White Raven, Maneuvers, and intiator questions.

[The Underlord]

So I have some questions on ToB
1. Why do people say people will love you if you use white raven?
2. Are their any maneveurs you can full attack with?
3. Is their epic progression for ToB classes?

[hamishspence]

White Raven has many maneuvers that grant a free move, free attack, or both, to allies, among other things.

Some maneuvers have a lot of attacks built into the manuever, which replaces the full attack option. Also, there are boosts, which can be done before a full attack.

There is no epic progression- players and the DM have to make their own up.

[Runestar]

1) White raven typically involved benefitting your party members in some way, be it granting them extra actions or attack bonuses. Who doesn't love being told they can take an extra full round action for that turn, or receiving attack/damage bonuses?

2) Some, you need to read the individual descriptions. Offhand, I can think of pouncing charge and time stands still.

3) Not that I am aware of.

[Lateral]

So I have some questions on ToB
You picked the right board, then.


1. Why do people say people will love you if you use white raven?
White Raven is a school based on boosting the efficiency of your party's melee attackers. It makes your party love you similarly to how they love Bards because bards give them considerable bonuses with Inspire Courage.


2. Are their any maneveurs you can full attack with?
Well, it depends on what you mean. There are all the different boosts, which are swift actions and can be used with a full attack, and there are maneuvers which let you make a full attack with some bonuses (one example is Time Stands Still, which lets you make two full attacks), so if that's what you meant then yes. If you meant 'are there maneuvers that can be used as part of a full attack', then no, I don't believe so.


3. Is their epic progression for ToB classes?
Not an official one. ToB came out near the end of 3.5's run, so they got very little direct splat support. They also came long after the ELH, so they were never given an epic progression.

[Douglas]

2) Some, you need to read the individual descriptions. Offhand, I can think of pouncing charge and time stands still.
There's also Flashing Sun. And those three maneuvers are the entire list of full attack strikes in the book.

Aside from those three specific strikes, only boosts are compatible with full attacks "out of the box". If you have Pounce, such as from a dip in Barbarian for a certain ACF from Complete Champion, then any strike that includes a charge will also give you a full attack. The list of charging strikes is pretty long.

[Darrin]

There's also Flashing Sun. And those three maneuvers are the entire list of full attack strikes in the book.


Not so. Most of the 9th-level maneuvers and charge-related strikes tend to be full-round actions:

Flashing Sun (DW2)
Desert Tempest (DW6)
Ring of Fire (DW6)
Salamander Charge (DW7)
Inferno Blast (DW9)
Doom Charge (DS5)
Law Bearer (DS5)
Radiant Charge (DS5)
Tide of chaos (DS5)
Divine Surge, Greater (DS8)
Bounding Assault (DM4)
Avalanche of Blades (DM7)
Time Stands Still (DM9)
Tornado Throw (SS9)
Stalker in the Night (SH6)
Charging Minotaur (SD1)
Boulder Roll (SD4)
Mountain Avalanche (SD5)
Pouncing Charge (TC5)
Wolf Climbs the Mountain (TC6)
Feral Deathblow (TC9)
Battle Leader's Charge (WR2)
War Leader's Charge (WR6)
War Master's Charge (WR9)

[Douglas]

Not so. Most of the 9th-level maneuvers and charge-related strikes tend to be full-round actions:
I said "full attack", not "full-round action". As in "make a number of attacks based on your BAB, possibly modified by things like Haste and two-weapon fighting".

[shadow_archmagi]

Actually, just offhand, you *can* use multiple manuevers in one round as long as they don't conflict, right?

(IE: Use X manuever as a swift action, X as a move, and X as a standard?)

[Greenish]

Actually, just offhand, you *can* use multiple manuevers in one round as long as they don't conflict, right?

(IE: Use X manuever as a swift action, X as a move, and X as a standard?)Yeah, the actions (and maneuvers readied) are the limits of maneuver use. Offhand, I can only think of one maneuver that can activated as a move action, but still.

[Elric VIII]

Yeah, the actions (and maneuvers readied) are the limits of maneuver use. Offhand, I can only think of one maneuver that can activated as a move action, but still.

Shadow Stride and Order Forged From Chaos are about it.

[Runestar]

I said "full attack", not "full-round action". As in "make a number of attacks based on your BAB, possibly modified by things like Haste and two-weapon fighting".

Well, I suppose that if you had pounce from another source...:smallbiggrin:

[Godskook]

So I have some questions on ToB
1. Why do people say people will love you if you use white raven?

A brief selection of WR maneuvers:
Leading the attack: If you hit, allies get bonus on attack rolls against target
Leading the charge: Nearby allies gain bonus damage on charge
Bolstering Voice: Nearby allies gain bonus to will saves
Tactical Strike: If you hit, allies move 5'
Tactics of the Wolf: Bonus damage to allies when they flank with you


2. Are their any maneveurs you can full attack with?

All boosts and stances, as well as a very short list of strikes. Most strikes are meant to be there as options for when you can't full attack, rather than when you can.


3. Is their epic progression for ToB classes?

Krimm Blackleaf did a homebrew on this, and at the time, was among the top tier homebrewers of this forum. I'm not on homebrew enough to know if he still holds the title or if obcurity has claimed his reputation by now. Specifically:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95516
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95435
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122190

[navar100]

Actually, just offhand, you *can* use multiple manuevers in one round as long as they don't conflict, right?

(IE: Use X manuever as a swift action, X as a move, and X as a standard?)

I still remember one particular round of combat with my crusader/master of nine.

Swift Action - White Raven Tactics on party member
Move Action - Shadow Stride to teleport next to a bad guy 40ft away
Standard Action - Attacked with Greater Insightful Strike maneuver, automatically hitting because I was in Aura of Perfect Order stance, thus autorolled an 11 which was enough to beat the bad guy's AC.

That was FUN!