Melee rogue frailty.

[Pigkappa]

Useless party configuration:

I'm playing in a level 11 campaign with low/medium optimization. The party is currently 1 Druid (with the UA variant to be less OP), 2 Clerics (I am one of them; no DMM, no rules abuse, many good spells are banned), 1 Wizard (quite awful; the player is new to d&d), 1 Frenzied Berseker (no Pounce, no Leap Attack).

Even if I have good HPs and good saves, I'm often close to death. I'm usually the one fighting with the Frenzied Berseker when necessary, since I've got more HPs than the other cleric. Last time I reached 100 wounds out of 103 HPs.


As a new character, I'd like to play a melee rogue since I've never played one. The quite obvious combo would be Rogue/Swashbuckler and the DM has approved it.

However, I can't see how to survive in melee with such a character. Since it is quite MAD (Dex is necessary, possibly Cha and Int), I won't have very high HPs. I would also have not really high AC (likely +6 Dex, +1 Size, +6 enchanted Armor, +1 deviation, +1 natural armor = 25, lower than the Druid and Cleric), and I would be attacked quite often since I'd have to be in melee dealing a lot of damage. The saves are quite awful too. Will save in particular.

How could such a rogue survive for a long time? We've experienced several deaths already with characters tougher than that.

[Runestar]

Easiest answer is ask the wizard to specialise in battlefield control and disable/debuff the heck out of your foes. For example, a blinded foe (via glitterdust) has a 50% miss chance against you, and you can SA him with impunity. Or if he is nauseated/grappled/whatever, he can't even attack at all!

[Feytalist]

Like aforementioned, but rather with wands of blur/blink/displacement/mirror image/etc. Expensive but better than nothing. Hit negation is usually better than straight up armour.

[Pigkappa]

Yeah but using 1 standard action in each fight to activate them doesn't sound too good either :(.

Also, level 3 wand = 750 * 3 * 5 gp > 10k gp. Really expensive.

[JKTrickster]

You should look into the Daring Outlaw feat from Complete Scoundrel - it'll really help make Rogue/Swashbuckler work really well.

As for defenses, that's what you spend gold on. I know it kind of sucks, but that's how I would do it. A ring of blinking right?

Alternatively get the Wizard/Cleric/Druid to buff you up - you buy them Pearls of Power of course :smallbiggrin:

[Darrin]

How could such a rogue survive for a long time? We've experienced several deaths already with characters tougher than that.

I'd focus on Miss Chance. Check out Person_Man's Adept of Darkness (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57352), maybe combined with At Home in the Deep feat, Devil's Sight invocation, or the Baator domain power.

Smoking weapon (Lords of Darkness) offers continuous concealment for about 8300 GP (and a save vs. nausea effect if you want to get into grappling).

There's also the old Ring of Blinking/Pierce Magical Concealment combo. Expensive and costs 3 feats, but very nifty.

Incarnum is definitely worth a look. Fellmist Robe is kinda meh but the Umbral Disciple PrC's Embrace the Shadow (Su) is awesomesauce on toast: 20%/30%/40% concealment with a HiPS cherry on top.

For your Will save:

First, see if the Detached trait (UA, +1 Will save/-1 Ref save) is available.

Check out the Otyugh Hole (Complete Scoundrel) to get Iron Will via GP. Add Cumbrous Will (Savage Species) for an additional +6 to all your Will saves and immunity to fear (class feature, template, or Planar Touchstone/Dream domain power) to ignore the shaken effect.

Consider putting the Mindarmor enhancement (3000 GP, MIC) and a Lesser Crystal of Mind Cloaking (4000 GP, MIC) on a +1 mithral chainshirt or breastplate.

[koscum]

Take a two level dip in Swordsage (lvl5 and lvl11 should do nicely) and get Moment of Perfect Mind and Mind over Body to use Concentration (max it!) check as Will and Fort save respectively. Get Child of Shadow as defensive stance (if your UMD is high enough and/or your party has access to Blur/Displacement, you can skip this one) and Assassin's Stance or Island of Blades as offensive stance (first one gives you +2d6 SA, while the second one grants you flaking whenever there's an ally near your opponent who's also threatening it). Suggested manoeuvres: Emerald Razor (resolve attack as melee touch), Cloak of Deception (Greater Invisibility until the end of your turn) and Shadow Blade (roll 2d20, choose one).

