that mean he's kinda loaded?

What is this ladies major malfunction? He's, for lack of a better term, a nerd, and thus prooobably would appreciate her more. AND he's got cash monies. AND he's famous. I bet he even has a LEATHER JACKET! He's everyone a women wants.
See bolded text for most amazing standard for romantic relationships.

She's as shallow as a puddle, that one. I'd say he's far better off without her. :smallannoyed:
Shallow? Have you taken a look at Finkel? He knows how to dress himself really well.

Runestar

2011-08-31, 06:35 AM

Funny, I always thought Finkel had orange hair and was plumber. Maybe I am confusing him for another player? :smallconfused:

Adumbration

2011-08-31, 07:20 AM

Funny, I always thought Finkel had orange hair and was plumber. Maybe I am confusing him for another player? :smallconfused:

Didn't you know that Finkel is Einhorn?

Runestar

2011-08-31, 07:34 AM

Didn't you know that Finkel is Einhorn?

Not sure what you mean. I have read a lot about Finkel's victories (though my favourite players remains Zvi Moshowitz), remembered seeing his photo in a copy of inquest once sporting orange hair. Been a while since I last googled his photo though. :smalltongue:

Serpentine

2011-08-31, 07:55 AM

I saw this earlier today.
The guy's cute, intelligent, apparently successful in several different ventures, at least well-off... Damn. Her loss :smallwink:
If you don't follow Finkel on twitter, he has been a class act about this whole nonsense.

Finkel's Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/jonnymagic00)

Highlights:

Thanks for all the support internet. People want "my side" but it was really a complete non event. Go out on a date that's kinda blah.

Next day the girl tweets me about what shes reading about me, my reply is merely a prophetic, "Remember to use your powers only for good"

She then texts me about serial killer dreams and I dont reply because I didnt think we had much chemistry. A couple days later I'm home

and I'm a bit bored and I know she works right by me and seemed like the sort of girl I should like so I text her about grabbing a bite

Since I know she works around the corner. An hour later we meet up and it quickly becomes clear I'm bored, she's bored(I assume)

But its raining heavily out.Eventually I suggest we head out anyways and luckily I find a cab. We go our separate ways and never speak again

At that point I just thought she was a nice girl, which I still mostly think. God knows we've all made poor decisions in our lives.

Id like to thank everyone for their messages, and Im sorry I cant reply to them all - especially all the date requests from cute nerdy girls

For the record I wanted to state that not mentioning magic in my profile has nothing to do with wanting to hide it or being ashamed of it.

In fact my accomplishments in magic are one of the things I'm most proud of in life. There just doesn't seem to be a graceful way to say:

"10 years ago I was the best in the world at this game you're only 50% to have heard of" - plus it ensures every conversation goes that way.

And of course then there's the googling, an the information asymmetry, and before you've met someone they know all this stuff about you.

But I have no problem mentioning it in person, tho Im sure I said "I was the world champion" not "I am the world champion"

Thanks a lot for that. I was gonna ask whether he had anything to say about it. Good to hear about the "date requests from cute nerdy girls" bit :smallamused:
The third part of it is related to ethical views I hold on the subject of the concept of money and work. That is, there is a part of me that finds financial solvency that does not arise from something that is constructive to be distasteful.I presume you also dislike professional sport, then. And people making money of their own art. And jewellers...

Form

2011-08-31, 07:56 AM

"Magic Players Shocked To Discover Most People Don't Like Magic Players.

Film At 11"

Not liking the game Magic is one thing. Not liking a person just because they play Magic, however, is ridiculous.

The Succubus

2011-08-31, 08:06 AM

Not liking the game Magic is one thing. Not liking a person just because they play Magic, however, is ridiculous.

Not ridiculous.

I've never told anyone this but one of my most deep seated traumas is because of someone who played Magic. I remember the evil glare in his eyes, the way he must have knowingly forseen what was about to happen....I still bear the scar of the papercut from the card to this day. *sobs* :smallfrown:

Ursus the Grim

2011-08-31, 09:15 AM

Kneenibble

2011-08-31, 09:21 AM

Mercenary Pen

2011-08-31, 09:34 AM

Not ridiculous.

I've never told anyone this but one of my most deep seated traumas is because of someone who played Magic. I remember the evil glare in his eyes, the way he must have knowingly forseen what was about to happen....I still bear the scar of the papercut from the card to this day. *sobs* :smallfrown:

At least unlike certain other TCGs *looks down at my sig for a moment* souls are not on the line...

Not a magic player (because a different TCG got me first and I don't have money to invest well in two), but I doubt I'd have handled the issue as well as this guy has so far. The girl is a jerk as far as I can tell, and I would have snapped well before the worst of what he's gone through.

arguskos

2011-08-31, 09:57 AM

You had a date with Gambit?

...can I get his number?
Dammit Knee! I wanted to make that joke. :smallfurious::smallbiggrin:

Keld Denar

2011-08-31, 10:10 AM

Alchemistmerlin

2011-08-31, 10:29 AM

Anyone know if she've been sacked yet? Cause if someone dragged my reputation through the gutter like she has, I'd can her so fast she'd be standing on the sidewalk blinking and wondering if she just experienced teleportation.

Not only has she not been sacked, but the editors of gizmodo have come out in her defense and said that the article "was a success".

arguskos

2011-08-31, 10:30 AM

Not only has she not been sacked, but the editors of gizmodo have come out in her defense and said that the article "was a success".
[Citation Needed]

Give us some links to them publicly saying that, please. I've heard a lot and seen little proof, and would looooooove to see that. :smallbiggrin:

Alchemistmerlin

2011-08-31, 10:49 AM

[Citation Needed]

Give us some links to them publicly saying that, please. I've heard a lot and seen little proof, and would looooooove to see that. :smallbiggrin:

Here's another gizmodo employee saying exactly that:

Welp, don't hold your breath! The article was a success and I don't see her apologizing or getting the boot anytime soon.

http://gizmodo.com/5833787/my-brief-okcupid-affair-with-a-world-champion-magic-the-gathering-player?comment=42268595#comments

Took me...maybe 5 minutes to find? :smallbiggrin:

Sipex

2011-08-31, 10:56 AM

So gawker promotes their employees slandering their main fanbase for that particular blog (nerds) then arguing with them when they take issue?

Really?

It's times like this I wish boycotting actually worked.

Tyndmyr

2011-08-31, 01:08 PM

Well, I dislike the game, and the expectation that is repeatedly shoved down my throat that if I am to be geeky at all I have to be head over heels in love with it and spend my disposable income on it, so that's part of it.

Oh, hell, people who LIKE magic have trouble with that. I can enjoy the game, or portions of it, and not dive into all that. Got boxes of old cards.

And GW can die in a fire. I got burned out on that treadmill already. I'll spend tons on the hobbies I love*, but I hate being forced to do so, or having to deal with endlessly changing rulesets just to try to con me out of more money.

*Not even kidding. I'm sure I've spent thousands on D&D 3.5 alone.

Heliomance

2011-08-31, 01:23 PM

Legend of the Give Rings>Magic :P

*ducks incoming flames*

Coidzor

2011-08-31, 01:52 PM

Here's another gizmodo employee saying exactly that:

How strange. What exactly is supposed to be gizmodo's schtick anyway? I thought they were supposed to be about geekery over gadgets. :smallconfused:

I presume you also dislike professional sport, then. And people making money of their own art. And jewellers...

:smallconfused: Of course I have objections to professional sports, I've said so on multiple occasions, though I'll admit, less because of the people making money off of it and potentially destroying their bodies in their youth, and more because of the place it holds in society.

Why is the possibility that someone could dislike the way the general populace treat and devote themselves to professional sports a problem for you?

As for jewelers, there's a sordid history behind most of them(*cough*DeBeers*cough*), so I'm not sure why you'd take special issue with taking issue with what could be viewed as a tainted source of income.

Art's more complicated in that there are layers of distinction there, and I'd have to give a full accounting of my personal philosophies which would probably take a while and lead us onto an extended tangent. Quickest way to put it would be that there are some distinctions that can be drawn.

Trog

2011-08-31, 07:01 PM

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll

2011-08-31, 07:04 PM

I bet he even has a LEATHER JACKET! He's everyone a women wants.

See bolded text for most amazing standard for romantic relationships.

... I have a leather jacket.

/strikes pathetic pose.

Ursus the Grim

2011-08-31, 07:14 PM

Trog

2011-08-31, 07:36 PM

Yeah, that's weird.

You know what's weirder? She considered that less offensive than his status as MtG champion?
You know what's even weirder? She knew all that about him, had those feelings about him and his hobby, and still agreed to go out on a second date with him.

Alchemistmerlin

2011-08-31, 07:44 PM

You know what's even weirder? She knew all that about him, had those feelings about him and his hobby, and still agreed to go out on a second date with him.

From what I have heard about the show, it was actually really good and well done.

It sounds better than 90% of my first dates ever which generally boil down to "Dinner that costs to much and a film neither person really was psyched about"

I'm going to assume she agreed to go on the second date for the sake of writing the article because she knew she could make a LOT of money off of it (And she has).

