Obscure monk options [3.5]

[Godskook]

Ok, so I've got a player who's gotta GNC, and his previous character was a Warblade. He wants to come back as a monk, but doesn't like ToB, or anything with spells/powers/soulmelds or similar abilities.

Are there any things I can suggest to him that'll be able to boost him up a little, considering how little the class originally offers. I don't want to outright ban the class cause it is a useful dip in too many builds, and the player really doesn't like the goto tier 3+ stuff.

The party, for reference, is:
Rogue 1/Druid 2(going D-Shaper)
Wizard 2/Crusader 1(going gish, probably JPM)
Scout/Ranger(Swift Hunter)
Crusader 3

To give an idea of party optimization, the ToB PCs have an excessively easy time contributing, but frequently lean heavily on the chassis for that, often forgetting about or poorly selecting maneuvers. The Swift Hunter, back when the party was level 6(they've deleveled), was far and away the best DPR in the group. The casters are both new, and receive a good deal of their optimization from suggestions I make, and rarely appreciate the power they bring to the table.

Oh, and finally, the game is going to eventually get Gestalt with a somewhat forgiving ruleset, so that might influence suggestions some.

(I am giving the monk Full BAB and "Gauntlets are unarmed strikes")

[Lateral]

Does he have a problem with homebrew? There are several homebrew fixes that are far better than the standard Monk. (I'm partial to T.G Oskar's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126346) or Jiriku's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122), myself; take a look. More importantly, have your player take a look.)

Aside from that, there's a Chaotic Monk or something in a Dragon Magazine that gets a flurry of blows for... 1d4 attacks, I think. It's better on average than a standard Monk, and since you're no longer lawful you can dip Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian to get pounce, which ought to help with the FoB vs. movement boosts thing.

[Big Fau]

There's also the Dark Moon Monk, but I forget the source. It makes the Monk worth taking beyond 6th level, but not too much farther.

[Greenish]

Invisible Fist ACF from Exemplars of Evil gets Imp. Invisibility at will but with a short-ish cooldown. Doesn't require Evil, either.

[Godskook]

Does he have a problem with homebrew? There are several homebrew fixes that are far better than the standard Monk. (I'm partial to T.G Oskar's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126346) or Jiriku's fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122), myself; take a look. More importantly, have your player take a look.)

While I'm not opposed to homebrew, I see two major problems with it in this case:

1.The player is wanting simple mechanics, and homebrew solutions tend to never be simple. Both the links are *HUGE*.

2.Homebrew base classes take forever to understand well enough to be comfortable with on a level needed to bring them into a campaign, which I'd want before allowing it.

[Gavinfoxx]

Monk is NOT a simple class to start with. Also Jiriku's fix actually DOESN'T change much. To quote his first design goal,

"The apple shouldn't fall far from the tree. I want the class to feel like the PHB monk and play like the PHB monk, but to contribute more successfully to a wider variety of situations, and not inspire 20-page bile-filled forum arguments."

[Telonius]

Okay, no new mechanics, needs to be simple ...

My personal quick and dirty houserule fix to monks might help. Full BAB, can enchant his own "armor"/improved unarmed strike as though he had the Craft Magic Arms/Armor feat.

Monk goes very well with a spellcaster class on the other side of the gestalt. Cleric is traditionally used thanks to Wisdom synergy, any of the others work well too.

[Diarmuid]

How does the ability to enchant as if he had the feats help if he doesnt have the spells necessary for the various enchantments?

[Godskook]

Monk is NOT a simple class to start with. Also Jiriku's fix actually DOESN'T change much. To quote his first design goal,

1.Point, but while I understand such logics, my player may or may not appreciate them.

2.I didn't actually read either fix properly, but reading Jiriku's now proved to be quite similar to the original, except with a tune-up where needed(and some slight adjustments to throw Monk into the skill-monkey playfield). It'd still take a while to fully appreciate what's changed, but it doesn't seem too bad.

[DeAnno]

Chaos Monk, or if your player doesn't want to deal with the newness of Chaos, just nixing the align requirement for Pounce-barian, will be quite helpful. If we're looking for more easy fixes, twelve-sided hit dice could easily be explained as a Monk's perfect conditioning. If you still think he needs more, the monk luckily has a lot of numerical features that can be buffed up (unarmed damage, speed boost, AC boost).

[Greenish]

Allowing monks to enchant their unarmed strike and skin as if they were weapons and armour, following the rules for Ancestral Relic, perhaps? Then full BAB, flurry as a standard action and the monk would be a tad better. Throw in wis to attack & damage at some (early) point, maybe.

[Human Paragon 3]

My Better Monk Fighting Styles (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=143252) are simpler to impliment, but nowhere near as good at Jiriku's fix.

[faceroll]

1 level dip in Shiba Protector from OA gives wisdom to attack and damage. Pretty crappy feat pre-reqs, and requires human only. And some fluff stuff.

[Metahuman1]

ok, here's what's new and old On Jiriku's monk fix.

New: Can move and attack more then once in a round. Make's Flurry of blows + Fast movement a worthwhile combo till haste becomes common, then makes haste more useful at that point.

Old: Flurry was a full attack, thus you could use one, or the other, a round, not both, unless you used a later intorduced option such as Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 for Pounce or Cleric 1 and Travel Devotion Feat.


New: More skill points, Trapfinding, and a few new class skills. You can now do the rouge's job of handling lots of skill checks and still be an effective melee combatant.

Old: All you could do was fight.

New: Slow fall at lvl 20 is as good as a ring of feather fall, and at levels were your not gonna invest the money in that, it's a bit of a buffer.

Old: Slow fall was useless without DM fiat, and even at 20th lvl, ring of Feather Fall was just flat better.

New: You can dump str after lvl 2-3 with out having too take several feats or dips too do so. This is great because it reduces MAD. Now you Need 3 Stats, and honestly, you can even afford to not have one of those three (Either Dex or Wis) be spectacular if the other one is really good. Still need Con, so you still need at least two really, really good stats, and you want that third one as good as possible, but it's a major improvement.

Old: You HAD to have Str, Dex, Con, Wis, and you likely wanted Wis and Cha.



I cannot Endorse this fix enough.

Alternatively,

House rule: Devotion feats can be used while raging.

Make him a Cloistered Cleric 1/Spirit Lion totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Fist of the Forest 3/ Kensai 6/ Whatever X. Devotion feats should be used on Str, Healing, and Knowledge Devotion, Travel and Animal are Maybe's if you end up with enough feats for it. Your Missing 1 point of BAB, but you've got Solid Unarmed Damage that can Bypass a lot of Hardness and DR, some Fast Healing for between fights, an impressive STR score during battle, plenty of movement + Full attack, and decent Defenses with the right magic Items and feats, of course.

[Godskook]

How good are the monk prestige class options, such as Drunken master and tattooed monk(and others I'm not as familiar with)?

(i'm already familiar with Shiba Protector)

[Lateral]

Not too great, for the most part. The best ones are the ones that combine them with casting classes (Enlightened Fist, Sacred Fist) or give them a manifesting progression (Psionic Fist, Zerth Cenobite).

Honestly, Jiriku's fix is pretty simple to get if you already know the standard Monk. Its stat block is pretty intimidating, but most of the abilities are Monk abilities that have been retooled; the Monk stat block is pretty intimidating at first as well, after all.

