Elven Class/Prestige Class Help (Alternatively: Bladesinger Build Help)

[Bladesinger]

Alright. So two of my friends and I are going to play elf brothers in the next game that we play together. Each of us is playing (or will eventually play) a distinctly elven class or prestige class. One of my friends is playing a Duskblade, and the other is a Warblade who plans on eventually going into Eternal Blade (we're starting at level 3). I had originally planned on being a Bladesinger, but our low-level starting point, along with the potential power of my party members, has me rethinking things. I absolutely love the flavor of the Bladesinger--it's hands-down one of my all-time favorite prestige classes (in case you guys couldn't figure that out from my username). But my original build of Swashbuckler3/Wizard4/BladesingerX is looking a bit lack-luster compared to the sheer damage potential of the Duskblade and the combat versatility of the Eternal Blade. I thought about taking the armor proficiency feats and 1-level dipping into Spellsword for the ability to ignore 10% arcane spell failure, but I don't know if that's worth it, especially when I can just eventually spend money to get armor for which that isn't a problem, anyway.

So my first question is: Do you guys think I'll fall behind the others? At first glance, it would seem that the combination of a tier-1 and tier-5 class would naturally balance at tier 3 (and thus be on even ground with the other two players). However, I'm not quite sure that things'll work out that way, especially since I get poor prestige class features and I'll only cast as a level 6 Wizard at level 11, when the Warblade will start into Eternal Blade and the Duskblade will be... Well, a Duskblade. Is there perhaps something I should do with my Wizard levels, such as specialization in a specific school (probably Transmutation)? Is there another build I should consider to get the best results? (I should mention here that my planned alignment for this character is Neutral/Lawful Good, so that rules out that popular Assassin build I see so much, among other things.) Should I consider taking a few Elf Paragon levels? What would you recommend?

My second request is: Does anybody have any ideas/suggestions for another distinctly elven class or prestige class that I could do? While I do love the Bladesinger's flavor, I'm well aware that it's a sub-par prestige class, and I'm pretty much open to anything at this point (as long as it's not another Duskblade or Eternal Blade). It doesn't even have to be a gish or melee class--anything will do, as long as it's exclusive or implied to be exclusive to elves. Basically, I don't want to just play a cleric with the Elf domain. I have the rolls (17,16,16,15,12,10) to back pretty much anything up. I'll say that I've already looked at the Swiftblade prestige class, but I think I'd rather play a Bladesinger over a Swiftblade, if it came down to those two choices. I'm eager for other suggestions, though.

Thanks in advance, guys. You all rock.

[Amphetryon]

What sourcebooks do you have available? :smallsmile:

[poignant123]

Well, elf clerics get access to the Seeker of the Misty Isle PrC from Complete Divine, which is a 8/10 casting class. You don't need the Elf domain, but you need survival as a class skill to enter it as early as possible (so Aerini Focus or Apprentice (Woodsman)). Basically, Archer Cleric, so Zen Archery needs to be in there to reduce MAD.

Travel Domain at the first level, and a bunch of archery related abilites. It's not overwhelmingly good but it seems decent enough to me.

[Bladesinger]

What sourcebooks do you have available? :smallsmile:

Sorry. All sources are available, to my knowledge.

Thanks for the input, poignant123.

[Jude_H]

The least bad Bladesingers are typically based off a casting class with a self-contained 10-level spell list.

Carmendine Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 5/Bladesinger 10, for instance, isn't going to be overwhelming, but sneak attack+craven+Insightful Strike can supplement its one-handed damage, UMD can partially fill in for its lacking spell list, and there will be lots of intelligence synergy.

TBH, the most workable build that does everything the Bladesinger does is probably Factotum 20.

If you're just looking for an elf-flavored Fighter/wizard, you could probably just work Elf Paragon and Sub levels into a more traditional build, like
Elf Paragon 1/Wizard 1/EP 2/Crusader 1/Wiz 1/JPM 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Incantatrix 4

With your party composition, though, and your affinity for the Bladesinger concept, my recommendation would be Bard. Maybe even straight-classed.

[Draz74]

The least bad Bladesingers are typically based off a casting class with a self-contained 10-level spell list.