Coidzor

2011-08-31, 08:17 PM

From what I have heard about the show, it was actually really good and well done.

It sounds better than 90% of my first dates ever which generally boil down to "Dinner that costs to much and a film neither person really was psyched about"

Considering the subject matter though, it's certainly one of the odder moves so far as actually wanting to pursue someone else go.

Just the premise of asking someone to go on a date to see such a show sounds like a form of IRL trolling on the surface. :smallconfused:

I'm going to assume she agreed to go on the second date for the sake of writing the article because she knew she could make a LOT of money off of it (And she has).

I guess it really was a perfect storm of weirdness. :smallconfused:

Keld Denar

2011-08-31, 08:27 PM

Honestly? I think she's lucky he's a decent guy. People have been sued for publishing less. What she did is libel. If it wasn't for the fact that he's pretty much better off compared to how dumb she looks, he could probably sue her pants right off her ugly butt.

Heliomance

2011-08-31, 08:50 PM

It's not libel if it's true, and I don't think she claimed anything as fact that is demonstrably not.

Keld Denar

2011-08-31, 09:03 PM

She made defamatory statements about him. He "lured" her. He "lied" to her. He "went after her coworkers". These are all negative comments that are unfounded. I could have potentially hurt his reputation and possibly his business. Thats libel.

LaZodiac

2011-08-31, 09:31 PM

... I have a leather jacket.

/strikes pathetic pose.

No pose is pathetic if it involves leather.

skywalker

2011-09-01, 12:10 AM

Well, I dislike the game, and the expectation that is repeatedly shoved down my throat that if I am to be geeky at all I have to be head over heels in love with it and spend my disposable income on it, so that's part of it.

[...]

The third part of it is related to ethical views I hold on the subject of the concept of money and work. That is, there is a part of me that finds financial solvency that does not arise from something that is constructive to be distasteful.

I think you should lighten up. I think you will find that many, many geeks think loving Magic is not a requirement for being geeky, many geeks look down on MtG, just like you do.

I guess I can't really argue with a matter of taste, I just don't understand what is so morally wrong with MtG. Perhaps for the industry of Magic, the random packs and the rarities and what-not, but the game itself is a rather rewarding pastime.

Regardless of your opinion on magic though, he is an arguably productive member of society, being that he is a hedge fund manager, and from most accounts a pretty nice guy and the author of the article was unkind at best.

Do you know what hedge fund managers do? Perhaps it's my own prejudices, but I'd say the Magic Champion adds more value to society, honestly.

So gawker promotes their employees slandering their main fanbase for that particular blog (nerds) then arguing with them when they take issue?

Really?

Have you never met these people?

You know the guy should chalk it up as a victory that he even got a second date with this gal after surprising her with tickets to a show about serial killer/sex offender/necrophiliac/cannibal Jeffrey Dahmer's life story on their first date. Sorry but... really? :smallconfused:

I'm not entirely sure this actually happened. Finkel hasn't denied it, but he hasn't confirmed it, either.

Considering the subject matter though, it's certainly one of the odder moves so far as actually wanting to pursue someone else go.

Just the premise of asking someone to go on a date to see such a show sounds like a form of IRL trolling on the surface. :smallconfused:

This raises the interesting possibility to me that either Finkel himself was trolling OKCupid, or he's the type of person to buy two tickets to the Jeffrey Dahmer show, and put them in his pocket. If during the course of dinner he realizes "this girl is a witch/this date is going way south," he whips out the Dahmer tickets. If not, they stay safely ensconced in his pocket. I might consider doing that sometime, if I've ever got that kind of money.

Gorgondantess

2011-09-01, 12:18 AM

You know the guy should chalk it up as a victory that he even got a second date with this gal after surprising her with tickets to a show about serial killer/sex offender/necrophiliac/cannibal Jeffrey Dahmer's life story on their first date. Sorry but... really? :smallconfused:

I would be positively thrilled to be asked to go to a show like that.
Granted, it's a risky idea for a first date, as you might alienate someone who would otherwise like you... but still.:smallbiggrin:

What I'm wondering is, why the hell is the guy doing online dating in the first place? He's smart, young, wealthy and attractive, he shouldn't need that kindof thing.

THAC0

2011-09-01, 12:31 AM

...or he's the type of person to buy two tickets to the Jeffrey Dahmer show, and put them in his pocket. If during the course of dinner he realizes "this girl is a witch/this date is going way south," he whips out the Dahmer tickets. If not, they stay safely ensconced in his pocket. I might consider doing that sometime, if I've ever got that kind of money.

That's... pretty weird. Even if I had infinite money, I don't think I'd ever have thought of that. There are way easier ways to get out of a bad date.

Tebryn

2011-09-01, 12:35 AM

You know the guy should chalk it up as a victory that he even got a second date with this gal after surprising her with tickets to a show about serial killer/sex offender/necrophiliac/cannibal Jeffrey Dahmer's life story on their first date. Sorry but... really? :smallconfused:

Considering she expressed an interest in such things in their talks I don't see why it's that weird. I went on a date with my boyfriend on the Jack the Ripper tour in London and it was a great time. People have different tastes than you. Go figure.

Joran

2011-09-01, 12:51 AM

What I'm wondering is, why the hell is the guy doing online dating in the first place? He's smart, young, wealthy and attractive, he shouldn't need that kindof thing.

Wants to meet new people, nothing wrong with that. If you can't meet people through your hobbies, it's a great way to expand your social circle.

Let's face it, high-level Magic: the Gathering or poker or hedge fund managing do not have a high proportion of women. If he doesn't have the time to pick up a new hobby, then online dating works well.

Why he's using OKCupid rather than a paid site, I don't know.

Considering she expressed an interest in such things in their talks I don't see why it's that weird. I went on a date with my boyfriend on the Jack the Ripper tour in London and it was a great time. People have different tastes than you. Go figure.

It's also in New York, where going to a play is a more common form of entertainment than elsewhere in the United States.

Serpentine

2011-09-01, 12:54 AM

Why he's using OKCupid rather than a paid site, I don't know.Cuz it's free, casual, low-pressure and has other stuff going on?

Moonshadow

2011-09-01, 01:47 AM

Why he's using OKCupid rather than a paid site, I don't know.

Because using a paid dating site doesn't give you better odds for getting a date? :smallconfused: They're honestly a waste of money. At least with a free site, you're not paying to get rejected constantly.

Trog

2011-09-01, 07:04 AM

Considering she expressed an interest in such things in their talks I don't see why it's that weird. I went on a date with my boyfriend on the Jack the Ripper tour in London and it was a great time. People have different tastes than you. Go figure.
This isn't about my tastes it's about first impressions on a date in general and the hi-we've-just-met-surprise-lets-go-watch-the-life-story-of-a-serial-killer squick factor. You have to admit that that tactic isn't going to be an overall winner for the majority of blind dates.

I must have missed that she expressed an interest in the play first. If so then that's different then. I'm not taking a dig at the play just that its subject matter doesn't seem like a good one to give a first impression if sprung on someone you have never met before out of the blue.

Sipex

2011-09-01, 07:41 AM

Because using a paid dating site doesn't give you better odds for getting a date? :smallconfused: They're honestly a waste of money. At least with a free site, you're not paying to get rejected constantly.

Also, just because he would have the money to pay for a dating site doesn't mean his ideal girl would have it or be willing to pay for the site.

Also, OKCupid is just plain full of geeks. When presented with two options in our primary domain (the internet) which are almost exactly the same except one is free we tend to make the economically sound decision.

Alchemistmerlin

2011-09-01, 08:35 AM

I would be positively thrilled to be asked to go to a show like that.
Granted, it's a risky idea for a first date, as you might alienate someone who would otherwise like you... but still.:smallbiggrin:

What I'm wondering is, why the hell is the guy doing online dating in the first place? He's smart, young, wealthy and attractive, he shouldn't need that kindof thing.

I gotta admit I'm a little bit offended by this.

I met my current girlfriend (Almost 2 years now, woo! :smallbiggrin:) on OKC.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into your statement but it seems you feel that the sort of person who uses online dating is the sort of person who lacks for other options because of some shortcoming, which is odd.

Moonshadow

2011-09-01, 09:15 AM

Personally, I find internet dating tends to find me women based on my personality and my sheer awesomeness, as opposed to my appearance or the size of my wallet.

That, and they generally tend to be the kind of girl I'm interested in anyways... so all in all, it works for me.

Tyndmyr

2011-09-01, 01:49 PM

Wants to meet new people, nothing wrong with that. If you can't meet people through your hobbies, it's a great way to expand your social circle.

Let's face it, high-level Magic: the Gathering or poker or hedge fund managing do not have a high proportion of women. If he doesn't have the time to pick up a new hobby, then online dating works well.

Why he's using OKCupid rather than a paid site, I don't know.

Heavy dose of geek culture, and rather less scammy nature than other sites. It's not a bad option.

