Damage reduction and sneak attack

[Devronq]

A while back I was arguing with one of my players that when you sneak attck if the initial damage from the weapon doesn't deal atleast 1point of damage than you don't get the bonus damage from the sneak attack. The rule compendium says if an attack doesn't deal any damage than any secondary effects such as poison and disease don't work ether, does this include sneak attack. Basically what im asking if I dont deal damage, because of damage reduction or otherwise, I don't get sneak attack right?

[Amphetryon]

A while back I was arguing with one of my players that when you sneak attck if the initial damage from the weapon doesn't deal atleast 1point of damage than you don't get the bonus damage from the sneak attack. The rule compendium says if an attack doesn't deal any damage than any secondary effects such as poison and disease don't work ether, does this include sneak attack. Basically what im asking if I dont deal damage, because of damage reduction or otherwise, I don't get sneak attack right?In your campaign world? Sure. Your sandbox, your rules. By RAW? I don't think SA cares about DR in that fashion.

[tyckspoon]

Sneak Attack isn't a 'secondary effect' of doing damage. It's bonus damage when you hit, and it's not applied separately from the weapon damage. So, no, Damage Reduction doesn't hamper your Sneak Attack unless you roll low enough that the Damage Reduction absorbs the Sneak Attack dice as well.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Basically what im asking if I dont deal damage, because of damage reduction or otherwise, I don't get sneak attack right?

Where'd you get that idea? :smallconfused:

[Keld Denar]

I could see drawings some corrilation. If you strike with a poisoned blade (coated with injury poison), and you fail to overcome DR, the foe is not subject to the poison. No injury, no poison.

Sneak Attack doesn't follow this logic though. SA damage is the same "damage" as weapon damage, Str damage, and other forms of non-energy bonus damage. You don't check the bonus damage you get from Str alone vs DR. It all gets lumped into a pool of "damage", which is then compared to the DR.

The only thing this doesn't apply to is energy type damage, such as that from a flaming weapon or similar, and then only because such damage doesn't even check DR, but rather energy resistances.

[Devronq]

The problem I have is, I can pick a peice of foam up and stab someone in the back with it and still receive my sneak attack bonus, even thought the weapon is harmless?

[Keld Denar]

No. You have to be wielding the weapon in an optimal manner. You can't suffer from non-proficiency penalties or improvised weapon penalties and still deliver SA damage. Just like you couldn't SA for non-lethal damage with a sword (or lethal damage with a sap), you couldn't SA someone with a piece of foam you found lying in the trash.

[Amphetryon]

The problem I have is, I can pick a peice of foam up and stab someone in the back with it and still receive my sneak attack bonus, even thought the weapon is harmless?Your analogy is flawed in that DR doesn't turn a weapon to foam, and in that you're allowed, RAW, to use SA with a Sap, which only does subdual damage, just as a hypothetical foam weapon should.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The problem I have is, I can pick a peice of foam up and stab someone in the back with it and still receive my sneak attack bonus, even thought the weapon is harmless?

Using SA on something with DR is like finding a soft point in their skin which you can stick your pointy object into.

[SowZ]

The problem I have is, I can pick a peice of foam up and stab someone in the back with it and still receive my sneak attack bonus, even thought the weapon is harmless?

Also, weapons that deal non-lethal damage deal non-lethal sneak attack damage.

[TwylyghT]

Using SA on something with DR is like finding a soft point in their skin which you can stick your pointy object into.

Did I accidentally log into the BoEF forum again? :smalleek:

[Cog]

Did I accidentally log into the BoEF forum again? :smalleek:
I hope not. That sounded more like cephalopod habits than humanoid.

[LaughingRogue]

Congrats, in your world rogues basically do no damage.

[deuxhero]

No. You have to be wielding the weapon in an optimal manner. You can't suffer from non-proficiency penalties or improvised weapon penalties and still deliver SA damage. Just like you couldn't SA for non-lethal damage with a sword (or lethal damage with a sap), you couldn't SA someone with a piece of foam you found lying in the trash.

Which is stupid (par for WotC sure...), as shivs are worthless for SAers then...

[Starbuck_II]

Which is stupid (par for WotC sure...), as shivs are worthless for SAers then...

Shivs are improvised daggers (or actual). Yes, you can sneak attack with them.
He is saying Foam never deals damage (purpose of foam) so you can't snesk attack with it.

[Cog]

Which is stupid (par for WotC sure...), as shivs are worthless for SAers then...
To wield a shiv proficiently would be to betray the very essence of its shivness, and so wielding a shiv in an improvised fashion is by definition wielding it in an optimal manner. Therefore, it's valid for SA.

[Aethir]

I'm unable to find anything that says you have to be proficient with a weapon to sneak attack, and I've only found one thing directly addressing it which states that you can do so non-proficient.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a

[SowZ]

Also, the last thing rogues need is a nerf. Especially when a dagger wielding straight rogue focused on Dex is maybe doing d4+1 damage, so anything with a DR higher than 5 is totally immune to the rogue. That's not fair to the player, and makes straight Dex based dagger wielding rogue, (the traditional, archetypical rogue,) practically unplayable in most campaigns without real limiting of enemy creature types or some real optimization past level four or so. I don't mean, 'unplayable like a fighter,' (who can still be a very reasonable party addition up to about level ten in a low op game,) but literally 'sits-on-his-thumbs-unable-to-affect-anything.'

[Thespianus]

Also, the last thing rogues need is a nerf.

Talking about "nerf" in a discussion about foam? I see what you did there. Nice. ;)

[Starbuck_II]

The rule compendium says if an attack doesn't deal any damage than any secondary effects such as poison and disease don't work ether, does this include sneak attack.

You aren't reading the rule correct either. Only injury poison is blocked by DR (because he isn't injured).

Smear some Contact poison on the weapon (DMG says you can as well) and DR doesn't block the poison.