Versatile Spellcaster on Clerics, Druids

[faceroll]

Anyone ever pick up Versatile Spellcaster on either of these classes? It seems like spontaneity on Druid spells would be killer, since they've got so many really sweet spells that only work situationally and being able to pull one out would be worth the slots.

Also, would you be able to get access to level 4 spells if you only could cast level 3 spells?

[Vladislav]

Also, would you be able to get access to level 4 spells if you only could cast level 3 spells?
For Druids or Clerics? Definitely not. For Beguilers and Dread Necromancers? A hotly contested issue. Depends on how much cheese you like on your burger, I'd say.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

For Druids or Clerics? Definitely not. For Beguilers and Dread Necromancers? A hotly contested issue. Depends on how much cheese you like on your burger, I'd say.

Definitely not? How do you figure? Druids and Clerics explicitly know every spell on their respective lists. Therefore, if they suddenly have access to a 4th level slot with which to cast "any 4th level spell they know" then they have access to said spells.

[faceroll]

Versatile Spellcaster unequivocally works with Dread Necros, &c, if you use heighten spell.

[Vladislav]

Definitely not? How do you figure? Druids and Clerics explicitly know every spell on their respective lists. Therefore, if they suddenly have access to a 4th level slot with which to cast "any 4th level spell they know" then they have access to said spells.Do quote. This better be good.

[KoboldCleric]

I have done this exactly once. A Cleric/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge. It was utterly ridiculous and I shall never consider it again.

[Krazzman]

If you houserule that you can cast spells spontaniously with those classes, it could be useful. But straight for rules....you can't even take it.

[faceroll]

Do quote. This better be good.

"A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation. "
relevant bit bolded

I agree though that it's most definitely not "explicit". There's no language about "knowing".


If you houserule that you can cast spells spontaniously with those classes, it could be useful. But straight for rules....you can't even take it.

Get your PHB out and reread the class features of druids and clerics again. Focus on what they get at level 1. You will see that you are incorrect.

[Vladislav]

I agree though that it's most definitely not "explicit". There's no language about "knowing".My point exactly. Show me something that says a cleric "knows" a spell of a higher level than he could cast.

[2xMachina]

Show me something that says a cleric "knows" a spell he could cast.

EDIT: Unless you mean... it won't work with Cleric/Druids, ever?

[Vladislav]

There is nothing about that too. The concept of "known" spells does not exist in the context of a cleric.

It exists in the context of Sorcerer, Duskblade, etc.

Therefore, a Cleric can not benefit from Versatile Spellcaster, while Duskblade and Sorcerer can.

[2xMachina]

Hmm, interesting.

[faceroll]

Hmm, interesting. I thought the RC cleared up some of the issues of what "knowing a spell meant".

I suppose the prepared divine casters "have access to" or "ability to cast", as opposed to "knowledge of".

Interesting.

[Krazzman]

Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells.

This is the prerec for the feat. But I paraphrase the context about "spontanously" casting of the cleric or druid: It is spontanous cause you give up a for example darkness for a cure spell but you still don't reach the prerec cause you need another type of spell to get this to function (therefore spells). You could use rulebending and say but Cure Light and Cure Moderate are different spells but instead is just a line in how powerful your cure is.

Thats at least my understanding it's like a 10 pound sermon is bigger than an 5 pound sermon but both are still a sermon an therefore you catched only one sort of fish. (The Druid might work out of core, for there are other summon spells on the druid list as i recollect.)

[faceroll]

Prerequisite: Ability to spontaneously cast spells.

This is the prerec for the feat. But I paraphrase the context about "spontanously" casting of the cleric or druid: It is spontanous cause you give up a for example darkness for a cure spell but you still don't reach the prerec cause you need another type of spell to get this to function (therefore spells). You could use rulebending and say but Cure Light and Cure Moderate are different spells but instead is just a line in how powerful your cure is.

Thats at least my understanding it's like a 10 pound sermon is bigger than an 5 pound sermon but both are still a sermon an therefore you catched only one sort of fish. (The Druid might work out of core, for there are other summon spells on the druid list as i recollect.)

Well, that's a nice houserule and stuff, but the short of it is, you're mistaken.