Carmendine Monk 2/Swashbuckler 3/Assassin 5/Bladesinger 10, for instance, isn't going to be overwhelming, but sneak attack+craven+Insightful Strike can supplement its one-handed damage, UMD can partially fill in for its lacking spell list, and there will be lots of intelligence synergy.

This is true; Assassin (or Avenger) spellcasting progression is the best way to make use of the actual Bladesinger PrC. Normal Wizard/Bladesingers are awful.

I like the above build, except I'm not sure how much value it's really getting out of Monk. Monk could, of course, be replaced by Rogue or Factotum (or one of each), with everything else remaining the same. Be sure to comb the Spell Compendium for good Assassin-list options.

Another option for a better Elven-flavored Gish is Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) (WotC website). That PrC could practically be named "Bladesinger" if you just gave it more prerequisites (Elf and a couple ranks of Perform). This is what I'd actually recommend to you, especially if you don't want to be Evil. You can even base it on a Bard / Sublime Chord chassis, for more musical flavor.

If your DM allows homebrew at all, you should definitely point the Duskblade player in the direction of Shinken's Racial (Elf) Substitution Levels (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=179198) that turn a Duskblade into a Bladesinger, no multiclassing necessary. One of the more elegant homebrew projects I've seen.


Well, elf clerics get access to the Seeker of the Misty Isle PrC from Complete Divine, which is a 8/10 casting class. You don't need the Elf domain, but you need survival as a class skill to enter it as early as possible (so Aerini Focus or Apprentice (Woodsman)). Basically, Archer Cleric, so Zen Archery needs to be in there to reduce MAD.

Travel Domain at the first level, and a bunch of archery related abilites. It's not overwhelmingly good but it seems decent enough to me.

This is a fun idea; I'll just point out that there's an easy feat-free way to get Survival as a Cleric skill, namely taking the Travel Domain (without swapping it out for the Travel Devotion feat).

[Cieyrin]

Champion of Corellon Larethian may be right up your alley if you're looking to be more martial and is part of the trinity of stat to damage with Swashbuckler. Wildrunner is fun for stacking rage-like effects. Arcane Heirophant can be an interesting theurge build. There's also Wizard substitution levels for Elves that may be of interest. Basically, raid Races of the Wild and you'll find something suitably Elven.

Mixing Loremaster and Olin Gissir (Lost Empires of Faerun) can make for a pretty nice Elven caster on top of the Wizard substitution levels.

[Psyren]

Well, elf clerics get access to the Seeker of the Misty Isle PrC from Complete Divine, which is a 8/10 casting class.

Actually, it is 10/10 casting by RAW - text trumps table.

Also, if you want Survival, it's hard to beat Ruathar from RotW - one of the easiest PrCs to qualify for in the entire game, it grants you a bunch of woodsy skills, skillpoints to burn, fullcasting, boosts your already long lifespan, and free goodies courtesy of treehugger-mart.

[DiBastet]

One thing of note: There is a very good Bladesinger homebrew here in the gitp, it uses ToB and all. It's not overpower, but is in line with near-end-of-3.5 material, instead the more lackluster idea of early 3.5.

Here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109516

If your dm allows it, then there it is.

[Jude_H]

One option that may or may not be available is Pathfinder's Magus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus). One of the traditional dex-based Magus builds (using Dervish Dance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat)) is basically identical to the CW Bladesinger in concept, but with a workable execution. It is Int/Dex focused, limited to 1-handed fighting, it wears armor and learns to cast spells while fighting in melee. The difference is that the Magus achieves its concept at a low level, and doesn't hobble itself with a handful of weak prerequisite feats, a total lack of damage options and a CL too low to stand up to SR or dispels.

It should translate pretty directly into 3.5, but it may overlap with the Duskblade. Overall, the Magus is probably going to have more numerous and more powerful options than the DB, but the DB will typically do more damage with its full BA, two-handed PA and accelerated blasting spell list.

[cfalcon]

I add that a Magus is sort of desiring to use the scimitar instead of the more traditional longsword, and that melee crits can proc spells- a Magus can really deliver some serious burst rounds a couple times a day.