[NecroRick]

Play to his strengths:

Deflect arrows is pretty godly, especially at the levels you're looking at.
Evasion = no damage (again) - but the range of attack types is kind of narrow (and he has to make the save... but he has good saves).

Try actually using ranged attackers against the group. Fight in corridors instead of/as well as rooms, with a tank in front (blocking) access to a blaster/archer.

Also... I dunno... more opportunities to fall off things... (use lots of 30 foot pit traps) (though that and the ability to damage things with DR/magic don't kick in until 4th level).

If from 4th level onwards you throw lots of DR/magic opponents against them, the other players will be feeling the pinch financially to buy magic weapons (unless your middle name is monty).

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I kind of get the impression that a lot of encounters don't use much ranged attack, and pit traps are a relative rarity. The Monk has lots of strengths, just that nobody plays to them, and the DMs are largely at fault for that.

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Other fixes

Monks and weapons:
At low levels it actually makes sense to flurry of blows with a weapon, because even if it has the same damage it has a better crit range... suggested fix (a) point this out to the player and (b) give the weapons better crits - either extend the range or add one to the multiplier when used by a monk (special monk weapons only).

Healing:
Paladin lay on hands got a boost, why not give monks level x wisdom modifier points of healing to even it up again?

Magic Items:
Monks get shafted big time because monk items cost 6x what they are actually worth. As a roleplaying reward you could reduce the costs by 10x (yes, 10x) if the monk is playing in keeping with his monasteries goals.
(If you need a justification for this, it is likely that prior monks would have designated their monastery as their beneficiary in whatever equivalent to a will you have in your game world)

AC:
A subset of the above, monks can get a high AC if they get their hands on some standard magic user stuff - Mage Armour, Shield etc. but that stuff is expensive because wizards poop cheese.

MAD reduction:
As a melee class monks are heavily dependent on Str, Dex and Con. Their monky powers work off Wisdom (in theory). Reduce the MAD a little. Have the players choose either hard or soft style of martial arts
Level 2
Hard - the player gains 'iron skin' and instead of adding dex to AC they add str
Soft - the player gets Weapon Finesse for free with unarmed and all monk weapons (only)
Level 3
Combat meditation additional feature to still mind: as a full round action meditate/gather your Ki (glowing ball of Ki optional/DMs discretion) so that next round you can add your wis bonus to attack and damage rolls (and yes, smart opponents will move away at this point...)
Level 5
If the character can make a concentration check for meditation they can use their wis bonus for hp instead of their con bonus (essentially a freebie bonus to the purity of body feature). The effect of meditation lasts 1 hour/class level
Level 7
If meditation is in effect spell resistance equal to class level + wis (no, it's not much, but it might help occasionally, and mages seem to think a 20% miss chance is a big deal)
Level 9 (based on earlier hard/soft choice)
Hard: reduce the hardness of any object they target by their strength mod
Soft: apply dex to weapon damage instead of str
Level 11
Spell resistance equal to class level +5 + wis (if meditated)
Level 13
Spell resistance equal to class level +10 + wis (if meditated)
Level 14 (based on earlier hard/soft choice)
Hard: athletic dodge - can use str instead of dex for reflex saves
Soft: flowing ki - can use wis instead of con for fort saves

Bonus Feats:
Add Whirlwind Attack to the options for the 6th level bonus feat
At 12th level when they gain abundant step, give them Sun School Monk as a freebie feat (allows them to attack after stepping). Also allow them to do this levels times per day, not once per day.

Solo Combat:
Stunning Fist is pointless in solo combat. As an option, on a successful stunning fist attack, allow them to expend one (only) additional daily use to extend the effect for one additional round (only).

[The Glyphstone]

I was going to suggest Invisible Fist, but it's been mentioned.

As for strengths - ranged attackers are a monk's worst nightmare, especially if they can also fly. Without a spellcaster backing him up, he's stuck...I dunno, pewpewing shurikens at them?

[Safety Sword]

I've always thought the monk should get some sort of "air stepping" ability.

It should require the monk to keep moving and so would also require the aforementioned flurry as a standard action fix. You need to make it so that there needs to be an attack on the end of it or it will be used to go over foes, but even that isn't game breaking if you allow it.

I know it's not flight, but with a higher than average movement speed it should allow the monk to at least engage flying foes.

Flight is always going to be a tough one for melee characters to deal with without caster support.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, what about Skirmish every odd level and an ability to Flurry as a standard action? That seems pretty simple and it seems to fit thematically. Might need to get toned down a bit.

Still, I think if he wants something simple then extra damage does it for combat. Point him at the Mage Slayer Feats or do something like them as well.

[Safety Sword]

Hmm, what about Skirmish every odd level and an ability to Flurry as a standard action? That seems pretty simple and it seems to fit thematically. Might need to get toned down a bit.

Still, I think if he wants something simple then extra damage does it for combat. Point him at the Mage Slayer Feats or do something like them as well.

I think skirmish is a bit too far from type. You want to punch people in the face, that's why you take monk class levels (usually, settle down, I know I'm generalising). You just need some help so that a Level 3 arcane spell doesn't invalidate your entire suite of attack options.

[Drachasor]

I think skirmish is a bit too far from type. You want to punch people in the face, that's why you take monk class levels (usually, settle down, I know I'm generalising). You just need some help so that a Level 3 arcane spell doesn't invalidate your entire suite of attack options.

Skirmish works with punching people in the face. It works well with moving around and punching people in the face.

Seems like running up, punching in the face, and tumbling around to the other side of them and punching them on the other side of the face, is pretty monk-like to me.

That it helps with ranged projectiles is just icing on the cake.

I like the ancestral weapon on monk's unarmed attack idea. I'd add that they should be able to apply that enchantment to any weapon they wield (if the weapon is enchanted and of less or equal power, they can pick which set of enchantments to use).

Toss in some stuff to help them avoid shut-downs, like Freedom of Movement at mid levels makes sense.

[Safety Sword]

Skirmish works with punching people in the face. It works well with moving around and punching people in the face.

Seems like running up, punching in the face, and tumbling around to the other side of them and punching them on the other side of the face, is pretty monk-like to me.

That it helps with ranged projectiles is just icing on the cake.

You're right. I wasn't thinking of using skirmish in a melee attack at all. That could actually be pretty fun and would increase effectiveness.

[Randomguy]

If you don't want an overcomplicated fix, here's a simplified version of things to change, in order of importance:

1. Give monks dex to damage and attack instead of strength to reduce MAD.
2. Give monks full bab or wis to attack and damage rolls (not both).
3. Make wholeness of body heal wis mod times monk level, instead of monk level times two.
4. Make abundant step usable wis mod times per day.
5. Move tongue of the sun and the moon to level 7.
6. Make quivering palm usable wis mod times per day/once per day instead of once per week.
7. Change the damage reduction from 10/magic to 10/chaotic.
8. Give monks 6+int skill points per level.

[Godskook]

I kind of get the impression that a lot of encounters don't use much ranged attack, and pit traps are a relative rarity. The Monk has lots of strengths, just that nobody plays to them, and the DMs are largely at fault for that.

I have a hard time taking you seriously after this sentence, for the following:

1.Monks have no special ability that ties them to being better than others at fighting ranged opponents. Deflect Arrows is as much a monk feat as Power Attack is a fighter feat(read: it isn't). It's also only usable 1/round, making it insufficient for dealing with mooks with bows.

