Familiar or Not?

[goose1009]

Im starting up a Conjuration based wizard here soon, mostly focusing on the battlefield control options more than summons. Now i have a choice, do i take the "Abrubt jaunt" in place of my familiar or should I go for the familiar? I know there are some nice tricks out there for using a familiar well, but not really up to speed on them. This is my first true "optimization" build and want to be as good as I can without unbalancing things too much.

Any advice would be appreciated, thank you very much.

[candycorn]

If you're not up on the familiar tricks, I'd go abrupt jaunt. It's an easy to use defensive ability.

The familiar tricks focus on extra spells per round, but expose you to damage.

[Tar Palantir]

Abrupt Jaunt, hands down. If you work hard, there are some neat familiar tricks, but "trading it away for Abrupt Jaunt" is on the top of that list. It's a fantastic way to say no to attacks, AoEs, etc.

[subject42]

The biggest problem with familiar tricks are that they make your familiar a legitimate target. Given the penalties associated with losing a familiar, you probably don't want to do that.

[hangedman1984]

unless you plan on really optimizing it, the familiar just isn't worth it. As others have said abrupt jaunt is the best replacement, but even the forlorn flaw (lose familiar, gain feat) is better.

[Volthawk]

Besides, once you get to 3rd level, you can take a feat (Obtain Familiar from Complete Arcane) to get a familiar, if you really want it. So yeah, Abrupt Jaunt. There's no feat I know of to obtain Abrupt Jaunt, unlike a familiar. The only one like that (Dimensional Jaunt) needs a standard action, not an immediate like Abrupt Jaunt.

[Gnaeus]

It depends on DM, alignment, and party composition.

If you want a familiar to be better than abrupt jaunt, you will want Improved Familiar. What feat would you be giving up for the Improved Familiar feat? You can also take Abrupt Jaunt, then a feat to give yourself a familiar, then Improved familiar, but then you need to know which 2 feats you will be giving up.

Which improved familiars would your alignment qualify you for? At the very least, it needs hands and a language.

What is in your party? Is once per week Commune going to be really valuable, or not important in your campaign? Do you have a cleric, bard, or other support caster doing buffs or emergency battlefield healing, or would your familiar be playing an otherwise unfilled party role? Can you be sure that you can buy or make the items (support wands, healing belt, etc) that the familiar will need to function, or is DM stingy with gold/time/shopping opportunities? As a wizard, you can probably afford the skill points to keep UMD maxed cross-class.

[Tr011]

Immediate action Int/day to teleport? It's ok, but not worth a familiar. If you want both, you probably forgot about something: The best ability of a familiar is Share Spells, that allows you to buff your familiar without an action and without an extra spell slot - as long as you buff yourself and your familiar stays in 5ft.
With Abrupt Jaunt, you'd often have to teleport away from your familiar, which means all your Share'd spells end (unless you port next to your familiar, but this eliminates a part of the versatility of Abrupt Jaunt).

Also, I don't agree that "if you take a familiar you also want to improve it". Improving a familiar has it's advantage, but is not a must-have. Take a raven and your familiar can do all it has to do. It can speak and fly (with good speed and good maneuverability).
Also look through some spells and you'll find some great uses for your familiar without great investments, for example Heroics (wiz 2 spell from Spell Compendium) grants you a fighter bonus feat you meet the prerequisites for. Share it to your familiar and give it Martial Study for White Raven Tactics and another White Raven Maneuver as PreReq, while giving yourself Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Now enjoy 1/encounter an extra full round's worth of actions.

Maxing UMD for your familiar is nice, but not necessary. You can also grab Spell-Linked Familiar and let your familiar cast spells like yourself, so it qualifies to use any wiz-spell-item w/o using UMD at all (but I'm not so sure about this one).

Since a raven can speak one language, it can use items with Command words, so you could make an item to cast any useful spell that does not need high DC/high CL (like Grease).
Polymorphing Spells are also very useful with your familiar. I.E. use Trollshape and be TWO Trolls at one time.

