Divine Grace stacking?

[MesiDoomstalker]

The Holy Liberator class in Complete Divine gives you Divine Grace which is identical to the one Paladins get. RAI they were never intended to stack because Holy Liberator is CG only. BUT! The alternate Paladins, specifically the Paladin of Freedom, still gets Divine Grace AND can qualify for Holy Liberator. So, my question is, would these stack? They are called the exact same thing but neither entry gives specific provision on not stacking which makes me believe they would. Both entries are exactly the same except the level at which its gained and the name of the class (obviously).

[Fouredged Sword]

Check the name of the bonus. If the bonus has a type, then no. If it is untyped then it would be a DM's call to decide if they qualift as the same ability.

[Andreaz]

RAW they won't stack if the bonus is of the same type or name. Like "divine grace". if both are called that, they shouldn't stack.

RAI I wouldn't allow it. Double-dipping the same stat to the same thing tends to go bad ways.

[Flickerdart]

Bonuses from the same source (Divine Grace) don't stack. For the same reason, a Ninja/Monk doesn't get 2*WIS to AC.

However, there is an ACF to trade out the Paladin's Divine Grace for CHA to AC, so you could grab that and then Holy Liberator.

[Gametime]

I'm sure someone could give a better citation, but a quick scan yielded this:


Several other general rules apply when spells or magical effects operate in the same place:
Stacking Effects: Spells that provide bonuses or penalties on attack rolls, damage rolls, saving throws, and other attributes usually do not stack with themselves.


bonus: A positive modifier to a die roll. In most cases, multiple bonuses from the same source or of the same type in effect on the same character or object do not stack; only the highest bonus of that type applies.

The first quote implies that "magical effects" are treated the same way as spells when it comes to stacking, but doesn't outright say it. The second explicitly rules out Divine Grace stacking if two abilities with the same name are considered to be the same source; unfortunately, I couldn't find a concrete definition of what constitutes a "source."

I'm certain I've seen Curmudgeon say two abilities with the same name are the same source for purposes of stacking, though.

[Metahuman1]

Would Witch Hunter PRC form Oriental Adventures Kami's grace ability stack with Divine Grace?

[Andreaz]

I'm certain I've seen Curmudgeon say two abilities with the same name are the same source for purposes of stacking, though.

I think I read that about Barbarian and Scout and MOnk speed, which do not stack due to being all Enhancement(or was it a PRC setup?), even though it'd make sense that if all three classes involved speed training, speed would add up.
Mechanically this is much more permissible because it's not double-dipping, but a continued progression. I'd allow that over RAW's forbiddance.

[Flickerdart]

Would Witch Hunter PRC form Oriental Adventures Kami's grace ability stack with Divine Grace?
Should, unless it's explicitly stated not to. Different sources, after all.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Both entries are untyped. So the debate is whether they are the same source or not. I'm inclined to say they are but the Munchkin in me wants it not to be so.

EDIT: Taking a look at Paladin of Freedom (I was running off memory) Holy Liberator is (almost) the same class but in Prestige form. The only difference is the when various things come online and Remove Enchantment instead of Remove Disease (frankly this is better IMHO). Also, Holy Liberator remove Fatigue on the party Barbarian 3+Cha times per day. Also useful.

[Diarmuid]

Same source means the same ability.

Kami Grace +3 and Divine Grace +3 are completely separate sources as opposed to two separate instances of Divine Grace +3 that would not stack with one another.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Same source means the same ability.

Kami Grace +3 and Divine Grace +3 are completely separate sources as opposed to two separate instances of Divine Grace +3 that would not stack with one another.

Ah but what about the evil paladins Divine Grace and....I can't remember the class but its an arcane class that gets a renamed Divine Grace but is a non-good only class? Those would stack then.

[Diarmuid]

Anything named something other than "Divine Grace" would stack just fine.

[candycorn]

However, there is an ACF to trade out the Paladin's Divine Grace for CHA to AC, so you could grab that and then Holy Liberator.

What ACF is this?

[Cog]

What ACF is this?
It's the Red Falcon sub levels, from Champions of Valor. It's got further limits on use, however.

Handy reference (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872054/Alternative_Class_Features_III).

[Person_Man]

We have this argument about once a month. Bonuses from the same source (like 2 spells or 2 class abilities or 2 magic items with same name) do not stack. In addition, bonus types with the same name (such as armor, shield, sacred, vile, luck, insight) do not stack, unless it's a Dodge bonus, and unnamed bonus, or if the description explicitly says otherwise.

