Healer Optimization

[Tyndmyr]

Now, Healer, as a class, is not great for a PC. Terrific cohort, though. Load them up with heals, good to go.

So, what options make them better as a support char?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A one level dip in anything with Turn Undead, plus Divine Metacheese.

Now you have DMM Persist Lesser Vigor, Mass (and gradually walking up the chain as you gain access to higher level spells, and need more fast healing).

Divine Ward also helps increase the range of healing, so you can also DMM Chain stuff around.

Then all you need is some way of getting some decent buffs on their spell list and you're gold.

[Fouredged Sword]

A human (able learner) dip in bard (healing hymn) with versitle spellcaster, then geomancer and a single dip in warweaver.

Now you can use heal to effect everyone in the party and it heals an extra amount = to your ranks in preform. Also your CLW heals 1d8+5+ranks in preform to the whole party.

Never need healing again.

[dhusarra]

the healer alone cast no spontaneous casting?if you take one 1 level of cleric you have spontaneous casting?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

A human (able learner) dip in bard (healing hymn) with versitle spellcaster, then geomancer and a single dip in warweaver.

Now you can use heal to effect everyone in the party and it heals an extra amount = to your ranks in preform. Also your CLW heals 1d8+5+ranks in preform to the whole party.

Never need healing again.

Rather complicated, and Bard has a hard time getting a 2nd level spell for Geomancer, and you still have a hard time getting a relevant number of levels in Healer to properly call it a healer build.

There's other problems with this build, of course, but that's the main one.

A cleaned up version would be:

Savage Bard/UrPriest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge

Nets you 9's on both sides, Healing Hymn, and actually relevant spells to cast it with. Also nets you turn undead so you can DMM Chain spells to your heart's content.

[Coidzor]

Sacred Exorcist > PrC Paladin to pick up some buff spells?

Then again, the Healer's Handbook acts like Radiant Servant of Pelor is terribly onerous for the Healer to get into, so it might be that Sacred Exorcist is the linchpin there.

[Tyndmyr]

I'd presume you'd pick up the second level spell via the usual early entry options. That's a decent build, as I presume you then only need one level of bard, probably your first for skill points.

Personally, I figure if you were gonna dip cleric, you might as well just go cleric, but hey. To each their own.

[wormwood]

Give him 20 levels of Cleric and call him "Healer".

[Fouredged Sword]

Sanctum spell gets you counting as able to cast 2nd level spells. War weaver looses another caster level, so you have 18/20 healer casting.

The goal is to get 5 levels of geomancer and 5 levels of warweaver. Now you can cast all your 5th and lower healer spells and effect the whole party. If you use legacy champion or some other advancement class you would be able to extrend the trick further up the spell levels.

The idea was a character who is useful out of combat, but almost completely useless inside combat.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Sanctum spell gets you counting as able to cast 2nd level spells. War weaver looses another caster level, so you have 18/20 healer casting. Ugh, don't get that discussion started again, please.


The goal is to get 5 levels of geomancer and 5 levels of warweaver. Now you can cast all your 5th and lower healer spells and effect the whole party. If you use legacy champion or some other advancement class you would be able to extrend the trick further up the spell levels.

The idea was a character who is useful out of combat, but almost completely useless inside combat.

Only, he's NOT useful out of combat, other than to slowly regenerate party HP. Which you can do with DMM: Persist Lesser Vigor, Mass, without needing to dip all kinds of shenanigans.

[Zaq]

There's always Sanctified Spells, which you automatically get. Hardly groundbreaking optimization, but options are good, and you can deal with the stat damage pretty easily.

[Psyren]

There's always Sanctified Spells, which you automatically get. Hardly groundbreaking optimization, but options are good, and you can deal with the stat damage pretty easily.

Yep, was just going to suggest this.

Sovereign Speaker is another great option, because more domains = more spells. you'll need a domain first though (e.g. from Contemplative.)

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

There's always Sanctified Spells, which you automatically get. Hardly groundbreaking optimization, but options are good, and you can deal with the stat damage pretty easily.

Actually Sanctified (and Corrupt for that matter) get a whole heck of a lot better if you throw up a sheltered vitality when they are about to end (persisting it works wonders as well just make sure sheltered vitality ends AFTER the Sanctified/Corrupt spell you have up end). Free spells that I don't have to pay costs for that are actually pretty decent as a whole? Sign me up.

