MoI's Spinemeld Warrior?

[Essence_of_War]

Has anybody had any success building around this PrC?

It doesn't look like a trap to me, and although it's meldshaping progression is a little...slow...I liked that it gave access to Rend with full BAB.

It looks like it could play well with a grappler chassis, maybe use levels in totemist to pick up Girallon Arms + Kraken Mantle? Possibly an incarnate dip or a shape soulmeld feat expenditure to get bluesteel bracers for extra melee damage?

The only real problem I'm seeing is that Twin Spine Fighting class feature forces the spines to behave like two light weapons rather than like primary natural weapons, so you lose a lot of your contribution from strength. If a DM is receptive, would it be a good idea to suggest that as a change?

[Greenish]

It focuses on TWF with no source of extra damage, and it's meldshaping progress is almost nonexistent.

You could use it, I guess, but there's really not much point to do so.

[Keld Denar]

Another issue is that Natural Weapons don't blend well with grappling without 8 levels of Black Blood Cultist. While grappling, you loose the primary benefits of natural weapons (you can make as many attacks as you have weapons) while still suffering their restrictions (+BAB determines number of grapple actions, but you can only attack with a natural weapon once).

I blame the grappling rules. You should too.

[Essence_of_War]

I blame the grappling rules. You should too.


Heh heh :smallamused:

So, what I'm hearing is "nope, actually a trap".

[Big Fau]

Heh heh :smallamused:

So, what I'm hearing is "nope, actually a trap".

Sinfire has stated several times that he prefers Spinemeld Warrior to Soulborn, but then again he'd say nearly anything is better than the Soulborn.

[Keld Denar]

Not playing is better than playing a Soulborn, so that comment carries less water than a sieve.

[Person_Man]

Spinemeld Warrior is garbage. Specifically:


It only grants 2 additional soulmelds. By comparison, over the same number of levels the Incarnate, Totemist, and several PrC will grant 3.
It only grants 7 points of essentia. By comparison, over the same number of levels the Incarnate, Totemist, and several PrC will grant 8-10.
Your select soulmelds off of the Soulborn list, which is nifty, but is still the weakest list around.
Your meldshaper level (which is important for a few soulmelds and resisting Dispel Magic) is equal to your prestige class level, and thus will be 4-5 levels lower then most other Incarnum builds.
It only grants 1 additional chakra bind. By comparison, over the same number of levels the Incarnate, Totemist, and several PrC will grant 3.
It only opens 1 chakra slot, Arms, at ECL 12. The Incarnate and Totemist and Ironsoul Forgemaster open Arms and Brow and Shoulders at ECL 9, and Necrocarnate opens them at ECL 10. Taking levels of Spinemeld Warrior also essentially prevents you from getting access to the Brow, Shoulders, Waist, Throat, Heart, and Soul slots unless you invest feats in them. (And for Heart and Soul, you'd have to wait for Epic feats).
The Spinemeld rules are confusing. Are they natural weapons, manufactured weapons, or both? What exactly is my attack routine?
The class abilities are garbage, and in fact are worse then the class abilities you would gain by just being a strait Incarnate or Totemist.
You have full BAB, but Spinemelds count as light weapons, so no Power Attack.


A simple fix would be to provide 8/10 meldshaper/esentia/soulmeld/chakra bind/chakra slot progression. Allow Spinemelds to count as light weapons for TWF penalties but one handed weapons for Power Attack. Throw in a Kensai like enchantment for your Spinemelds. And you're set.

[Essence_of_War]

A simple fix would be to provide 8/10 meldshaper/esentia/soulmeld/chakra bind/chakra slot progression. Allow Spinemelds to count as light weapons for TWF penalties but one handed weapons for Power Attack. Throw in a Kensai like enchantment for your Spinemelds. And you're set.

If it comes to this, I think I'd rather just build around an Ironsoul Forgemaster or Totem Rager :smallredface:

[Psyren]

I know Soulborn is terrible and all, but does it beat Fighter and Soulknife? I know that's not much of a power standard, but there are some pretty low-op games out there.

[Jjeinn-tae]

I know Soulborn is terrible and all, but does it beat Fighter and Soulknife? I know that's not much of a power standard, but there are some pretty low-op games out there.

I'm rather fond of Soulborn... But really their only useful in combat melds... Do not exist, you really need to take a feat to get anything worthwhile anywhere...

Unless you deal with a lot of marbles I guess... They don't even get the flying shoes I don't think...

Man, I need to play one again. :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

I know Soulborn is terrible and all, but does it beat Fighter and Soulknife?Soulknife, maybe, fighter, no. Fighter using his normal feats on meldshaping would be a better meldshaper than soulborn, and still have bunches of bonus feats.

[TroubleBrewing]

Soulknife, maybe, fighter, no. Fighter using his normal feats on meldshaping would be a better meldshaper than soulborn, and still have bunches of bonus feats.

