Can a Raging Archer Work?

[Amphetryon]

By "archer" I mean someone who wields a bow or, if he has to, a crossbow, not someone who's using Bloodstorm Blade or Hammer of Moradin to chuck melee weapons around.

Can we combine an ability to rage with an archer chassis into something that's a viable, credible threat in, say, a high Tier-4/low Tier-3 environment? I was remembering something called Power Shot to fuel this, but as far as I can tell on a quick google-hunt, that's an old GitP homebrew feat from Lord Iames Osari.

[GodGoblin]

The only way i see it meshing really is to increase strength and weild a high str composite bow, this does however mean you will be less effective at shooting when not raging though.

Maybe the Whirling frenzie variant could work, if I remember it ups dex so may work better.

[Fenryr]

For weapons I can only think of Bone Bow and Force Bow. Edit: it's actually Energy Bow.

For the Power Attack option, Peerless Archer from 3.0 (Silver Marches book). Or use Pathfinder ranged Power Attack (Deadly Aim?).

[Eldariel]

Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ) doesn't increase Dex. It grants you an extra attack though. It's very key in a volley build since it's basically a free extra attack outside Hastes and Rapid Shots.

My favorite non-magical Archer-build currently is Ranger 2/Barbarian 1/Fighter 1/Warblade 6/Eternal Blade 10. You can pick up Extra Rage too; Whirling Frenzy increases your efficiency immensely.

You use bow such as Bow of Winterymoon [MiC] or Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a), or just carry two bows (one for non-Rage Str and one for Rage str) to negate the issues with your Strength changing.


And Power Shot exists as a class feature of Peerless Archer [Silver Marches], however that's a 3.0 source. Still, it has no update so it's a perfectly reasonable option for a 3.5 Archer too. Power Shot comes on level 3. The only other source of Power Shot pre-Pathfinder is Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a).

[Telonius]

... you know, I never noticed that change before. In 3.0, there was an upper limit on the bonus your composite longbow could give, but that's gone in 3.5.

[Draz74]

The other Power Shot option you might be remembering is using Hank's Energy Bow, which WotC published stats for on their website (but on a graphic of a playing card, not text, which makes it harder to Google), based on an old D&D cartoon.

If you're NG, CG, or CN, the Bow of the Wintermoon relic (MIC) will auto-adjust when your Strength increases or decreases due to Rage.

If you take the Educated feat and neglect all your other skills, you could be just as good as anyone else at combining Knowledge Devotion with archery.

I'd say using those two options alone, along with standard Archery feats that anyone can take, would get you up to (low) Tier 4. Good enough that your party won't think you're useless, unless they're a bunch of Tier 1 types.

Of course there are more options if you're willing to take just a dip in Barbarian, then the bulk of your class levels in other classes. (Barbarian / Warblade / Eternal Blade, or Barbarian / Bard with Dragonfire Inspiration, are two examples of how you could get to Tier 3.)

EDIT: mostly ninja'd by Eldariel. :smallsigh:

[GodGoblin]

... you know, I never noticed that change before. In 3.0, there was an upper limit on the bonus your composite longbow could give, but that's gone in 3.5.

Could lead to a pretty funny Warhulk build?

[Cieyrin]

By "archer" I mean someone who wields a bow or, if he has to, a crossbow, not someone who's using Bloodstorm Blade or Hammer of Moradin to chuck melee weapons around.

Can we combine an ability to rage with an archer chassis into something that's a viable, credible threat in, say, a high Tier-4/low Tier-3 environment? I was remembering something called Power Shot to fuel this, but as far as I can tell on a quick google-hunt, that's an old GitP homebrew feat from Lord Iames Osari.

Whirling Frenzy Archer is definitely your friend in this instance, as that extra attack can help you get off a volley that's hard to ignore.

Power Shot generally either refers to Hank's Energy Bow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061227a) or to Silver March's Peerless Archer, which has Power Shot. Both can work well, though I'd rather spend money on the Energy Bow rather than throw levels if that's the only thing you'd want Peerless Archer for.

Bah, ninja'd by Eldariel, from whom I borrowed most of it from his Archery Guide, anyways...

[grarrrg]

Could lead to a pretty funny Warhulk build?

HULK CAREFULLY AIM, AND RELEASE ON EXHALE AT PUNY GOBLIN!

[dextercorvia]

Can Mountain Rage and Whirling Frenzy be combined? Turn large and shoot more arrows. Then you can Warhulk it up with a Skillful (energy) bow (or of the wintermoon).

