[PF] Yet another point of ambiguity - Scout Archetype features

[Volkspanzer]

I was thinking of creating a 2-handed Weapon Scout/Acrobat Archetype Rogue. Everything seems to be coming together well, with the theme of mobility and getting to soft targets with no problem.

However I was looking at the the two features of the Scout Archetype:


Scout’s Charge (Ex)
At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.

Skirmisher (Ex)
At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability.


Considering how the sneak attack damage is applied to the regular attack, rather than actually being called a sneak attack in of itself, does this mean that any rogue talent that applies additional effects to your sneak attack (such as Crippling Strike) do not apply to these abilities?

[BlueInc]

As a DM, I would say if you get Sneak Attack, you get Sneak Attack; check with your DM for their interpretation.

[tyckspoon]

Sneak Attack isn't a special attack in itself; it's bonus damage that applies to a regular attack under certain conditions. The Scout archetype abilities just give you an alternate means of satisfying those conditions.

Or, to put it another way..

Considering how the sneak attack damage is applied to the regular attack

This is true of ALL Sneak Attack. If this is taken to mean that the Scout SA triggers aren't 'real' Sneak Attack, then neither is standard Rogue's SA, and none of the Sneak Attack-related Talents actually do anything.

[subject42]

her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed.

I think it's straight-up sneak attack, based on how the clauses naturally divide.

Her attack deals sneak attack damage || as if the target were flat footed.


The target isn't flat-footed, but you deal sneak attack damage as if it were.

[Xtomjames]

Well here's the deal with this. The scout's abilities presume that you're using sneak attack purely as a scout. However, a Rogue's and Scout's sneak attacks stack and a there are abilities that a rogue can take that allow for more than one sneak attack in a full round attack or a two weapon attack. Because the Rogue's abilities are primary and found in the Core Rule Book they should be taken as the precedent. Thus if you take rogue levels you are always sneak attacking as though you're a rogue, even if you use other abilities related to sneak attack gained through a different class.

Thus if you can sneak attack with two weapons, even if an ability says it's specifically applies to a main attack only, it's over rode by the prime abilities as defined for the rogue.

[Volkspanzer]

Well here's the deal with this. The scout's abilities presume that you're using sneak attack purely as a scout. However, a Rogue's and Scout's sneak attacks stack and a there are abilities that a rogue can take that allow for more than one sneak attack in a full round attack or a two weapon attack. Because the Rogue's abilities are primary and found in the Core Rule Book they should be taken as the precedent. Thus if you take rogue levels you are always sneak attacking as though you're a rogue, even if you use other abilities related to sneak attack gained through a different class.

Thus if you can sneak attack with two weapons, even if an ability says it's specifically applies to a main attack only, it's over rode by the prime abilities as defined for the rogue.

Not to be rude, but I don't think you're on the same page. An Archetype, in this case the Scout Archetype, is merely a set of features that replace other features within a Base Class, in this case the Rogue Class.

In this example, Scout's Charge replaces Uncanny Dodge, and Skirmisher replaces Improved Uncanny Dodge. Here's the link if you're interested:

Scout Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout)
________

Anyway, if a sneak attack is merely classified as the extra damage, and Rogue talents do apply to the effects of these Scout abilities, I'm gonna have some fun with this :).

[TurtleKing]

So far the only core class that has really interested me is the Ranger. In 3.5 it is the casters, but PF has me liking the martial classes more. Thank you for pointing out a reason to look at the Rogue. I need to check it out.

I would say those talents would apply. All the Scout Archtype did was give you a new way to pull them off.

[NamelessNPC]

If what you are after is damage, scout is a wonderful archetype. I used one in my last campaign and I was pretty satisfied with it. Combine with power attack and furious focus and you are killing an enemy per full round action

[Xtomjames]

Not to be rude, but I don't think you're on the same page. An Archetype, in this case the Scout Archetype, is merely a set of features that replace other features within a Base Class, in this case the Rogue Class.

In this example, Scout's Charge replaces Uncanny Dodge, and Skirmisher replaces Improved Uncanny Dodge. Here's the link if you're interested:

Scout Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/scout)
________

Anyway, if a sneak attack is merely classified as the extra damage, and Rogue talents do apply to the effects of these Scout abilities, I'm gonna have some fun with this :).

My apologies, I thought you were talking about the PF Scout class.

That said, what I said still holds true, the Rogue's abilities remain the base and standard, so if you have a feat or rogue talent that grants extra sneak attacks via TWF they operate as precedent and override the limitations of an ability's descriptor.

[BlueInc]

So far the only core class that has really interested me is the Ranger. In 3.5 it is the casters, but PF has me liking the martial classes more. Thank you for pointing out a reason to look at the Rogue. I need to check it out.

I would say those talents would apply. All the Scout Archtype did was give you a new way to pull them off.

Ultimate Combat will only increase this desire. There's several good archetypes for Monks, the Gunslinger, the Ninja, and so many archetypes for archer characters that I really want to put together an all-archer party sometime.