Artificer Infusions = Transmutation Spells?

[Tibbaerrohwen]

I'm currently a little enchanted by the Shaper of Form and am now curious:

1) Would an Artificer's Infusions count as Transmutation Spells for the purpose of getting into the PrC?

2) Do Infusions increase with spell level increases in PrC's?

Thanks.

[Urpriest]

1. No

2. Yes

I believe the rules for this are in Magic of Eberron.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

1. No

2. Yes

I believe the rules for this are in Magic of Eberron.

That sucks. I was really hoping that would work.
You'd think, as it changes the make-up of something, it could count.

[Fouredged Sword]

Would it be posible for you to meet the transutation spell requirement another way? You can get lowish level spells without class levels.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Would it be posible for you to meet the transutation spell requirement another way? You can get lowish level spells without class levels.

That's kind of what I was going for. I would like to take primarily Artificer levels and stay away from real "casters".

Suggestions?

Do you think allowing Infusions to counts as Transmutation spells for a PrC would be a fair request?

Thanks.

[Fouredged Sword]

What are the specific requirements (word for word please) for the class you want to enter. I am AFB right now, so I can't look it up.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

What are the specific requirements (word for word please) for the class you want to enter. I am AFB right now, so I can't look it up.

I would like to make a build that uses the Shaper of Form PrC. IT requires that I be able to cast six spells from the school of transmutation. The fluff around the PrC is all about manipulating matter, and having studied building and altering objects in the past.
Artificer seemed fitting.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

EDIT: [double post, please ignore]

[Fouredged Sword]

How many transmutation cantraps can you find? One level of wizard would do, as you can scribe every transmutation 1st and 0th level spell into your spell book. One level of sorcerer may do as well if you can find enough cantraps to fill the requierments.

A level of bard may be able to sneak enough transmutation in as well. A dash of healing and buffing never hurt anyone and this way you don't run into problems with light armor.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

How many transmutation cantraps can you find? One level of wizard would do, as you can scribe every transmutation 1st and 0th level spell into your spell book. One level of sorcerer may do as well if you can find enough cantraps to fill the requierments.

A level of bard may be able to sneak enough transmutation in as well. A dash of healing and buffing never hurt anyone and this way you don't run into problems with light armor.

That may work, I just hate to waste the level, but I appreciate the help.

EDIT: Hold on a second; Artificer Infusions have schools of magic just like spells. Why wouldn't they apply?

EDIT: On a side note, do either Knowstones or Pearls of Power apply to Artificer Infusions? OR is there a similar item that applies?

[Fouredged Sword]

Sounds like you have a book to book translation issue where two authors failed to connect the books with codified rules. This moves into DM ruleing and I would think that the ruleing should be in your favor based on spellcasting PRC's advanceing infusions. If spellcasting advancement counts twards infusions, then it isn't a stretch for infusions to count as spellcasting.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

Sounds like you have a book to book translation issue where two authors failed to connect the books with codified rules. This moves into DM ruleing and I would think that the ruleing should be in your favor based on spellcasting PRC's advanceing infusions. If spellcasting advancement counts twards infusions, then it isn't a stretch for infusions to count as spellcasting.

That's my thought process as well, thank you.

[Urpriest]

You're right, Artificer Infusions do have schools. I thought they didn't for some reason.

Then yeah, this should work. The class can't specify arcane vs. divine (since Artificers are neither), but your transmutation infusions would qualify as transmutation spells.

[NecroRick]

That may work, I just hate to waste the level, but I appreciate the help.

EDIT: Hold on a second; Artificer Infusions have schools of magic just like spells. Why wouldn't they apply?

True!

See:
Armor Enhancement, Lesser
Energy Alteration
Enhancement Alteration
Inflict Light Damage
Repair Light Damage
Spell Storing Item
Skill enhancement
Weapon Augmentation, Personal


Note however that infusions are NOT ARCANE (nor are they divine). Normally this is a good thing (no Arcane Spell Failure!), but _if_ some prestige class specifies arcane or divine, you can't qualify for them using artificer.

For instance initiate of the sevenfold veil specifies:
"Able to cast five abjuration spells, including at least two of 4th level or higher"

So you meet that requirement (but not others, including skill limitations) after 8 levels of Artificer. (But before you rush and spend up large on crappy spell focus (abjuration) feats, see below)

But you wouldn't qualify for Abjurant Champion:
"Must be able to cast 1st level arcane spells, including at least one abjuration spell"

(Dipping of course would solve that problem -> but now you have two problems, the second being that it advances _arcane_ casting, not casting in general. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil has the exact same problem btw, it doesn't advance your infusions)



EDIT: On a side note, do either Knowstones or Pearls of Power apply to Artificer Infusions? OR is there a similar item that applies?

AFAIK:

Knowstones do not apply since you already know all infusions (disclaimer for the nitpicky: except for any that the DM makes up and says are from the ancient time of the giants blah blah blah). And it doesn't give you an extra slot. So if you made one it would have to be infusion specific, and it would let you spend one of your infusion slots to cast that particular infusion... totally pointless (but see prior disclaimer).

Pearl of Power does not apply because you do not prepare your infusions.

and even Runestaves won't help, since you need to expend arcane slots to use them...