[Wings of Peace]

The real fun happens when we ask "When does spellcasting begin?" I'm away from book right now but the PHB states that the first part of casting a spell is preparing it for prepared casting. By that logic you could use Versatile Spellcaster to let your Cleric/Druid/Whatever create high level slots by building up from their low level slots.

[Sactheminions]

Clerics and Druids are spontaneous casters. Clerics spontaneously cast Cure/Inflict. Druids spontaneously cast SNA. They do in fact meet the prerequisite of the feat. They are able to spontaneously cast spells. In fact, they can cast every spell, every day, spontaneously, if they so choose. And on "healing days" they often do.

Note also:

"A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation."

Versatile spellcaster thereby allows a cleric to case "spells of that level". This isn't complicated. Clerics don't even need heighten spell because they automatically know ALL spells of any level they can cast.

[Sactheminions]

The real fun happens when we ask "When does spellcasting begin?" I'm away from book right now but the PHB states that the first part of casting a spell is preparing it for prepared casting. By that logic you could use Versatile Spellcaster to let your Cleric/Druid/Whatever create high level slots by building up from their low level slots.

"You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher."

No. The feat allows you to begin, and complete, casting of a single spell (in an action). You can't pyramid first level slots into 9th level spells.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

To cast any spell you know via Versatile Spellcaster, you have to spend open spell slots, i.e. only those you left empty when preparing spells. The exception to this would be those specific spells that you can already spontaneously convert prepared spells to cast. It can be useful if you have Spontaneous Domain Casting for a domain with a good spell list.

You could also get a greater benefit from reserve feats such as Touch of Healing and Summon Elemental, and even qualify for those feats earlier than normal.

A Druid with a Ring of the Beast could cast his highest level SNA and have it still count as one higher for what he summons.

[Coidzor]

I have done this exactly once. A Cleric/Sorcerer/Mystic Theurge. It was utterly ridiculous and I shall never consider it again.

Utterly ridiculous to spend two spell slots in order to cast cleric spells that you would've been casting anyway and more of them if you weren't a mystic theurge with sorcerer levels? :smallconfused:

[HunterOfJello]

This isn't complicated. Clerics don't even need heighten spell because they automatically know ALL spells of any level they can cast.

The fact that clerics and druid possess the necessary prerequisites to obtain the feat is obvious. However, their use of the feat is complicated when applied to prepared casters.

Using the specific language of the feat's text along with the Sorcerer's spellcasting information, we can see that Sorcerers learn spells and then, "he can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time." The same use of the word 'know' is used in the Favored Soul, Shugenja, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, and Warmage spellcasting descriptions. Each of the classes have descriptions that specifically define what spells that each class knows by using the word 'know'.

The same definition is notably absent on the Druid and Cleric listings. They both have Spontaneous Casting entries that mention the manner in which they can spontaneously convert prepared spells in order to cast SNA, cure, or inflict spells, but that does not mean that they "know" those spells or that they "know" the equivalent spells that are one level higher.

The complication is that while the classes can convert spells spontaneously, what could they actually convert them up to if they have the Versatile Spellcaster feat? Their class listings don't define them as knowing their spell lists and only say that they may prepare spells from those lists. Their spontaneous casting listings say that they may convert spells in that manner, but the Versatile Spellcaster feat specifically requires them to know the higher level spell they are going to cast. What spells are you arguing that a cleric or druid could use versatile spellcaster to cast then?

If anyone has more specific information on where spells known are defined for prepared casters I'm interested in seeing it.

[Drachasor]

In the PHB glossary, "known spells" is defined as applying ONLY to arcane casters. Obviously later books apply it to other casters, but by the PHB at least it doesn't have anything to do with Clerics or Druids.

[HunterOfJello]

Utterly ridiculous to spend two spell slots in order to cast cleric spells that you would've been casting anyway and more of them if you weren't a mystic theurge with sorcerer levels? :smallconfused:

He probably used a Human with Versatile Spellcaster and Highten Spell so that his DM would count him as being able to cast 2nd level spells at level 2. He could then enter Mystic Theurge at level 3 and only be 1 level behind in both classes while progressing the spellcasting of both.

I think the only utterly ridiculous part of playing that way is you end up avoiding fun prestige classes. The only way I'd be tempted to play a dual progression caster is as an Arcane Heirophant so that I could ride around on a familiar companion T-Rex that bites people with its huge jaws in order to activate my touch spells.