[Cieyrin]

Can Mountain Rage and Whirling Frenzy be combined? Turn large and shoot more arrows. Then you can Warhulk it up with a Skillful (energy) bow (or of the wintermoon).

Rage variants don't typically mix, so most likely not. It's one type of Rage per customer.

[Frosty]

What about looking within the Pathfinder system? There's a lot of Rage Powers that are neat, and some fight even help with archery or be able to proc off of archery, and you might dip a few level of Fighter with the Archer archetype to help.

[Downysole]

I know of a druid who pretty much sucks with Thaas from Demonweb Pits, but likes the flavor, so he tries to use it. He's going to try something new this battle, since he has a little time to prepare. Bite of the Weretiger + turning into a Dire Ape + Evil O/S Bane + Chaotic O/S Bane for a level 11 Druid = +17/+12 to hit and d8+22+4d6 damage. Not too shabby against a CE OutSider who we know we're going to fight.

That being said, if you were a fighter or Ranger for most of those levels and only had a Bite of the Weretiger spell, you could be pretty sweet with a nice strength-adjusting bow. Toss Rage on and it's even better.

[Morithias]

There's a barbarian varient that boosts dex and con instead of str and con

"Implacable" barbarian. Dragon magazine 330 page 84.

[Cog]

There's an interesting divine feat out of Dragon Magazine #342, Frenzied Hunt: it's kind of a combination of Divine Power and Rage, giving you an enhancement-type Dex and Listen/Spot bonus, full BAB, and Rage-like action restrictions for a number of rounds based on your turning check, leaving you fatigued for a proportional number of minutes afterward. You're even supposed to favor ranged attacks while you're frenzied.

[Ravens_cry]

Build a high dexterity and constitution, moderate strength whirling frenzy barbarian with a composite bow, several in fact, could work.
The especially nice part is that the extra attack simply says "extra attack", it doesn't have to be a melee attack. The downside is enchantment costs. You can dump everything else pretty much.

[tacho101]

well, whirling aside,

Ferocity boosts both Str and Dex, to serve as a double whami, it does lack the extra attack, but extra accuracy is good.

with rapid shot and so on, cant you already make a few extra attacks? everything else, combine it with what you have read already

oh, and ferocity rage variant is from the cityscape complement {if your curious about the specifics}

[Qwertystop]

... you know, I never noticed that change before. In 3.0, there was an upper limit on the bonus your composite longbow could give, but that's gone in 3.5.

What do you mean? Any composite longbow (except for some magic ones that auto-adjust) has a certain maximum amount of STR bonus that can be added to damage with it, and cannot be used if you have less than that much bonus.

[tacho101]

the only thing is that you take a -2 on ranged attacks beyond 30 feet, forgot to mention that, but if its a high dex build and you do go for rage enhancements you'll still be fine.

[Eldariel]

What do you mean? Any composite longbow (except for some magic ones that auto-adjust) has a certain maximum amount of STR bonus that can be added to damage with it, and cannot be used if you have less than that much bonus.

He's saying the "Mighty" value was capped at +4 Str to damage in 3.0 but there's no cap (and even the term has changed) in 3.5 allowing for +13 Str bows (v. convenient).


the only thing is that you take a -2 on ranged attacks beyond 30 feet, forgot to mention that, but if its a high dex build and you do go for rage enhancements you'll still be fine.

This is from Ferocity Barbarian. It's not worth it. This cancels out the Dex-bonus making it like normal Barbarian Rage without Con-bonus. Whirling Frenzy is miles better. It is indeed very good.

But as Barbarian doesn't scale well offensively (forealz, Barb main class feature gets its first upgrade level 11; that's 10 levels with the same), it's usually only couple of Barbarian levels and then other classes that provide you with other bonuses to go with the Frenzy.

[Jacque]

Sword & Sorcery's Player's Guide to Fighters and Barbarians has a prestige class called Archer of the Steppes which focuses on raging as an archer.

[Runestar]

There's a barbarian varient that boosts dex and con instead of str and con

"Implacable" barbarian. Dragon magazine 330 page 84.

The cityscape web enhancement has a variant which boosts str/dex instead.

[Cieyrin]

But as Barbarian doesn't scale well offensively (forealz, Barb main class feature gets its first upgrade level 11; that's 10 levels with the same), it's usually only couple of Barbarian levels and then other classes that provide you with other bonuses to go with the Frenzy.

