Shield bash: Viable?

[Feytalist]

I've never even really thought at all about shield bash, until a friend recently mentioned it in a game. I always imagined it to have a kind of stupid execution, and far too much trouble that it's worth. I don't even really know much about it, except it needs a whole gaggle of feats to even be practical. I know there's a few in PHB2 that allows you to trip after a successful bash, or daze your opponent, and even one that allows you to use it as a thrown weapon for some unfathomable reason (wait, I just thought of something: a shield-throwing Bloodstorm Blade? Discus yeah), but other than that, is it really worth it?

So, feats, tips, tricks, tactics on how to make shield bash viable? If at all?

[Talesin]

You'll want agile shield fighter, which does have imp shield bash and shield specialisation as prereqs, but it basically does what two weapon fighting does for shield bashing but you can only use a shield.

This is assuming you're shield bashing as part of an attack with another weapon of course. You could just shield bash with a shield and not use another weapon to not take all the TWF minuses.

I would look up Person Man's guide to shields, which you can find Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630).

[NNescio]

I've never even really thought at all about shield bash, until a friend recently mentioned it in a game. I always imagined it to have a kind of stupid execution, and far too much trouble that it's worth. I don't even really know much about it, except it needs a whole gaggle of feats to even be practical. I know there's a few in PHB2 that allows you to trip after a successful bash, or daze your opponent, and even one that allows you to use it as a thrown weapon for some unfathomable reason (wait, I just thought of something: a shield-throwing Bloodstorm Blade? Discus yeah), but other than that, is it really worth it?

So, feats, tips, tricks, tactics on how to make shield bash viable? If at all?

Person Man's Guide to Shields. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630)

Also, Bloodstorm Blade (and possibly Master Thrower) are great for Captain America builds.

[Feytalist]

Huh. Figures that there would have been a topic like that already.

Still, any thoughts still welcome. Build options? Sounds like such a build might work after all.

[Darrin]

Still, any thoughts still welcome. Build options? Sounds like such a build might work after all.

Race: Half-Giant.
1) Barbarian 1. Feat: Imp. Shield Bash. Spirit Lion Totem -> Pounce. Whirling Frenzy.
2) Fighter 1. Bonus: Shield Specialization. Swap Tower Shield -> Extreme Shield (RoS).
3) Fighter 2. Feat: Agile Shield Fighter. Dungeon Crasher 4d6.
4) Fighter 3.
5) Fighter 4. Bonus: Shield Charge.
6) Barbarian 2. Wolf Totem -> Improved Trip.
7) PsyWar 1. Bonus: Power Attack. Expansion.
8) PsyWar 2. Bonus: Improved Bull Rush.
9) PsyWar 3. Feat: Shock Trooper.
10) PsyWar 4. Bonus: Knockback. Hustle.
11) Fighter 5.
12) Fighter 6. Feat: Shield Slam. Dungeon Crasher 8d6.

* Equip two heavy spiked shields (make one Riverine to get half it's AC bonus as a deflection bonus).
* Expand to large size.
* Activate Whirling Frenzy.
* Charge + Pounce. 3 iterative bashes + 1 whirling bash +1 offhand bash.
* For each hit, target has to save (DC 10 + 1/2 CL + Str bonus) vs dazed for 1 round.
* Knockback gives each hit a free bull rush attempt, Shock Trooper lets you direct those bull rushes left/right as well as back, and if they hit an creature/object/wall they take 8d6 damage from Dungeon Crasher. If you bull rush one opponent into another, you get two free trip attacks against both opponents + possibly two free attacks via Improved Trip.
* Free trip attempt from Shield Charge.
* If trip succeeds, free attack via Improved Trip (also save vs. daze and bull rush/Dungeon Crasher, and yes tripped opponents can be bull rushed)

Finish off with a light garnish of Leap Attack, Travel Devotion, Practiced Manifester, Valorous shields, Warblade/Bloodstorm Blade (to do all this at range), or flight/Battle Jump according to taste.

[The Underlord]

Where is pounce from?

[Gullintanni]

Where is pounce from?

Barbarian 1. Spirit Lion Totem ACF in Complete Champion.


Race: Half-Giant.
* Equip two heavy Bashing spiked shields (make one Riverine to get half it's AC bonus as a deflection bonus).


Fixed. Since the Bashing property stacks with Shield Spikes.

[Flickerdart]

Where is pounce from?
Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian ACF (CChamp).

If you put spikes on your shield (and why wouldn't you?) then you can take Blood-Spiked Charger which lets you use twice your Strength modifier when charging with a spiked shield or armour. If you are a War Hulk, this converts into quite a bit of extra damage.

[Talya]

Person Man's Guide to Shields. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630)


I got a bit suspicious of this guide when he suggested the Agile Shield Fighter feat only works unarmed...which is rather the opposite of what the feat states.

[Feytalist]

I got a bit suspicious of this guide when he suggested the Agile Shield Fighter feat only works unarmed...which is rather the opposite of what the feat states.

Yeah, I was wondering about that myself. I'm AFB, but I'm definitely looking that one up when I get home.

[Talya]

Yeah, I was wondering about that myself. I'm AFB, but I'm definitely looking that one up when I get home.


There's a very nice internet resource, which I will not link to from here. Simply googling "Dandello Realms" should help, however. He's got some nice character creation index resources which help when looking up feats while AFB.

[Feytalist]

There's a very nice internet resource, which I will not link to from here. Simply googling "Dandello Realms" should help, however. He's got some nice character creation index resources which help when looking up feats while AFB.

Whoa. Can't believe I've never stumbled across that site. My bookmarks just grew by one link. :smallbiggrin: Thanks!

[Keld Denar]

<build>

Needs more Telekinetic Boomerang power from Races of the Wild...