[Jjeinn-tae]

When you're at high level, tell your cohort that gating in solars and telling them to gate in solars (and telling the new solars to do the same) is "Awesome, and everyone's doing it." That's all the support you need from him. :smalltongue:



In seriousness though... I agree, getting him to persist mass vigor helps. Get a lot of wands of healing so you'll never be wanting (and he'll use them himself, removing the need for your actions). Then, all other magic items should go towards making the enemy not do things. Kind of hard without many good wands for it that a Healer can use (to my knowledge) but digging deep enough will probably find some gems.

[holywhippet]

the healer alone cast no spontaneous casting?if you take one 1 level of cleric you have spontaneous casting?

Correct for the first bit - healers have to prepare their spells in advance.

Negative for the second bit - a single level of cleric gives you a seperate pool of spells which you can spontaneously convert (except your domain spell).

[ShneekeyTheLost]

the healer alone cast no spontaneous casting?if you take one 1 level of cleric you have spontaneous casting?

yes to the first, no to the second, and (just like many other problems) There's a Feat for That (tm). Specifically from CDivine, Spontaneous Healer. Lets you spontaneously cast any Cure spell you have access to.

[Tyndmyr]

Honestly, I don't see the spont thing being that big a deal. The spell list is small enough that you can include a LOT of cures on your daily prep list...and since you have the 1/day free cure condition abilities...you don't need to waste many slots on that.

[Psyren]

Honestly, I don't see the spont thing being that big a deal. The spell list is small enough that you can include a LOT of cures on your daily prep list...and since you have the 1/day free cure condition abilities...you don't need to waste many slots on that.

The spell list being small is itself a problem though. There's not much point in being a prepared caster if your choices are that limited, which is why lack of spontaneous curing isn't much of a drawback for them.

The logic is "if they have next-to-nothing to prepare but cures anyway, why should not being able to spontaneously cast those cures matter?" The answer being: you're right, it doesn't, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

However, since most of these solutions involve expanding their spell list - either giving them select domains, or access to sanctified spells, every healing spell in SpC, and even a select list of buffs or protection spells - then the lack of spontaneous healing becomes more of a problem. Giving them more spells won't help if they still have to load up on Cures every day, so that suggestion goes hand-in-hand with the others.

(And here again the Cleric beats the pants off them - not only can Clerics spontaneously cast cure spells, they can also spontaneously cast Sanctified Spells. It's no contest.)

[Greenish]

Sanctum spell gets you counting as able to cast 2nd level spells.Even if that worked, you'd need two levels in bard, since they only get cantrips on first level.

[Cieyrin]

T.G. Oskar's retool (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133118) balances the disparity somewhat, at least in my mind.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

One of the interesting things you can try to do with Healers, since they are a spontaneous casting class, is use the Spontaneous Divine Caster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) variant, which lets them spontaneously cast off of their list, although their spells known is very limited.

However, if we combo this with something like Soverign Speaker, which gets a TON of domains, then we get to expand the spell list significantly. However, they need a domain first. So let's see what we can do about getting ourselves a domain.

Well, let's open up our Complete Divine books, and see if we can find one that works...

Contemplative was my first go-to for domains, but it requires 13 ranks in Knowledge (religion), so that's minimum level 10 to qualify, entry at 11. Not cool.

The Church Inquisitor gets the Inquisition domain, but you need to be able to cast Zone of Truth, which the Healers don't get access to.

The Divine Oracle nets the Oracle domain. That might work. Oh, wait... requires two divination spells. Well, Speak with Animals is a Divination spell. So is Status. Deathwatch is an Orison, but I don't know if that counts. Either way, we qualify for Divine Oracle by level 5, entry in at level 6. The spells aren't particularly handy, but it gets us access to a lot more, so that is a trade-off I'm willing to work with.

Now, Seeker of the Misty Isle is a good one, as long as you're an elf or half elf. You will need 8 ranks in Survival, but guess what... Survival just so happens to be a Healer class skill. So qualify by Healer5, then into Seeker at level 6, then into Soverign Speaker at level 7.