[Big Fau]

The familiar tricks focus on extra spells per round, but expose you to damage.

Or polymorph. Can't go wrong with turning your familiar into a Warforged Titan.

[Drachasor]

Personally, I've always liked a familiar for the utility. A Raven Familiar can go and deliver messages miles away. It can also talk and answer questions, which spells with a similar function cannot do for any extended period (not low level ones anyhow). Scouting is something they can do fairly well also. They are pretty handy outside of combat in general, honestly.

Edit: Like someone said though, if you have an open feat then you can pick one up at 3rd.

[TwylyghT]

Enspell Familiar feat (Dragon Compendium) extends share spell range to 1 mile.

This is gold.

[Tr011]

Personally, I've always liked a familiar for the utility. A Raven Familiar can go and deliver messages miles away. It can also talk and answer questions, which spells with a similar function cannot do for any extended period (not low level ones anyhow). Scouting is something they can do fairly well also. They are pretty handy outside of combat in general, honestly.

Edit: Like someone said though, if you have an open feat then you can pick one up at 3rd.

Don't forget that Alertness is also a nice bonus feat and you get a bonus to several skills by just saying "raven supports" (with the advanced Aid Another rules of Complete Adventurer, you get easy a +3 on many skills).

Also it's nice for RP.

[TheJake]

Make the familiar interesting - e.g. Spellstitching, and its not as sucky or fragile anymore.

I second the vote that you really need to examine the whole party and play style generally.

Commune with my main D&D GM would be a godsend.

- J.

[faceroll]

Or polymorph. Can't go wrong with turning your familiar into a Warforged Titan.

You know, except it still has half of your crappy HP. A stiff breeze kills your typical familiar.

[KillianHawkeye]

You know, except it still has half of your crappy HP. A stiff breeze kills your typical familiar.

So use one of the polymorph spells that grants bonus hit points, like Dragonshape.

[faceroll]

So use one of the polymorph spells that grants bonus hit points, like Dragonshape.

235 HP at level 17+ still seems a little slim.

[Big Fau]

You know, except it still has half of your crappy HP. A stiff breeze kills your typical familiar.

Considering all of the other buff spells you can put on it, I fail to see how it's HP matters any more than the master's does. Everyone without at least 6th level spell-style defenses dies quickly at the high levels, regardless of HP. Even the dreaded Tarrasque drops in one round against more than one enemy.

[Lyndworm]

Heroics (wiz 2 spell from Spell Compendium) grants you a fighter bonus feat you meet the prerequisites for. Share it to your familiar and give it Martial Study for White Raven Tactics and another White Raven Maneuver as PreReq, while giving yourself Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot. Now enjoy 1/encounter an extra full round's worth of actions.
That would be a great use of a Familiar if it were legal. You can't use heroics to qualify for feats, which means that you don't qualify for another feat in the chain with successive castings of heroics.

[Optimator]

As it's been said, familiars are cool but not abrupt-jaunt cool.

[Geigan]

What level are you starting at? I'd say familiar is good if you're willing to put some work into it, but abrupt jaunt is easier to use out of the box and will almost always be useful.

[Tr011]

That would be a great use of a Familiar if it were legal. You can't use heroics to qualify for feats, which means that you don't qualify for another feat in the chain with successive castings of heroics.

It grants you the Feat itself, so I don't see why you shouldn't qualify for other Feats with it.

[faceroll]

Considering all of the other buff spells you can put on it, I fail to see how it's HP matters any more than the master's does. Everyone without at least 6th level spell-style defenses dies quickly at the high levels, regardless of HP. Even the dreaded Tarrasque drops in one round against more than one enemy.

Yeah, I suppose if you invest resources in your familiar to make it good, it becomes good. Imagine that! But don't expect your typical familiar right out the gate to be anything special. And remember, without burning feats, any spells you want to share disappear as soon as that huge red dragon of a familiar moves more than 5 feet away.