[Drachasor]

He probably used a Human with Versatile Spellcaster and Highten Spell so that his DM would count him as being able to cast 2nd level spells at level 2. He could then enter Mystic Theurge at level 3 and only be 1 level behind in both classes while progressing the spellcasting of both.

I think the only utterly ridiculous part of playing that way is you end up avoiding fun prestige classes. The only way I'd be tempted to play a dual progression caster is as an Arcane Heirophant so that I could ride around on a familiar companion T-Rex that bites people with its huge jaws in order to activate my touch spells.

I wanted to go Arcane Heirophant, but my DM/group wouldn't let me. They felt I'd be more powerful than a standard druid. I didn't really think so, since my spells, wildshape, etc would all be weaker -- I argued I'd overall lose power, but it would feel cooler. Since I was already godly powerful, they didn't want to risk it though.

[TwylyghT]

I wanted to go Arcane Heirophant, but my DM/group wouldn't let me. They felt I'd be more powerful than a standard druid. I didn't really think so, since my spells, wildshape, etc would all be weaker -- I argued I'd overall lose power, but it would feel cooler. Since I was already godly powerful, they didn't want to risk it though.

Yeah because compared to a what a regular druid can do, an animal companion burping up a lightning bolt a few times a day, is so totally broken right? :smallwink:

[Vladislav]

Clerics and Druids are spontaneous casters. Clerics spontaneously cast Cure/Inflict. Druids spontaneously cast SNA. They do in fact meet the prerequisite of the feat. They are able to spontaneously cast spells. In fact, they can cast every spell, every day, spontaneously, if they so choose. And on "healing days" they often do.

Note also:

"A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list, provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation."

Versatile spellcaster thereby allows a cleric to case "spells of that level". This isn't complicated. Clerics don't even need heighten spell because they automatically know ALL spells of any level they can cast.Whether is not this is compicated, you got it completely wrong. Clerics don't "know" any spells at all. They can "prepare and cast" spells, but they don't "know" them.

In D&D, "known spells" is a very specific term, that applies only to Sorcerers and similar classes. It does not apply to Clerics and Druids.

One thing you're right about, however, is the fact that, yes, Clerics and Druids meet the prerequisite for Versatile Spellcaster, and can take the feat. It just doesn't do anything for them.

[dextercorvia]

Whether is not this is compicated, you got it completely wrong. Clerics don't "know" any spells at all. They can "prepare and cast" spells, but they don't "know" them.

In D&D, "known spells" is a very specific term, that applies only to Sorcerers and similar classes. It does not apply to Clerics and Druids.

One thing you're right about, however, is the fact that, yes, Clerics and Druids meet the prerequisite for Versatile Spellcaster, and can take the feat. It just doesn't do anything for them.

Known spells also applies to at least one prepared arcane class. I'll give you a hint. It starts with a W. and ends with an izard.

[Vladislav]

Since a Wizard lacks a prerequisite for Versatile spellcaster, he's not pertinent to this debate to begin with. For future reference, you could be slightly less smug when introducing a point that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

PS: If that wasn't enough, a Wizard has no "spell slots" and thus cannot "use two spell slots of the same level".

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Since a Wizard lacks a prerequisite for Versatile spellcaster, he's not pertinent to this debate to begin with. For future reference, you could be slightly less smug when introducing a point that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Spontaneous Divination.

[dextercorvia]

Since a Wizard lacks a prerequisite for Versatile spellcaster, he's not pertinent to this debate to begin with. For future reference, you could be slightly less smug when introducing a point that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

For future reference, you could check facts before making sweeping statements.

Also, Biff got there faster, but Wizard has at least three ways to meet the prereq.

[Vladislav]

If that wasn't enough, a Wizard has no "spell slots" and thus cannot "use two spell slots of the same level".

[KoboldCleric]

He probably used a Human with Versatile Spellcaster and Highten Spell so that his DM would count him as being able to cast 2nd level spells at level 2. He could then enter Mystic Theurge at level 3 and only be 1 level behind in both classes while progressing the spellcasting of both.

I think the only utterly ridiculous part of playing that way is you end up avoiding fun prestige classes. The only way I'd be tempted to play a dual progression caster is as an Arcane Heirophant so that I could ride around on a familiar companion T-Rex that bites people with its huge jaws in order to activate my touch spells.