[Thespianus]

IMHO:

Cha and Int is not necessary to boost for a Melee Rogue, even though they're not dump stats either.

Focus on Dex and Con, you will need it. Get a +1 modifier in Int and Cha if you can, but go nuts for Dex and Con. Focus on Int over Cha if you aim for Knowledge Devotion (which is *awesome*), Focus on Cha over Int if you go for UMD.

Remember that TWF might not be necessary (Or at least not ITWF and GTWF), get Craven for great Sneak Attack boosts.

Or, as I'm sure someone will tell you: Look into Ranger/Scout Swift Hunter. ;)

[Pigkappa]

Uhm, well, I wasn't really complete in the description of our party.

With this character, I would be the only one using 3 different sourcebooks (PHB for Rogue, CW for Swashbuckler, CS for Daring Outlaw) for classes/feats. Characters requiring our DM a lot of booksearching aren't usually well considered. So adding a class from ToB, something from Drow of the Underdark, something from Incarnum and a feat from Complete Champion would surely mean the character gets banned.

I realize this is quite necessary to be decent with respect to the Druid and Cleric who are T1 even if their players don't optimize them (well, actually the Druid's one does that just as much as is necessary to be the most effective of the party without getting his character banned), but it's still a problem I can't ignore.


(Cha and Int are nice since the Swashbuckler's class features rely on them)

[Thespianus]

With this character, I would be the only one using 3 different sourcebooks (PHB, CW, CS) for classes/feats.
Ouch. But still, you get the Daring Outlaw-goodness, so that ain't all bad.

Skip Craven and Knowledge Devotion, focus on a Rogue 4/Swashbuckler X-build. The TWF-chain might be useful all the way, and spend skill ranks on UMD.


(Cha and Int are nice since the Swashbuckler's class features rely on them)
Yes, they are nice, but not as vital as Dex and Con. The Int-to-Damage won't matter much, for example, since you will be focusing on Sneak Attacks anyway.

[Pigkappa]

I think I'll try to have Whisper Gnomes accepted. The character will still be much worse than the Druid or Cleric anyway.

It's so sad that I will spend 2 feats for TWF and will still have as many attacks as the Frenzied Berseker >:(. And deal much less damage than he does. At least I won't try to kill any party members.

[faceroll]

Take a two level dip in Swordsage (lvl5 and lvl11 should do nicely) and get Moment of Perfect Mind and Mind over Body to use Concentration (max it!) check as Will and Fort save respectively. Get Child of Shadow as defensive stance (if your UMD is high enough and/or your party has access to Blur/Displacement, you can skip this one) and Assassin's Stance or Island of Blades as offensive stance (first one gives you +2d6 SA, while the second one grants you flaking whenever there's an ally near your opponent who's also threatening it). Suggested manoeuvres: Emerald Razor (resolve attack as melee touch), Cloak of Deception (Greater Invisibility until the end of your turn) and Shadow Blade (roll 2d20, choose one).

Was going to suggest something similar, but to pick up shadow jaunt stuff, to get sick mobility.

[Fouredged Sword]

Splash meldshaper. There is a great PRC in magic of incarnum that allows you to put essence into a class feature and get not bad miss chances, as well as grant HIPS.

[Pigkappa]

With this character, I would be the only one using 3 different sourcebooks (PHB for Rogue, CW for Swashbuckler, CS for Daring Outlaw) for classes/feats. Characters requiring our DM a lot of booksearching aren't usually well considered. So adding a class from ToB, something from Drow of the Underdark, something from Incarnum and a feat from Complete Champion would surely mean the character gets banned.


Also, HiPS makes definitely no sense and I would never consider taking it. I'm not going to abuse Hide, I'm not even going to have full ranks in it.

[Thespianus]

It's so sad that I will spend 2 feats for TWF and will still have as many attacks as the Frenzied Berseker >:(. And deal much less damage than he does. At least I won't try to kill any party members.

Welcome to Melee Hell. It sure is hard to do varied and effective Melee in 3.5, especially without Tome of Battle. A vast number of splatbooks have made it better, but if you are also limited to a small number of books, it gets a LOT worse.