That's what the Ferocity weapon enhancement is for from OA. Steps rage up one step (Regular -> Greater -> Mighty). I don't know why more Barbarians don't have it, I guess OA is a bit obscure these days or people think Iaijutsu Focus is the only good thing to come out of the book for whatever reason...

[Morithias]

The cityscape web enhancement has a variant which boosts str/dex instead.

Personally if I was an archer I'd take the extra HP over the strength bonus, but I tend to play more defensively.

[hex0]

Take the Wildrunner PRC. Boost your Dex and bite anyone who gets too close to you!

[Dr.Epic]

Maybe the Whirling frenzie variant could work, if I remember it ups dex so may work better.

Nope. A whiling frenzy grants you a bonus to AC, a bonus to reflex, and a secondary attack (which may or may not be only a melee attack (I can't remember)).

[Amphetryon]

Nope. A whiling frenzy grants you a bonus to AC, a bonus to reflex, and a secondary attack (which may or may not be only a melee attack (I can't remember)).
Luckily, it's in the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy ).

[Eldariel]

That's what the Ferocity weapon enhancement is for from OA. Steps rage up one step (Regular -> Greater -> Mighty). I don't know why more Barbarians don't have it, I guess OA is a bit obscure these days or people think Iaijutsu Focus is the only good thing to come out of the book for whatever reason...

That doesn't, though, increase the value of extra Barbarian levels.

[SowZ]

Start with 16 Dex, 16 Str, 14 Con. One spare point- throw it in Int for flavor so you aren't a complete moron, maybe. Take Wood Elf. Stats are now 18 Dex, 18 Str, 12 Con. You int is 7 or so. Ah, well. You are fairly stupid but not handicapped. First level, whirling frenzy barbarian. Second level, take Targeteer with Vital Aim.

With a Masterwork Composite Longbow +6 you are more or less at your WBL. Maybe you got lucky and looted a chain shirt. Maybe you are stingy and went for some Masterwork arrows instead. I don't know.

You get +7 to hit or +5 for two attacks while raging. You also get +10 to damage at lvl. 2. Not too shabby. So, if both attacks hit while raging, you are dealing an average damage of 28-30. Or with one attack, 14-15. Your AC is 14 or 18 with a chain shirt. Your HP, (max first HD+ average HD,) is 19. Definitely playable.

[Cog]

Start with 16 Dex, 16 Str, 14 Con. One spare point- throw it in Int for flavor so you aren't a complete moron, maybe. Take Wood Elf. Stats are now 18 Dex, 18 Str, 12 Con. You int is 7 or so. Ah, well. You are fairly stupid but not handicapped. First level, whirling frenzy barbarian. Second level, take Targeteer with Vital Aim.

With a Masterwork Composite Longbow +6 you are more or less at your WBL. Maybe you got lucky and looted a chain shirt. Maybe you are stingy and went for some Masterwork arrows instead. I don't know.

You get +7 to hit or +5 for two attacks while raging. You also get +10 to damage at lvl. 2. Not too shabby. So, if both attacks hit while raging, you are dealing an average damage of 28-30. Or with one attack, 14-15. Your AC is 14 or 18 with a chain shirt. Your HP, (max first HD+ average HD,) is 19. Definitely playable.
Except that the weapon you spent basically all your money on can only be used for one encounter per day... maybe a little more, if you really stretch that rage out.

What's the advantage of Vital Aim when your Strength is better than or equal to your Dex?

[SowZ]

Except that the weapon you spent basically all your money on can only be used for one encounter per day... maybe a little more, if you really stretch that rage out.

What's the advantage of Vital Aim when your Strength is better than or equal to your Dex?

I think it is worded funny and can be interpreted multiple ways. Vital Aim says you add your Dex instead of Str to damage, (can't post exact text because I don't think it is SRD,) but you don't normally add your Str to attacks anyway and I don't think it specifically mention composite bows even though composite bows allow the Str mod. It probably means that, though, and a direct reading of the rules is most likely to say, 'ehh, they don't stack,' but some ways of reading would allow it so my build is kind of taking a liberal path around the rules and almost intentionally ignoring what is implied. Waiting till level four and stacking Elven Archery with the Barbarians Str. is a safer way to go.

And yeah, you would want a decent back up weapon. I was more going for the, 'Soonest way to get that damage bonus possible' rather than the 'most practical/most rules-solid way to get it.' I wouldn't actually play my first build, I was just having fun. Level six, elven archery, stick with wood elf, by then you can afford a solid back up weapon and some armor. That is something I would consider playing. Heck, I would rather save my level 3 feat until level four to get the build two levels earlier but ah, well.