[goose1009]

What level are you starting at? I'd say familiar is good if you're willing to put some work into it, but abrupt jaunt is easier to use out of the box and will almost always be useful.

We're starting at level 3, as for the rest of the party, im not 100% on everyone, but from what i know we have:

Cleric (shadow based i think)
Rogue (typical TWF rogue)
Fighter (no idea what type)
Shadowcaster (know little about the class, but its pretty weak overall from what im gathering)
And finally myself, a Conj based off of Treatmonks build. Taking very little damage spells, mostly battlefield control and buffs/debuffs.

My GM dosent really like AJ, he has suggested that its 1XDAY per two levels, max int mod. So it will take a little while to come into its own, but thats not too bad of a tradeoff i think.

What kind of cool things have people done with their familiars? Maybe some stories would help sway me one way or the other.

[sreservoir]

My GM dosent really like AJ, he has suggested that its 1XDAY per two levels, max int mod. So it will take a little while to come into its own, but thats not too bad of a tradeoff i think.]

eh, wizard isn't usually worth staying in for more than five level, so you're getting maybe 2/day.


What kind of cool things have people done with their familiars? Maybe some stories would help sway me one way or the other.

dragon #323 has the hummingbird familiar. it gives +4 init.

[Tr011]

Yeah, I suppose if you invest resources in your familiar to make it good, it becomes good. Imagine that! But don't expect your typical familiar right out the gate to be anything special. And remember, without burning feats, any spells you want to share disappear as soon as that huge red dragon of a familiar moves more than 5 feet away.

Generally speaking, you shouldn't pimp your familiar too much. If your familiar seems to be a greater threat to your opponents than you, it gets focused. You don't want that. But it can be very decent at utility or even at fight if you share the right spells. For example you can give it Constant Guardian (DotU) via Heroics (SpC) so it gets -2 attack and gives you a +2 dodge bonus to AC as long as it stays in 10ft. This little combo needs nothing that is not available for every wizard with the only investment of a level 2 spell slot. Also, if you want to get a dodge as immediate action because you'r afraid of attacks, just let your familiar handle this: Following the rules of DMG, an item with infinite Blockade (Complete Scoundrel) per day via Command word only useable by your familiar's alignment should cost 1.800*1*1*70/100 = 1260gp. Your familiar readies it's action to cast this when you are getting attacked. This blocks LoE. At greater levels, get an item for your familiar to cast Dimension Door. This is Abrupt Jaunt infinite times/day without an action for yourself, also at far more distance and it can teleport additional teammates, too.
There's no reason to give away a familiar for something far less versatile if you want to go optimized. Also consider Spellblade-Tennis with your familiar (I don't have the link anymore).

/edit: I use my familiar a lot lately, some buffs are just zomfg on your familiar (i.e. Hunter's Eye from PHB2, but it's not a wizard spell). Whenever you roll for a skill check, think about your familiar: Does it roll itself (like for knowledge) or does it support (like for haggling).
I wouldn't take a familiar that is some kind of very evil (like an imp) since they often have to be hidden or can't support you in social situations.
The additional rolls for spot&listen are especially useful: I get +9 Listen f.e. while my familiar gets +8, so it's a great help if someone sneaks around and I fail my listen roll. Also it can take some actions that are not worth for you to be done in-fight (like using sense motive to say how difficult an enemy is).
There are many ways to make use of a familiar and you will see some of them when you start playing and think about "how can my familiar help me in this situation" - mostly there is an answer, but it's not always obvious.