2.Monks don't have a lot of strengths, they have a lot of potential, in the same way that a corvette in a junkyard has potential: There's something inherently worth saving, but let's be honest, its going to take a lot of work.

3.DMs who discourage the monk class in favor of other options, like Hybrid Prestige classes, Tashalatora, or Unarmed Swordsage are almost always doing their players a favor as the listed options are strictly better than Monk 20. Unarmed Swordsage is practically identical in performance, except where better. The others are actually leaning on the other side of the hybrid for most of the power, and cherry-picking all the best parts of the monk class to enhance that other side with.

------------------------------

@Lateral, as far as prestige class options go, I only need to push him into optimized tier 4 territory before I can stop worrying. An optimized tier 4 can perform quite well at my table, but I'm not really familiar with the prestige options the monk can use that don't also require hybridization.

[Metahuman1]

If you don't want an overcomplicated fix, here's a simplified version of things to change, in order of importance:

1. Give monks dex to damage and attack instead of strength to reduce MAD.
2. Give monks full bab or wis to attack and damage rolls (not both).
3. Make wholeness of body heal wis mod times monk level, instead of monk level times two.
4. Make abundant step usable wis mod times per day.
5. Move tongue of the sun and the moon to level 7.
6. Make quivering palm usable wis mod times per day/once per day instead of once per week.
7. Change the damage reduction from 10/magic to 10/chaotic.
8. Give monks 6+int skill points per level.
9: Give them a d10-12 Hit Die. Monks are famous for low AC, this will give him a better chance of surviving the hits he's gonna take, especially as levels progress.

[Lateral]

@Lateral, as far as prestige class options go, I only need to push him into optimized tier 4 territory before I can stop worrying. An optimized tier 4 can perform quite well at my table, but I'm not really familiar with the prestige options the monk can use that don't also require hybridization.

That's the thing- without hybridization, I'm not sure that a monk can be pushed into tier 4 with prestige classes.

[Telonius]

How does the ability to enchant as if he had the feats help if he doesnt have the spells necessary for the various enchantments?

That was the quick description. Essentially, he's treated as if he has all the options he would have if he were an equivalent-level casting class. If he's level 9, any enhancements that require a 5th-level arcane (or divine, as the case may be) spell are fair game. Alignment enhancements require the Monk to actually be the alignment he's enchanting. So a typical Monk could have an actual Axiomatic unarmed strike (not just regular Ki strike lawful), but not an Anarchic unarmed strike. If you use the Chaos Monk variant, he could get Anarchic but not Axiomatic. The Monk is still limited by his Monk level, for the total bonus he's allowed.

This ability is specific only to the Monk. He cannot use this ability to assist a non-Monk to create a magic weapon or armor. He cannot use it to craft an actual magic weapon or armor if he happens to have an actual spellcasting class (or ability like the Artificer, etc). A Monk can assist an equal- or lower-level Monk with the self-enchantment ceremony. However, the resulting enchantment cannot cause the lower-level Monk to exceed his maximum bonus.

[Curmudgeon]

It seems like your player wants to play the class straight rather than going with homebrew changes. That makes improvement tougher, but not impossible.

Greenish mentioned the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil, page 21). This is an excellent suggestion. It does involve sacrificing evasion at Monk 2, so presenting a Ring of Evasion as treasure somewhere would be quite helpful. This ACF makes continuing in Monk instead of with a prestige class a better option, because in addition to getting invisibility every third round, at level 9 you get Blink for a number of rounds dependent on your WIS modifier.

The various multiclassing feats don't offer any significant power-ups; they're more suited to boosting the second class with a Monk dip than the other way around. Monk unarmed damage could be greatly increased by a daily casting of Greater Mighty Wallop (Sorcerer/Wizard 3; Races of the Dragon, page 115), but you would need a full arcane spellcaster in the party.

As for adding magical enhancements to unarmed strike, there's already an official solution to that: a Necklace of Natural Attacks, here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20060707a) (bottom of the page). The cost for enhancing a single natural attack (unarmed strike) is the same as for a single magic weapon.

There are two feats I recommend for most Monks:

Falling Star Strike (Oriental Adventures, page 62; confirmed as unaltered for 3.5 in Dragon # 318) @ level 6: any attack against a Humanoid gets a reasonable chance of blinding them. Requires Stunning Fist and WIS 17.
Snap Kick (Tome of Battle, page 32) @ level 9: add an extra unarmed strike when you make at least one melee attack. This is superior to flurry of blows because it doesn't require a full attack; it'll also work with a standard action attack or an AoO.

You can also suggest the player check out some of the Monk fighting style options found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#monkVariantFightingSty les). These sacrifice some flexibility of choice to gain extra abilities. I like the Hand and Foot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#handandFoot) style.

[Graytemplar]

Do you consider the vow of poverty from book of exalted deeds to complicated? I think it would actually simplify things, as you are foregoing weapons or more feats and stat/AC/Damage boosts

[The Glyphstone]

Do you consider the vow of poverty from book of exalted deeds to complicated? I think it would actually simplify things, as you are foregoing weapons or more feats and stat/AC/Damage boosts

The as-printed VoP is awful, as it takes away the one hope a monk has of not being dependent on spellcasters for fighting enemies he can't just walk up to and punch in the face. There are homebrew VoP's out there, but you don't want the BoED one.

[Godskook]

Do you consider the vow of poverty from book of exalted deeds to complicated? I think it would actually simplify things, as you are foregoing weapons or more feats and stat/AC/Damage boosts

I consider it underpowered, even at my group's level of gameplay, especially cause I tend towards going over, rather than under WBL in almost all situations except those where the party decides to interact with forces that are beyond their capability to appease(Twice so far in the first year of gameplay).

@Curmudgeon, you're quite the monk expert, as I've seen in the past, but sadly, the wisdoms given are at least 75% known already to me. Anything particularly notable in the prestige class region?

[faceroll]

Have you looked into increasing damage with increasing fist size? What about ways to get a move and a full attack?

[Godskook]

I know basic warrior optimization ideas, including stuff that'd be learned playing an unarmed swordsage.

It's the stuff you only really look at if you're an actually, bonafide monk that I'm not too familiar cause I always went "pass" cause it wasn't friendly with the class types I typically liked talking about(Arcane and its hybrids, ToB, MoI, etc)

[faceroll]

You're definitely going to want to get pounce, or a similar affect. Unfortunately, outside of spells, turning into a monster, and mis-reading of the feral template, the only other way I know of getting it is a level in spirite lion totem barbarian. I would be tempted just to let the monk make flurry of blow full attacks a standard action.

I suppose Travel Devotion (and a source of turning) would let him get an extra move as a swift action a couple times a day. You could pick that up as a Cloistered Cleric. Nab Knowledge Devotion while you're there. Just trade out your travel and knowledge domains. Knowledge Devotion will get the monk at least +1 insight bonus to hit and damage at level 1 to any monsters that he has trained in the relevant knowledge, which will make up for the loss of BAB. He can pick up Collector of Stories at level 2 or 3 to bump that up to like 1.5 or 2 more attack and damage.

But that's really fiddly and I think just throwing the monk another bone would be the better route. I did that, and I haven't really had any problems.

I consider Improved Natural Attack and Superior Unarmed Strike monk feat taxes. With full BAB, the monk should qualify for those sooner. With both those feats by level 9, that's 3d6 damage on a punch. Not bad.

You know what, I would just give him a fighter//monk gestalt. If he wants simple, he can pick up stuff like TWF (if you'll allow it) and weapon focus: unarmed strike. Weapon focus line adds up when you're making a lot of attacks.

[Curmudgeon]

@Curmudgeon, you're quite the monk expert, as I've seen in the past, but sadly, the wisdoms given are at least 75% known already to me. Anything particularly notable in the prestige class region? Most PrCs don't mesh well with Monk. The Shou Disciple (Unapproachable East, pages 32-34) is a semi-regional, almost-3.5 option worth considering. It sacrifices Will saves and Monk special abilities for faster BAB and unarmed damage increase, and an improvement to the Dodge feat benefit (an entry requirement). That's going to be tough to integrate unless your campaign incorporates Forgotten Realms material, because a special entry requirement is regional feat access. (You can also fudge it with Knowledge (Shou local region) as a throwaway skill requirement, if you're the DM.)

If your setting is actually Faerûn then a Monk could benefit from the Dark Creature template in Cormyr: The Tearing Of The Weave (page 52). Unlike the general Dark Creature template in Tome of Magic, the Faerûn-only one has Hide in Plain Sight as a Supernatural ability, like the Assassin/Shadowdancer HiPS. (It's LA +1, which would put the character 3,000 XP behind with LA buyoff at character level 3.) This would help a lot to let the Monk deliver flurry of blows full attacks with a lower chance of effective full counterattacks, since the Monk could then make a 5' adjustment away and with a good Hide check the opponent would have to guess which square to attack into, and still have a 50% chance of missing.

If the party has decent wealth, and perhaps a character skilled in Diplomacy, they could help out the Monk by purchasing a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide, page 137). It's expensive, but is only needed for 4 weeks of training. After that training the Monk can make 10' adjustments in place of 5' adjustments. Diplomacy's Haggle option (Complete Adventurer, pages 98-99) allows talking prices down to 9/10th of list; the same skill should allow talking resale prices up to 10/9th of the usual half list. A party that allowed use of common funds for 4 weeks could support the Monk's training, and after resale the training cost could be within just the Monk's WbL as early as level 6. Even without Hide in Plain Sight the ability to move 10' after a full attack could greatly reduce the chance of a full counterattack.

[Elric VIII]

I would just like to recommend a 3-4 level dip into Ardent. This nets you 11-17 pp and you can get a few low level powers that work very nicely with Monk.

For instance, Sun School tactical feat + Snap Kick + Dimension Hop lets you teleport as a swift action and get 2 free attacks. Then you have your FoB after you're next to someone. this costs 1 pp, so you can do it 17 times/day.

[HunterOfJello]

Try showing the player the Wildshape Ranger and Master of Many Forms. That's a good combination for a no magic, no psionics, no incarnum, no ToB character who runs around damaging things with natural attacks.

[Elric VIII]

I would just like to recommend a 3-4 level dip into Ardent. This nets you 11-17 pp and you can get a few low level powers that work very nicely with Monk.

For instance, Sun School tactical feat + Snap Kick + Dimension Hop lets you teleport as a swift action and get 2 free attacks. Then you have your FoB after you're next to someone. this costs 1 pp, so you can do it 17 times/day.

[Gwendol]

Look at races, such as Goliath or half-giant. That will make the grappling and tripping matter from their size bonuses, and adding feats like imp bull rush and knock-back. Consider a 2-level dip of dungeoncrasher, and you'll have a decent damage-dealing character that can be fun to play with for a while.

[Esgath]

Oh well. You could combine the wild monk (Dragon Magazine 324, just google the pdf) with the Invisible Fist ACF (Exemplars of Evil) and the Dark Moon Disciple ACF (Champions of Valor Web Enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a)). Fist of the Forest (Complete Champion) would match perfectly. Just refluff it, if it doesn't fit his style.

[Godskook]

@Elric, manifesting is called out as one of the things the player isn't interested in.

@HoJello, wildshaping is quite magical, and I fear it is also in the "too complex" category my player is wanting to get away from.

@Curmudgeon, considering there's 13 or more effective monk levels out there in non-level form, Shou Disciple seems to offer very little for a build that's promising to have more than 2 monk levels in it.

[Esgath]

Maybe this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1354.msg35417#msg35417) will help with wildshape. Most work is done for him, he just has to pick the appropriate form for his level.

[NecroRick]

As for strengths - ranged attackers are a monk's worst nightmare,

Except that they can't damage him.

The great thing about Deflect Arrows is that although, yes, it can only be used once per round, you only need to use it if the arrow would actually hit you.

So there could be ten arrows fired at you in a single round, but you only deflect the one that actually hit.

Picture this: the party of five runs up against 10 mooks - whether goblins or kobolds, doesn't matter. The mooks all fire. Let's say they spread their fire around, and two shoot at each PC.

They might get two rounds of this before melee. The Monk is most likely completely unscratched. The almighty wizard with his godlike powers of battlefield control is most probably crawling around in the dust screaming "MEDIC!!". Everyone else will likely have taken at least one arrow.

Is it game breaking? No. Is it good tactics on the monsters part... possibly. Is it going to make the Monk look like a bullet-proof superhero? Most definitely.

Can you throw archers/ranged attacks into just about any encounter? Yep. In the city? Oh, there's a sniper or two up on the roofs. In a dungeon? That guy at the back next to the dude in the pointy hat and the long out of fashion robes? There's your archer.

It requires a stronger justification to say why the players _never_ run into ranged attacks than it does to add them in every now and again.



especially if they can also fly. Without a spellcaster backing him up, he's stuck...I dunno, pewpewing shurikens at them?

They're level three. So flying opponents seems unlikely.

Also, how amazing is it that the opponents have access to flying, but the players don't!? Of course, that only lasts one encounter, and then the players kill the bad guys and loot their junk, and now the players can fly too.

[Elric VIII]

@Elric, manifesting is called out as one of the things the player isn't interested in.

My appologies. I had assumed that you meant no Monk 1/Psionic Class 19.

In that case, I recommend trying a two-handed weapon with PA*. This will significantly increase his damage potential. While you are heading in this direction, you might want to take Monastic Training for Fighter, so you can muticlass between the two. This way you can pick up Dungeoncrasher and supplement your BAB a little.


*The Monk can use a quarterstaff for this, there are also some feats that allow you to flurry with polearms or a double sword. Note, however, that FoB only adds 1xStr, no matter what weapon you use.

[NecroRick]

Deflect Arrows is as much a monk feat as Power Attack is a fighter feat(read: it isn't).

Monks can pick it up as a freebie at level two.

Whereas a fighter would have to blow his two fighter feats to get it, and anybody else would have to blow their lvl 1 feat and racial (human/halfling) feat to get it.

I just don't see that happening. However, in a realistic campaign players would in fact run into lots of missile fire, and so you might see people (other than the monks) start to consider it as a viable tactic.

[Curmudgeon]

@Curmudgeon, considering there's 13 or more effective monk levels out there in non-level form, Shou Disciple seems to offer very little for a build that's promising to have more than 2 monk levels in it.
I've got no idea what you're talking about here. Care to enlighten me?

[Godskook]

I've got no idea what you're talking about here. Care to enlighten me?

1.Near as I can tell, Shou Disciple's most alluring feature is the advanced progression of unarmed damage.

2*.Between a Monk's Belt, Monk's Tattoo, and Superior Unarmed Strike, you're sitting at a base +13 Monk levels before your class levels get factored into it(Even with just monk's belt and SUS, with 3 monk levels, that's still 12). You only need 12 total monk levels to make Shou Disciple's 'fast progression' not any faster than other options, negating the primary reason to take the class.

*I'm the DM, it works this way at my table

[Godskook]

Except that they can't damage him.

With poor AC(no shield, wis can't compensate for good armor), most attacks from foes are likely to hit, meaning if they focus him, he negates 1 out of 6-8 attacks he'd eat in a round. If they don't focus him, they're focusing someone else, which means he's negating nothing. So he's either dead or his feat's useless.


The great thing about Deflect Arrows is that although, yes, it can only be used once per round, you only need to use it if the arrow would actually hit you.

So there could be ten arrows fired at you in a single round, but you only deflect the one that actually hit.

Poor AC, they're all going to hit.


Picture this: the party of five runs up against 10 mooks - whether goblins or kobolds, doesn't matter. The mooks all fire. Let's say they spread their fire around, and two shoot at each PC.

I'm sorry but stormtroopers don't exist in my universe. Using the "enemies use bad tactics" strategy isn't going to win anyone anything.


They might get two rounds of this before melee. The Monk is most likely completely unscratched. The almighty wizard with his godlike powers of battlefield control is most probably crawling around in the dust screaming "MEDIC!!". Everyone else will likely have taken at least one arrow.

2 rounds of solid archer fire will down any one PC, and deflect arrows only makes sure it takes a few more arrows.


Is it game breaking? No. Is it good tactics on the monsters part... possibly. Is it going to make the Monk look like a bullet-proof superhero? Most definitely.

"See, I told you he could only catch one"


It requires a stronger justification to say why the players _never_ run into ranged attacks than it does to add them in every now and again.

Archers are common staple in my game, as are many ranged attackers that don't use things that deflect arrows works against, like Warlocks(who provide more reliable DPR)


They're level three. So flying opponents seems unlikely.

Also, how amazing is it that the opponents have access to flying, but the players don't!? Of course, that only lasts one encounter, and then the players kill the bad guys and loot their junk, and now the players can fly too.

Raptorans are CR 1
9 out of 10 dragons have young who are CR 4 or less
Hawks are CR 1/3, a tad more if trained for war(which they were)
Air Elementals have CR 1 and 3 versions
Grig and Pixie are both relevant Fey
WereEagles exist in my setting and have a low CR
I count at least 5 magical beasts in the SRD that can fly
Gargolyes
I'm not bothering to even count the outsiders, but Mephits aren't the only ones here who can fly.
Alter Self would provide it too, but I nerfed the spell, and I'm not sure if that function still works.

And none of the above requires magical items or other things the party can 'steal'.

[tyckspoon]

@Elric, manifesting is called out as one of the things the player isn't interested in.

@HoJello, wildshaping is quite magical, and I fear it is also in the "too complex" category my player is wanting to get away from.


How complex can we get? 'cause it kinda sounds like the player just wants "beat face with unarmed strikes" which could be done just fine by a Fighter bearing Superior Unarmed Strike.. also, if your ToB players are doing fine just by using the raw numerical chassis of the classes and not making good use of maneuvers, a Monk with full BAB and perhaps Flurry attacks as a standard action would probably do fine without further intervention.

[Metahuman1]

Well, you could do the poison Healer build and use Decisive Strike. That's not too bad a build for awhile.

[Godskook]

How complex can we get? 'cause it kinda sounds like the player just wants "beat face with unarmed strikes" which could be done just fine by a Fighter bearing Superior Unarmed Strike.. also, if your ToB players are doing fine just by using the raw numerical chassis of the classes and not making good use of maneuvers, a Monk with full BAB and perhaps Flurry attacks as a standard action would probably do fine without further intervention.

Well, on the flipside, our Swift Hunter feels inferior to all his compatriots, lacking the spellcasting or maneuvers of his fellows, despite having a higher damage per round than everyone short of the old Warblade, and being the only one with strong skill monkey focus. Mind, he isn't a problem in the party, but he's tier 4 and optimized, while a monk is tier 5 and that player doesn't optimize as well.

In practice, I'm not sure if the player will even take my advice, or if he'll decide to go his own way, but I want to able to offer educated advice regardless.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Except that they can't damage him.

The great thing about Deflect Arrows is that although, yes, it can only be used once per round, you only need to use it if the arrow would actually hit you.

So there could be ten arrows fired at you in a single round, but you only deflect the one that actually hit.

Picture this: the party of five runs up against 10 mooks - whether goblins or kobolds, doesn't matter. The mooks all fire. Let's say they spread their fire around, and two shoot at each PC.

They might get two rounds of this before melee. The Monk is most likely completely unscratched. The almighty wizard with his godlike powers of battlefield control is most probably crawling around in the dust screaming "MEDIC!!". Everyone else will likely have taken at least one arrow.

Is it game breaking? No. Is it good tactics on the monsters part... possibly. Is it going to make the Monk look like a bullet-proof superhero? Most definitely.

Is the concept of focus fire abhorrent to you for some reason? Because any mook will quickly figure out that they should all aim at the guy with no armor and no magic powers who only managed to deflect one arrow. And your calculations are wrong. The monk has low AC, and the wizard can spend a single spell slot to get good defenses (blur, invisibility, greater invisibility, mirror image, X image to make the illusion of a small wall, wall of stone, wall of force, etc), so the wizard's not rolling around screaming medic, the monk is.

[blackmage]

I've always thought the monk should get some sort of "air stepping" ability.

The Pathfinder monk can get this through a chain of feats. Spider Step (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spider-step) and Cloud Step (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/cloud-step). I almost think this is better than abundant step, or at least a bit less over-the-top magical.

[NecroRick]

Is the concept of focus fire abhorrent to you for some reason?

Well, only that no wizard would survive to level 2 if you guys truly and honestly applied the principle of focused fire on the biggest threat.

I'm betting that you guys give the wizard a 'free pass' for the first four levels.

But hey, wizards are all powerful, and melee cannot have nice things. Sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy to me.



The monk has low AC,


If the monk has low AC, you're "doing it wrong" as they say.



and the wizard can spend a single spell slot to get good defenses (blur, invisibility, greater invisibility, mirror image, X image to make the illusion of a small wall, wall of stone, wall of force, etc),


Really? REALLY? You have level 3 wizards that throw down a wall of force in every combat?

I do not think we are playing the same game señor.


so the wizard's not rolling around screaming medic, the monk is.

Not true. A 20% miss chance is not going to save the wizards ass.

Honestly, is your ingrained belief in the superiority of the wizard that much of an article of faith with you that you are prepared to sit there and tell me I'm an idiot when I say that a 100% miss chance is better than a 20% miss chance???

[Hiro Protagonest]

Well, only that no wizard would survive to level 2 if you guys truly and honestly applied the principle of focused fire on the biggest threat.

I'm betting that you guys give the wizard a 'free pass' for the first four levels.

But hey, wizards are all powerful, and melee cannot have nice things. Sounds like a self fulfilling prophecy to me.
Sleep, Alarm, Mage Armor, Protection From Alignment, Grease, Expeditious Retreat.



If the monk has low AC, you're "doing it wrong" as they say.
Come on then, give me a low level monk with an AC higher than 16 with 32 PB and not having horrible attack/damage/HP/skills. AC isn't the only thing they focus on, and you seem to be talking about level 3.



Really? REALLY? You have level 3 wizards that throw down a wall of force in every combat?

I do not think we are playing the same game señor.
You seem to be ignoring the many lower level protection options.

Not true. A 20% miss chance is not going to save the wizards ass.

Honestly, is your ingrained belief in the superiority of the wizard that much of an article of faith with you that you are prepared to sit there and tell me I'm an idiot when I say that a 100% miss chance is better than a 20% miss chance???

Fog Cloud. Invisibility. Web. All those are available at level 3.

Edit: Protection From Arrows, Mirror Image.

[Elric VIII]

Come on then, give me a low level monk with an AC higher than 16 with 32 PB and not having horrible attack/damage/HP/skills. AC isn't the only thing they focus on, and you seem to be talking about level 3.

The Monk just has to UMD a wand of Alter Self into a Troglodyte for +6 NA, get his Sorcerer buddy to cast Mage Armor and Shield on him for another +8, get his Artificer buddy to make him a Ring of Protection +1, and get his Druid buddy to cast Magic Fang on him. Let's see a Wizard match that.

[Gwendol]

Sleep, Alarm, Mage Armor, Protection From Alignment, Grease, Expeditious Retreat.Come on then, give me a low level monk with an AC higher than 16 with 32 PB and not having horrible attack/damage/HP/skills. AC isn't the only thing they focus on, and you seem to be talking about level 3.You seem to be ignoring the many lower level protection options.

Fog Cloud. Invisibility. Web. All those are available at level 3.

Edit: Protection From Arrows, Mirror Image.

Challenge taken. AC 16 is easily reached, with shield of faith + protection from evil you get to AC 20. Flying kick is from OA and gives double unarmed damage on a charge. A potion of barkskin or similar would be good to add.

Goliath Monk 2/Cleric of Kavaki 2

ABILITIES
Final
Base Racial Magic Misc Ability / Mod
Bonus Item Score

STR: 16 +4 -- -- 20 / +5
DEX: 14 -2 -- -- 12 / +1
CON: 14 +2 -- -- 16 / +3
INT: 10 -- -- -- 10 / +0
WIS: 16 -- +2 +1 19 / +4
CHA: 08 -- -- -- 08 / -1

+1 Ability Increase every 4th level is added to Base number.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMBAT STATISTICS

ARMOR CLASS
AC Total : 16
AC when Flat-Footed 15
AC vs Touch Attack 15
Base: 10
Armor: --
Shield: --
Dexterity: +1
Size: --
Magic: +1
Misc.: +4
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
SAVING THROWS

Total Base Ability Misc Magic
Fortitude : +6 = 3 + 3 + 0 + 0
Reflex : +4 = 3 + 1 + 0 + 0
Will : +10 = 6 + 4 + 0 + 0
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
RACIAL TRAITS
Powerful build: can use weapons one category larger with no penalty
Is considered one size larger for strength related rolls.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
FEATS Indicate for level, class, race, etc.
Improved grapple (level 1 bonus)
Power attack (level 1)
Combat reflexes (level 2 bonus)
Improved natural weapon (level 3)
Flaw: Shaky (-2 ranged attack rolls)
Flying kick (flaw)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
CLASS ABILITIES

Evasion
Unarmed strike
Flurry of blows
Spontaneous casting: Positive energy (healing)
Turn undead
Domain powers:
Strength: You can perform a feat of strength as a supernatural ability. You gain an enhancement bonus to Strength
equal to your cleric level. Activating the power is a free action, the power lasts 1 round, and it is usable once per day.
Travel: For a total time per day of 1 round per Cleric level you possess, you can act normally regardless of magical
effects that impede movement as if you were affected by the spell freedom of movement. This effect occurs
automatically as soon as it applies, lasts until it runs out or is no longer needed, and can operate multiple times
per day (up to the total daily limit of rounds). Survival is a class skill.


Item # Cost Weight Location Notes
MW Quarterstaff: 300
MW Sling 300
Saddlebags: 4
Backpack: 2
Rope: 1
Grappling hook: 1


Belt of healing (2d8 3/day): 750
Periapt of wisdom +2: 4000
Bracers of armor +1: 1000
Spear +1: 2302

[faceroll]

Don't play monks unless you have good stat scores. The more MAD classes are relics from AD&D where you couldn't even entertain the notion of playing a Paladin or a Ranger without already having a high charisma score or wisdom score in addition to other high ability scores.

A monk doesn't work well on 32 or even 36 pb, but then, point buy is really an optional rule. The system is 4d6 drop the lowest. When you end up with an 18 and two 16s in your stat array, monks play a lot better.

But if you want good AC on your monk (or anything, really), the best option is either a race or a template that's overpowered. Feral template is totally worth it on a monk. You get 2 more attacks, bumps to almost all the ability scores you care about, fast healing, and 7 natural armor.

Also Gwendol, your level 4 character is ECL 5, and half its class levels are cleric. At that level, more than 50% of enemy attacks will be landing.

I would go feral monk2/LA1 for an ECL 3 monk. 4 attacks on a flurry, 17 AC before adding anything at all, and fast healing for that extra endurance.

[Godskook]

Challenge taken.

You failed, horribly.

1.Your listed build fails to achieve the requisite AC(17 being the minimum successful number).

2.Your build does not qualify, as it is too high of a level, by 2(ECL 5 when the challenge is ECL 3).

3.You break the standard rule of not allowing items that exceed ~1/4 your WBL value(Not sure if its RAW or simply accepted in practice).

4.You go over your point-buy restriction by 2

5.By the spirit of the poster your responding to, utilizing caster levels disqualifies the build, as you are simply proving his point by using them. Really, if you wanted to keep to the spirit of the challenge, you'd be going straight monk levels, probably on a LA +0 race too.

-----------------------------------------------

Can we please get the Giacomo-monk arguments out of here now? Its a tired debate in which both sides disagree by an amount too huge to be settled tangentially, and typically locks both threads started to directly discuss the points and those threads which are caught in the crossfire of it. I'd like to leave it at a simple "I disagree with Giacomo, and would like to hear from people who are both familiar with the Monk class and also disagree with him".

[Gwendol]

Lighten up, please.

1.Your listed build fails to achieve the requisite AC(17 being the minimum successful number).

Switch a feat: Flying Kick to Heavy Lithoderm, presto!

2.Your build does not qualify, as it is too high of a level, by 2(ECL 5 when the challenge is ECL 3).

The challenge was "low-level", take away a level or two, whatever you see fit. The LA +1 can be bought-off at level 3 to compensate LA at higher levels.

3.You break the standard rule of not allowing items that exceed ~1/4 your WBL value(Not sure if its RAW or simply accepted in practice).

Sorry about that, wasn't aware of the standard. The items are shown as examples, not as requirements.

4.You go over your point-buy restriction by 2

That was a miscalculation on my end. Drop STR and INT by 2, and add to WIS (will get you to 18)

5.By the spirit of the poster your responding to, utilizing caster levels disqualifies the build, as you are simply proving his point by using them. Really, if you wanted to keep to the spirit of the challenge, you'd be going straight monk levels, probably on a LA +0 race too.

I think that adding a level or two of cleric on a monk build is keeping it very close to the spiritual unarmed warrior theme. I thought it was arcane magic users that were the counterpart here? Then again, you can go straight monk if you want to with this and still do well at low levels. Go half-orc for a +0 race, but I can't see why LA +1 is out of the question.

Faceroll: Feral template is an excellent suggestion. I wholeheartedly agree.

