Major image...?

[candycorn]

Ok, Major Image works like silent image, except that it adds extra effects, such as smell, and thermal effects.

Thermal effects. As in... heat.

Now it's a figment, so this heat cannot actually damage, though, obviously, it can be felt. Which leads me to the question....

How good a torture method would such an illusionary fire be?

[Gwendol]

Not very, unless the subject has fobia against being burned.

[candycorn]

Not very, unless the subject has fobia against being burned.

The spell produces thermal effects. That is heat, that can be felt. It can't cause HP damage, but that is a different matter entirely from pain.

Put your hand directly over a campfire, inches from the flame. Just for a second, don't want any damage to be caused. Imagine feeling that heat, that pain, but not ever suffering actual damage.

It wouldn't work with Silent image... I know that. It doesn't create illusory thermal effects. This does.

[Gwendol]

Yeah, but there is no damage. That means you can only threaten the subject with torture, not subject them to torture. Vastly different things. At most I'd give a bonus to intimidate rolls.

[candycorn]

Yeah, but there is no damage. That means you can only threaten the subject with torture, not subject them to torture. Vastly different things. At most I'd give a bonus to intimidate rolls.

Pain and damage are not the same thing.

Pain is the sensation of discomfort, in varying degrees.
Damage is the destruction of the body, in varying degrees.

Real fire does both.
This fire does only the first.

And if you think you can't torture someone with pain unless you cause actual damage to them...

HP are an abstract, representing how close to death one is. No, this can't ever bring you closer to death. That's not the point of torture, though, so that's ok.

But characters won't think, "oh, this isn't reducing my HP total". That's an abstract concept. It's like a constitution score. Barbarians aren't parading around saying, "I have a 17 Constitution". Such a concept does not exist as such in the world.

Such a character would think, "I'm tough... I can easily hold my breath for 2 minutes!" And a character that feels pain, even if it doesn't do damage, would think, "OW!"

Not, "My, I'm still at 73 Hit Points!"

[Gwendol]

You asked how good an illusion of fire would be to torture someone and I gave you my opinion. Yeah, sure the subject will react to the illusion, but the moment you "burn" him/her with it and they aren't, in fact, burned, the illusion fails.
That has nothing to do with pain or damage, just that it is an illusion. You're better off using a candle.

[prufock]

There isn't really any mechanic for what you're suggesting. The closest might actually be Symbol of Pain, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPain.htm) under which a character "suffers wracking pains that impose a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks." Not exactly what you'd like.

Also, if pain IS a mechanical effect, it isn't one that Major Image produces, just like you can't have Silent Image produce the world's brightest light to blind somebody.

[candycorn]

There isn't really any mechanic for what you're suggesting. The closest might actually be Symbol of Pain, (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/symbolOfPain.htm) under which a character "suffers wracking pains that impose a -4 penalty on attack rolls, skill checks, and ability checks." Not exactly what you'd like.

Also, if pain IS a mechanical effect, it isn't one that Major Image produces, just like you can't have Silent Image produce the world's brightest light to blind somebody.

It's outlined in BoVD, and various instruments can be used to produce it.

Major Image states it can create heat. That is enough to provide an effect, IMO as outlined in the torture section of BoVD. It's used in conjunction with a skill check to accomplish the goal.

Just as Silent image CAN be used with a move silently check to prevent a creature from detecting you (say, an illusion of a wall between the two). Now, the rules don't explicitly SAY that Silent Image can be used that way, so would that mean that, no matter what, people can see through silent images?

Or are we going to agree that heat is capable of inflicting pain?

[Gwendol]

The spell description says thermal illusions. It also says the illusions disappear when struck. The spell doesn't create heat.

It just seems like waste of a third level spell to me.

[BlackestOfMages]

I'd say it works, for two reasons. A) It's perfectly possible to cause someone pain without actually harming them, as pain isn't a result of damage, it's our bdies warning signal to stop doing that and can be triggered in other ways and B) A good hypnotist could do it in our world, so an illusion probably would be able to as well

and a Thermal illsuion is an illusion of heat that something is experiancing mentally without the phyiscal effect of heat, as that's what an illsuion is. otherwise I could say your visual illusions is a waste of a 3rd level spell because it dosen't actually produce anything truly visual (only to the mind). And if it's not in the mind, then disbelieving an illusion would do zip all

it'd work, unless the DM says otherwise. they'd still be unharmed the moment the illusion ends, but if it's illusionary heat from illusionary fire it'd take an idiotic creature to hit it...

