My First Time - Melee Cleric

[house.au]

So after many years of people kind of assuming that I played D&D I've finally joined a game. We're starting at level 3, and I came the the party late so guess what they were missing...

I've tried to avoid going the "I'm just the healbot" route entirely, though of course that's definitely the major feature I bring to the party. We're limited to only anything that's on d20srd.org/Players Handbook, no extra sourcebooks etc. My rough plan is to cave in heads with my mace while trying to be creative with my casting, but keeping the party alive is definitely a big fat plus.

Just wondering if any of the clever people on here had any interesting suggestions as to what they'd do if they had my character. I accept that I've probably made some mistakes in my setup so far, but not a lot I can do about that and besides they fit thematically. I'm not trying to break the game, I just don't want to suck. Oh and it's been confirmed that I'm definitely stuck with being Human and with the Weapon Focus feat.

Relevant info: Party consists of Dwarven Fighter, Elven Bard, Half-Elven Ranger/Rogue and Half-Elven Sorcerer. Plus of course my Human Cleric.

Alignment: Neutral Good

STR 12 DEX 8 CON 14 INT 11 WIS 16 CHA 10

Spell Domains: Luck and Magic

Feats:
Not allowed to change: Weapon Focus (Heavy Mace)
Allowed to change: Blindfight, Endurance.

Currently my AC is 19 (+7 half plate, +2 Heavy Steel Shield, +1 Ring Of Protection)

Skills: Concentration 6, Diplomacy 2, Knowledge (Religion) 1, Knowledge (Arcana) 1, Knowledge (History) 1, Knowledge (Planes) 1, Spellcraft 6.

[Lateral]

Good clerics can't rebuke. :smallconfused:

I'd switch to full plate, if I were you. The AC is one higher and the ACP is actually one lower. The cost is the only downside, but by this time you should be able to afford it. I'd also drop Weapon Focus; it's boring as hell and not really all that useful. Try Power Attack or something instead.

[NOhara24]

Your STR is kind of low to be on the front lines with the Fighter and expect to be effective. You can take the Zen Archery feat and that would let you use your WIS bonus instead of DEX on ranged weapons. Granted, you'd be limiting yourself to a "healbot" setup for a little while, but you'll unlock good spells later on that will allow you to basically do whatever you want.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You definitely want to rethink your feats. Weapon Focus is never worth taking unless it's a prerequisite for something else, which in this case it's not. Rather than taking Blindfight, pick a race that gets Darkvision, you'll be much better off in the long run. Half-Plate is heavy armor, Endurance only allows you to sleep in up to medium armor without being fatigued.

Being limited to SRD only severely limits your feat choices, but there are still some really good ones to pick from. Item creation feats are useful, especially if your party will pay you full price for crafted items, though charging them around 75% is still fair. Metamagic feats are good, such as Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, and in the higher levels Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) is still worth taking. Keep in mind multiple characters can contribute prerequisites for item creation, so you could get Craft Rod and hire an NPC who has a given metamagic feat to make a metamagic rod, for example.

Consider the available prestige classes, and what their prerequisites are. Thaumaturgist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/thaumaturgist.htm) is considerably strong since you could get a Ghaele (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghaele.htm) as your planar cohort at level 12. You should definitely consider taking this, in which case you'll need Spell Focus: Conjuration.

Good aligned clerics always turn undead, evil aligned clerics always rebuke undead, only clerics who are neutral on the good-evil axis may choose which to use. Clerics who turn undead can spontaneously cast Cure spells, clerics who rebuke undead can spontaneously cast Inflict spells, so turning would be the better choice anyway. If you're going to keep taking Cleric to level 20, Improved Turning may be a useful choice.

Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) is extremely overpowered, definitely take it if you don't think your DM would ever destroy it or take it away. Note that an Item Familiar, being an intelligent item, is considered a construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/intelligentItems.htm), so spells affect it as though it were a creature and not an item. Meaning, it remains functional in an Antimagic Field, it cannot be Disjoined, Dispel attempts to not render it nonmagical temporarily, and it's immune to methods of destroying items which do not also work on creatures. I'd make it either a ring or a rod, in the case of a ring start it out as a Ring of Protection or a Ring of Sustenance, later on upgrade it to a Ring of Invisibility (which it spends its action every round to activate its invisibility effect on you), and then add intelligent item powers to it. Note that you can upgrade an Item Familiar as though you possessed all the prerequisite item creation feats to do so. Since it would already be an intelligent item, there's nothing prohibiting you from adding additional lesser and greater powers to it as per normal item creation rules.

I'd get Extend Spell, either Improved Turning or Spell Focus: Conjuration, and either Craft Wondrous Item or Item Familiar. At 6th level if you have Item Familiar then you should have plenty of excess XP to take an item creation feat such as Craft Wondrous, Craft Wand, or Craft Arms/Armor. With the Magic domain you can get a Wand of Web and use that at the start of every encounter to keep several opponents busy for a few rounds so they won't be attacking anyone. (Lesser) Metamagic rods of Extend and Quicken are highly recommended. If you're not taking Thaumaturgist and got Improved Turning, then a Phylactery of Undead Turning would be extremely useful.

[erikun]

Good-aligned cleric turn undead only; you cannot rebuke undead.

The Endurance feat allows you to sleep in light or medium armor. Half-Plate, as heavy armor, cannot be slept in.

Your AC is 18 (+7 half plate, +2 Heavy Steel Shield, -1 Dexterity Modifier, +1 Ring Of Protection). The "0 Maximum Dex Bonus" does not prevent penalities, and +0 is more than -1. You would be better off in Full Plate for the additional +1 AC.


You can take the Zen Archery feat and that would let you use your WIS bonus instead of DEX on ranged weapons.
SRD-only means no Zen Archery.

--

For the character itself, as others have mentioned, you won't be as effective as the fighter in combat. You'll still manage relatively well, but you won't be tearing apart orcs like someone with 20 STR and a greatsword.

Extend Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#extendSpell) might be worth looking into. You will probably be handing out a lot of buffs, as +2 AC will likely prevent more damage than recovering 1d8+5 HP. Locating the buffs that are most effective for you and doubling how long they last can save a few slots, and extent how long you can keep going.

Item Creation feats are worth looking into; the XP component is rather minor, and the amount of spell slots you can save with a Wand of Cure Light Wounds is impressive.

--


Being limited to SRD only severely limits your feat choices, but there are still some really good ones to pick from. Item creation feats are useful, especially if your party will pay you full price for crafted items, though charging them around 75% is still fair. Metamagic feats are good, such as Extend Spell, Quicken Spell, and in the higher levels Persistent Spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) is still worth taking. Keep in mind multiple characters can contribute prerequisites for item creation, so you could get Craft Rod and hire an NPC who has a given metamagic feat to make a metamagic rod, for example.
I'm not seeing a metamagic rod of persist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods) anywhere, and I'd seriously question its use otherwise. What are you going to persist, Protection from Evil with a 7th level spell slot? That doesn't seem worth it.

I can see metamagic extend rods (and quicken, for emergencies) to be very attractive, though.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'm not seeing a metamagic rod of persist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rods.htm#metamagicRods) anywhere, and I'd seriously question its use otherwise. What are you going to persist, Protection from Evil with a 7th level spell slot? That doesn't seem worth it.

I can see metamagic extend rods (and quicken, for emergencies) to be very attractive, though.

I didn't say anything about a Rod of Persist, though a Lesser Rod of Quicken is good for throwing up a low level buff at the start of a fight without wasting actions. Persistent Spell can be used for Divine Favor, Meld Into Stone, Magic Circle, and many others, though it looks like most of the best choices aren't in the SRD, so it may not be that great a choice after all. I did specify that it would be a high level selection.

[Rimeheart]

Your AC is 18 (+7 half plate, +2 Heavy Steel Shield, -1 Dexterity Modifier, +1 Ring Of Protection). The "0 Maximum Dex Bonus" does not prevent penalities, and +0 is more than -1. You would be better off in Full Plate for the additional +1 AC.

.

7+2+1=10, 10-1=9, 9+10 =19, he did it right the first time.

[house.au]

First of all thanks everyone! I don't know if I'll be allowed to change anything I've already set, though I may approach the DM about it now that I'm realizing that I didn't read feats properly...


Good clerics can't rebuke. :smallconfused:

Aaaah of course, right, sorry. For a while I was considering True Neutral, and of course at that point I had options, I'd forgotten that by choosing Good had removed that option altogether.


I'd switch to full plate, if I were you. The AC is one higher and the ACP is actually one lower. The cost is the only downside, but by this time you should be able to afford it. I'd also drop Weapon Focus; it's boring as hell and not really all that useful. Try Power Attack or something instead.

I definitely want to get to full plate, however I can't afford it at this point. Though we've started at level 3 our DM has ruled that we had very little starting cash. The fighter and I pooled funds from our first mission to get me the half-plate because it was a hell of an improvement from the Scale Mail I had. I wanted to take Power Attack but didn't have the STR req so took Weapon Focus as a "That'll do". Character creation was kind of rushed, big mistake on my part.


Your STR is kind of low to be on the front lines with the Fighter and expect to be effective.

Oh definitely, I'm not so great with dishing out damage, but as the only character besides the Fighter to have more than 20HP I'm more there to provide another target with a decent AC. The squishies have proven themselves to be craven and very squishy, so while I accept I'm not dealing a lot I do what I can and try to keep stray bruisers off the rest of the party.


You definitely want to rethink your feats. Weapon Focus is never worth taking unless it's a prerequisite for something else, which in this case it's not. Rather than taking Blindfight, pick a race that gets Darkvision, you'll be much better off in the long run. Half-Plate is heavy armor, Endurance only allows you to sleep in up to medium armor without being fatigued.

This is where I've failed the most I think. Unfortunately changing race to get the Darkvision is almost certainly not an option, and to be honest I'm not especailly comfortable with changing my race just for the boon. I understand that it's the smarter choice mechanically, but I'm not trying to optimise to the nth degree, just want to do the best I can with what I have.


Being limited to SRD only severely limits your feat choices, but there are still some really good ones to pick from.

Yeah I totally ignored those in favour of what I thought were more "practical" feats, which I've realized was stupid now. Short term gain for long term loss.


Consider the available prestige classes, and what their prerequisites are.

I've only just started looking at those, I kinda thought Hierophant was most likely, but thanks for drawing my attention to the Thaumaturgist :smallbiggrin:


Item Familiar is extremely overpowered...

It looks that way! Interesting though, I had no familiarity with that at all, thanks! Also the Craft feats look a lot more interesting than they first appeared.



Extend Spell might be worth looking into.

Yeah I admit I was ignorant of Metamagic altogether, now that I look at it with new eyes after reading some posts here I'm banging my head on the desk.

Again, thanks everyone for your suggestions so far, especially those regarding what I can take in the future (those will be very useful if my assumption that the DM won't let me change my character from what I've taken is correct).

[Rimeheart]

I would also consider switching into a summoner cleric later on as you gain levels and start to become less effective in melee due to your BAB.

[Thespianus]

I would also consider switching into a summoner cleric later on as you gain levels and start to become less effective in melee due to your BAB.

Well, after level 7, your BAB can equal that of a Fighter. Summoning loses efficiency at higher levels, the monsters you can summon don't scale well.

[Feytalist]

Well, after level 7, your BAB can equal that of a Fighter. Summoning loses efficiency at higher levels, the monsters you can summon don't scale well.

Unless Malconvoker. But then you really need to play in a certain way, and it's perhaps not something you would want. Consorting with demons and so forth.

But yeah, with the right spells you could be a nice meleer. Divine power/righteous might etc.

[Gwendol]

Dwarf cleric, seriously, you can't go wrong. Still, try to get power attack any way you can. Increase STR at level 4 if you must and take it at lvl 6.

[house.au]

I would also consider switching into a summoner cleric later on as you gain levels and start to become less effective in melee due to your BAB.


Well, after level 7, your BAB can equal that of a Fighter. Summoning loses efficiency at higher levels, the monsters you can summon don't scale well.

Having never played any character through I have no idea whether my BAB is going to be a high-level disappointment or not. However consorting with demons is likely to go very badly for me and my good-aligned party... maybe next character. It was only just the other day that I realized how much good Divine Power could do for me, and looking forward to Righteous Might.


Dwarf cleric, seriously, you can't go wrong. Still, try to get power attack any way you can. Increase STR at level 4 if you must and take it at lvl 6.

I've confirmed today that changing race is definitely not an option, so unfortunately though I'm sure Dwarf Cleric was an awesome idea it's not for this guy. I'll have a long hard look at Power Attack now :smallbiggrin:

You people are just full of information!

For the present, I've been informed I can ditch Blindfight and Endurance as I haven't really used them yet, but I'm stuck with Weapon Focus. I am currently considering switching them out for Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) and Craft Wondrous Item (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#craftWondrousItem) if the DM is going to allow the Variant rule required for the former. I figure it might allow me to craft items for the party without falling too far behind in the leveling stakes. Anyone think this is an awful idea?

[Gavinfoxx]

Have you read the Cleric Handbook?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

[house.au]

Have you read the Cleric Handbook?

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0

I have been wading through it, however there is just so much there that has SFA to do with the limited options I'm dealing with, so I thought not a bad idea to ask some expects. It's a little depressing reading about something awesome like Persistent Spell and then seeing that it doesn't have the good old PHB tag that indicates I can use it. :smallfrown:

[Gavinfoxx]

Can you use SRD Cleric stuff? It should be available for your DM -- just go to www.d20srd.org. It has several more domains and cloistered cleric and prestige paladin, for example.

[Thespianus]

The standard feats for a melee cleric is Extend Spell, power attack ,persistent spell and divine metamagic. Get many turn undead attempts through nightsticks , and use persistent spell to make Divine Power last all night. Grab Extend Spell instead of Endurance. you don't meet the prerequisites for power attack yet.

Edit - I forgot the limited sources. extend spell can still be good though.

[house.au]

Can you use SRD Cleric stuff? It should be available for your DM -- just go to www.d20srd.org. It has several more domains and cloistered cleric and prestige paladin, for example.

Yeah anything on d20srd.org should be fair game.

Regarding the cloistered cleric considering that my whole party seem ready to crumble if you hug them tight (with the exception of our hearty Dwarf Fighter) I figured it was better to remain more robust; if I can stay alive maybe I can heal them up. Unless I'm missing something fundamental (entirely possible!) taking Cloistered Cleric would put me in a position of getting my butt kicked a lot more regularly in exchange for the Knowledge Domain and similarly administrative spells.


The standard feats for a melee cleric is Extend Spell, power attack ,persistent spell and divine metamagic. Get many turn undead attempts through nightsticks , and use persistent spell to make Divine Power last all night. Grab Extend Spell instead of Endurance. you don't meet the prerequisites for power attack yet.

Unfortunately as stated above, I can't use anything that's not in d20srd.org/PHB, so Persistent Spell, Nightsticks, Divine Metamagic are all out of the question for this build :smallfrown: They sound awesome, they're just not possible.

[Gavinfoxx]

In order to not crumble in melee, all you need to do is use Reach Weapons (Guisarme or Spiked Chain), Tripping, Stand Still, and make sure the Wizard type preps Enlarge Person type buffs and other battlefield control spells.

The idea is to always hit them from 15' away and trip or stop them so they can't close.

Here is a SRD Cleric I am currently playing:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=290685

Spiked chain would have been more optimal, but I like Guisarmes more. Also, I didn't manage to get Travel AND Trickery ( sad...), which I would've liked.

[house.au]

In order to not crumble in melee, all you need to do is use Reach Weapons (Guisarme or Spiked Chain), Tripping, Stand Still, and make sure the Wizard type preps Enlarge Person type buffs and other battlefield control spells.

The idea is to always hit them from 15' away and trip or stop them so they can't close.

Here is a SRD Cleric I am currently playing:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=290685

Spiked chain would have been more optimal, but I like Guisarmes more. Also, I didn't manage to get Travel AND Trickery ( sad...), which I would've liked.

Ooooh that seems like a decent tactic! Spiked Chain eh? I'd need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but that's seeming kinda cool for managing the baddies. From my google-fu dandwiki.com is showing them as attacking up to 10' away rather than 15' though? :smallconfused: Definitely food for thought, thanks for the peek at your sheet too, is that a free sheet hosting service?

[house.au]

I'm probably not looking at Metamagic at this stage, but I'm trying to understand Heighten Spell [Metamagic] a bit more... I'm not sure what this means:


The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

It seems that a caster can use this to make a spell take the effect of the same spell cast at a higher effective caster level with no real cost. I'm guessing the cost is in that sentence but I'm not sure what it boils down to. :smalleek:

Man I feel such a noob at the moment!

[Engine]

Oh and it's been confirmed that I'm definitely stuck with being Human and with the Weapon Focus feat.

Persuade your DM to let you change Weapon Focus. It's not that great.


STR 12 DEX 8 CON 14 INT 11 WIS 16 CHA 10

Well, if you could do that, try to lower your INT to 10 and put the point in STR, so you could take Power Attack. Much better than Weapon Focus.



Feats: Weapon Focus (Heavy Mace), Blindfight (everyone else in my party can fight in the dark), Endurance (I sleep in my half-plate).

As already said, try to retrain Weapon Focus to Power Attack. Endurance is an awful feat, if you want to sleep in armor try to buy a studded leather or chain shirt armor. Not good as an half plate, but better than nothing. Blindfight is kind of meh, I'll drop that too for something else.
Someone said Extend Spell, a good metamagic feat for buffing yourself. Improved Initiative is a good feat considering that you're stuck with just SRD.

[Thespianus]

Ooooh that seems like a decent tactic! Spiked Chain eh? I'd need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but that's seeming kinda cool for managing the baddies.
Combat Expertise requires an Int score of 13.

If you can get your Strength to 13, Power Attack will be good down the line. At level 3, you will be more focused on actually hitting things in melee than getting a reduction in attack bonus. ;)

At Level 3, there's a few spells that will boost your melee ability, Divine Favor Bull's Strength, Magic Weapon, etc, but the party will like you better if you sometime boost everyone (Bless, etc) or use your spell powers to control enemies (Hold Person) or protect the party (Obscuring Mist)

[house.au]

Combat Expertise requires an Int score of 13.

If you can get your Strength to 13, Power Attack will be good down the line. At level 3, you will be more focused on actually hitting things in melee than getting a reduction in attack bonus. ;)

At Level 3, there's a few spells that will boost your melee ability, Divine Favor Bull's Strength, Magic Weapon, etc, but the party will like you better if you sometime boost everyone (Bless, etc) or use your spell powers to control enemies (Hold Person) or protect the party (Obscuring Mist)

Fair points, all :smallsmile:

[Gavinfoxx]

Ooooh that seems like a decent tactic! Spiked Chain eh? I'd need to take Exotic Weapon Proficiency, but that's seeming kinda cool for managing the baddies. From my google-fu dandwiki.com is showing them as attacking up to 10' away rather than 15' though? :smallconfused: Definitely food for thought, thanks for the peek at your sheet too, is that a free sheet hosting service?

The 15' is because of Enlarge Person, which also DRAMATICALLY increases your Tripping ability. You'll also need Improved Trip.

And there are several places to make sheets! Including:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetindex.php
http://www.dndsheets.net/sheet.php
http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler.php
http://www.dndonlinegames.com/profiler/

[Gwendol]

One more thing: your domains. If you are serious about being a melee cleric you should think about your domains, typically picking two from the holy triad of Strength/War/Travel. Strength gives you Enlarge Person at lvl 1, War gives you Weapon Focus (thus freeing up a feat slot for you), and Travel gives you the awesome Freedom of Movement at lvl 1 (for 1 round only, but still).

Also, ditch the shield and go for a 2-handed weapon. Especially once you get PA.

[Lateral]

[QUOTE=house.au;11762411]It seems that a caster can use this to make a spell take the effect of the same spell cast at a higher effective caster level with no real cost. I'm guessing the cost is in that sentence but I'm not sure what it boils down to. :smalleek:/QUOTE]

The quote is talking about spell level, not caster level. Basically, you can prepare a spell in a higher-level spell slot in exchange for increasing anything related to the spell level (save DCs, for one) to match a spell of the new level. If you were to, say, heighten Fireball to level 5, it would be the same as a regular Fireball, but the save DC would go up by 2 (because it's higher level) and it wouldn't be affected by a Globe of Invulnerability and the like.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

War domain nets you free Weapon Focus and Weapon Proficency (if necessary) with your deity's weapon. You also get some fun things to toss in your domain spell slot.

[erikun]

I'm probably not looking at Metamagic at this stage, but I'm trying to understand Heighten Spell [Metamagic] a bit more... I'm not sure what this means:



It seems that a caster can use this to make a spell take the effect of the same spell cast at a higher effective caster level with no real cost. I'm guessing the cost is in that sentence but I'm not sure what it boils down to. :smalleek:

Man I feel such a noob at the moment!
Heighten Spell allows you to use a higher level spell slot to cast a low level spell at a higher level. For example, Command is a 1st-level spell with a DC of 11+WIS modifier. Normally, if you prepare it in a 3rd-level spell slot, it's still a 1st-level spell with the same DC.

However, if you prepare a Heightened Command in a 3rd-level spell slot, it is considered a 3rd-level spell, including the 13+WIS modifier DC that comes with 3rd-level spells.

There aren't that many uses for heightening spells. You could heighten your damaging spells, but you frequently have other (and better) options at higher levels for the same spell slot. It's handy for illusions and enchantments, where the success is largely determined by a successful save. Wizards (with a limited spellbook) and Sorcerers (with limited spells know) can get some good use out of the metamagic. Cleric, who can memorize any of their spell list every day, don't get as much use.

[house.au]

The 15' is because of Enlarge Person, which also DRAMATICALLY increases your Tripping ability. You'll also need Improved Trip.


Aaaah that makes sense! I knew I was missing something. Thanks for the sheet generators, I've already got mine all plotted out classy-like on a spreadsheet, but some of my party might have use for them.


One more thing: your domains....

Also, ditch the shield and go for a 2-handed weapon. Especially once you get PA.

War domain nets you free Weapon Focus and Weapon Proficency (if necessary) with your deity's weapon. You also get some fun things to toss in your domain spell slot.

For better or worse I'm stuck with the domains. Magic made more sense before we had the Sorcerer join, but ah well :smallsigh: Feels counter intuitive to ditch the shield but especially if I get something with reach/trip improvements that's pretty cool.



The quote is talking about spell level, not caster level...

... Cleric, who can memorize any of their spell list every day, don't get as much use.

Ah now that's much clearer! Thanks!

[Eldariel]

Aaaah that makes sense! I knew I was missing something. Thanks for the sheet generators, I've already got mine all plotted out classy-like on a spreadsheet, but some of my party might have use for them.

It's even better than that. You can hit them up to 20' away (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#reachWeapons) if you're large. Large Reach = 15' - 20' and since it's Spiked Chain, it also hits 5' - 10' away. Basically, Reach Weapon always doubles your natural reach (so Tarrasque with Spiked Chain would threaten all squares within 60' from him).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Feels counter intuitive to ditch the shield but especially if I get something with reach/trip improvements that's pretty cool.

It also feels counter-intuitive to be able to wield a greatsword with the same speed as a longsword held in two hands. This is D&D (actually, plenty of things IRL are counter-intuitive too). Two-handed is better, and you have no excuse if you can afford an animated shield.

[Gavinfoxx]

You could also two hand a spiked heavy shield. It's an option!

[SamBurke]

Yeah anything on d20srd.org should be fair game.

Unfortunately as stated above, I can't use anything that's not in d20srd.org/PHB, so Persistent Spell, Nightsticks, Divine Metamagic are all out of the question for this build :smallfrown: They sound awesome, they're just not possible.

Persistent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) is indeed on the srd.

[house.au]

Basically, Reach Weapon always doubles your natural reach (so Tarrasque with Spiked Chain would threaten all squares within 60' from him).

Oh that Tarrasque, he's such a bastard :smallbiggrin:


Two-handed is better, and you have no excuse if you can afford an animated shield.

Well that's the thing, I can't afford an animated shield, so I was thinking losing the +2 to my AC would suck. However I definitely want to make buying an animated shield a priority!

[house.au]

Persistent (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#persistentSpell) is indeed on the srd.

I...how...it... clearly I was drunk. :smallredface:

So I'm browsing via my phone so not SURE of this, but do I need to become a deity to take that feat?

[Gavinfoxx]

Why not Two Hand A Heavy Steel Spiked Shield? Really? This is the SECOND time I've mentioned this!

[Feytalist]

So I'm browsing via my phone so not SURE of this, but do I need to become a deity to take that feat?

Heh, no, not quite. You just need Extend Spell :smallbiggrin:


Why not Two Hand A Heavy Steel Spiked Shield? Really? This is the SECOND time I've mentioned this!

Shield fighting needs a whole slew of feats to be usable in any sense. As I've just discovered in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213769).

[house.au]

Heh, no, not quite. You just need Extend Spell :smallbiggrin:

Oh... it looked like it was in amongst feats available only for Deities. If not, that's awesome! No use to me at level 3 of course, but at level 6 it would be positively cracking.


Shield fighting needs a whole slew of feats to be usable in any sense. As I've just discovered in another thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213769).

Hence Cap'n 'Merica being so specialized, he sunk all his feats in early?

[house.au]

Heh, no, not quite. You just need Extend Spell :smallbiggrin:.

Wait, it says above that feat list that dieties can select from it in addition to normal feats... That seems to imply it's for them only? Can someone explain the why it's not available on the normal feat list if it's meant for little clerics like mine?

[Thespianus]

Oh... it looked like it was in amongst feats available only for Deities. If not, that's awesome! No use to me at level 3 of course, but at level 6 it would be positively cracking.
However, you're missing out on the feat that makes the Melee Cleric go ballistic: Divine Metamagic(DMM). Without DMM Persistent Spell, a Persisted Divine Power becomes a 9th or 10th level spell (AFB ATM), making it darn difficult to actually use Persistent Spell.

I really think it's odd that your DM is limiting a Divine Caster from using the book Complete Divine, but that's up to you and your DM to hash out. :)

With DMM(Persistent Spell) you use Turn Undead attempts to "pay" for the Metamagic "cost", allowing you to cast Persisted Divine Power as a 4th level spell by spending 5 or 6 Turn Undead attempts.

It's not "broken" unless you also allow Nightsticks AND you allow multiple Nightsticks to stack, giving you an endless supply of Turn Undead attempts per day.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Wait, it says above that feat list that dieties can select from it in addition to normal feats... That seems to imply it's for them only? Can someone explain the why it's not available on the normal feat list if it's meant for little clerics like mine?

Check this list (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm), it contains deity-only divine abilities as well as feats; all of them are contained on the same page, but the feats are at the bottom below the 'feats' heading (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#feats). Those feats are on that page because they were in the book Deities and Demigods, which also contained all of the divine abilities. You can only pick a divine ability if you have the divine rank (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm) to gain one and meet its prerequisites; you can pick one of those feats if you have a feat available and meet its prerequisites.

[house.au]

I really think it's odd that your DM is limiting a Divine Caster from using the book Complete Divine, but that's up to you and your DM to hash out. :)

Yeah I think he's keeping it vanilla for everyone, the arcane caster isn't getting any access to extra sourcebooks either. But still, even being able to give a relatively small buff for the whole day would be pretty cool by my reckoning.


Check this list (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm), it contains deity-only divine abilities as well as feats; all of them are contained on the same page, but the feats are at the bottom below the 'feats' heading (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#feats). Those feats are on that page because they were in the book Deities and Demigods, which also contained all of the divine abilities. You can only pick a divine ability if you have the divine rank (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/divineRanksPowers.htm) to gain one and meet its prerequisites; you can pick one of those feats if you have a feat available and meet its prerequisites.

Yes, that's where I was looking right enough... so the Abilities in that section require Divine Rank 0 or greater, but the Feats can be had by any mortal, provided they meet the prerequisites? Sorry if it seems I'm just re-phrasing what you've said, I'm just trying to be sure I understand.

If I do understand correctly, any level 1 human could take both feats, Extend Spell and Persistent Spell? Of course they wouldn't be able to make good use of the latter until they reached level 6, as they need spell slots that are 6 levels higher in order to prepare?

[Feytalist]

If I do understand correctly, any level 1 human could take both feats, Extend Spell and Persistent Spell? Of course they wouldn't be able to make good use of the latter until they reached level 6, as they need spell slots that are 6 levels higher in order to prepare?

Well. You're going to need to be able to cast 6th level spells, in which case you will need to be at least level 12... by which time you'll be able to persist a cantrip. So like Thespianus mentioned, it's only really viable with Divine Metamagic, or some serious metamagic reducers stacking.

Also, while I don't know what your sources say, Persist Spell in Complete Divine is definitely not a deity-only feat.

[house.au]

Well. You're going to need to be able to cast 6th level spells, in which case you will need to be at least level 12... by which time you'll be able to persist a cantrip. So like Thespianus mentioned, it's only really viable with Divine Metamagic, or some serious metamagic reducers stacking.

Also, while I don't know what your sources say, Persist Spell in Complete Divine is definitely not a deity-only feat.

Oh right, yes of course... I keep forgetting that caster level and character level are far from the same thing :smallredface: Hmmm yes I see what you mean, even at high levels only relatively low buffs would be possible. I mean giving someone +4 Strength all day isn't anything to sniff at, but by that time they'd likely have a heap of magical items to achieve similar effects...

Sorry yeah I got confused, reading as I was form d20srd.org it seemed like everything on that page was for dieties. Thanks for being patient with me :smallsmile:

[Feytalist]

Whoops. Actually level 11 for 6th level spells. But still.

Also, no worries. We live and learn :smallsmile:

And don't worry too much about juggling metamagics. Even casting Divine Power or whatever once a day is not bad at all.

[house.au]

True enough, just might save the "Persistent" Feat until I'm closer to able to use it... even as late as level 12. I'm sorely tempted to take that path anyways, even if it's not as cool as the whole "Nightstick Abuse" thing can make it.

I'm really interested in Item Familiar now... I'm considering that + Craft Wonderous Item so I can gain some extra XP and put that XP towards crafting items without getting left behind by the rest of the group. That spiked chain sounds groovy too, but not until I can take an Exotic Weapon Proficiency in it.

[flabort]

:smallconfused:
It just hit me: A Dancing Spiked Chain familiar would be awesome!
...Thanks for the idea. In a future game, I'll make a "Snake Charmer" if I can get that past the DM.

Sorry I could only take from this conversation, rather than add to it.

[house.au]

:smallconfused:
It just hit me: A Dancing Spiked Chain familiar would be awesome!
...Thanks for the idea. In a future game, I'll make a "Snake Charmer" if I can get that past the DM.

Sorry I could only take from this conversation, rather than add to it.

Hehehehehe glad someone besides me is getting something from it, I was feeling a little like a leech just sucking the knowledge out of your skulls :smallsmile:

[house.au]

Hey all,

Just wanted to say thanks for all of your advice, I'll have to make some sort of decision by tomorrow. Again I appreciate it :smallsmile:

[only1doug]

Oh right, yes of course... I keep forgetting that caster level and character level are far from the same thing :smallredface: Hmmm yes I see what you mean, even at high levels only relatively low buffs would be possible. I mean giving someone +4 Strength all day isn't anything to sniff at, but by that time they'd likely have a heap of magical items to achieve similar effects...

Sorry yeah I got confused, reading as I was form d20srd.org it seemed like everything on that page was for dieties. Thanks for being patient with me :smallsmile:

Actually I would agree with your interpretation, "everything on that page is only for the use of Deities".

If your GM gives access to other sources for access then you could take it as a mortal, without that other access (complete divine) you have to abide by the restrictions on the page.


Feats

Deities can obtain the feats described here, in addition to any standard feats.

This differentiates the feats on the page from standard feats (which are available for all characters) thereby indicating that they are an exception and thus not generally available.

Your GM may be able to be persuaded to allow access but I wouldnt assume that he will let you take any feat from that page without getting his approval in advance.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Actually I would agree with your interpretation, "everything on that page is only for the use of Deities".

...

Those feats are general feats. With prerequisites like BAB +4. I can count 4-5 that got reprinted in CWar. They're not just for deities.

[house.au]

Kind of a two-part follow up question:

1) Considering that as a Human I take no penalty for Multiclassing, would you do so in my position?

2) What class would you recommend for the multiclass if I do decide to?

I'm kind of thinking of just taking a level in something or other just because I can/there may be some benefit in it for me, but I'm not sure if I shouldn't just Cleric it all the way to the hilt...