[Haldir]

This is the problem with shield fighting in 3.5, it's got an built-in weakness because of the shield bashing penalties, which is covered by a feat, which then sets a tone of feat-intensiveness the likes of which is almost unparalleled. And it STILL manages to be terribly un-optimized.

[Gullintanni]

This is the problem with shield fighting in 3.5, it's got an built-in weakness because of the shield bashing penalties, which is covered by a feat, which then sets a tone of feat-intensiveness the likes of which is almost unparalleled. And it STILL manages to be terribly un-optimized.

Shield Fighters don't optimize for damage. They optimize for cool. :smallcool:

[Person_Man]

I got a bit suspicious of this guide when he suggested the Agile Shield Fighter feat only works unarmed...which is rather the opposite of what the feat states.

Sorry, I misread the feat. Fixed in the guide.

[Draz74]

Don't miss the Shield Block maneuver in ToB. If you can't spend a level in Crusader, you can pick it up with a feat or item.


I know there's a few in PHB2 that allows you to trip after a successful bash, or daze your opponent,
Actually, those two are in CWar, not PHB2. But PHB2 does have a lot of intriguing ones, most notably Agile Shield Fighter and Shield Ward.

Lords of Madness also has Parrying Shield, which is a lower-prereq, weaker version of Shield Ward.


and even one that allows you to use it as a thrown weapon for some unfathomable reason
As someone else implied in passing, this feat was undoubtedly written mostly for Captain America fans. It's also depicted in the Lord of the Rings movies (Aragorn vs. Lurtz), which often seems to have been enough reason for WotC to write up a feat. (Although personally I think that's one of the more ridiculous stunts in the movies.)

[tyckspoon]

This is the problem with shield fighting in 3.5, it's got an built-in weakness because of the shield bashing penalties, which is covered by a feat, which then sets a tone of feat-intensiveness the likes of which is almost unparalleled. And it STILL manages to be terribly un-optimized.

Actually, unlike sinking feats in TWF (I spent all my feats, and now I can attack more! ..um, yay?) shield-bashing does have some pretty cool returns for all those feats. Shield Charge+Shield Slam+Blood Spiked Charger is a pretty impressive opening blow.

[Keld Denar]

Also, Agile Shield Fighter is the equivalent of TWF + Oversized TWF, since you can Agile Shield Fighter with a heavy shield which is a 1handed offhand, rather than a light offhand. This allows you to 1-1 PA with both your main hand and your offhand, thus effectively returning a 2:1 return on PA (just spread across 2 weapons) on your first set of attacks. Unfortunately, there is no Improved or Greater Agile Shield Fighter, so you only ever get one offhand, and you don't get 2:1 returns on AoOs or Hastey attacks. Still, bonus for TWFing.

[Grendus]

Shield bashing can actually be very viable at early levels. Much like bards, splatbook designers repeatedly wrote out little boons here and there to make shields better. A half giant psywar with a +1 bashing spiked shield will bash for 3d6, 4d6 if he has expansion (and what self respecting psywar wouldn't). It's probably the only way to make sword and board respectable, combine that with a longsword and you can hit for a respectable amount of damage. You can tack on some enchantments on the spikes for even more magic goodness. Affordable by fifth level, give or take.

[Feytalist]

Thanks for all the input. Next time we have a low-level campaign, I know what I'm going as :smallbiggrin:


Shield Fighters don't optimize for damage. They optimize for cool. :smallcool:

Also, this.


Sorry, I misread the feat. Fixed in the guide.

Mkay. Guide was very helpful in any case.


Actually, those two are in CWar, not PHB2. But PHB2 does have a lot of intriguing ones, most notably Agile Shield Fighter and Shield Ward.

Yeah, I checked up on that again. Almost fixed it in OP, but own up to mistakes and all that. Seems I underestimated the worth of CW, heh.


As someone else implied in passing, this feat was undoubtedly written mostly for Captain America fans. It's also depicted in the Lord of the Rings movies (Aragorn vs. Lurtz), which often seems to have been enough reason for WotC to write up a feat. (Although personally I think that's one of the more ridiculous stunts in the movies.)

Kay, I want my shield-skating feat. Like, right now.

[Talya]

Kay, I want my shield-skating feat. Like, right now.

That should be more of a Balance skill trick.

[Greenish]

A half giant psywar with a +1 bashing spiked shield will bash for 3d6, 4d6 if he has expansion (and what self respecting psywar wouldn't). It's probably the only way to make sword and board respectable, combine that with a longsword and you can hit for a respectable amount of damage.If you're going for size shenanigans, bastard sword might be better due to how d10 scales up.

Or unarmed strikes, nothing says Tashalatora has to fight unarmed and unarmoured.

[Gullintanni]

If you're going for size shenanigans, bastard sword might be better due to how d10 scales up.


Pfeh. Quit getting Neon Tiger all over my Armored Armadillo. Real men fight with armor. :smalltongue:

[Greensleeves]

I like playing Warblade sword and board warriors. With Stormguard Warrior and some nice maneuvers you still have a fairly good character. Great for groups that only do optimize moderately or so.

[Feytalist]

So I reread CW during the weekend, and came upon this: the Combat Brute (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/tt/20050530a) tactical feat. Seems this and Shock Trooper has a nice synergy going, especially with heedless charge, which sets you up for momentum swing, and so on and so forth. Needs Improved Sunder, which is not great, but still. Plus if you charge with a shield bash, you get the benefit of Shield Charge and Shield Slam which, if I'm reading this correctly, can both be used at the same time. Also fun bull rushing tactics with directed bull rush/domino rush + advancing blows.

Only really good for low levels, but still. I've never really seen Combat Brute in action. Thoughts?