The attribute from which the source derives it's bonus (usually Wis or Cha) has no bearing on the stacking rules, but many DM's will rule otherwise because they feel that it breaks the intent of the rules. (And it's actually fairly easy to stack unnamed bonus types from differently named sources - just peruse the X to Y (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread).

For example, Divine Grace from multiple sources do not stack, because both bonuses are from a source with the same name. Casting Greater Magic Weapon on a +5 longsword has no additional effect, because both provide Enhancement bonuses to hit and damage. But a Paladin's Divine Grace would stack with a Witch Hunter's Kami's Grace, because they are differently named sources which provide unnamed bonuses.

EDIT: NINJA'S, FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES AND NAMES!

[Cog]

EDIT: NINJA'S, FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES AND NAMES!
I agree that multiple ninjas should stack. However, do they stack because they come from different ISPs, or do they stack because they quote different rules text?

[tonberrian]

Eh, I've heard the the same name, doesn't stack idea, and it just doesn't sit right with me. There are at least 3 "versions" of Insightful Strike that all do fairly different things, for instance, and the swordsage can get two of them by himself fairly easily. Not to mention all the feats with the same name but different effects (okay, I only know of one, but I'm sure there are more).

I'm willing to allow for same rules text, same ability, doesn't stack, myself - so two instances of Divine Grace that share the same rules text (or reference it) are the same, so they shouldn't stack.

Also, whenever you are looking at abilities that add stats to things, make sure to note whether it reads "..add [Stat] [Modifier] to..." or "...add a bonus equal to your [Stat] [Modifier] to...", since the previous modifier does add the stat modifier, and if another source also says to add the stat modifier, they won't stack, even if they come from different abilities.

[Curmudgeon]

The second explicitly rules out Divine Grace stacking if two abilities with the same name are considered to be the same source; unfortunately, I couldn't find a concrete definition of what constitutes a "source."

I'm certain I've seen Curmudgeon say two abilities with the same name are the same source for purposes of stacking, though.
You're right that this hangs on the meaning of the term "source". While there's no explicit definition given in the rules, there are examples of the term in use in the Dungeon Master's Guide, such as this one referencing sneak attack as a source:
Sneak Attack

This is exactly like the rogue ability of the same name. The extra damage dealt increases by +1d6 every other level (2nd, 4th, 6th, 8th, and 10th). If an arcane trickster gets a sneak attack bonus from another source the bonuses on damage stack. Sneak attack is an untyped bonus to damage rolls, so "source" can't have anything to do with type. The only other possibilities here for "source" would be the class name (where Rogue and Arcane Trickster are different, so there would be no reason to bring up stacking), and the sneak attack named ability that's common to these classes. That leads to the conclusion that it's the name which defines a source.

[Tenno Seremel]

Eh, I've heard the the same name, doesn't stack idea, and it just doesn't sit right with me. There are at least 3 "versions" of Insightful Strike that all do fairly different things, for instance, and the swordsage can get two of them by himself fairly easily. Not to mention all the feats with the same name but different effects (okay, I only know of one, but I'm sure there are more).

If you read "does not stack" as "overlaps" there is no problem.

[Douglas]

One of the hardest things in building a high optimization charisma focus character is finding worthwhile charisma focused abilities that are not named Divine Grace.

[tonberrian]

If you read "does not stack" as "overlaps" there is no problem.

It's still stupid.

But, like all rule ambiguities, it's ultimately the DM's call.

[Psyren]

I agree that divine grace and divine grace don't stack. ButDivine Grace and Dark Blessing would - say, if you have a Paladin of Tyranny enter Blackguard.

[Flickerdart]

One of the hardest things in building a high optimization charisma focus character is finding worthwhile charisma focused abilities that are not named Divine Grace.
Mystic Wanderer's ability is called something like "Grace of the Divine" which totally sounds like a cop-out.

[Yorrin]

Bonuses from the same source do not stack. In addition, bonus types with the same name do not stack, unless it's a Dodge bonus, and unnamed bonus, or if the description explicitly says otherwise.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't this completely invalidate the various uses of PAO that I see all over these boards? (eg- PAO into a Beholder to become a Beholder Mage) I know I rule that way at my table (that is- I don't allow multiple PAOs to be in effect on a single creature at a time).

[Flickerdart]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but doesn't this completely invalidate the various uses of PAO that I see all over these boards? (eg- PAO into a Beholder to become a Beholder Mage) I know I rule that way at my table (that is- I don't allow multiple PAOs to be in effect on a single creature at a time).
I cast Resistance to Energy on you, and choose Fire. Then I wait until you walk into some lava, and cast Resistance to Energy on you again, choosing Cold. Do you die?