GenericGuy

2011-09-02, 02:39 PM

At least according to this woman

My OkCupid Affair With A World Champion Magic: The Gathering Player

http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2011/08/my-okcupid-affair-with-a-world-champion-magic-the-gathering-player

Earlier this month, I came home drunk and made an OKCupid profile. What the hell, I thought. I’m busy, I’m single, and everybody’s doing it. Sure, I’d heard horror stories, but what was the worst that could happen?

Two weeks into my online dating experiment, OKCupid had broken me down. It was like the online equivalent to hanging out alone in a dark, date-rapey bar. Every time I signed on, I was hit by a barrage of creepy messages. “Dem gurl u so foine, iwud lik veru much for me nd u to be marry n procreate.” Or “your legs do look strong.” So when I saw an IM from a guy saying, “You should go out with me :)” I was relieved. He seemed normal. I gave him my name. “Google away,” I said. Then dinner was ready, and I signed off without remembering to do the same.

We met for a drink later that week. He was thin and tall, dressed in a hedge fund uniform with pale skin and pierced ears. We started talking about normal stuff — family, work, college. I told him my brother was a gamer. And then he casually mentioned that he played Magic: The Gathering when he was younger.

“Actually,” he paused. “I’m the world champion.”

I laughed. Oh that’s a funny joke! I thought. This guy is funny! But the earnest look on his face told me he wasn’t kidding.

I gulped my beer and thought about Magic, that strategic collectible card game involving wizards and spells and other detailed geekery. A long-forgotten fad, like pogs or something. But before I could dig deeper, we had to go. He had bought us tickets for a one-man show based on serial killer Jeffrey Dahmer’s life story. It was not a particularly romantic evening.

The next day I Googled my date and a wealth of information flowed into my browser. A Wikipedia page! Competition videos! Fanboy forums! This guy isn’t just some professional who dabbled in card games at a tender age. He’s widely revered in the game of Magic that he’s been immortalised in his own playing card.

Just like you’re obligated to mention you’re divorced or have a kid in your online profile, shouldn’t someone also be required to disclose any indisputably geeky world championship titles? But maybe it was a long time ago? We met for round two later that week.

At dinner I got straight down to it. Did he still play? “Yes.” Strike one. How often? “I’m preparing for a tournament this weekend.” Strike two. Who did he hang out with? “I’ve met all my best friends through Magic.” Strike three. I smiled and nodded and listened. Eventually I even felt a little bit bad that I didn’t know **** about the game. Here was a guy who had dedicated a good chunk of his life to mastering Magic, on a date with a girl who can barely play Solitaire. This is what happens, I thought, when you lie in your online profile. I was lured on a date thinking I’d met a normal finance guy, only to realise he was a champion dweeb in hedge funder’s clothing.

I later found out that he infiltrated his way into OKCupid dates with at least two other people I sort of know, including one of my co-workers. Mothers, warn your daughters! This could happen to you. You’ll think you’ve found a normal bearded guy with a job, only to end up sharing goat cheese with a world champion of nerds. Maybe I’m an OKCupid ******** for calling it that way. Maybe I’m shallow for not being able to see past his world title. But if everyone stopped lying in their profiles, maybe there also wouldn’t be quite as many OKCupid horror stories to tell.

So what did I learn? Google the **** out of your next online date. Like, hardcore. Also, for all you world famous nerds out there: Don’t go after two Gawker Media employees and not expect to have a post written about you. We live for this kind of stuff.

The nerve of this nerd thinking he’s allowed to date “normal” people:smallmad:. Granted brining up Jeffrey Dahmer in any dating environment isn’t a good strategy:smalltongue:.

pendell

2011-09-02, 02:44 PM

Who says nerds can't date? I'm a nerd. 17 years of marriage and still going strong. .

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Alchemistmerlin

2011-09-02, 02:44 PM

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213485

Beatcha to it :smalltongue:

Blisstake

2011-09-02, 02:49 PM

No, it's not that nerds are undatable; it's that she can't date nerds.

Her loss, really :smalltongue:

Traab

2011-09-02, 02:50 PM

You know, at least he makes a living off doing that, instead of being some guy who spends all day hanging out at the comic book store playing the same 6 people who hang out there over and over again. That world championship? He wins 45k off of that. Each Pro Tour game he wins in the series nets him another 40k. Id imagine as a world champ he likely wins more of the pro tour stuff than he loses, or at least places high enough to get a decent payout.

The dahmer show was a dumb date idea though.

DrizztFan24

2011-09-02, 03:13 PM

We are undateable? Tuesday night wishes to disagree very much so. And what part of his profile lied?

thamolas

2011-09-02, 03:21 PM

How one explains it is the key to making most mild geekdom seem harmless. Being a tournament pro is only mildly geeky. It's like being a published fantasy novelist. If you're successful at it, then you're "successfully self-employed". That's how you spin it for a "normal" person. "It's better than sitting in a cube all day!" is a good strategy. Taking a stranger on a Dahmer date and telling her that all your friends are picked up from your geeky past time? Not at all smooth.

Sounds like the guy needs to make friends outside his job and learn how to date properly. Rule 1: A first date should always be non-threatening and should never be a dinner date. I should know; I'm engaged to an awesome woman - a gorgeous Japanese fashion designer. :smallsmile:

SDF

2011-09-02, 04:22 PM

Well, there is a line. When I found out my girlfriend used to play and collect pokemon cards when she was younger like I did we pulled out our old stuff and played a few games. Then she became obsessed with it again. She spends much of her money on booster packs and talks about it most of the time. It's caused a few fights already and may help to permanently destroy our relationship.

Coidzor

2011-09-02, 04:25 PM

SDF

2011-09-02, 04:28 PM

I bet a tournament player spends way more time and money than her. She isn't in debt or anything because of it. It is somewhere between hobby and obsession, not addiction.

Coidzor

2011-09-02, 05:49 PM

She isn't in debt or anything because of it. It is somewhere between hobby and obsession, not addiction.

Semantics. Also, narrow definition of addiction if your major requirement for it is if it causes one to go into debt.

Steward

2011-09-02, 05:56 PM

We are undateable? Tuesday night wishes to disagree very much so. And what part of his profile lied?

In this context, Magic The Gathering is kind of like having herpes. You really should disclose that early on because you can't really get rid of that...

I mean, I don't understand how this became a Massive Bad Date Story. I remember reading it, expecting him to do something rude or annoying like monopolize the entire conversation with discussions of Magic the Gathering, or showing up in a T-shirt encrusted with dried pizza stains, or something that pushes the story from, "two people who just didn't click" to "Date from Hell".

Coidzor

2011-09-02, 06:00 PM

I mean, I don't understand how this became a Massive Bad Date Story. I remember reading it, expecting him to do something rude or annoying like monopolize the entire conversation with discussions of Magic the Gathering, or showing up in a T-shirt encrusted with dried pizza stains, or something that pushes the story from, "two people who just didn't click" to "Date from Hell".

As a story it really is the opposite of compelling and rather underwhelming to boot. Her story is bad and she should feel bad. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG2KMkQLZmI)

The only reason it exists is because they know geeks read their website and they felt like doing a bit of trolling to increase site traffic, as far as anyone can gather.

SDF

2011-09-02, 06:36 PM

Semantics. Also, narrow definition of addiction if your major requirement for it is if it causes one to go into debt.

That is a completely ridiculous assertion. She spends her discretionary money on cards. It doesn't cause her to go without any necessities. I spend much of my discretionary money on guitar related things because that is my favorite hobby. She doesn't HAVE to have it. Addiction is a disease that needs treatment, and your assertion marginalizes that. It DOES monopolize time I'd rather spend with her and cause relationship strife, but those are very different things.

Fera Tian

2011-09-02, 10:57 PM

I bet a tournament player spends way more time and money than her. She isn't in debt or anything because of it. It is somewhere between hobby and obsession, not addiction.

A tournament player would simply buy the cards he needs online or from a shop. Your girlfriend sounds like she just buys packs for buying packs.

SDF

2011-09-02, 11:12 PM

What's your point?

skywalker

2011-09-04, 01:04 PM

A tournament player would simply buy the cards he needs online or from a shop. Your girlfriend sounds like she just buys packs for buying packs.

These are Pokemon cards, not Magic cards. I don't know about where you live, but where I live there isn't a huge market for Pokemon singles. Also, it can be rather fun to buy packs just to buy packs. If I walk into the card shop and buy *insert expensive Magic single here,* I get my expensive Magic single. But I don't get 14 other cards that might be just as interesting, if I look at them in the right light. Part of the fun (for some people) is in getting interesting, random stuff and seeing what you can make of it.

Addiction, as defined by most professionals, needs to have some sort of negative effect on your life, family, etc. This doesn't sound like an addiction. Possibly compulsive, perhaps obsessive behavior, but not addiction (especially since it's not a chemically addictive substance). It's not really important if she spends most of her disposable income on Pokemon cards. And while SDF might not like it, it's not like the abusive relationship potential that arises from alcoholism.