[sreservoir]

Generally speaking, you shouldn't pimp your familiar too much. If your familiar seems to be a greater threat to your opponents than you, it gets focused. You don't want that. But it can be very decent at utility or even at fight if you share the right spells. For example you can give it Constant Guardian (DotU) via Heroics (SpC) so it gets -2 attack and gives you a +2 dodge bonus to AC as long as it stays in 10ft. This little combo needs nothing that is not available for every wizard with the only investment of a level 2 spell slot. Also, if you want to get a dodge as immediate action because you'r afraid of attacks, just let your familiar handle this: Following the rules of DMG, an item with infinite Blockade (Complete Scoundrel) per day via Command word only useable by your familiar's alignment should cost 1.800*1*1*70/100 = 1260gp. Your familiar readies it's action to cast this when you are getting attacked. This blocks LoE. At greater levels, get an item for your familiar to cast Dimension Door. This is Abrupt Jaunt infinite times/day without an action for yourself, also at far more distance and it can teleport additional teammates, too.
There's no reason to give away a familiar for something far less versatile if you want to go optimized. Also consider Spellblade-Tennis with your familiar (I don't have the link anymore).

spellblade tennis? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151109)

[Tr011]

spellblade tennis? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=151109)

Yeah exactly. you don't have to abuse this too hard, it's enough to keep a dispel magic between you two since you need Spellblade[Dispel Magic] anyhow if you use buffs. And a Dispel Magic as a free action is often a nice debuff (depending on DM).

[faceroll]

Generally speaking, you shouldn't pimp your familiar too much. If your familiar seems to be a greater threat to your opponents than you, it gets focused. You don't want that. But it can be very decent at utility or even at fight if you share the right spells. For example you can give it Constant Guardian (DotU) via Heroics (SpC) so it gets -2 attack and gives you a +2 dodge bonus to AC as long as it stays in 10ft. This little combo needs nothing that is not available for every wizard with the only investment of a level 2 spell slot. Also, if you want to get a dodge as immediate action because you'r afraid of attacks, just let your familiar handle this: Following the rules of DMG, an item with infinite Blockade (Complete Scoundrel) per day via Command word only useable by your familiar's alignment should cost 1.800*1*1*70/100 = 1260gp. Your familiar readies it's action to cast this when you are getting attacked. This blocks LoE. At greater levels, get an item for your familiar to cast Dimension Door. This is Abrupt Jaunt infinite times/day without an action for yourself, also at far more distance and it can teleport additional teammates, too.
There's no reason to give away a familiar for something far less versatile if you want to go optimized. Also consider Spellblade-Tennis with your familiar (I don't have the link anymore).

/edit: I use my familiar a lot lately, some buffs are just zomfg on your familiar (i.e. Hunter's Eye from PHB2, but it's not a wizard spell). Whenever you roll for a skill check, think about your familiar: Does it roll itself (like for knowledge) or does it support (like for haggling).
I wouldn't take a familiar that is some kind of very evil (like an imp) since they often have to be hidden or can't support you in social situations.
The additional rolls for spot&listen are especially useful: I get +9 Listen f.e. while my familiar gets +8, so it's a great help if someone sneaks around and I fail my listen roll. Also it can take some actions that are not worth for you to be done in-fight (like using sense motive to say how difficult an enemy is).
There are many ways to make use of a familiar and you will see some of them when you start playing and think about "how can my familiar help me in this situation" - mostly there is an answer, but it's not always obvious.

Familiars with hands are good for UMD, if you've got ranks in UMD. I'd rather not get into the particulars of custom, at will magic items, because that's all sorts of breakable.

I agree that familiars are great for skill checks, especially aid another for boosting that spellcraft check when using incantatrix. They also make decent watch-pets and scouts.

Imp/Quasit are pretty solid, imo, thanks to invis and polymorph at will, and their 1/week commune. In a core only game, I think they're definitely worth the feat, provided you start at a level high enough to have one, or your DM won't give you xp penalties for changing familiars like that.

Familiars can be great for utility, especially before enemies regularly have see invis or all the other high level stuff that lets them detect things. The small size also lets them scout well. I prefer rat familiars for the +2 fortitude and their climb and swim movement modes. They're quite fast for a tiny creature, and most people won't think twice about a rat scurrying around.

[Tr011]

They're quite fast for a tiny creature, and most people won't think twice about a rat scurrying around.

A rat is quite good in poor cities and dungeons, also decent at the forest. But they can never support you in social situations like a raven does.