There are, however, alternatives:

Minor Schemas let you cast pretty much anything (including Arcane or Divine) 1/day. "Get yer Unfettered Heroism while it's still hot!" You should have more than enough UMD by the time you can make them.

Memento Magica (p164 MIC) are like pearls of power for unprepared casters, note they're about 50% more expensive... as an Artificer though you should be making them, so you get your discounts anyway...

Ring of Master Artifice (p125 MIC (also: one of the Eberron sourcebooks)) is like a ring of wizardry for artificers and comes in 3 flavours, for 1-2, 3-4 and you guessed it... 5-6, where you can prepare one of each extra per day. (The Ring of Master Artifice, Lesser at 5,000gp is cost comparable to a Pearl of Power lvl 1 + PoP lvl 2 - except that as a Ring you can't make one until like 14th level or some bogus super high level like that)

Circlet of Mages is a cheaper and better way of getting back low level slots. Unless you have something else you want to do with your head slot, this is your one stop shop for all your regaining low level slots needs. You can use it to regain a first and second slot (in which case it is effectively just like a Ring of Master Artifice Lesser) or you can use it to regain a 3rd level slot. Booyah. 5000gp item that does the same thing as a 9000gp PoP? Yes please. :D Also, it comes with a bonus for concentration (*yawn* whatever). To craft it you need to fake access to a 4th level Wizard† spell, so you need to be at least 5th level.

†One of the few Wizard only spells, not shared with Sorcerers (not that it matters, just an interesting piece of trivia)

If you want to regain slots higher than 3rd though, the Memento Magica is your best choice. Or, if you're desperate to get more slots at levels 3-4 again Memento Magica is your best choice. So... between level 5 and 8 the Circlet is your best bet.

[Tibbaerrohwen]

True!

See:
Armor Enhancement, Lesser
Energy Alteration
Enhancement Alteration
Inflict Light Damage
Repair Light Damage
Spell Storing Item
Skill enhancement
Weapon Augmentation, Personal


Note however that infusions are NOT ARCANE (nor are they divine). Normally this is a good thing (no Arcane Spell Failure!), but _if_ some prestige class specifies arcane or divine, you can't qualify for them using artificer.

For instance initiate of the sevenfold veil specifies:
"Able to cast five abjuration spells, including at least two of 4th level or higher"

So you meet that requirement (but not others, including skill limitations) after 8 levels of Artificer. (But before you rush and spend up large on crappy spell focus (abjuration) feats, see below)

But you wouldn't qualify for Abjurant Champion:
"Must be able to cast 1st level arcane spells, including at least one abjuration spell"

(Dipping of course would solve that problem -> but now you have two problems, the second being that it advances _arcane_ casting, not casting in general. Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil has the exact same problem btw, it doesn't advance your infusions)



AFAIK:

Knowstones do not apply since you already know all infusions (disclaimer for the nitpicky: except for any that the DM makes up and says are from the ancient time of the giants blah blah blah). And it doesn't give you an extra slot. So if you made one it would have to be infusion specific, and it would let you spend one of your infusion slots to cast that particular infusion... totally pointless (but see prior disclaimer).

Pearl of Power does not apply because you do not prepare your infusions.

and even Runestaves won't help, since you need to expend arcane slots to use them...

There are, however, alternatives:

Minor Schemas let you cast pretty much anything (including Arcane or Divine) 1/day. "Get yer Unfettered Heroism while it's still hot!" You should have more than enough UMD by the time you can make them.

Memento Magica (p164 MIC) are like pearls of power for unprepared casters, note they're about 50% more expensive... as an Artificer though you should be making them, so you get your discounts anyway...

Ring of Master Artifice (p125 MIC (also: one of the Eberron sourcebooks)) is like a ring of wizardry for artificers and comes in 3 flavours, for 1-2, 3-4 and you guessed it... 5-6, where you can prepare one of each extra per day. (The Ring of Master Artifice, Lesser at 5,000gp is cost comparable to a Pearl of Power lvl 1 + PoP lvl 2 - except that as a Ring you can't make one until like 14th level or some bogus super high level like that)

Circlet of Mages is a cheaper and better way of getting back low level slots. Unless you have something else you want to do with your head slot, this is your one stop shop for all your regaining low level slots needs. You can use it to regain a first and second slot (in which case it is effectively just like a Ring of Master Artifice Lesser) or you can use it to regain a 3rd level slot. Booyah. 5000gp item that does the same thing as a 9000gp PoP? Yes please. :D Also, it comes with a bonus for concentration (*yawn* whatever). To craft it you need to fake access to a 4th level Wizard† spell, so you need to be at least 5th level.

†One of the few Wizard only spells, not shared with Sorcerers (not that it matters, just an interesting piece of trivia)

If you want to regain slots higher than 3rd though, the Memento Magica is your best choice. Or, if you're desperate to get more slots at levels 3-4 again Memento Magica is your best choice. So... between level 5 and 8 the Circlet is your best bet.

Thank you for the useful list of items.

Thankfully Shaper of Form does not specify whether they need be arcane or divine spells, simply "six spells from the school of transmutation".

Hazah!