So it hovers neatly in Tier 5, which is about where I'd put it. In a game with a Monk, Healer, and a totally overpowered Rogue (that player is totally "that guy", always optimizing and picking races that are such BS. [I mean, seriously, Todd? Gnome Rogue AGAIN? How much power do you NEED to have?]), a Soulborn fits great.

[Lans]

I know Soulborn is terrible and all, but does it beat Fighter and Soulknife? I know that's not much of a power standard, but there are some pretty low-op games out there.

It's on par with those, though it gets a bad start it curves up.


Soulknife, maybe, fighter, no. Fighter using his normal feats on meldshaping would be a better meldshaper than soulborn, and still have bunches of bonus feats.

Starting out yes, but at about 8th level the soulborn pulls ahead of a non human, mostly due to the fighter not having essentia.

[Person_Man]

I know Soulborn is terrible and all, but does it beat Fighter and Soulknife? I know that's not much of a power standard, but there are some pretty low-op games out there.

It's sorta like asking who the world's tallest midget is. But IMO, the Soulborn is worse then the Fighter or Soulknife for the vast majority of their careers. You could make an argument that at high levels the Soulborn eventually gets enough soulmelds/essentia/chakra binds to catch up, but only if the Fighter and Soulknife don't bother to use alternate class features or intelligent feat choices.

As a side note, I combined the Soulborn and Soulknife into a single base class (the War Soul (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=156441)), and together it's Tier 3ish.

[TroubleBrewing]

Starting out yes, but at about 8th level the soulborn pulls ahead of a non human, mostly due to the fighter not having essentia.

Nice addition. I was about to be all "NUH UH, BE AN AZURIN FIGHTER, DUH", but then... Damn. Just damn.

EDIT: Person Man: Does this class do an effective Jedi, as the picture would suggest? I'm attempting to build a sort of Linear-guild-ish party to be the main antagonists in a D&D game I'm running, and I want them all to be Jedi-ish, mainly to prove to one of the players that yes, you can play D&D and be a Jedi.

[Essence_of_War]

Yeah, they really screwed the pooch on the Soulborn.

[TroubleBrewing]

Naw, it's just that Rogues and Fighters are so overpowered. Some of us would like to roleplay rather than rollplay all the time, if you catch my drift.

Commit to the bit commit to the bit commit to the bit

[Person_Man]

EDIT: Person Man: Does this class do an effective Jedi, as the picture would suggest? I'm attempting to build a sort of Linear-guild-ish party to be the main antagonists in a D&D game I'm running, and I want them all to be Jedi-ish, mainly to prove to one of the players that yes, you can play D&D and be a Jedi.

Yes, I would think so. Though it has a lot of non-Jedi-ish abilities. Also, if you just want a Jedi for D&D, there are probably dozens of homebrew specifically for that purpose. I have a couple of my own I could dig up.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm usually pretty reluctant to use homebrew material, but I'm running a PvP all-Jedi game for a friend's birthday, and this is right up his alley. I'll dig around the homebrew section for others, any suggestions on good ones? Homebrew can be... spotty when it comes to balance.

[Psyren]

I'm usually pretty reluctant to use homebrew material, but I'm running a PvP all-Jedi game for a friend's birthday, and this is right up his alley. I'll dig around the homebrew section for others, any suggestions on good ones? Homebrew can be... spotty when it comes to balance.

Pathfinder Soulknife makes a decent Jedi. Soulbound Weapon Psywar nails it.

[Essence_of_War]

Your new avatar is fantastic btw. :smallbiggrin:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Nice addition. I was about to be all "NUH UH, BE AN AZURIN FIGHTER, DUH", but then... Damn. Just damn.

EDIT: Person Man: Does this class do an effective Jedi, as the picture would suggest? I'm attempting to build a sort of Linear-guild-ish party to be the main antagonists in a D&D game I'm running, and I want them all to be Jedi-ish, mainly to prove to one of the players that yes, you can play D&D and be a Jedi.

Psy-War is a *MUCH* better Jedi class. They can do everything a Jedi can without having to leave their own little list of powers known.

Swordsage is also very jedi-ish. For that matter, Incarnate can look a lot like a Jedi, with the right binds.

Having said that, Soulborn do get a couple of things that are vaguely jedi-like...

Crystal Helm: bind it for Force damage.

Impulse Boots: Go ahead, TRY hitting him for area-effect stuff.

Lucky Dice: Trust in the Force

Bluesteel Bracers: Yes, I *AM* going first. Also, more damage per swing.

Silvertongue Mask: Jedi mind Trick

Wind Cloak: Deflect Projectiles? Check.

Necrocarnum [anything]: I find your lack of faith... disturbing.

Mind you, an Incarnate does all these melds earlier, better, with more essentia to play around with... but a soulborn *CAN* somewhat mimic some of the abilities of the Jedi.

[Psyren]

I know P_M's War Soul was built on the Soulblade (the first true attempt to make a Soulborn/Soulknife hybrid, IIRC - though I forget by who) but I still prefer and use the latter name :smalltongue:


Your new avatar is fantastic btw. :smallbiggrin:

Thank you, though the true appreciation goes to the one named in my sig :smallsmile: