Master of Masks from Complete Scoundrel

[Safety Sword]

Hi Playgrounders,
I would like some opinions on Master of Masks class from Complete Scoundrel.

I will admit to be intrigued with the concept, but I'm struggling to find a real use for the class.

Not having a spell casting requirement and advancing existing spell casting also seems a little off to me.

So, anyway, chime in with any opinions or uses of the class or your experiences with it, even.

[Flickerdart]

A 1-level dip for all the exotic weapons ever is very shiny, as some of them (kaorti resin weapons, spiked chains, bladed whips, great crossbows, footbows, gnomish calculi) are actually pretty good. Other than that, I've never seen it used.

[Amphetryon]

Person_Man's Haberdasher build is well-known around these parts for using the Gladiator Mask to prod serious buttock.

Master of Masks (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156876) has also been used in the Iron Chef contests here, which typically focus on less-than-ideal PrCs. The link may have some inspiration for you.

[TheJake]

Interesting concept, crap execution.

- J.

[Coidzor]

Person_Man's Haberdasher build is well-known around these parts for using the Gladiator Mask to prod serious buttock.

Haberdash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633) the link for ya.

Rather like the idea, but find the execution to be underwhelming, especially in light of the Chameleon.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

If my reading is right you can get crazy abilities when you use it in combination with spellthief.

[HunterOfJello]

If my reading is right you can get crazy abilities when you use it in combination with spellthief.

like what?

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Steal SLA at level 5 and things like the High Priest, Archmage (at high levels), Angel, and Demon masks. You steal your own SLA and use it on yourself. There might be a problem with the last line in Steal SLA but I'm sure there is a work around.

[Person_Man]

Steal SLA at level 5 and things like the High Priest, Archmage (at high levels), Angel, and Demon masks. You steal your own SLA and use it on yourself. There might be a problem with the last line in Steal SLA but I'm sure there is a work around.

To my knowledge, there isn't. It's pretty much a one level PrC. But if you can think of another RAW or even RAI use, I'd be intrigued.

[Lateral]

To my knowledge, there isn't. It's pretty much a one level PrC. But if you can think of another RAW or even RAI use, I'd be intrigued.

Why one level? Spellthief 19 seems pretty pointless to me; a second level loses you nothing since it advances spellthief casting, and gets you an extra mask.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

When you use Steal SLA the question is if you steal your own SLA can you still use it, because you lose the ability to use it but gain the ability to use it from Spellthief?

[Person_Man]

Why one level? Spellthief 19 seems pretty pointless to me; a second level loses you nothing since it advances spellthief casting, and gets you an extra mask.

I was referring to Master of Masks as being a one level prestige class, for access to the Gladiator Mask, and not the Spellthief. Again, I do not believe that there is any RAW or RAI synergy between Master of Masks and Spellthief.

Also, if you're going to be playing at ECL 10 or higher and want proficiency with all exotic weapons, I suggest using Binder instead of Master of Masks, as The Triad vestige also grants proficiency with all exotic weapons. There's also the Master's Touch spell, or you could just eat the -4 penalty to hit.

[Trouvere]

The masks are actual physical objects, not metaphorical, right?

[kestrel404]

When you use Steal SLA the question is if you steal your own SLA can you still use it, because you lose the ability to use it but gain the ability to use it from Spellthief?

Unfortunately, the text is very clear that the target of 'steal SLA' cannot use the SLA any more - which means you (the target) cannot use the SLA you've stolen. More importantly, the text is UNCLEAR on whether they lose a use of that SLA (for abilities that have, for example, 1 use per day) - and as a GM, I'd say that would definitely be the case. So you'd steal an ability from yourself and lose the use of that ability because you'd be unable to use it while it's stolen, and afterwards, you'd have 1 fewer uses of it. That's my interpretation, another GM may read it differently.

As for the Master of Masks in general, it suffers from a really huge issue - all of those abilities you get from masks are basically 1-shot and done. If the class had been 8/10 casting, or full BAB, or even 8 skill points with all class skills I would recommend it as a decent class. As it stands, I cannot see any good reason not to be a chameleon instead.

[Amphetryon]

The masks are actual physical objects, not metaphorical, right?
Yes. Relevant link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=3). It's why there was a wide variety of opinion in the IC contest as to whether VoP worked with them or not.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I am AFB right now but I don't think Steal SLA actually reduces the amount of uses of the SLA that the original creature can use. Also the work around I was thinking about was taking off the mask, which is what grants the SLA. I need to look at it more, but to me it seems logical to me that you lose the ability to use the SLA as normal but then gain the ability to use it via the Steal SLA ability (that's just me though).

[kestrel404]

I am AFB right now but I don't think Steal SLA actually reduces the amount of uses of the SLA that the original creature can use. Also the work around I was thinking about was taking off the mask, which is what grants the SLA. I need to look at it more, but to me it seems logical to me that you lose the ability to use the SLA as normal but then gain the ability to use it via the Steal SLA ability (that's just me though).

On a more critical re-reading, the implication that the ability is stolen/uses per day is decreased is actually pretty slim. It reads more like as long as the target has 1 use per day left, he can lend that use to the spellthief any number of times - which is interesting and I bet there are a number of Improved Familiar abilities that would make that a really nasty trick. Even better with summoned monster abilities.

However, as for using an ability you've stolen from yourself, losing the ability to use that SLA after it's stolen does not in any way remove the effect that prevents you from using that ability - it's attached to the 'target of the steal SLA', and that's still you (not your mask, it's a class feature, not a magic item).


Until the spellthief uses the ability (or
until the minute elapses), the target cannot use the stolen
ability.

[Godskook]

It's a great class to know about, but rarely will you take more than 1-2 levels in it. I could see it working quite well in a gish build when you want Warblade as your base warrior, such as:

Warblade 1/Wizard 4/MoMasks 2/Knight Phantom 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 1(or 4)/Whatever

Ending with 17+2 CL and 16 BAB(+1 here too). The second MoMasks level comes at a point when you don't qualify for any of the standard gish prestige classes, and Warblade is quite desirable for easy access to the Diamond Mind save-replacement maneuvers.

(If Eberron isn't available, Eldritch Knight replaces Knight Phantom, but these are the only two full BAB prestige classes that offer 9/10 casting, which can serve as filler later on, when you run out of other full-casting prestige classes).

[Flickerdart]

Do you even qualify for Eldritch Knight? Unless Abjurant Champion gives you all martial weapons, you don't meet that requirement.

[Godskook]

Do you even qualify for Eldritch Knight? Unless Abjurant Champion gives you all martial weapons, you don't meet that requirement.

Master of Masks gives you all the weapon proficiencies you'll ever need, and you enter Abjurant Champion after you enter EK or PK, meaning that the proficiencies from AbChamp are useless for that purpose.

[Jude_H]

I've had good results with it in a near-epic campaign. The build was:
Warlock 1/Duskblade 3/Warblade 1/Chameleon 7/MoM 8 (advancing chameleon)

It was definitely the Chameleon that carried the build, though.

[Godskook]

I've had good results with it in a near-epic campaign. The build was:
Warlock 1/Duskblade 3/Warblade 1/Chameleon 7/MoM 8 (advancing chameleon)

It was definitely the Chameleon that carried the build, though.

What was your role on the battlefield?

[wuwuwu]

On a more critical re-reading, the implication that the ability is stolen/uses per day is decreased is actually pretty slim. It reads more like as long as the target has 1 use per day left, he can lend that use to the spellthief any number of times - which is interesting and I bet there are a number of Improved Familiar abilities that would make that a really nasty trick. Even better with summoned monster abilities.

However, as for using an ability you've stolen from yourself, losing the ability to use that SLA after it's stolen does not in any way remove the effect that prevents you from using that ability - it's attached to the 'target of the steal SLA', and that's still you (not your mask, it's a class feature, not a magic item).

Reading this as a computer programmer... it seems like the stolen SLA would be a new SLA, and not the same as the original one, thus the scheme would work.

Like this:

Have SLA ->Steal SLA from self->Get an SLA that is identical to the stolen SLA, but is not the same instance of the stolen SLA->Can't use old SLA, can use new SLA

[Godskook]

Reading this as a computer programmer... it seems like the stolen SLA would be a new SLA, and not the same as the original one, thus the scheme would work.

Unless the SLA is a single object and what's actually being passed around is a reference to that object, rather than creating a new object for the second PC to have. Depends on the amount of privacy desired/required in that particular region of the coding. Would be more efficient that way in terms of memory usage(only one actual object so less space used), as well as processing speed(no need to generate new objects, just pass a reference variable).

[Jude_H]

What was your role on the battlefield?
It was basically a Chameleon gish with arcane channeling and a couple of the mask options - typically the Assassin and Angel masks, but Gladiator and Lord also saw a couple uses.

I was typically the BSF; my two main round-1 shticks were:
Contingency(Bite of the Werebear)+Knight's Move or Lion's Charge+Assassin Mask+Craven(floating) -> Damage
or
Contingency(Righteous Might) + Swift Flight(Mask) + Power Attack + Channeled Combust or Poison -> Damage

Thematically, the character was a Master of Masks; level-wise the character was mostly a MoM; Chameleon was really the engine, though.

[Talionis]

One of the builds in the Iron Chef builds for Master of Masks used an Artificer to add magical abilities to each mask and then made use of the Master of Masks ability to change masks as an immediate action. I think would be neat to add ToB manuevers to the Warrior mask through crafting.

I agree a lot of things could've helped to fix it, in a lot of different directions (as said, more BAB, more caster advancing, more skills, etc). But three things that I suggest if you were going to look at house rules to change stuff.

I wonder if the class would be better if you had access to more masks? Like starting with two masks and then adding an additional mask at each level. That would grant you a whole lot of SLA's. They made a lot of masks and it would give people more reason to use and take some of the less good masks for their utility.

I always thought that for a class that seems intended to be able to act/pretend to be other kinds of characters having to perform in a visible mask until Hidden Mask at level 6 is a little off. I would have put it at level 2. (I realize that spells can cover up the mask maybe you can disquise yourself wearing the mask, but I like the non-casting focus)

Its also hard, not very hard, but hard to get into the class because of the skill prerequisites that many classes may have trouble meeting.

But if people have interesting ways to use this prestige class, even if it is more role play or narrow, I'm glad to see them.

[sreservoir]

Unless the SLA is a single object and what's actually being passed around is a reference to that object, rather than creating a new object for the second PC to have. Depends on the amount of privacy desired/required in that particular region of the coding. Would be more efficient that way in terms of memory usage(only one actual object so less space used), as well as processing speed(no need to generate new objects, just pass a reference variable).

eh, for that to make sense, you'd have to keep track of each use as a separate SLA, rather than just keeping track of the number of times it can be used. or fiddling with an "ability" which has uses and effect, and an "effect" which specifies what actually happens.

actually, can we just go back to thinking normally?

[Tvtyrant]

I think the class would be improved if it just gave you all the masks upfront; they aren't overpowering and the mechanic would be much better. That and make it an Incarnum prestige class that makes mystical ghost masks that bind to the brow chakra and advance your essentia and meldshapes.

[Frosty]

eh, for that to make sense, you'd have to keep track of each use as a separate SLA, rather than just keeping track of the number of times it can be used. or fiddling with an "ability" which has uses and effect, and an "effect" which specifies what actually happens.

actually, can we just go back to thinking normally?
It's really simple. When you steal an SLA, you get a pointer to the target's SLA function, and YOU get to choose when to call the function, and its parameters. :smallwink:

[Coidzor]

Definitely multiple directions it could be taken, aye.

[BobVosh]

It's really simple. When you steal an SLA, you get a pointer to the target's SLA function, and YOU get to choose when to call the function, and its parameters. :smallwink:

This would allow you to call it more often, by passing the pointer with enough spellthievery. Unless the counter is kept internally, in the function.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

IIRC, one of the contestants in the Iron Chef Optimizers contest has found a cute trick with masks and Artificer...

[Person_Man]

I think the class would be improved if it just gave you all the masks upfront; they aren't overpowering and the mechanic would be much better. That and make it an Incarnum prestige class that makes mystical ghost masks that bind to the brow chakra and advance your essentia and meldshapes.

That's actually a fairly good idea. But that would still basically make it a 1 level prestige class. Take 1 level to gain access to all of the Masks, and then head back into Incarnate or Totemist or Ironsoul Forgemaster to get other benefits. One way or another, you'd basically have to re-write the entire class.

[Draz74]

That's actually a fairly good idea. But that would still basically make it a 1 level prestige class. Take 1 level to gain access to all of the Masks, and then head back into Incarnate or Totemist or Ironsoul Forgemaster to get other benefits. One way or another, you'd basically have to re-write the entire class.

Well, except that most of the masks have a variable effect depending on your Master of Masks level.