What's a Giacomo monk?

[Greenish]

I think that adding a level or two of cleric on a monk build is keeping it very close to the spiritual unarmed warrior theme.Yes, but this was about Monk the class, not monk the concept, otherwise the challenge would be trivial with any of the usual Monk replacements.

Also, Flying Kick was updated to 3.5 in CW, it now adds flat +1d12 damage on a single unarmed attack when charging.

[Gwendol]

Noted and accepted.
Wasn't aware of the "new" flying kick, which at low levels is actually better than the original version of the feat.

[Hiro Protagonest]

This is about the monk class, not concept. Otherwise people would just prove me wrong with Tashalatora/Psionic Fist/Enlightened Fist (or is it Sacred Fist?)/Fist of the Forest/Unarmed Swordsage.

[Greenish]

This is about the monk class, not concept. Otherwise people would just prove me wrong with Tashalatora/Psionic Fist/Enlightened Fist (or is it Sacred Fist?)/Fist of the Forest/Unarmed Swordsage.Sacred is the divine one, Enlightened is the arcane one.

[Godskook]

What's a Giacomo monk?

Its a belief that monks are better than what the community as a whole, particularly our most capable optimizers and respected guide-makers, have come to accept.

The short version is that myself, Jaronk, and many others think that the Monk is a tier 5 class, which means:


Capable of doing only one thing, and not necessarily all that well, or so unfocused that they have trouble mastering anything, and in many types of encounters the character cannot contribute. In some cases, can do one thing very well, but that one thing is very often not needed. Has trouble shining in any encounter unless the rest of the party is weak in that situation and the encounter matches their strengths. DMs may have to work to avoid the player feeling that their character is worthless unless the entire party is Tier 4 and below. Characters in this tier will often feel like one trick ponies if they do well, or just feel like they have no tricks at all if they build the class poorly.

While a proponent of the Giacomo monk believes he can be built to in such a way as to 'keep up' with a wizard at mid-high levels.

("Giacomo" is a user around here, or rather was, I believe, who championed this concept)

[T.G. Oskar]

Its a belief that monks are better than what the community as a whole, particularly our most capable optimizers and respected guide-makers, have come to accept.

[...] a proponent of the Giacomo monk believes he can be built to in such a way as to 'keep up' with a wizard at mid-high levels.

Actually, wasn't the gist of the concept behind the Giamonk was that a monk could work appropriately given lots of cross-class ranks in UMD and partially-charged wands, effectively making a Wizard without the levels? It's still the gist of what it represented, hopefully a fair representation of what it was. Just...don't discuss any further.

Regarding obscure options:
The Monk combat styles from UA. They alter your choice of feats, and some can be pretty decent (even though the others suck). Passive Way helps with a tripper build (good luck finding a proper reach weapon, unless you burn a feat slot on EWP: Spiked Chain), Denying Stance helps only slightly on grapplers, Sleeping Tiger nets you Weapon Finesse at 1st level if you need to make your Dex work ASAP.
We all know the oversight of Monks being unproficient with unarmed strikes (depending on how RAW is enforced), but just another oversight is that they're proficient with crossbows. Both light and heavy. While crossbows aren't flurry-able, they do get something else to fight in range aside from shurikens. The need for good Dex in order to get high Reflex and AC might work with Crossbow Sniper (though you need to get Weapon Focus with light or heavy crossbows to make it work). A drow monk with Hand Crossbow Focus, Crossbow Sniper and Versatile Combatant could get some decent mileage out of hand crossbows, as well as a halfling monk with the skirmish substitution and Crossbow Sniper (using a light crossbow + Rapid Reload to skirmish using the monk's speed boost).
As already mentioned, Invisible Fist. It's one of the few excuses to go Monk 9, whcih officially makes it more than just a dip (though not enough to provide something good for the remaining 11 levels).
If Abundant Step was far more useful, Sun School would have been pretty good. Too bad shadow-pouncing left that in the dust...

[Gwendol]

Its a belief that monks are better than what the community as a whole, particularly our most capable optimizers and respected guide-makers, have come to accept.

The short version is that myself, Jaronk, and many others think that the Monk is a tier 5 class, which means:



While a proponent of the Giacomo monk believes he can be built to in such a way as to 'keep up' with a wizard at mid-high levels.

("Giacomo" is a user around here, or rather was, I believe, who championed this concept)

Count me out then: the monk is a horribly designed class. As hard to not make a failure out of as the druid or cleric is massively overwhelming.

[Demidos]

I dont know if I missed something, but giving him a persisted ring of mighty wallop (not greater) wouldn't seem to be too overpowered, even at low levels, as long as you know he wouldn't sell it (and thus get tons of money). Just my point of view.

[Daftendirekt]

I think I did a good job just yesterday at making a pretty good "monk". Granted, I was able to gestalt it:

Straight swordsage on one side.

Other side: barb 2 (spirit lion for pounce, wolf for improved trip), fighter 2 (feats and BAB, duh). Now that you have +4 BAB, go Warshaper (since you're a changeling, of course) 4. immunity to crit and fast heal are nice, but you're getting it for free +4 to Str AND Con, as well as a weapon size increase. Then, go Fist of the Forest. More unarmed progression, a 2nd "rage" type ability, uncanny dodge, free fist magicalness.

[Mummy king]

Come on then, give me a low level monk with an AC higher than 16 with 32 PB and not having horrible attack/damage/HP/skills.

Human Monk 1
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty
AC: 19 (+4 armour [from VoP], +2 Dex, +3 Wis)

[Edited for typo]

[Big Fau]

Actually, wasn't the gist of the concept behind the Giamonk was that a monk could work appropriately given lots of cross-class ranks in UMD and partially-charged wands, effectively making a Wizard without the levels? It's still the gist of what it represented, hopefully a fair representation of what it was. Just...don't discuss any further.

Regarding obscure options:
The Monk combat styles from UA. They alter your choice of feats, and some can be pretty decent (even though the others suck). Passive Way helps with a tripper build (good luck finding a proper reach weapon, unless you burn a feat slot on EWP: Spiked Chain), Denying Stance helps only slightly on grapplers, Sleeping Tiger nets you Weapon Finesse at 1st level if you need to make your Dex work ASAP.
We all know the oversight of Monks being unproficient with unarmed strikes (depending on how RAW is enforced), but just another oversight is that they're proficient with crossbows. Both light and heavy. While crossbows aren't flurry-able, they do get something else to fight in range aside from shurikens. The need for good Dex in order to get high Reflex and AC might work with Crossbow Sniper (though you need to get Weapon Focus with light or heavy crossbows to make it work). A drow monk with Hand Crossbow Focus, Crossbow Sniper and Versatile Combatant could get some decent mileage out of hand crossbows, as well as a halfling monk with the skirmish substitution and Crossbow Sniper (using a light crossbow + Rapid Reload to skirmish using the monk's speed boost).
As already mentioned, Invisible Fist. It's one of the few excuses to go Monk 9, whcih officially makes it more than just a dip (though not enough to provide something good for the remaining 11 levels).
If Abundant Step was far more useful, Sun School would have been pretty good. Too bad shadow-pouncing left that in the dust...

Actually, that was the BG Giacomo, who is assumed to be a fake by many of BG's board members.

The original Giacomo was dead-locked on Core-only Monks being capable caster killers, and that any non-Core supplement was inherently unbalanced.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think T.G. Oskar points about Giacomo and the extra options were separate points.