[Pigkappa]

Welcome to Melee Hell. It sure is hard to do varied and effective Melee in 3.5, especially without Tome of Battle. A vast number of splatbooks have made it better, but if you are also limited to a small number of books, it gets a LOT worse.

=(

I'm going to post the character once I'm done. The only thing that's still troubling me is the Will save (actually +5; 3 base and 2 from the mantle of resistance), though the Mind Armor helps.

[Pigkappa]

Still looking for a feat:



Rogue4/Swashbuckler7, Whisper Gnome

Stats (28 point buy, these includes level ups and magic items):
Str 8
Dex 24
Con 18
Int 16
Wis 10
Cha 10

Feats:
Daring Outlaw
TWF and improved TWF
1 missing feat (likely Iron Will)

Skill Tricks:
Acrobatic Backstab, Easy Escape, Escape Attack, Quick Escape, Back on your feet.

Relevant items:
Mithral studded leather +3, Mind Armor
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Appropriate items to gain +4 Dex, +2 Str, +2 Int, +2Con, +2 saving throw
Wand of Mirror Image
Kurki +1
Punching dagger +1

I assume the wizard will always cast GMW on my weapons (though I doubt it), and the Cleric will use Heroes' Feast.

AC: 26 (28 with Dodge)
Attacks: +19/+19/+14/+14, all dealing 1d3+4 damage (6d6 sneak attack).
Saves: +12/+17/+5 (Will save is +10 with Mind Armor)

Relevant skills: Escape Artist +21, Hide +25, Move Silently +21, Search+17, Tumble +21, UMD +14, a few ranks are scattered everywhere.

I'm the first one using skill tricks. This character is by far the one who uses the highest number of books in the party. The last feat should possibly be from a common source (PHB possibly).

[Urpriest]

Swashbucklers don't use Cha.

[Pigkappa]

It's not like Cha 10 is really high anyway... I could make it 8 but I'm the only one with ranks in Diplomacy and UMD in the party.

[hex0]

You could work in Ranger 3 in to get free Endurance and TWF. Use Endurance to get Steadfast Determination which stops you from auto-failing on a 1 on Fort saves and use your CON instead of WIS to will.

Rogue 4/Ranger 3/Swashbuckler 4

Feats: TWF (bonus), Endurance (bonus), Weapon Finesse (bonus), Daring Outlaw, Steadfast Determination, Additional Favored Class, Improved TWF.

Base Saves are +9/+7/+3 and you have a little more hit points, skills, and options.

[Pigkappa]

This way I lose 2 dodge AC, Acrobatic Charge, and I'm not going to have Improved Flanking in 1 level. I don't know if it's worth it.

We sum saves as fractions, so the Fort save wouldn't be so high. This is done to discourage people taking lots of classes to end up with huge saves.

[Coidzor]

No grease, eh?

What about marbles? I believe those are Dungeonscape material.

Both of those will take your frenzied berserker out without you guys actually having to eat his melee attacks.

[Thespianus]

Still looking for a feat:

(....)
1 missing feat (likely Iron Will)

Skill Tricks:
Acrobatic Backstab, Easy Escape, Escape Attack, Quick Escape, Back on your feet.

If I can be so bold to suggest Quick Draw (PHB) as your feat of choice, then maybe the Skill Trick "Hidden Blade" can be of use? It allows you to draw a concealed weapon that you've hidden with Sleight of Hand and gain a Sneak Attack on the attack. Good for those pesky Standard Action-only situations or when you can't get a Sneak Attack in otherwise.

[Gwendol]

Good suggestion. Also, don't forget that ranger gives you martial weapon proficiencies, which you can use to get a good bow.

[Gnaeus]

Relevant items:
Mithral studded leather +3, Mind Armor
Ring of Protection +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Appropriate items to gain +4 Dex, +2 Str, +2 Int, +2Con, +2 saving throw
Wand of Mirror Image
Kurki +1
Punching dagger +1

I assume the wizard will always cast GMW on my weapons (though I doubt it), and the Cleric will use Heroes' Feast.

AC: 26 (28 with Dodge)

It seems to me that you are spending quite a lot of money on armor, to get an armor class that isn't actually high enough to keep relevant monsters from hitting you. If it were me, I would downgrade the armor to Leather +1 (with mindarmor) drop the ring and the amulet and maybe 2 points of dex, and pick up a Cloak of Displacement for a 20% miss chance. Alternately, downgrade the armor and buy a Wand of Greater Invisibility.