[Coidzor]

Generally, a gish wants to snag as many +1CL/+1BAB levels (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871278/1_BAB_and_1_Caster_Level?pg=1)as possible to ward against losing iteratives and help keep the casting lag they have from theurging with beatstick from getting worse.


Spellsword 1 (lowers ASF, which is of minor concern unless you're going with dastana and/or chahar-aina)

Dragonslayer 1 (gives any weapon proficiencies you were missing out on and aura of courage to your mates)

Abjurant Champion 1-5 (One of those classes you just wish was longer, any armor you wear is now merely for the armor properties, pretty much THE gish PrC)

CW Bladesinger 1 (As you probably already know, awful pre-reqs for lackluster benefits)

Thrall of Eltab/Orcus/Demogorgon 1 (Causes you to lose luminous armor access, the best thing for Abjurant Champion's AC increasing class feature, so not really that tasty)

[Cieyrin]

Abjurant Champion 1-5 (One of those classes you just wish was longer, any armor you wear is now merely for the armor properties, pretty much THE gish PrC)

Abjurant Champion is the PrC you take so you have an excuse to go everywhere shirtless and wearing only a (padded armor) loincloth. :smallcool:

[Coidzor]

Abjurant Champion is the PrC you take so you have an excuse to go everywhere shirtless and wearing only a (padded armor) loincloth. :smallcool:

Ah, yes, Ysgardian Heart armor....

Dangit. Now you've got me converting that into the BoEF version. :smalleek:

Well, adventurers do like to wear leather and carry lots of rope, I suppose...

[Bladesinger]

Thanks for the help, all. I'm currently kicking the idea of a Champion of Corellon Larethian around. Any ideas on a build?

Keep the ideas coming, folks. I appreciate all of them.

[skycycle blues]

Paladin 2/Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 3

Pick up elven thin blade proficiency and stab with Str+Int+Dex.

And you lay on hands as your champion level + twice your paladin level, unless I'm misunderstanding something.

[Amphetryon]

Paladin 2/Fighter 2/ Swashbuckler 3

Pick up elven thin bladecourtblade proficiency and stab with Str+Int+Dex.

And you lay on hands as your champion level + twice your paladin level, unless I'm misunderstanding something.
There, I fixed it. :smallwink:

I prefer Swashbuckler 3/Warblade 5; it's a slightly delayed entry but gets better goodies with Maneuvers/Stances, and much better INT synergy. It's one thing to be able to add 3 stats to damage; it's another to need 5 stats to function.

[skycycle blues]

There, I fixed it. :smallwink:

I prefer Swashbuckler 3/Warblade 5; it's a slightly delayed entry but gets better goodies with Maneuvers/Stances, and much better INT synergy. It's one thing to be able to add 3 stats to damage; it's another to need 5 stats to function.

Wow. Did not realize that Elven Courtblade counts for weapon finesse.

But his stats are 17,16,16,15,12,10, so I think he's fine with the slightly MAD build. And he did say that he doesn't really want to be Warblade, as that's what the brother elf character is doing.

I've never actually played a warblade, but the INT based class abilities seem very underwhelming to me. Am I wrong there?

[Amphetryon]

Wow. Did not realize that Elven Courtblade counts for weapon finesse.

But his stats are 17,16,16,15,12,10, so I think he's fine with the slightly MAD build. And he did say that he doesn't really want to be Warblade, as that's what the brother elf character is doing.

I've never actually played a warblade, but the INT based class abilities seem very underwhelming to me. Am I wrong there?
Since Courtblade has a high crit range anyway, getting a bonus to confirm on them is a decent investment - especially when you don't need to spend a feat on it. INT to REF is a solid low-level bonus that beats the feat Lightning Reflexes easily, especially for free. Couple it with the 1st level maneuver that lets you use Concentration for WILL saves, and it's better than a Paladin's Divine Grace, without needing to suck up two levels of Paladin and the baggage the Code can bring. Uncanny Dodge is gravy here. The Warblade's recovery method is (arguably) the most intuitive in the ToB, and you get access to White Raven and Iron Heart, two of the stronger options, to complement the INT-friendly Diamond Mind.