[faceroll]

A rat is quite good in poor cities and dungeons, also decent at the forest. But they can never support you in social situations like a raven does.

That's true, but that's what Charm Person is there for :smallwink:

[dextercorvia]

That would be a great use of a Familiar if it were legal. You can't use heroics to qualify for feats, which means that you don't qualify for another feat in the chain with successive castings of heroics.

Can you back this up?

[faceroll]

Can you back this up?

Yeah, there's nothing in the spell description to this extent. There's a bit in there about needing to meet the pre-reqs for the feat, but that's it.



Can you use heroics to meet pre-reqs for entering a prestige class on 6th level, then using that level to pick up that feat upon the expiration of heroics?

[dextercorvia]

Yeah, there's nothing in the spell description to this extent. There's a bit in there about needing to meet the pre-reqs for the feat, but that's it.



Can you use heroics to meet pre-reqs for entering a prestige class on 6th level, then using that level to pick up that feat upon the expiration of heroics?

Depends on how your DM defines level up time. There is nothing to prevent it by RAW.

[Gnaeus]

Imp/Quasit are pretty solid, imo, thanks to invis and polymorph at will, and their 1/week commune. In a core only game, I think they're definitely worth the feat, provided you start at a level high enough to have one, or your DM won't give you xp penalties for changing familiars like that.

Familiars can be great for utility, especially before enemies regularly have see invis or all the other high level stuff that lets them detect things..

Imp/Quasit (or Lyrakien if you play PF) are the gold standard for me.

The commune has helped us advance in the main storyline, and has also helped give information for better spell preparation.

In combat curing is a bad idea FOR A PC because it is so much less useful than anything else that character could be doing. But a tiny invisible flier with a healing belt or 4 and a wand of CSW can be really helpful through mid levels if a PC drops, or is getting close to dropping.

I gave mine a quiver of Ehlonna (because wands are roughly the same size as arrows) and a selection of low level wands. Some wands that are really good for a familiar include:
Lesser Restoration
Cure X Wounds
Resurgence (because if your fighter is panicked, your cleric can't chase him down the hall to give him another chance at a saving throw, but your familiar is really good at this)
Snakes Swiftness (If you don't have haste up already)
Protection from X (for dealing with mind affecting conditions, see Resurgence)
Obscuring Mist
Bless
Benign Transposition (Invisible familiar flies to square next to monster with reach, then swaps places with fighter, allowing full attack, or if retreating, familiar swaps places with fighter then flies away).

Note that you could get all those wands fully charged, the quiver, and 4 healing belts (1 per combat) for under 12k GP. Given how much it helps him, your fighter should be willing to pitch in on this. (Edit: I forgot Blockade, Resist Energy and Enlarge Person)

Other useful things he did included setting traps with monstrous spider silk. Invisible flying scouting, and (with the aid of the rangers animal companion) breeding a pack of Half-Fiend Boars.

I think when my Dread Necro died (or, well, ceased to be. He was already dead) the party mourned his familiar more than him.

[Lyndworm]

It grants you the Feat itself, so I don't see why you shouldn't qualify for other Feats with it.

Can you back this up?

Yeah, there's nothing in the spell description to this extent.
Lemme check my book... Well, would you look at that. I was totally and completely wrong. Sorry about that. For some reason I was imagining another sentence entirely and I have no idea how that happened. My mistake.

[hangedman1984]

My GM dosent really like AJ, he has suggested that its 1XDAY per two levels, max int mod. So it will take a little while to come into its own, but thats not too bad of a tradeoff i think.

wizard level or caster level?



eh, wizard isn't usually worth staying in for more than five level, so you're getting maybe 2/day.

that fact also hurts familiars, as they are not advanced either if you prestige out of base wizard

[Tr011]

wizard level or caster level?




that fact also hurts familiars, as they are not advanced either if you prestige out of base wizard

A familiar doesn't need much of the abilities. Level 5 grants you already the most you need.