You have reached the level where armor class almost has to be heavily optimized to be useful at all.

[Pigkappa]

It seems to me that you are spending quite a lot of money on armor, to get an armor class that isn't actually high enough to keep relevant monsters from hitting you. If it were me, I would downgrade the armor to Leather +1 (with mindarmor) drop the ring and the amulet and maybe 2 points of dex, and pick up a Cloak of Displacement for a 20% miss chance. Alternately, downgrade the armor and buy a Wand of Greater Invisibility.

You have reached the level where armor class almost has to be heavily optimized to be useful at all.

Well, losing 4 points of AC (losing 2 points of Dex is out of question) is just as having that 20% miss chance, but much cheaper.

[Gnaeus]

Well, losing 4 points of AC (losing 2 points of Dex is out of question) is just as having that 20% miss chance, but much cheaper.

But much less effective. Melee threats will reach the point where they can hit your AC on a 2 anyway. Things with touch attacks (rays from enemy casters, many undead, etc) can ignore your armor and natural armor, but not a flat miss chance. The wand of Greater Invisibility is even better, unless you fight lots of foes with True Seeing.

But do what you want. I play in mid-high op campaigns, where at level 12 (where we are now) if your AC isn't in the mid-high 30s, it may as well be 14. YMMV.

[Pigkappa]

Well anyway, that's 24000 gp for a single item. It takes the same slot of the Resistance item (our DM doesn't approve putting the resistance bonus on another slot as the MIC does, because the Cloak slot is effectively much more common).

28 AC is decent for my group (it's harder to have it much higher with no cheese or huge investment) and we've never met monsters with more than +25 to hit. We're not mid-high optimization as I said, or we would have several casters able to create magic items to pay them at 50% their price and break WBL, for example.

I will consider the Displacement Cloak if we happen to earn a lot of money, however.

[Philistine]

I'm AFB, but IIRC you have to use a base item that's primarily metal in order to gain any benefit from mithral - studded leather wouldn't qualify. If your DM hates splat-diving as much as it seems, that leaves padded armor as your best bet to capitalize on your investment in Dex.

Apart from that... Opponents with +25 AB are hitting your 28 AC on a 3 or better - trading 4 points of AC for a flat 20% miss chance would be pure upgrade. Next, see about buying your cleric buddy a Pearl of Power and having him cast Magic Vestment on you each morning to keep the cost of armor down. I'd also suggest you re-look at Fractional Saves in UA/the SRD, because you do get the +2 for a strong save upon taking your first level in a new class, even if you already got it from a previous class. (Yes, really - it's even shown in the example.) But mostly, your first instinct was right: if your table is pummelling melee clerics to within an inch of their lives, a rogue (even a mostly-swashbuckler Daring Outlaw) is likely going to be converted to a fine pink mist in short order.

And that brings up the larger issue, namely that it sounds like your DM has "Killing PCs" as a primary goal. If that's the case, no amount of optimization can help you: you just need to decide whether or not that's how you want to play and make whatever adjustments then become necessary.

[ericgrau]

A masterwork buckler has no nonproficiency penalty, so you can use it. Plus now you only need one magic weapon and you don't have the -2 to hit, so your damage doesn't actually go down much.

With +6 dex and +1 size, +4 mithril chain shirt, +1 from buckler you're at 22 AC right off the bat before magic. Next you add +2 armor (4k), +2 shield (4k), +1 ring of protection (2k), +1 amulet of natural armor (2k) to get 6 more AC. Now you're at a respectable 28 AC for only 12k in magic. Get boots of speed for 10 rounds of haste per day and you're at a respectable 29 AC with tons of cash leftover to put into offense or a little more AC if you want. Plus you have an extra attack, better chance of hitting, and +2d6 energy damage on your weapon instead of +1d6. You'll never miss two weapon fighting.