Close. It was actually a kobold, so I didn't lose any sorcerer casting. And I have since discovered that the group is largely comfortable playing around tier 4. I felt rather out of place.

[sreservoir]

If that wasn't enough, a Wizard has no "spell slots" and thus cannot "use two spell slots of the same level".

of course they do. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/glossary&term=Glossary_dnd_spellslot&alpha=)

your reading would make mage of the arcane order entirely useless for anyone other than spontaneous arcane casters with arcane preparation. clearly, wizards are at least intended to have spell slots; in reality, they do anyway.

[Wabbajack]

If that wasn't enough, a Wizard has no "spell slots" and thus cannot "use two spell slots of the same level".

Wizards do have spell slots. That's what they prepare their spells in.
See Player's Handbook p.78

[sreservoir]

Wizards do have spell slots. That's what they prepare their spells in.
See Player's Handbook p.78

178. 78 is in skills.

[Elric VIII]

Known spells also applies to at least one prepared arcane class. I'll give you a hint. It starts with a W. and ends with an izard.

No love for the Wu-Jen?


Since a Wizard lacks a prerequisite for Versatile spellcaster, he's not pertinent to this debate to begin with. For future reference, you could be slightly less smug when introducing a point that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

PS: If that wasn't enough, a Wizard has no "spell slots" and thus cannot "use two spell slots of the same level".


For future reference, you could check facts before making sweeping statements.

Also, Biff got there faster, but Wizard has at least three ways to meet the prereq.

The Wizard actually has at least five ways to do this:

Alacritous Cogitation (CM): Wizards gain 1 spontaneous spell slot/day.
Nexus Method (Dragon 319): Convert non-conjuration spells into SM X of the same level.
Spontaneous Divination (CC): Replace 5th level bonus feat for the ability to spontaneously cast divination spells.
Spontaneous Summoning (UA): Convert spells to a lower-level SMX spell.
Uncanny Forethought (EoE): Spontaneously convert to Spell Mastery spells. Full round action to cast any spell you know.

Who needs Sorcerers anyway?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Keep in mind, prepared spell =/= spell slot. Unless you keep spell slots empty when preparing spells, you do not have any spell slots available to use Versatile Spellcaster. As I said earlier, the exception to this would be those specific spells which you can spontaneously convert prepared spells to cast.

[dextercorvia]

No love for the Wu-Jen?

They can too, but the feat Spell Mastery is wizard only, and is the strongest and most ready evidence that I can think of off the top of my head.



The Wizard actually has at least four ways to do this:

Alacritous Cogitation (CM): Wizards gain 1 spontaneous spell slot/day.
Nexus Method (Dragon 319): Convert non-conjuration spells into SM X of the same level.
Spontaneous Divination (CC): Replace 5th level bonus feat for the ability to spontaneously cast divination spells.
Uncanny Forethought (EoE): Spontaneously convert to Spell Mastery spells. Full round action to cast any spell you know.

Who needs Sorcerers anyway?

Yeah, there are plenty of ways. Being from Dragon Mag., I didn't think of Nexus Method. Some of the others require too much investment to be worth it, since all of the above are low hanging fruit.

Magical Training (PGtF) works as well for the cost of one feat.

For Clerics and Druids:


New Divine Spells

Divine spellcasters most frequently gain new spells in one of the following two ways.
Spells Gained at a New Level

Characters who can cast divine spells undertake a certain amount of study between adventures. Each time such a character receives a new level of divine spells, he or she learns new spells from that level automatically.

Learned spells are spells known.

[Elric VIII]

Yeah, there are plenty of ways. Being from Dragon Mag., I didn't think of Nexus Method. Some of the others require too much investment to be worth it, since all of the above are low hanging fruit.

Magical Training (PGtF) works as well for the cost of one feat.

That makes number 6, I ninja edited you there. I forgot the awful UA Conjurer variant.

[dextercorvia]

That makes number 6, I ninja edited you there. I forgot the awful UA Conjurer variant.

Are we trying to be exhaustive? The Spontaneous X (CD) feats can be applied to a Wizard after an appropriate method (such as Arcane Disciple) of getting some of them as spells known. There is the feat Signature Spell (PGtF) which you may need to take more than once depending on plurality arguements.