[herrhauptmann]

it's better than a Paladin's Divine Grace, without needing to suck up two levels of Paladin and the baggage the Code can bring.
There's the alternate paladins, freedom, tyranny, and slaughter.
I think you could even alter the prestige paladin to be prestige paladin of freedom/slaughter/tyranny. But that's not really appropriate to the help needed, since it only advances divine casting on odd levels and you still need 2 levels for divine grace.


[LIST]
Dragonslayer 1 (gives any weapon proficiencies you were missing out on and aura of courage to your mates)


Which book is Dragonslayer in? All I can think of is Vassal of Bahamat from BoED.

[Jarveiyan]

Draconomicon is where the dragonslayer PrC is.

[B33rm4n]

I've always enjoyed the Paladin3 warblade~ filler method of going into CoCL
Swashbuckler is a cool idea but depending on how long you ride out CoCL you're going to have +6 max dex in Mithral full plate and full movement speed, and wearing anything other than light armor turns off insightful strike (and most of the champions core abilities rely on wearing medium or heavy armor). Unless i'm missing something Swashbuckler isn't worth taking for Champ.

[JadePhoenix]

I like the Races of Faerun Bladesinger.

[Rhaegar14]

If Pathfinder material is allowed or considered, the PF Arcane Archer actually has a casting progression and isn't as terrible as the original 3.5 version:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/core-rulebook/arcane-archer

[eggs]

I imagine this guy started playing his character 6 months ago, whatever it was.

[CGforever!]

OP, I feel inclined to mention that, as a fellow elf/bladesinger loving person, that the swiftblade is the best elf warrior/wizard class that I am aware of, both flavor-wise and crunch-wise.

My advice, both mechanically and as a fellow player, is to just play a swiftblade and call it a bladesinger. It pretty much is anyway.

[Yuukale]

since we're on the matter, I'd really like to know more about champion of corellon builds. I find it really flavorful (ok, I find anything 'elven' quite flavorful).

As for the swiftblade, isn't the loss of 4caster levels too much?

[eggs]

since we're on the matter, I'd really like to know more about champion of corellon builds. I find it really flavorful (ok, I find anything 'elven' quite flavorful).
I'd probably go with:
Warblade 7/Fighter 1/Champion of Correlon Larethian 2/Eternal Blade 10, two-handing a Courtblade.

It would get the CoCL's defining ability (as well as a hodgepodge of arbitrary ability-to-damage abilities) and a thorough slathering of elfness, while maintaining basic melee competence.

As for the swiftblade, isn't the loss of 4caster levels too much?
It hurts primary casters. A lot.

But its abilities are strong enough that even if it can't match the versatility and potency of a straight caster, it can bludgeon its way into the same ball game (in combat scenarios, its initiative boosts and action economy keep it in the same game as casters; outside combat scenarios, level 8 spells are still strong enough to deal with most obstacles).

It can also apply to classes like Suel Arcanamachs and Tome & Blood Bladesingers, where the classes get to finish their normal casting progressions, as well as picking up the Swiftblade's powerful abilities.

Anyway, not everything needs level 9 spells. I've heard Crusaders, Binders and Psychic Warriors aren't unplayably gimped in certain groups.

[Yuukale]

is the Corellon's Blessing(CoCL-2) or the Corellon's Wrath(CoCL-8) worth optimizing or even getting any attention?

[eggs]

is the Corellon's Blessing(CoCL-2) or the Corellon's Wrath(CoCL-8) worth optimizing or even getting any attention?
Not really.
Corellon's Blessing is, at its highest point for its most dedicated user, worth about half of a Heal spell. And while Corellon's Wrath isn't bad, it comes on the tail end of three nearly-dead levels' investment.

That said, it would be really easy to fix the class. Just add the Maneuver progression of a Ruby Knight Vindicator and give it a few fitting disciplines available (probably Tiger Claw and White Raven or appropriate homebrew), and the class would no longer punish players who focus on its weird quirky abilities.

As it is, it's a lot like just playing a Paladin, but without the horse, versatility in class features (ie. spells) or useful ACFs.

[Roland St. Jude]

I imagine this guy started playing his character 6 months ago, whatever it was.

Sheriff: Indeed. Please don't do thread necromancy, folks.