As pointed out miss chance items are way too expensive at this level. Wait until 15ish. Checking the attack bonus of some CR 9 monsters (4 CR 9 = EL 13 encounter = "difficult"), I found +23, +13, +19, +14, +17, +15, +14, +20, +18, and less on secondary attacks. Most of the time you have much better than 50% miss chance from AC. A 20% item costs 20k vs. the 12k I mentioned. Around level 15ish you might want to get your miss chance from a ring of blinking for easy sneak attacks if you can't beg the wizard for greater invisibility every fight. Then you might want to consider TWF, but with the extra weapon cost (or weaker weapons) and attack roll penalty even at that level it's not necessarily the greatest idea. ITWF is ok after that but GTWF probably isn't even worth the feat. Extra attacks with no penalty (or even a bonus) like haste are uber-nice, but extra attacks with attack roll penalties means your actual number of hits might not be all that hot.

I tend to see about an equal number of "what kind of rogue should I play?" => "go TWF" threads and "help my rogue is dying/frail" threads. Personally I'm considering a greater invisible pixie rogue archer for an upcoming campaign, since pathfinder beefed up the already super-good pixie.

[Eldariel]

Let's rebudgetize. You have 66k. Get:
+1 Mithral Shirt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#mithralShirt) (2k) [bide your time with Celestial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#celestialArmor) (~22k), get it when the budget allows]
+1 Animated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#animated) Mithral (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#mithral) Heavy Steel Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm#shieldHeavyWoodenorSteel) (~10k) [No ACP so need no proficiency]
+4 Dex Item (16k)
+2 Con Item (4k)
Circlet of Persuasion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#circletofPersuasion) (~5k)
Crystalmask of Mindarmor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#crystalMaskofMindarmor) (10k)
Boots of Speed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bootsofSpeed) (12k)
+3 Resistance Item (9k)
+1 Natural Armor Item (2k)
+1 Deflection Item (2k)

Wands of Grease and maybe Gravestrike/Golemstrike/Vinestrike. They're 750gp a piece. Wand of Mirror Image is reasonable too, though a tad more expensive. And Masterwork Weapons will do fine.

Next, you ask for "Magic Vestment" (level 3 spell) from your Cleric for your Shield (and Armor if you didn't get a Celestial Armor yet). And Greater Magic Weapon for your Masterwork Weapons.

This gives you:
10 + 6 Armor + 6 Dex + 4 Shield + 1 Natural Armor + 1 Deflection + 1 Speed + 1 Size = 30 AC
10 BAB + 7 Dex + 2 Weapon + 1 Speed + 1 Size - 2 TWF = +19/+19/+14/+14 for basically 6d6 damage each.

Without the magical enhancements your AC will become 28 and your To hit +18/+18, which is unfortunate but not the end of the world. I think with such heavy Dex-focus and Small size it's worth it to pump your AC up. You also get pretty good HP from having quite high Con (obviously upgrade to +4 Con item ASAP) and your Will-save will be at least somewhat reasonable (you'd have 3 base + 4 Insight + 3 Resistance = +10 with this setup).

[Pigkappa]

Apart from that... Opponents with +25 AB are hitting your 28 AC on a 3 or better

Ok, but there are really few "opponents with +25 AB". I might have seen 1 in about 10 sessions, and I'm not even sure about this. So spending 15000 more gps to be slightly more effective against them doesn't sound like a brilliant idea.



Next, see about buying your cleric buddy a Pearl of Power and having him cast Magic Vestment on you each morning to keep the cost of armor down.

Since weapons are more expensive, I'd rather buy one for the Wizard to cast GMW. I still have to convince him however (I know he has very little to lose, but he's new and not really cooperative).



I'd also suggest you re-look at Fractional Saves in UA/the SRD, because you do get the +2 for a strong save upon taking your first level in a new class, even if you already got it from a previous class.

Mh, I didn't know about that, we're using a system I made up. Our save is 2 + A/2 + B/3 where A = level in classes with high save, B = level in classes with no save (provided A>0). I'll check that out.



And that brings up the larger issue, namely that it sounds like your DM has "Killing PCs" as a primary goal.

Not really. PCs are actually a problem too. I was so wounded because I received a lot of damage from the Frenzied Berseker (I'm usually the one who stops or tanks him, and I had used up Calm Emotions already) and the Wizard.

"Can I hit you with a Fireball? I can't target the opponent alone." "Yes, sure. I'm seriously injured but remember I have Fire Resistance 30." "Ok, then: MAXIMIZED FIREBALL!"