Ursus the Grim

2011-09-04, 01:11 PM

Also, it can be rather fun to buy packs just to buy packs. If I walk into the card shop and buy *insert expensive Magic single here,* I get my expensive Magic single. But I don't get 14 other cards that might be just as interesting, if I look at them in the right light. Part of the fun (for some people) is in getting interesting, random stuff and seeing what you can make of it.

I agree with this, but this is not normally the way successful tournament players get their cards and build their decks. At least, not in MtG.

Tyndmyr

2011-09-06, 09:06 AM

Most people I know that are heavily into the tournament scene tend to buy a lot of cards. Frequently a box or more when a new set comes out, so they can rapidly familiarize themselves with the block.

Sure, they finish out decks with singles as necessary, but tourney players do buy a lot of packs. Hell, if you play draft, you buy a lot of packs as a necessary part of playing.

skywalker

2011-09-06, 11:30 PM

Sure, they finish out decks with singles as necessary, but tourney players do buy a lot of packs. Hell, if you play draft, you buy a lot of packs as a necessary part of playing.

That's different. I'm definitely not addicted to drafting. Definitely.

mangosta71

2011-09-19, 02:29 PM

I thought that this (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22786_To_My_Someday_Daughter.html) was an interesting reaction to the whole spectacle.

Even moreso when I saw the reactions here.

Ranger Mattos

2011-09-19, 07:13 PM

So let me get this straight:

She - a writer for a geeky tech blog - breaks up with him for being too geeky, despite the fact that he's kind and funny and handsome and rich and successful?

What the hell?

Mutant Sheep

2011-09-19, 08:10 PM

Arminius

2011-09-19, 10:14 PM

I think it is probably for the best. If she is thick enough to dislike someone for having a nerdy hobby, the relationship will have only ended in heartbreak and misery for both of them. She isn't dating someone she has little in common with, and due to the fiasco, Finkel has "cute nerdy girls" trying to get in touch with him, ie girls who would actually appreciate dating someone good at Magic the Gathering. I'm chalking this up as a win for Finkel and the cute nerdy girls.

Serpentine

2011-09-19, 11:18 PM

I thought that this (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22786_To_My_Someday_Daughter.html) was an interesting reaction to the whole spectacle.

Even moreso when I saw the reactions here.I'm ambivalent about that article. On the one hand, I think he's far too forgiving of the original blog piece. It was offensiveness layered on condescension, dismissiveness and more offensiveness, and I don't think it deserves to be defended.
On the other hand... I don't disagree with anything else he said (except maybe his repeated hatred of "gendered insults"... Dammit, they're descriptive!), and I think he has some really great insights and observations.
As a critique of the reader response to the article, I think it's great. As a defense of the article, I think it's misguided. Fortunately, the emphasis is on the former, not the latter.

Coidzor

2011-09-19, 11:38 PM

Heliomance

2011-09-20, 01:41 AM

Coidzor

2011-09-20, 01:48 AM

Stop and think about that for a moment. Aside from there being fewer nerdy girls than nerdy guys, how is that any different from the hordes of romantically hopeless guys mooning over, say, Felicia Day?

Aside from the bit where it's suggested that they are actually propositioning him directly, there's always the sheer mass of NSFW usage of the fantasies involving Felicia Day as compared to this fellow.

I'm sure there's more, but those seem the most fundamental.

Heliomance

2011-09-20, 02:34 AM

I imagine a lot of those girls have NSFW things in mind. If it was guys propositioning a girl, it would be creepy. Why is it any different because it's girls propositioning a guy?

Killer Angel

2011-09-20, 05:24 AM

I thought that this (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22786_To_My_Someday_Daughter.html) was an interesting reaction to the whole spectacle.

I don't agree with everything in the article, but that's very interesting, 'specially the 7th point.

Feytalist

2011-09-20, 05:39 AM

I thought that this (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22786_To_My_Someday_Daughter.html) was an interesting reaction to the whole spectacle.

Even moreso when I saw the reactions here.

It's an interesting article. Well-written, too. It only touches lightly on the issue at hand, and only addresses one side of the argument, but is a good read nonetheless.

Form

2011-09-20, 08:13 AM

I thought that this (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22786_To_My_Someday_Daughter.html) was an interesting reaction to the whole spectacle.

Even moreso when I saw the reactions here.

An interesting read. He goes a bit too far with some of his conclusions regarding gamers and nerds, but overall I'd say he has some good points and that the gamer/nerd community could do with some introspection.

I don't agree with his defense of Alyssa's article either. That one was judgemental and mean-spirited, but Alyssa's article is not the point of this one.

Sipex

2011-09-20, 10:22 AM

I'm still reading it, up to point #8. It's very insightful but there are parts I disagree on.

I agree that defense of Alyssa's article goes to far. Much of my distaste for the article comes from how mean spirited it was, not how she rejected a gamer...although the comparison to juggalos grants me a bit of insight to how I should treat them better.

I don't agree with a lot of the negative responses to the article though. He hits the nail on the head when he outlines the sexist and shallow responses to the article. That's the sect of gamer rage I (and I'm sure others) just try to ignore and disassociate ourselves from.

One article he compares hers to falls short as well. The one written in 2003 where he outlines his own boorish response. I see the similarities in responses but the base articles were nothing alike. The tone of the 2003 article was more analytical and thoughtful, examining each piece and giving calm, insightful and non-emotionally invested responses. Alyssa's article, again, feels very cruel. As Geordie outlines we could 'hear her laugh reverberating across the internet'.

It almost feels as though he's giving her too much leeway on her article simply because she's a woman writing in the gaming industry. That said, he does make good points. Alyssa does have the right to choose who she wants to date based on interests but I feel she crossed the line posting an article that felt akin to "I had this date with a NERD. Can you believe it? A NERD?! Are they even allowed to date?" which I feel may be the feeling many of the other gamers/nerds/geeks/whatever feel but fail to articulate.

Arminius

2011-09-20, 11:07 AM

Stop and think about that for a moment. Aside from there being fewer nerdy girls than nerdy guys, how is that any different from the hordes of romantically hopeless guys mooning over, say, Felicia Day?
This is a danger inherent to celebrities of any kind. There is only one of them and a lot more people who like them. That said, celebrities are people too, I don't see why they shouldn't try to find someone to love. It is also understood that only a handful of those girls will at best be getting a response. Nothing is guaranteed, but maybe something good will come out of it for one of them, and that is better than no chance at all. I think that becoming obsessive and untethered to reality is unhealthy, regardless of what sex you are. If you don't feel you can live without a total stranger, you have a problem.

I imagine a lot of those girls have NSFW things in mind. If it was guys propositioning a girl, it would be creepy. Why is it any different because it's girls propositioning a guy?
Because as a society we have a host of emotional baggage going back to before recorded history. As long as one takes the word "no" at face value, I don't see why it should be inherently creepy either way.

Serpentine

2011-09-20, 11:15 AM

Felicia Day, as far as I'm aware, hasn't had someone deliberately attempt to publically humiliate her over the internet over one of her hobbies, and isn't the sort of person that people might think would need reassurance that she's attractive and desirable.
It's not a sex thing, as far as I'm concerned (and if people behave as creepily towards the Magic guy as many people do at celebrities like Felicia Day, it'll still be just as creepy - just less likely). A better question might be "why do we think a person like this guy needs reassurance that he's attractive and desirable?"

Tebryn

2011-09-20, 06:45 PM

I'm still reading it, up to point #8. It's very insightful but there are parts I disagree on.

I agree that defense of Alyssa's article goes to far. Much of my distaste for the article comes from how mean spirited it was, not how she rejected a gamer...although the comparison to juggalos grants me a bit of insight to how I should treat them better.

I feel like I should come in on this part here because everyone else has said what I'd say on the article except for this bit. He likens Juggalo's to "Gamers" which I find to be like comparing apples to hand grenades. One cannot even get a good working definition of what a Gamer is, it varies from one person to individual groups across the board. Gamers have no rhetoric, no guiding philosophy in which they can agree on other than "games" but even then, what constitutes a game? The Juggalo community on the other hand...is none of those things. They espouse a hateful philosophy and have a central guiding dogma that makes them quite a bit different than a gamer. Disliking a Juggalo because they like ICP or because they're fond of face make up is wrong but not wanting to date someone who believes gang violence is the right way to live...perhaps not a bad way to make a pool of good dating stock.

Tebryn

2011-09-20, 06:51 PM

I'm still reading it, up to point #8. It's very insightful but there are parts I disagree on.

I agree that defense of Alyssa's article goes to far. Much of my distaste for the article comes from how mean spirited it was, not how she rejected a gamer...although the comparison to juggalos grants me a bit of insight to how I should treat them better.

I feel like I should come in on this part here because everyone else has said what I'd say on the article except for this bit. He likens Juggalo's to "Gamers" which I find to be like comparing apples to hand grenades. One cannot even get a good working definition of what a Gamer is, it varies from one person to individual groups across the board. Gamers have no rhetoric, no guiding philosophy in which they can agree on other than "games" but even then, what constitutes a game? The Juggalo community on the other hand...is none of those things. They espouse a hateful philosophy and have a central guiding dogma that makes them quite a bit different than a gamer. Disliking a Juggalo because they like ICP or because they're fond of face make up is wrong but not wanting to date someone who believes gang violence is the right way to live...perhaps not a bad way to make a pool of good dating stock.

Serpentine

2011-09-20, 09:27 PM

I feel like I should come in on this part here because everyone else has said what I'd say on the article except for this bit. He likens Juggalo's to "Gamers" which I find to be like comparing apples to hand grenades. One cannot even get a good working definition of what a Gamer is, it varies from one person to individual groups across the board. Gamers have no rhetoric, no guiding philosophy in which they can agree on other than "games" but even then, what constitutes a game? The Juggalo community on the other hand...is none of those things. They espouse a hateful philosophy and have a central guiding dogma that makes them quite a bit different than a gamer. Disliking a Juggalo because they like ICP or because they're fond of face make up is wrong but not wanting to date someone who believes gang violence is the right way to live...perhaps not a bad way to make a pool of good dating stock.I'm not a fan of Juggaloism, but I have had a slightly disturbing amount of contact with it lately, and I'm pretty positive that you're grossly misrepresenting them. Here's my evidence:

1. There are Juggalo cooking shows. They contain a crap-load of swearing, but no non-food related violence.

2. There is a Christian church based on the philosophy of Juggalos, and it's a totally reasonable church from what little I saw about it. It's all about fellowship, belonging, mutual support and communicating with young people in language they'll actually listen to.

3. I once listened to a 3-way argument over Juggalos. Person #1 said Juggalos were nothing but "ICP fans". Person #2 said Juggaloism is a state of mind and a philosophy of life, a devotion to self-expression and individuality while having the fellowship and support of your fellow Juggalos, and "we're all Juggalos". Person #3 was somewhere in-between; something like Juggalos are a legitimate and surprisingly complex subculture that gives people a sense of belonging and individuality, that consists of ICP fans.

4. My Boy likes ICP (and *le sigh* got me to write down "Juggalo" as his religion on the census...), and thinks Juggalos are great. He says they're about community, belonging and have a big problem with anything that assaults those like racism, domestic abuse and the like.

So yeah. I think your portrayal of Juggalos is about as misrepresentative as, say, "gamers are all fat, spotty nerds with no social skills lurking in their parents' basements".

Tebryn

2011-09-20, 09:34 PM

While that's nice and all, they're classified as a Gang due to violent activity in various states in the United States. Single people can be great, small groups to. But when your group espouses hateful rhetoric as a whole that's a red flag. I didn't say it invalidated them from dating, merely that it's not a bad idea to make sure you're not getting involved with people like that.

Serpentine

2011-09-20, 09:43 PM

I'd like evidence for that, first of all. Secondly, even if it is classified as a gang in the US... well, the US does a lot of silly things, but also that doesn't mean that every person who identifies as a Juggalo is a rabidly violent gang-member, any more than every person who identifies as a nerd cosplays as an anime girl in an inappropriately skimpy outfit at every convention they can get to. You are grossly misrepresenting a massive group of people, and that's that.
edit: My Boy, who keeps track of Juggalo stuff, point-blank refutes your claim that they "espouse hatred" and the like, and in fact they do the opposite. He was a huge fan of ICP in high school. He says that the only violence they rapped about was so extreme it was cartoony, and was almost always against racist and wife-beaters and the like - "bad guys", basically, and then there's the whole "it turns out they're actually a religious band" thing. They consider themselves a family and stuff, and they "listen to horror-themed music".

Also, you're just repeating the point of the article. Which was, in part, that it's okay for people to cross people off their list of potential daters for reasons such as interests, and reframed that in a context we, as geeks, will relate to: Juggalos - that is, "it's as okay for "normals" to not want to date nerds as it is for nerds to not want to date Juggalos".

THAC0

2011-09-20, 11:08 PM

I... have never heard of a juggalo before and now I am immensely confused. :smallconfused:

Arminius

2011-09-20, 11:24 PM

I... have never heard of a juggalo before and now I am immensely confused. :smallconfused:
They are fans of a duo of rappers called Insane Clown Posse. The duo is noted for being aggressively ignorant, just google "magnets how do they work".

Serpentine

2011-09-21, 01:36 AM

They fans of a duo of rappers called Insane Clown Posse. The duo is noted for being aggressively ignorant, just google "magnets how do they work".Uuuuh... Worth noting that that line comes from a song they wrote, after they "came out" as a Christian band, about how wonderful and miraculous everything is.
If you're taking it literally that they don't know how magnets work, that they think unicorns were around and they think rainbows are miracles, you might be taking them a bit too seriously.

factotum

2011-09-21, 01:44 AM

you might be taking them a bit too seriously.

And people who treat them as religious leaders AREN'T taking them a bit too seriously? :smalltongue:

Serpentine

2011-09-21, 01:46 AM

And people who treat them as religious leaders AREN'T taking them a bit too seriously? :smalltongue:Actually... Well, I can't really go into detail about them here. But go look up that Juggalo church. It seemed to be more, not so much that ICP are "religious leaders", as... this particular religious leader found them and their messages to be a useful way to bring young people to Christianity.

The Succubus

2011-09-21, 04:12 AM

Remind me how we got from the nuances of dating Magic players to the finer points of rapper-based churches?

Feytalist

2011-09-21, 04:26 AM

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/sm/custom/iobqtirt.jpeg

It was that Starcitygames article, actually.

I actually spent a very informative morning on the internet regarding the clown stuff. I've come to the conclusion that people are insane.

Arminius

2011-09-21, 09:43 AM

Uuuuh... Worth noting that that line comes from a song they wrote, after they "came out" as a Christian band, about how wonderful and miraculous everything is.
If you're taking it literally that they don't know how magnets work, that they think unicorns were around and they think rainbows are miracles, you might be taking them a bit too seriously.
I don't give a toss when the song came out. I don't generally have high expectations for recording artists anyways, but that song is impressively inane. There is nothing wrong with taking pleasure in the beauty and scale of the universe, nor is there anything inherently wrong in not knowing how magnets work. What is wrong however, is asking how magnets work, and then telling the people who actually know how magnets work that they are a pack of liars and chalking it up to "miracles". Being Christian is not an excuse to turn off your brain. I sincerely hope they aren't as stupid as that song makes them sound, but the whole "Yay Ignorance!" vibe it gives off still rubs me the wrong way.

Sipex

2011-09-21, 09:46 AM

Serpentine

2011-09-21, 09:52 AM

I don't give a toss when the song came out. I don't generally have high expectations for recording artists anyways, but that song is impressively inane. There is nothing wrong with taking pleasure in the beauty and scale of the universe, nor is there anything inherently wrong in not knowing how magnets work. What is wrong however, is asking how magnets work, and then telling the people who actually know how magnets work that they are a pack of liars and chalking it up to "miracles". Being Christian is not an excuse to turn off your brain. I sincerely hope they aren't as stupid as that song makes them sound, but the whole "Yay Ignorance!" vibe it gives off still rubs me the wrong way.1. ICP writes an absurd fluffy out-of-character song about how wonderful and miraculous the world is that includes a throw-away line about wondering how magnets work but not wanting to find out the scientific explanation because omg rainbows!
2. Clearly ICP and everyone who enjoys their music and philosophy and the community built up around them hate scientific knowledge because they're brainless Christians.
3. Oh, and also, they're all murderous gang members.
4. Therefore, it's totally not okay to compare not wanting to date Juggalos with not wanting to date geeks because there's legitimate reasons to avoid Juggalos but none to avoid geeks or something.

Whut?

Arminius

2011-09-21, 09:55 AM

Well, point is the two groups have a lot in common. Turns out Juggalos just have a bad rep, akin to the one geeks have (although we're farther along in existing and abolishing said bad rep so we're more widely accepted).

Point is, do you really have a reason to dislike a whole group of people or are you doing it because the internet says to do so?
My beef is with the duo. I don't have anything against the fans, though I do think they have bad taste in music. To a degree, you can make generalizations about any group, but it is dangerous to just do that and let it cloud your understanding of an individual. People are more than their group membership, when people forget that, bad things happen.

Serpentine

2011-09-21, 09:58 AM

My beef is with the duo. I don't have anything against the fans, though I do think they have bad taste in music.That's funny, because you appear to have been saying exactly that you do have something against the fans, not just the music. For starters, the original article was specifically about the fans, NOT the music, and for seconds:

I feel like I should come in on this part here because everyone else has said what I'd say on the article except for this bit. He likens Juggalo's to "Gamers" which I find to be like comparing apples to hand grenades. One cannot even get a good working definition of what a Gamer is, it varies from one person to individual groups across the board. Gamers have no rhetoric, no guiding philosophy in which they can agree on other than "games" but even then, what constitutes a game? The Juggalo community on the other hand...is none of those things. They espouse a hateful philosophy and have a central guiding dogma that makes them quite a bit different than a gamer. Disliking a Juggalo because they like ICP or because they're fond of face make up is wrong but not wanting to date someone who believes gang violence is the right way to live...perhaps not a bad way to make a pool of good dating stock.Not much discussion about the music there.

edit: Whoops, appears I've conflated two posters there. Gotta reread to get what point exactly you're trying to make...

edit mk 2: Ah, I see. You have a severe moral objection to ICP because they wrote a dumb song that was disparaging towards scientists.
...
Uh huh. Okay, that's fine I guess - if giving the band way too much credit - but not really relevant to the thread, and still misrepresentative of the fans and - I presume, I don't really know - ICP themselves. I mean, if you assume they're serious when they wrote a silly song about how they don't want to know the scientific explanations for things, you'd presumably report them to the police after listening to the song where they sing about murdering a cheating girlfriend...

Arminius

2011-09-21, 10:00 AM

1. ICP writes an absurd fluffy out-of-character song about how wonderful and miraculous the world is that includes a throw-away line about wondering how magnets work but not wanting to find out the scientific explanation because omg rainbows!
Ok, lets look at the lyrics:

magnets, how do they work?
And I don't wanna talk to a scientist
Y'all mother******* lying, and getting me pissed

That does not sound like they are distracted by rainbows to me.

2. Clearly ICP and everyone who enjoys their music and philosophy and the community built up around them hate scientific knowledge because they're brainless Christians.
3. Oh, and also, they're all murderous gang members.
4. Therefore, it's totally not okay to compare not wanting to date Juggalos with not wanting to date geeks because there's legitimate reasons to avoid Juggalos but none to avoid geeks or something.
Whut?
When exactly did I say any of that?

Serpentine

2011-09-21, 10:03 AM

Sipex

2011-09-21, 10:09 AM

I only know the facts about said song which have been presented here but one should always keep in mind that songs are hardly 100% literal and transparent.

Without full interpretation from the artist you can only make assumptions but 'Openly denying science after being told' could also be interpreted as 'We shouldn't always be so obsessed with finding the cause for things and just enjoy them as they are.'

I mean, I don't even like the music and that's kind of what I pulled from that. ICP would have to give their translation however.

Arminius

2011-09-21, 11:35 AM

See my edit, above.

Do you go through every song you listen to, searching for every line that doesn't support scientific theory or that is otherwise morally objectional? :smallconfused: It just seems really weird to me that you'd take this much offense over two lines from Insane Freaking Clown Posse of all bands.
No I don't, and as mentioned previously, I don't expect a great deal from artists. I understand poetic license and that sometimes reality gets in the way of a good story. Frankly, I like fantasy, and as far as silliness goes, one of my favorite songs is called "Salad of Doom". So no, I am not some dour killjoy, nor am I particularly put out by this song, my mental process is more along the lines of this:

Hears song. -> Thinks ICP are morons. -> Doesn't listen to their music.

It is just someone asked who they are and what they are known for. I supplied the information I knew about them. The stupidity of the song doesn't keep me up at night, and I've not met a Juggalo in person so I have refrained from making any assessment about them as a group other than that they have(in my subjective opinion) bad taste in music. You are the one who took offense to it.

mangosta71

2011-09-21, 02:43 PM

The bit about Juggalos and gang-violence is related to a large group of them going to a concert and bombarding the singer onstage with bottles etc. to the point that she ran bleeding to her trailer, which they then vandalized with her inside. I first heard about it some time ago because one of my FB friends (whom I promptly removed) linked the story and was cheering them on with "the dumb ***** deserved it!"

Anyway, back onto the topic of the article, yes, Alyssa should not have written it in the first place (or at least not been so flagrantly offensive). Sure, she didn't give her reasons why his pursuit of the game was a dealbreaker for her, but is she any more shallow for rejecting him on that basis than the people saying "he's rich and handsome, and that's that matters"? Geordie hinted at a reason that a lot of "normal" people don't want to get involved with gamers - they're afraid of being second to a game. If any of you has ever been in a relationship to which you were more committed than your partner, you should sympathize because you know exactly how painful it is.

I do not defend her, but neither do I condemn her.

skywalker

2011-09-21, 03:24 PM

I don't give a toss when the song came out.

Truly, this does not appear to be hypocrisy when paired with your statement condemning "being aggressively ignorant." Not in the slightest.

I don't even like ICP. I think most of their songs suck, and a lot of the imagery I'm not interested in being exposed to. But you're oversimplifying them.

I thought that this (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/22786_To_My_Someday_Daughter.html) was an interesting reaction to the whole spectacle.

Even moreso when I saw the reactions here.

I've read about half of it. Maybe Geordie's right. Maybe we're being too hard on her.

But just because gamers are butt-hurt sexists doesn't mean she's not what she's been called. I think Geordie fails to understand (read: is aggressively ignorant of) the context of most of the shallow insults and references to Jon's money. I at least am not criticizing her for shallow reasons because I as a gamer think all women are shallow. I am criticizing her for shallow reasons because she has taken every opportunity to portray herself as precisely the type of shallow, hipster beyotch "the community" has believed her to be. In other words, don't be surprised that people are calling you "slut" after you put an "A" on your chest and claim to sleep with guys for gift card money. She caricaturized herself in the original article.

Does Geordie really think we wouldn't have used similarly gender-charged insults to attack a guy who did the same thing?

EDIT: Also, the whole article smacks of "wise older brother." Of course the primary conceit is a letter to an unborn daughter, but the true message here is for the guys he's condemning: "Look at all you 20-something losers. If only you were as old and experienced as me, and knew what I knew..." I wonder what Geordie will be saying about this article when he's 40? "Man, I used to suffer from 'Nice Guy Syndrome.' When you losers grow out of that, surely you'll agree with me." Has Geordie really matured? Certainly he has found a mate and perhaps even treats her better than a "Nice Guy" would. But all I see is a man who's replaced one misguided set of behaviors with a different set of behaviors. He still sees a group "less" than him, but instead of "Alpha Male douchebag" it's "Nice Guy geeks, if only they could be as enlightened as me."

Honestly, the more I read, the more I want to punch this guy in the face. Yes, Geordie, a lot of gamers could use an attitude adjustment in this realm. No, just because you're expressing an alternate viewpoint doesn't mean you couldn't use one too.

EDIT, PART 2:
It's okay to blame her less than you do the boys who were mean. As you grow, I'll be proud of you if you tend to assign blame to power and tend to forgive the oppressed.

Seriously dude? Are you sure you ever grew out of being a "nice guy" at all? Or did you just stop whining, and spruce it up with some Malcolm X quotes?

Giving women more benefit of the doubt is definitely not sexist, and is totally not the wrong way to go about feminism at all.

Arminius

2011-09-21, 08:15 PM

Truly, this does not appear to be hypocrisy when paired with your statement condemning "being aggressively ignorant." Not in the slightest.

I don't even like ICP. I think most of their songs suck, and a lot of the imagery I'm not interested in being exposed to. But you're oversimplifying them.
So, does it matter whether or not the song came out before or after they revealed themselves as Christian? If so, why? Are you implying that Christians are stupid, so we shouldn't be surprised at it?

Syka

2011-09-21, 11:36 PM

Other Gizmodo employees are actively defending her, going so far as to say that they "totally agree about Magic, it is like Larping, D&D, or Pokemon: It is just TOO nerdy."

I guess a good captain goes down with his ship, or something.

Stay classy, gawker media group.

People are allowed to feel that way. What you shouldn't do is disparage them on the basis of their hobby. Saying they don't match up with you is one thing, outright mocking them is another. And, frankly, insulting to those of us (like myself) who LIKE that stuff.

For the record, this is what Jon Finkel looks like.
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/images/article/060512-finkel.jpg
So he's a good looking guy who's smart, has money, and is among the best in the world at what he does.

As a male, I can safely say that this man is a catch.

Indeed. Indeed. The three guys I've dated (one casual, two serious and long term) have all be quite good looking. One dressed very much like a typical metalhead/geek. One was more mainstream, surfer type and unless you knew him you'd have no idea he was such a humongous geek. Current Boy is...well, we feed off of our geeky tendencies and it is generally agreed he is quite handsome.

You know the guy should chalk it up as a victory that he even got a second date with this gal after surprising her with tickets to a show about serial killer/sex offender/necrophiliac/cannibal Jeffrey Dahmer's life story on their first date. Sorry but... really? :smallconfused:

Oh my god I would love that! Then again, the aforementioned surfer type guy and I went to see Borat for our second date and Oz and I compared favorite shows (Firefly for me, Farscape for him).

As for Magic, Oz got me in to that, kinda. Since we've been dating he's bought a few more packs and maybe 40$ or so worth of singles*. One Christmas we got each other a specific Planeswalker (I got Lilliana Vess, I don't remember what I got him). We actually broke out our decks tonight to play and refresh ourselves for tomorrow night. When we are meeting up with some of his coworkers (all of us are mid-twenties) to play some Magic after work. :smallbiggrin:

He also got his first set of dice today, at my behest, and we should be running either a 3.5 or Serenity game. I was way to excited about that. x.x

Basically, my point is it's OK for Magic to be a dealbreaker. But for God's sake, some of us LIKE guys who are super nerdy like that! Disparaging a guy just because he didn't divulge one of (what is now) his hobbies is just silly, although not dating any more is not.