Now you've got a bunch of domains you automatically cast spontaneously from, with a much expanded spell list as a result, and still do the healing shtick.

So it looks like this: (Spontaneous) Healer5/Seeker of the Misty Isle1/Sovereign Speaker10/xxx4

So, some improvements to this:

Turning Undead can fuel Divine feats. However, Healers don't get this 'out of the box'. So we'll need to find a way to get that. Fortunately, There's a PrC For That (tm).

Sacred Exorcist is generally the go-to guy for this, since it advances casting as well. However, we've got a problem. Specifically, we'll need either Dismissal or Dispel Evil on our list to get it. Which we don't have. Fortunately, There's a Domain for That (tm). However, I don't necessarily want to be blowing a domain just for access to turn undead if I don't have to, specially since I don't know if we can find a decent one with one or the other on there.

Warpriest, at first, seems contradictory. But, we can pick up the Protection domain easily enough, since it has some useful buffs in it, and it nets us the Glory domain as well. While not spectacular for this build, it gives you some blasting options, and does net access to Gate. You lose a caster level for doing so, but it might be worth it.

The Good domain nets access to dispel Evil as a 5th level spell. That's at CL 9. It also nets Holy Word, which can be abused if done properly. Holy Aura is also a decent buff.

So now we're looking at Healer5/Seeker1/Speaker4/Sacred Exorcist1/... and that enables turning for Divine Metacheese.

[Tyndmyr]

Warpriest, at first, seems contradictory. But, we can pick up the Protection domain easily enough, since it has some useful buffs in it, and it nets us the Glory domain as well. While not spectacular for this build, it gives you some blasting options, and does net access to Gate. You lose a caster level for doing so, but it might be worth it.

While this is otherwise awesome, doesn't the Healer already have Gate on it's list?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

While this is otherwise awesome, doesn't the Healer already have Gate on it's list?

It means you don't need to spend a Spell Known on it, which means you can afford to lose a caster level or two and not miss out on the most powerful spell available to you.

[Coidzor]

Knight of the Raven is qualified for by a straight Healer at level 8, and gives Turn Undead at either 1st or 3rd level (AFB) as well as the Sun Domain. This may be slightly easier than fitting in the spells known to get into Sacred Exorcist.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Knight of the Raven is qualified for by a straight Healer at level 8, and gives Turn Undead at either 1st or 3rd level (AFB) as well as the Sun Domain. This may be slightly easier than fitting in the spells known to get into Sacred Exorcist.

Expedition to Ravenloft is a *VERY* obscure source, though...

[Cieyrin]

Expedition to Ravenloft is a *VERY* obscure source, though...

I'm not sure how obscurity comes into it. If Tyndmyr has access to it, why not use it?

[Coidzor]

Expedition to Ravenloft is a *VERY* obscure source, though...

*Shrug* We're not operating under a set of stated restrictions.

[Silva Stormrage]

Another thing to note is that the exalted spells in book of exalted deeds are great for a healer. They add the much needed diversity to the healer's spell list. Pair that with a cleric dip for turn undead (+ 2-3 domains) and you have a serviceable tier 4-3 character. Depending on how badly you abuse divine metamagic.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Another thing to note is that the exalted spells in book of exalted deeds are great for a healer. They add the much needed diversity to the healer's spell list. Pair that with a cleric dip for turn undead (+ 2-3 domains) and you have a serviceable tier 4-3 character. Depending on how badly you abuse divine metamagic.

Cleric dip is not going to help, because it doesn't add the domains to the Healer spell list, but rather keeps them for its own. There's other PrC's that you can dip into for Turn Undead, or for adding domains to the Healer list. Adding a new spell list to cast from is counter-productive to this discussion.

[Silva Stormrage]

Cleric dip is not going to help, because it doesn't add the domains to the Healer spell list, but rather keeps them for its own. There's other PrC's that you can dip into for Turn Undead, or for adding domains to the Healer list. Adding a new spell list to cast from is counter-productive to this discussion.

I didn't mean the domains for the spells. I meant for the domain's powers, such as planning or undeath.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I didn't mean the domains for the spells. I meant for the domain's powers, such as planning or undeath.

You get that already with Sovereign Speaker, with the added advantage of actually being able to cast the domain spells.