A masterwork buckler has no nonproficiency penalty, so you can use it. Plus now you only need one magic weapon and you don't have the -2 to hit, so your damage doesn't actually go down much.


Are you suggesting I start using one weapon only..? o_o.
I actually hope to make the Wizard learn Haste as soon as possible, or buy the Boots of Speed if he won't, so I'm currently attacking 5 times. If I switch to a +2 buckler, I gain 3 AC and lose 2 attacks, and that sucks since those attacks are going to be at +24/+19 (so they're likely to hit) in 1 level when I'm flanking.

Another player used Pixie and his greater invisibility was banned as soon as the DM realized the Pixie had it. As is obvious, of course.



[...]

Ok, this all sounds good. I won't take the Crystalmask since long-duration non-Resistance bonuses to Saves have already been declared cheesy (Conviction is banned for example), but I'll settle for Mind Armor.

The money saved this way will let me buy a +2 Strength enhancement which means I won't be paralyzed if I take 6 Strength damage, and I don't have to worry too much about the weight of my items.

[Eldest]

Think of it this way: the miss chance makes one of your defenses (AC) a bit weaker, but adds a second layer (miss chance). And adding the second layer of defense is way better than adding +4 to the AC. I can even work out the math if you need it.

[Pigkappa]

Correct me if this is wrong.

Suppose they need at least a 6 to hit me when I have max AC, no displacement. This is true for most of them. Call X the probability they hit me with max AC, no displacement.

Max AC, no displacement, probability is X.

Same AC minus 4, 20% displacement, probability is (X+0.2) * 0.8 = 0.8 X + 0.16.

If we want 0.8 X + 0.16 < X, we have 0.2X > 0.16, X > 0.9, which means they had to roll a 19 or 20 to hit me in the first place, and that's usually not true.

So AC ---> AC+4 is better than AC + 20% displacement, unless they can hit me on a natural 5 or they need a natural 19. Considering that 20% costs about 1/3 of your total resources, that's not so worth it...

[Eldariel]

Correct me if this is wrong.

Suppose they need at least a 6 to hit me when I have max AC, no displacement. This is true for most of them. Call X the probability they hit me with max AC, no displacement.

Max AC, no displacement, probability is X.

Same AC minus 4, 20% displacement, probability is (X+0.2) * 0.8 = 0.8 X + 0.16.

If we want 0.8 X + 0.16 < X, we have 0.2X > 0.16, X > 0.9, which means they had to roll a 19 or 20 to hit me in the first place, and that's usually not true.

So AC ---> AC+4 is better than AC + 20% displacement, unless they can hit me on a natural 5 or they need a natural 19. Considering that 20% costs about 1/3 of your total resources, that's not so worth it...

The miss chance item that is worth it is Ring of Blinking (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#blinking). While admittedly the downsides are substantial, the upsides more than make up for it. You have 20% miss chance yourself, true, but considering the fact that you strike as Invisible (enemy has no Dex-bonus to AC and you get +2 to attacks) the improved To Hit generally makes up for this especially accounting for iteratives.

And you get handy dandy auto-sneak attack and 50% miss chance to boot (of course, True Seeing enemies do negate part of this and enemies that can strike against Ethereal targets are wholly unaffected but those are rare enough; further, this protection extends to spells).

[Eldest]

For the math thing...
Say somebody is perfectly matched against you, 50% chance of hitting you vs. AC.
Then you take 4 points off AC then add the displacement.
70% chance of the other guy hitting vs AC
80% chance of it getting through displacement
Hm, 56% chance of hitting. Now I feel a bit stupid. Well, I'll be honest and post this anyway.

Although, has anybody suggested just getting a wand of blur or something similar? Ring of Blinking would be the best, especially if for some reason you got a ghost touch weapon. (no miss chance for you)

[Eldariel]

Ring of Blinking would be the best, especially if for some reason you got a ghost touch weapon. (no miss chance for you)

Not a combo. Ghost Touch only helps against Incorporeals; Blink makes you Ethereal. Also, even Riverine (matter that's basically solidified Force) only extends from Material to Ethereal, not the other way around. There's really precious little to get around the miss chance; Greater Blinking and RAW Pierce Magical Concealment are about it.

[Pigkappa]

Yeah, but 27000 gp for an item is quite a lot at level 11. I think I'll be going with the items suggested by Eldariel, except for a few ones.

[Eldest]

Hm, didn't know that about the ghost touch thing. Disregard that as well, then.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, but 27000 gp for an item is quite a lot at level 11. I think I'll be going with the items suggested by Eldariel, except for a few ones.

Yeah, it's another down the road item alongside +4 Con & Celestial Armor (all high priority; you could really use something to fly with too; Celestial Armor has it but only 1/day though I suppose you could ask the DM if the uses per day could be increased for a price). You could get it on 11 but it'd require dropping lots of stat enhancements (though actually, it is a viable alternative). Like making do with +2 Dex item opens up 12k, dropping the Crystalmask and down to +2 Resistance would open up the rest.

You could do:
+1 Mithral Shirt (2k)
+1 Animated Mithral Heavy Steel Shield (~10k)
+2 Dex Item (4k)
+2 Con Item (4k)
Circlet of Persuasion (~5k)
Boots of Speed (12k)
Ring of Blinking (27k)
+2 Resistance Item (4k)
+1 Natural Armor Item (2k)
+1 Deflection Item (2k)

Yeah, the Ring is a major investment. It could actually be somewhat optimal tho as right now, you aren't using everything the +4 Dex is giving you (since Mithral Shirt caps out at +6 Dex) and you already said you can't use the Crystalmask. You do lose out on saves a bit and +1 to hit, but you get massive offensive and defensive steroid. If I was optimizing this for "right now", that would probably be a strong consideration (though again, the Will-save is a very real concern; casters can provide you with Protection from Alignment hopefully to at least negate few of the most common mind-affecting attacks).

For rest of the possible cuts, the Animated Shield is +4 AC so it's only 2.5k gold per AC, being the next most efficient source after all you've got and you can only get the whole package so dropping it isn't a real option. And Boots of Speed are a hugely powerful combat item. So the next drops would be some of the 4k and 2k items, really. Meh.


Celestial Armor and maxing Dex-bonus to it would come in a couple of levels, as would increased Resistance bonuses and obviously getting higher enhancement bonuses to stats.

But yeah, the other item set is perfectly fine too. Whether or not you go with Blinking is of course up to you.

EDIT: Oh! Get the Mindarmor property on your shield! Armor you prolly wanna switch at some point to the Celestial Armor but Animated Mithral Shield? That's something you're gonna stick with to the end. So the Shield-property would stick with you longer and as it's a flat cost, it's no more gold to add it to the shield than the armor.

EDIT#2: And you want Heward's Handy Haversack anyways. It kinda removes the carrying capacity problem. Though obviously, +2 Str item in the future isn't out of question still.

[Fitz10019]

One thing to remember with a TWF build ...


...If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one. source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#draworSheatheaWeapon) aka PHB p142

So it's a good strategy to walk around with an ordinary bow in your hand to use during those standard-action only rounds (or anytime you don't want to be the first to arrive at a front-line situation). You can drop the cheap bow and draw both weapons in the next round when you move in to engage.

[Eldariel]

So it's a good strategy to walk around with an ordinary bow in your hand to use during those standard-action only rounds (or anytime you don't want to be the first to arrive at a front-line situation). You can drop the cheap bow and draw both weapons in the next round when you move in to engage.

Well, you could also charge in and take advantage of the free Sneak Attack on surprise round as you are probably pretty hardy with a build like this, at least far as pure physical damage goes (of course, magical resistances aren't your strong suite, particularly the Will-save).

Ring of Blinking-build probably has some of the best defenses you can have martially on this level. The 50% immunity to spells is pretty damn sweet (only Abjurations and Force-effects penetrate this; not many of them are relevant to you outside the obvious Dispels to suppress your Ring or something). Of course the Will-save is still atrocious but c'est la vie. At least the Fort and the Ref are pretty good.

[mint]

My advice is not as mathematically sound as Eladriel's.
It would kill your damage but how awesome would this be?
Cyran Gliding Boots (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20061120a) + Spiked Chain.
You are now fighting like Gogo and you can make a few 10ft steps a day.
The idea is to not be a target of opportunity in melee with all your other party members hanging around. And dealing less damage, your DM might give you more leeway with weird tricks?
I feel dumb trying to defend it on grounds other than coolness though.