[Yorrin]

I cast Resistance to Energy on you, and choose Fire. Then I wait until you walk into some lava, and cast Resistance to Energy on you again, choosing Cold. Do you die?

Nope. The Fire resistance stays in effect and you don't gain the benefit of the Cold resistance unless the Fire is dismissed first.

[Flickerdart]

Nope. The Fire resistance stays in effect and you don't gain the benefit of the Cold resistance unless the Fire is dismissed first.
Wrong (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects).

"Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts."

If your ruling was correct, then you could get Bestow Curse cast on yourself with the effect of "must never eat bacon" and then never be subject to any other Curse ever.

[Yorrin]

Wrong (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects).

"Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts."

If your ruling was correct, then you could get Bestow Curse cast on yourself with the effect of "must never eat bacon" and then never be subject to any other Curse ever.

While I realize that my ruling isn't RAW for every spell, it prevents buff/debuff stacking in ways that I feel the rules don't intend. And quite frankly, my players aren't creative enough to defensively debuff themselves like that :smallwink:

But I think you've answered my question, thanks.

[Psyren]

If your ruling was correct, then you could get Bestow Curse cast on yourself with the effect of "must never eat bacon" and then never be subject to any other Curse ever.

Not worth it. At all. :smallyuk:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Not worth it. At all. :smallyuk:Must always consider bacon as a dietary option?

[Psyren]

Must always consider bacon as a dietary option?

But then you lose ice cream! I'll take stat penalties any day.

(Don't bother linking me to bacon ice cream, I'm not even remotely interested :smalltongue:)

[Curmudgeon]

Wrong (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#combiningMagicalEffects).

"Same Effect with Differing Results

The same spell can sometimes produce varying effects if applied to the same recipient more than once. Usually the last spell in the series trumps the others. None of the previous spells are actually removed or dispelled, but their effects become irrelevant while the final spell in the series lasts."
You're drawing the wrong conclusion based on a condensed and misleading version of this rule. The full text (Player's Handbook, page 172) uses Polymorph as an example here, showing that "varying effects" means one that necessarily varies the result of a previous casting, as Polymorph must because you can only have one form at a time. In contrast, Resist Energy (fire) and Resist Energy (cold) are completely compatible and can operate in parallel without varying the result of any previous spell, because your limit on the number of energy resistances is five, as specified in Resist Energy, rather than just one.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

But then you lose ice cream! I'll take stat penalties any day.

(Don't bother linking me to bacon ice cream, I'm not even remotely interested :smalltongue:)Maple bacon ice cream is a popular flavor in Seattle, although IMO the bacon just gets soggy. But really, we should stop before this gets too hostile. I know how people are about their bacon and ice cream (breakfast of cardiac arrest champions).

[Flickerdart]

You're drawing the wrong conclusion based on a condensed and misleading version of this rule. The full text (Player's Handbook, page 172) uses Polymorph as an example here, showing that "varying effects" means one that necessarily varies the result of a previous casting, as Polymorph must because you can only have one form at a time. In contrast, Resist Energy (fire) and Resist Energy (cold) are completely compatible and can operate in parallel without varying the result of any previous spell, because your limit on the number of energy resistances is five, as specified in Resist Energy, rather than just one.
Right, but the point still stands that successive castings of Resist Energy don't cool their heels on the sidelines while the first one soldiers on like a champ, and the same is true for Polymorph.

[tonberrian]

If your ruling was correct, then you could get Bestow Curse cast on yourself with the effect of "must never eat bacon" and then never be subject to any other Curse ever.

On the other hand, with this ruling, you can get Bestow Curse cast on you afterwards with the effect of "must never eat bacon" and that would kill other curses on you. The stacking rules here are stupid that way.

[Person_Man]

Maple bacon ice cream is a popular flavor in Seattle, although IMO the bacon just gets soggy. But really, we should stop before this gets too hostile. I know how people are about their bacon and ice cream (breakfast of cardiac arrest champions).

The best maple bacon ice cream recipes coat their bacon in chocolate (and allow it to dry) or candy them (bake or fry them in sugar) before adding them to the ice cream, which prevents it from getting soggy. Works equally well with smashed ice cream cone bits in ice cream (try Ben and Jerry's "Ameri-cone Dream") or nuts. The technique is really fiddly and takes a lot of practice to perfect. But it can make whatever you cook amazingly crisp, and allows it to stand up to most batters, such as brownies, cookies, bread, or pancakes, etc.

That's right. Candied bacon brownies. The Cockatrice of Cooking! (Which incidentally, sounds like a show on the Food Network that I would love to watch or host).