[Coidzor]

You get that already with Sovereign Speaker, with the added advantage of actually being able to cast the domain spells.

Does dipping cleric 1 really not open up any possibilities soon enough with the addition of turn undead to outweigh the loss of a single level?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Does dipping cleric 1 really not open up any possibilities soon enough with the addition of turn undead to outweigh the loss of a single level?

Since this is a Healer build, I'd really like to stick to things which work with Healer. If we wanted to use Cleric, then just use Cleric.

In other words, I'd consider it cheating to blend in a T1 class when we're trying to work with a T5 class... much like how I don't consider most of the 'monk works, look at this build' builds to be actual monk builds, because the majority of the build is Swordsage, Barbarian, Fighter, and other higher-powered classes

Does it contribute something? Probably. Choose the right domains, and you've basically got two free feats and Turn Undead. Yea, that might be worth the loss of a caster level, however you also loose those domains as being able to be cast from. So care must be taken that the granted domain ability is worth not casting from it.

[Coidzor]

Does it contribute something? Probably. Choose the right domains, and you've basically got two free feats and Turn Undead. Yea, that might be worth the loss of a caster level, however you also loose those domains as being able to be cast from. So care must be taken that the granted domain ability is worth not casting from it.

Maybe devotion feat 'em away... In any event, it mostly seems to have utility for opening up turn undead requiring things earlier in the build rather than having to spend several feats and levels to get access to those PrCs late in the build.

I can't recall though, if the healer chassis is able to actually take advantage of this to any effect.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Maybe devotion feat 'em away... In any event, it mostly seems to have utility for opening up turn undead requiring things earlier in the build rather than having to spend several feats and levels to get access to those PrCs late in the build.

I can't recall though, if the healer chassis is able to actually take advantage of this to any effect.

They are a divine casting class... DMM works just fine with them. Divine Spell power + Good domain (which nets you entry into Sacred Exorcist through dispel Evil anyways) for Holy Word = insta-gib encounters with no save.

Also, if you Devotion them away, then you lose the bonus feats. For example, you can't take the Planning domain for prerequisites for Persist Spell, because when you Devotion it away, you lose the bonus feat.

[Coidzor]

Also, if you Devotion them away, then you lose the bonus feats. For example, you can't take the Planning domain for prerequisites for Persist Spell, because when you Devotion it away, you lose the bonus feat.

Of course if I were going to take Planning I wouldn't devotion feat it away.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So basically, my two cents on healer:

if you work at it, you can do some of the things a Cleric does without any effort at all. So basically, it's a bit better balanced, although it could use a slightly wider spell list to incorporate some buffing potential.

[noparlpf]

Let's see...without houserules or homebrew, here are some ideas I've seen.
-A friend of mine played pure Healer except for a one-level dip in Hierophant for the 30' reach.
-Some of the obvious feat choices are Augment Healing and Magic of the Land. After that I personally go with metamagic, but it's up to the person.
-Oh, and the trait Spellgifted (Conjuration) lets you boost the CL of all Conjuration spells by one in exchange for a -1 penalty to CL for all other schools of magic. So with the Healing domain (see below), you get +2 CL for Conjuration [Healing] spells. That's handy.
-When I played one yesterday (12th level), I took five levels of Healer, one level in Cleric (for Turn Undead), then six levels of Radiant Servant. Put the Radiant Servant divine casting towards Healer rather than Cleric. Then the bonus domain from RS technically applies to Healer because RS is advancing Healer. Pick Healing as the bonus domain. Then there are two options; the feat Domain Spontaneity or the variant Spontaneous Divine Caster. Either lets you cast your domain spells spontaneously, so you can apply the automatic Maximize from RS to your Healing domain spells. (The Mass versions you get at one level lower as a Healer don't get the free Maximize, only the regular-level ones you get from your domain.)
(If the DM lets you take the class features given as feats for the UA generic classes, you don't need to take a level in Cleric for that build. That, however, is a houserule.)

[ranagrande]

I recommend Frostburn and a level of bard.

Bard 1/Healer 5/Rimefire Witch 10

or

Bard 1/Healer 4/Stormsinger 10

would both be fun support characters, and they both still have more levels to play with.