*He hasn't bought any in a while, and at least half of that was for my black/blue deck. That I adore. He and his coworkers have all agreed they aren't buying any more Magic cards, though, due to costs...although they totally intend to raid each others collections.

EDIT: After reading that long article, and a couple others that were linked I have a couple thoughts as to why I don't mind Oz's gaming (and he is actually a much bigger gamer than I...the only console game I'm good at is Borderlands, and Elder Scrolls is really the only computer game I do).

Mostly it's I know I come first. I've never been ignored for his games, although I will often times end up reading or something while he games (which I like to do). It extends to his filmmaking, which is analogous to the guys that want to be Pro players. I want him to follow his dream, but if we can't make it on my income alone I fully expect him to get a job. Even one he hates. And not quit it just because they can't schedule him a weekend off for a shoot without another job lined up.

Heck, one of his directors needed us to do something on short notice or he'd be out a few thousand dollars. On our first date night in weeks. First thing Oz did was ask me before saying yes. I did say yes, but I appreciated that he thought of how it would affect me.

I can see why people wouldn't want to get involved with a Pro player. Just like I can see why someone wouldn't want to be with a filmmaker, or restauranteur (them people work haaard), or any other very involving profession.

I don't see denigrating everyone involved in that activity, from professionals to hobbyists. Which is what that article did.

Bhu

2011-09-22, 01:27 AM

I Dated an Internet Troll

Cost 5 black

Instant

Shuffle your hand into your Library in shame unless you have won a championship at any point in your past (in which case you may draw 3 cards). For the rest of the game your opponent wears a sign that says "I have been a fool on the internet. Abuse me as you see fit." The game is temporarily paused whenever the opponent is being abused and this does not count towards possible time limits being enforced at the event.

Feytalist

2011-09-22, 01:59 AM

Serpentine

2011-09-22, 03:56 AM

I do not defend her, but neither do I condemn her.It's okay to have something silly or weird or superficial that instantly stops you from being interested in someone. In fact, I would be very surprised if not everyone has at least one - I expect that anyone who claims not to is lying, hasn't thought about it, has deluded themselves that it's not really silly or weird or superficial, or just hasn't had it come up yet. So yeah, it's totally fine that someone being into a card game is a deal-breaker for her.
It is absolutely not totally fine to then attempt to publically humiliate the deal-broken person in a scathing and - to repeat - very public attack on every single one of the thousands of people who happen to share that interest, or similar ones.

So yeah, I do condemn her. Not for having that opinion, but for broadcasting it in such a deeply offensive and hypocritical way.

Killer Angel

2011-09-22, 06:20 AM

So yeah, I do condemn her. Not for having that opinion, but for broadcasting it in such a deeply offensive and hypocritical way.

I suppose that, anyway, condemning her is one thing, but insulting and mocking her is a different matter: insults are always insults, no matter who was the first provoker.

Sipex

2011-09-22, 08:20 AM

Some good points here.

@Skywalker: Your take on Geordie's article is interesting and I find myself agreeing in a lot of places. I mean, let's not kid ourselves, no matter how much Geordie wrote this for his possible future daughter, he definitely wrote it for all the 20 something nerds out there just as much.

It actually feels kind of like a low blow too. Before anyone said anything against the article I felt I couldn't criticize it because of the context. I mean, who criticizes a father's advice to his little girl (even if it is publicly posted and targetted at your group of people)? You must be some sort of sexist nerdraging monster for that to happen!
This is further compounded by the whole 'burning bridges' spiel at the beginning which basically tells the reader 'Anyone who disagrees with this article is wrong and you're better off not listening to their hateful hateful words.'
I don't know if this was intentional on Geordie's behalf but it really questions my faith in his opinion at all now which is unfortunate because I also feel he makes some good points.

edit: Let's also not kid ourselves, but he wants support on his opinions. To further compound this one of the most offensive parts of the article goes on about how female gamers reacted to this debacle. He compared it akin to "Mastah's house is burnin!" and essentially goes on to discredit any woman who disagrees with his opinion as well as he essentially genericizes them into the hole of "You don't have your own opinion if you disagree, you're just saying those things to make other gamers happy."

The more I re-read and think about his article the less I like it. I wonder what the true feeling behind it is? If I'm reading far too much into it or not?

Grim Reader

2011-09-22, 12:51 PM

I actually took the time to go through it and list the characteristics Tait ascribes to gamers:

…knuckle-dragging apes…gamers and their terrible attitudes towards you...probably the least-valuable intelligence out there—the smirking, arrogant synaptic pep…an entire race of squanderers, of keen minds turned to inert and even flagellatory ends…The tech industry is among the most [sexist] in America...male keyboard warriors, many with the welts of social ostracization still open and weeping upon their hairy backs…Gamers are always trying to “Next Level” things and fancy themselves the Smartest Boys Club in the World. Pick a societal stricture that might actually prevent philandering and a gamer will give you a reason that he can just shrug it off…boys in her industry treat girls poorly and take them for granted…the subway-groping attentions of the otaku…all manner of ignorance, stereotyping, and hate from male gamers…Gamers are unable to accept that [Alyssa Bereznak was within her rights]… in the romantic arena, male gamers still act like a cringing minority…scornful, entitled males….fancying themselves unappreciated, intelligent, and more worthy than other males of female attention…their fetishistic gamer culture…[gaming is] an obsession…in their soggy underdrawers….they rot in their basements…[a woman who dates a gamer] don't have to accept his guilt-tripping and the cruelty of his friends, all of whom play, all of whom resent you for the loss of their raiding buddy or playtest partner. You don't have to accept his culture and that culture's ignorance to your needs, nor do you have to subject yourself to their biases….[if you’re a gamer] you voided a black pool of nihilism down your own unsteady leg at age 16, and you've been floundering in it ever since….

He does not qualify this with any phrases such as "some", "a minority", or "a subset". Sometimes he qualifies it as applying only to male gamer, one of the characteristics are only posessed by "many" gamers and he uses "he" through it, but otherwise, it applies to everyone. And as written, a lot of that is a blast at female gamers too. Once, he stresses that this applies to ALL gamers "Every woman who has ever dated a gamer has some version of this story."

This is a pretty severe condemnation of all gamers, whether male or female, and considering that he went into some detail on his own geek credentials and addressed it to future daughter who is a geek, a bit...off.

Basically, it is a massive straw man, built around the false premise that the negative response to Alyssa Bereznak was only from male gamers. If the point that the negative response came from males and females, gamers and non-gamers, his whole torrent of wrath against gamers starts to fall apart.

This is so threatening to Tait that he calls women who condemned Alyssa Bereznak "Uncle Toms" and "House Negroes looking for a warm corner in massahs attick" (!) Think about that for a moment.

Tait could have written something like:

"Ok, she did a bad thing, and she acted in an abusive way we thought we left behind in high school. But Jesus! enough is enough. Shes had to disappear of the internet leave her apartment and cancel her phone. This is a human being folks! She put it out in public and had to expect some negative response to that, and I am glad to see that the male and female members of the community have each others back. But some of this response have been way over the top, not only in volume but its also been very hostile to women. And I want to tell you something about that and how I once reacted in the same way..." Say the piece...then finish with a compliment.

That is a management technique for making people take in constructive critique. Compliment-critique-compliment. And from experience it is rather effective. Now I am neither a writer nor a native speaker of your language so I'm pretty sure Tait who is both could put it a lot better. Instead he chose an insult-lecture format that seems calculated to repel the very people who most need to read this.

But what the hell do I know? Apparently I voided a black pool of nihilism down my own unsteady leg at age 16, and you've been floundering in it ever since. According to Geordie Tait.

The whole gamers vs. women meme it carries seems...off to me.

Grim Reader

2011-09-22, 12:52 PM

I actually took the time to go through it and list the characteristics Tait ascribes to gamers:

…knuckle-dragging apes…gamers and their terrible attitudes towards you...probably the least-valuable intelligence out there—the smirking, arrogant synaptic pep…an entire race of squanderers, of keen minds turned to inert and even flagellatory ends…The tech industry is among the most [sexist] in America...male keyboard warriors, many with the welts of social ostracization still open and weeping upon their hairy backs…Gamers are always trying to “Next Level” things and fancy themselves the Smartest Boys Club in the World. Pick a societal stricture that might actually prevent philandering and a gamer will give you a reason that he can just shrug it off…boys in her industry treat girls poorly and take them for granted…the subway-groping attentions of the otaku…all manner of ignorance, stereotyping, and hate from male gamers…Gamers are unable to accept that [Alyssa Bereznak was within her rights]… in the romantic arena, male gamers still act like a cringing minority…scornful, entitled males….fancying themselves unappreciated, intelligent, and more worthy than other males of female attention…their fetishistic gamer culture…[gaming is] an obsession…in their soggy underdrawers….they rot in their basements…[a woman who dates a gamer] don't have to accept his guilt-tripping and the cruelty of his friends, all of whom play, all of whom resent you for the loss of their raiding buddy or playtest partner. You don't have to accept his culture and that culture's ignorance to your needs, nor do you have to subject yourself to their biases….[if you’re a gamer] you voided a black pool of nihilism down your own unsteady leg at age 16, and you've been floundering in it ever since….