[Cieyrin]

That doesn't, though, increase the value of extra Barbarian levels.

I'm saying that you can have your cake and eat it to, as what we want is more Rage and Furious allows us access without taking more levels. I don't think I'd see a Barbarian with Greater Rage otherwise, let alone Mighty, given how few games get into near Epic, let alone the midgame.

[Hirax]

Here's the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) that was mentioned. It has the barbarian rage variant that ups strength and dexterity, but on ranged attacks >30' you take a -2 penalty to attack rolls. Copy pasted in the spoiler box below for those that don't want to bother with the link:

Ferocity

Where most barbarians define themselves by nigh-unstoppable rage, a few streetfighters and urban warriors have mastered different techniques. By working up a surge of adrenaline, they hit just as hard, and substantially faster, than their counterparts, while dodging the inevitable counterattack.

Class: Barbarian.

Level: 1st.

Replaces: If you select this class feature, you do not gain rage, or any later improvements to that class feature, nor do you gain indomitable will.

Benefit: Once per day, the barbarian can enter a state of adrenaline-fueled fury, increasing both his physical might and his reaction time. He temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +4 bonus to Dexterity, but he takes a -2 penalty on ranged attack rolls beyond short range (30 feet).

He can enter this state as an immediate action, even when flat-footed at the start of combat, so he may apply the enhanced Dexterity modifier to his initiative check.

While in a state of ferocity, the barbarian cannot use any Charisma- or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration, nor can he cast spells or activate magic items that require a command word, a spell trigger (such as a wand), or spell completion (such as a scroll) to function. He can use any feat he has except item creation feats and metamagic feats. Ferocity lasts for a number of rounds equal to 4 + his Constitution modifier (if positive). The barbarian may prematurely end his state of ferocity. At the end of ferocity, he loses the ferocity modifiers and restrictions and become sickened (-2 on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies). Abilities that normally render him immune to being sickened (such as the Strong Stomach feat, Cityscape 64) reduce the penalties to -1, but do not remove them entirely.

The barbarian can invoke ferocity only once per encounter. At 1st level he can use this ability once per day. At 4th level and every four levels thereafter, he can use it one additional time per day (to a maximum of six times per day at 20th level).

Greater Ferocity: At 11th level, his bonuses to Strength and Dexterity during ferocity each increase to +6. In addition, the duration of his ferocity increases to 5 + your Constitution modifier (if positive).

Shifting Stance: At 14th level, while in a state of ferocity, he gains a +1 dodge bonus to Armor Class and Reflex saves.

In addition, while in a state of ferocity, the barbarian can stand from prone as a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity. If a foe that threatens him has a base attack bonus that is 4 points or more higher than his barbarian level, however, she gains an attack of opportunity as normal. (These abilities replace indomitable will.)

Relentless Ferocity: At 17th level, the duration of his ferocity increases to 6 + his Constitution modifier (if positive), and he no longer become sickened at the end of his ferocity. In addition, the dodge bonus granted by his shifting stance ability becomes +2.

Unstoppable Ferocity: At 20th level, the barbarian's bonuses to Strength and Dexterity during ferocity each increase to +8.

[Cog]

I think it is worded funny and can be interpreted multiple ways.
Not really. Either you're adding your Strength to the damage or you aren't. If you are, Vital Aim replaces it with Dexterity. If you aren't, Vital Aim has nothing to replace, and so it cannot add Dexterity.

[Eldariel]

I'm saying that you can have your cake and eat it to, as what we want is more Rage and Furious allows us access without taking more levels. I don't think I'd see a Barbarian with Greater Rage otherwise, let alone Mighty, given how few games get into near Epic, let alone the midgame.

Well, Runescarred Berserker gives you Greater Rage so that's common enough. Of course, RSB does require a mid-level game but at least I've played more than my share of those. That said, my point all along was that since Barbarian class scales so slow, there's little reason to take more than the first few levels in it outside perhaps Street Fighter (which is obviously useless for an Archer) and while Furious weapon does indeed advance Rage, that doesn't change this equation. Ergo, Furious or not one shall run ~1-5 levels in Barbarian in most builds.


Waiting till level four and stacking Elven Archery with the Barbarians Str. is a safer way to go.

Elven Archery?