And I am curious why the BG thought the Giacomo there was a fake, I never really interacted with him here in Giantitp, so I can't see the difference, if you want you can tell me through PM though, to avoid de-railing this thread.

As for monk options, spell reflection (CMag) hasn't been mentioned and it is kinda interesting.

[Big Fau]

I think T.G. Oskar points about Giacomo and the extra options were separate points.

And I am curious why the BG thought the Giacomo there was a fake, I never really interacted with him here in Giantitp, so I can't see the difference, if you want you can tell me through PM though, to avoid de-railing this thread.

As for monk options, spell reflection (CMag) hasn't been mentioned and it is kinda interesting.

I just kept seeing people like Solo and JaronK calling him a fake. That's it.


Human Monk 1
Str: 14
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 16
Cha: 10

Feats: Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty
AC: 19 (+4 armour [from VoP], +2 Dex, +3 Wis)

The Sacred Vows should have bee flaws.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I see then.

[Mummy king]

As for monk options, spell reflection (CMag) hasn't been mentioned and it is kinda interesting. It's probably not possible under RAW, but I would allow a monk to combine spell reflection and deflect arrows (using deflect arrows to enforce a miss and spell reflection to target the caster).


The Sacred Vows should have bee flaws.
I don't tend to use flaws... and that still meets the AC requirement set by mongoose, and his attack/hp/damage aren't too bad for a 1st level character (not that I would expect a monk to go toe-to-toe with an enemy tank). With stunning fist, and taking touch of golden ice as a second level exalted bonus feat, max out tumble and focus on enemies likely to have low fort saves (casters, rogues) and it should be effective enough.

[Godskook]

I don't tend to use flaws... and that still meets the AC requirement set by mongoose, and his attack/hp/damage aren't too bad for a 1st level character (not that I would expect a monk to go toe-to-toe with an enemy tank). With stunning fist, and taking touch of golden ice as a second level exalted bonus feat, max out tumble and focus on enemies likely to have low fort saves (casters, rogues) and it should be effective enough.

Problem is, you're giving up magical items, many of which will be more valuable than the benefits of VoP, even on a monk, just to be effective in the first few levels. Not horrible if you're never going to see level 7, but I think it kinda proves Mongoose's overall point, that monks spread their ability scores too thin to be useful in the things he's supposed to be doing.

[Mummy king]

Problem is, you're giving up magical items, many of which will be more valuable than the benefits of VoP, even on a monk, just to be effective in the first few levels. Not horrible if you're never going to see level 7, but I think it kinda proves Mongoose's overall point, that monks spread their ability scores too thin to be useful in the things he's supposed to be doing.
My opinion of the monk is that it is suitable for a very narrow selection of roles; it gets shoehorned into skillmonkey territory, which it is an appalling class for.
I like VoP for monks, both flavour and mechanics wise although it seems terrible for basically any other class.
A VoP monk as the fifth member of your party could be an ideal caster-killer, basically specialise in taking out threats as he can maneuver around enemy tanks with tumble, close with fast movement, stunning fist is good against casters as would be touch of golden ice.
Maybe replace flurry of blows with devastating strike (PHB II) and allow him to use it as a standard action?

My brother went with goliath monk 11/fighter2/reaping mauler 5 recently, again he was an ideal caster killer (taken down by a monstrosity of a t-rex which killed every melee character in the party).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Maybe replace flurry of blows with devastating strike (PHB II) and allow him to use it as a standard action?

And now it's not a monk, the tier 6 class created by WotC. Now it's something that can use both its fast movement and special attacks in the same round. One monk fix I've seen allowed FoB or Devastating Strike to be used as a standard action. The other just did away with it entirely.

VoP monk is way worse as a 5th wheel than a druid or buffer/dispeller. A warblade or crusader are better 5th wheels with White Raven.

[Mummy king]

And now it's not a monk, the tier 6 class created by WotC. Now it's something that can use both its fast movement and special attacks in the same round. One monk fix I've seen allowed FoB or Devastating Strike to be used as a standard action. The other just did away with it entirely.
Not sure what the problem is, we've agreed that the monk as written is not too good. Does fast movement+special attack in the same round make it too powerful? I don't think so.


VoP monk is way worse as a 5th wheel than a druid or buffer/dispeller. A warblade or crusader are better 5th wheels with White Raven.
Of course, but, kid wants to play a monk.

[NNescio]

My opinion of the monk is that it is suitable for a very narrow selection of roles; it gets shoehorned into skillmonkey territory, which it is an appalling class for.
I like VoP for monks, both flavour and mechanics wise although it seems terrible for basically any other class.
A VoP monk as the fifth member of your party could be an ideal caster-killer, basically specialise in taking out threats as he can maneuver around enemy tanks with tumble, close with fast movement, stunning fist is good against casters as would be touch of golden ice.
Maybe replace flurry of blows with devastating strike (PHB II) and allow him to use it as a standard action?

"Monk" and "caster killer" do not belong in the same sentence.



My brother went with goliath monk 11/fighter2/reaping mauler 5 recently, again he was an ideal caster killer (taken down by a monstrosity of a t-rex which killed every melee character in the party).

Level 10 Wizard with Fly. Windwall and Invisibility optional. Or a Level 5 Wizard, but that requires some experience to use.

[Mummy king]

"Monk" and "caster killer" do not belong in the same sentence. You're doing either monk or caster wrong...


Level 10 Wizard with Fly. Windwall and Invisibility optional. Or a Level 5 Wizard, but that requires some experience to use. Goggles of true seeing and an absolute beast of a jump check. In the context of the game, we would send this guy to take out the caster while we dealt with melee or ranged threats, and it worked fine.

[NNescio]

You're doing either monk or caster wrong...

Goggles of true seeing and an absolute beast of a jump check. In the context of the game, we would send this guy to take out the caster while we dealt with melee or ranged threats, and it worked fine.

Where exactly do you get a pair of Goggles of True Seeing? Custom Magic Item?

And good luck trying to meet a DC 120 jump check. 30 feet is a rather modest height for a ranged flying opponent who doesn't need to come down for fly-by attacks.

[Tael]

Give him the pathfinder monk, make up a feat that gives pounce, and point him towards some of the better monk feats (there are some good martial arts style feats in Ultimate Combat).

I don't generally love pathfinder, but it does make the monk better.

[Mummy king]

Where exactly do you get a pair of Goggles of True Seeing? Custom Magic Item?

And good luck trying to meet a DC 120 jump check. 30 feet is a rather modest height for a ranged flying opponent who doesn't need to come down for fly-by attacks.

And remember, the Wizard is Level 10, far from an equal CR threat.
Yeah we found them on some bad guys so, DM found them somewhere or made them up.
I don't think monk can solo wizard 1 on 1, but having the monk neutralise/ seperate enemy casters from the rest of the party is a viable tactic in most situations with an enemy caster.

[Tael]

Yeah we found them on some bad guys so, DM found them somewhere or made them up.
I don't think monk can solo wizard 1 on 1, but having the monk neutralise/ seperate enemy casters from the rest of the party is a viable tactic in most situations with an enemy caster.

YMMV, but in my group if the monk could touch the wizard, the wizard wasn't a threat to begin with.

[Mummy king]

YMMV, but in my group if the monk could touch the wizard, the wizard wasn't a threat to begin with.

I think the way casters are used is probably one of the biggest differences in DM style which I have come across =P