He does not qualify this with any phrases such as "some", "a minority", or "a subset". Sometimes he qualifies it as applying only to male gamer, one of the characteristics are only posessed by "many" gamers and he uses "he" through it, but otherwise, it applies to everyone. And as written, a lot of that is a blast at female gamers too. Once, he stresses that this applies to ALL gamers "Every woman who has ever dated a gamer has some version of this story."

This is a pretty severe condemnation of all gamers, whether male or female, and considering that he went into some detail on his own geek credentials and addressed it to future daughter who is a geek, a bit...off.

Basically, it is a massive straw man, built around the false premise that the negative response to Alyssa Bereznak was only from male gamers. If the point that the negative response came from males and females, gamers and non-gamers, his whole torrent of wrath against gamers starts to fall apart.

This is so threatening to Tait that he calls women who condemned Alyssa Bereznak "Uncle Toms" and "House Negroes looking for a warm corner in massahs attick" (!) Think about that for a moment.

Tait could have written something like:

"Ok, she did a bad thing, and she acted in an abusive way we thought we left behind in high school. But Jesus! enough is enough. Shes had to disappear of the internet leave her apartment and cancel her phone. This is a human being folks! She put it out in public and had to expect some negative response to that, and I am glad to see that the male and female members of the community have each others back. But some of this response have been way over the top, not only in volume but its also been very hostile to women. And I want to tell you something about that and how I once reacted in the same way..." Say the piece...then finish with a compliment.

That is a management technique for making people take in constructive critique. Compliment-critique-compliment. And from experience it is rather effective. Now I am neither a writer nor a native speaker of your language so I'm pretty sure Tait who is both could put it a lot better. Instead he chose an insult-lecture format that seems calculated to repel the very people who most need to read this.

But what the hell do I know? Apparently I voided a black pool of nihilism down my own unsteady leg at age 16, and have been floundering in it ever since. According to Geordie Tait.

The whole gamers vs. women meme it carries seems...off to me.

Sipex

2011-09-22, 12:59 PM

...

Wow, I hadn't even noticed. It was such a big article to read through which hid just how much he generalised.

Of course, each time it came up I just thought "Oh well, that's not me so it's okay." but really, it's not. He's just helping paint the negative image of the gamer/geek/whatever while at the same time...

My head hurts.

Great analysis though.

Coidzor

2011-09-22, 07:26 PM

One dressed very much like a typical metalhead/geek.

So not only is there a typical geek look, but it also overlaps and blends with the typical metalhead look? :smallconfused: :smalleek:

I guess that's the reason why people don't take me seriously as a geek, just don't dress to meet their expectations.

@Skywalker: Your take on Geordie's article is interesting and I find myself agreeing in a lot of places. I mean, let's not kid ourselves, no matter how much Geordie wrote this for his possible future daughter, he definitely wrote it for all the 20 something nerds out there just as much.

More so and he wanted to patronize us with the claim that it was for a future daughter. No one ever actually publishes that kind of thing and should be taken at face value for it without an overwhelming amount of evidence about their character such that there's no possibility of doubt.

Like some kind of "saint."

Serpentine

2011-09-23, 06:08 AM

So not only is there a typical geek look, but it also overlaps and blends with the typical metalhead look? :smallconfused: :smalleek:Yes, actually. At the very least with a "perceived" in front of it.

Coidzor

2011-09-23, 06:44 AM

Yes, actually. At the very least with a "perceived" in front of it.

Indeed, however, the only one I'm aware of is the physical characteristics of bad teeth, bad hair, bad skin, and bad eyes. So please, elaborate on what clothing I have to wear in order to qualify if Syka is unable or unwilling to do so.

Serpentine

2011-09-23, 06:49 AM

Syka

2011-09-23, 12:34 PM

The item that most readily comes to my mind, as being shared by moderately-to-very stereotyped geeks and somewhat-to-moderately stereotyped metalheads is black t-shirts with some fantastical and/or scary picture on it, and/or a black band t-shirt. There is also, for the ladies for the most part, goth-like apparel - again, shared by geeks and metalheads.

Pretty much this. He also wore those funny geeky shirts (which I adore). In the 'geeks' I know, these looks blend together a lot. And, maybe it's my area, but most are also into metal.

Mind, I have my fair share of metal band shirts, so it's not a condemnation or anything. It's more an observation that the geeks I know tend to overlap heavily with the metalheads, so the looks have been melded in my mind.

And yes, that's probably why people don't expect you to be a geek. No one really realized how big of a geek the other guy I dated was, and the only reason everyone knows how big of a geek Oz is is because it's apparent in his conversations (and his myriad of Star Wars themed shirts doesn't hide it, either).

skywalker

2011-09-23, 12:42 PM

So, does it matter whether or not the song came out before or after they revealed themselves as Christian? If so, why? Are you implying that Christians are stupid, so we shouldn't be surprised at it?

No, I'm implying that any person on record saying "I don't give a toss about *that evidence" who also criticizes people for being aggressively ignorant should examine whether they, themselves, are being aggressively ignorant. IE, you. You showed aggressive, willing ignorance in the same conversation where you condemned it.

I implied nothing of the sort about any religious community. I am saying that there are number of ways one can interpret the song "Miracles," and one should probably see some self-deprecation, bearing in mind that the duo have always been in some part a parody of themselves.

Indeed, however, the only one I'm aware of is the physical characteristics of bad teeth, bad hair, bad skin, and bad eyes. So please, elaborate on what clothing I have to wear in order to qualify if Syka is unable or unwilling to do so.

Now, see, I don't actually see that. When I think of geeks, I do think of glasses, but typically some sort of facial hair (typically the lazy type, not the on-purpose type), and a general demeanor prevail when I think "geek."

Syka

2011-09-23, 01:11 PM

Also, I'm not actually saying you have to wear that stuff to qualify as a geek. But, at least in my area, to be visually perceived as a geek, that is normally what is worn. Glass, acne, bad hygiene, etc isn't as much of a trademark (at least around here).

And having been to a local gaming shop earlier this week...now that I think about it, all the guys were wearing black, about half being metal band shirts. Most hand longish hair. Only a few were overweight/bad hygiene/etc. IIRC, it was similar at the other local gaming shop I go to.

As I said, not necessarily bad. Ex was pretty universally recognized as very attractive, and I tend to fall into the dark clothing trend, etc. It's just what I've noticed.

Basically, I'm more likely to categorize someone as a possible geek in black/metal band shirt than, say, someone wearing a pastel polo shirt. And note the "possible geek". Everything hinges on conversations, particularly since I have many friends who DON'T fit that *thinks about her conservative Catholic friend who dresses in polos a lot and who loves M:tG and other RPs*. But, in general, a lot of gamers/geeks/whatever tend towards dark clothes and band shirts in my experience.

skywalker

2011-09-23, 02:35 PM

@Syka and the rest of the "geek uniform" conversation: I used to have long hair and wear a lot of black t-shirts. Over the course of college (most of my later years spent in the business school) my wardrobe shifted to polos, sport shirts, and khakis, and I recently cut my hair when I entered the job market. I do, however, play a frack-ton of Magic and await the day when I can restore my hair to its glorious previous length.

In other news, I'm starting to think the previously discussed Tait article is actually satire/parody:

Gavin de Becker is an author who has written several books about the nature of fear. In his book The Gift of Fear: Survival Signals That Protect Us From Violence, he noted that the outcome a woman feared most from any romantic encounter was rape and death. I know it must be really hard on you, kiddo. You're going to go through life fearing that, in a worst-case scenario, you could be sexually assaulted and murdered by a member of the opposite sex.

Well, yes, Geordie, if this is really for your unborn daughter, and she grows up having you tell her that her greatest fear in romance should be rape/death, then she probably will.

Arminius

2011-09-23, 04:01 PM

{Scrubbed}

Grim Reader

2011-09-23, 06:58 PM

In other news, I'm starting to think the previously discussed Tait article is actually satire/parody:

I have been wondering about something ike that: What is up with this article? The man is a professional writer, he cannot possibly have thought he was hitting any of the people who needs to read this? Is he just doing it for the accolades? Is he actually trying to hurt both feminism and geek culture -where is the prfit in that?

Or...he mentioned in the article that he did not have any relationship untill he was 28, and in the pics his looks do not look like a dealbreaker. Could he be a generally very angry person who thinks huge screaming rants is the way to be heard?

Well, yes, Geordie, if this is really for your unborn daughter, and she grows up having you tell her that her greatest fear in romance should be rape/death, then she probably will.

I didn't get that bit either, but it was something else that stuck with me: Although men and womens greatest fear in dating is not balanced, he seems to leap directly to the conclusion that women subjecting men to the realization of their greatest fear is therefore OK?