EDIT: also, for mechanical effects, I think this question was asked in the context of roleplay rather than direct combat, so it dosen't need to work in combat (all illusions spells able to duplicate effects in combat would be obscenly powerful, so they can;t for balance reasons)

[candycorn]

The spell description says thermal illusions. It also says the illusions disappear when struck. The spell doesn't create heat.

It just seems like waste of a third level spell to me.

Thermal (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thermal) is to heat as Canine is to Dog.

In other words, an illusion with a thermal (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/thermal) quality is one with qualities pertaining to heat.

The spell creates the illusion of heat. And the illusion of heat, when believed, should be just as painful as the real thing, just as the illusion of a torch casts just as much light as the real thing, or the illusion of smell can affect something with Scent just as much as a real odor (excepting limitations placed on figments, such as prevention of actual damage).

[Gwendol]

Thank you for pointing me to a dictionary... now I finally know what thermal means!
You said in your previous post that
Major Image states it can create heat. That is enough to provide an effect, IMO as outlined in the torture section of BoVD. It's used in conjunction with a skill check to accomplish the goal.

And I say that the illusion of heat is only real unless you have to apply it. Since it is an illusion, no damaging effects are produced, and thus the subject will no longer believe the illusion. Therefore, as a tool for torture, it is not very effective. Use a torch. Or candle. Or embers.

[Yuki Akuma]

Figments are perfectly capable of making people think they're hurt. That's what the Will save for interaction is for.

[candycorn]

Thank you for pointing me to a dictionary... now I finally know what thermal means!
You said in your previous post that

And I say that the illusion of heat is only real unless you have to apply it. Since it is an illusion, no damaging effects are produced, and thus the subject will no longer believe the illusion. Therefore, as a tool for torture, it is not very effective. Use a torch. Or candle. Or embers.

Saying that people don't feel illusory heat is like saying that they don't hear illusory sound.

An effect need not be damaging to be painful. A thermal illusion is one where those that experience the illusion FEEL heat.

One with an audio component? They HEAR sound.
Visual? They SEE something.

The thing which is generating these sensations doesn't actually exist, but everyone that experiences one of these, will experience one of these.

Now, one may rationally disbelieve an illusion, if the heat is so painful that it feels like the flesh should be charred from their bones, and yes, they see their skin unblemished... Now there's a contradiction that enables one to disprove, and thus disbelieve, the illusion. But without the contradiction, the best they get is a Save for interacting with the illusion.

So, for example, the illusion of incredibly hot metal in a dark smoky room, when you're strapped down and blindfolded, and can't use your other senses to verify that you're not burning? You'd get a save. Not an autopass.

[Gwendol]

Sure, but where do you draw the line? The body isn't hurt after all.


A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw.

This is what I mean, and this is why this isn't an efficient method of torture. Good for intimidating though.

[candycorn]

Sure, but where do you draw the line? The body isn't hurt after all.


This is what I mean, and this is why this isn't an efficient method of torture. Good for intimidating though.

The body isn't DAMAGED. There is a difference. Pain and damage are not the same thing. BoVD establishes this VERY clearly. Being hurt and being injured are two totally seperate things.

I understand what you're saying, but you need proof, and pain is highly subjective. If you can't see the flesh, nor touch your unburned skin, then you're not going to get that proof. You'll feel pain, and smell scorched flesh. And that's it.

That's interaction, not proof. Enough for a save; not enough to autopass.

[Gwendol]

Yes... but you need to know what you are trying to impress. And if the subject is more knowledgable than you on the subject, it might be enough cause for disbelief:

A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. (It is not a personalized mental impression.) Figments cannot make something seem to be something else. A figment that includes audible effects cannot duplicate intelligible speech unless the spell description specifically says it can. If intelligible speech is possible, it must be in a language you can speak. If you try to duplicate a language you cannot speak, the image produces gibberish. Likewise, you cannot make a visual copy of something unless you know what it looks like.

So, if you want a subject to feel the heat and the sensation of their flesh burning you need to know what that feels like. I still think it's more efficient to just use a torch.

[candycorn]

Yes... but you need to know what you are trying to impress. And if the subject is more knowledgable than you on the subject, it might be enough cause for disbelief:And you know how you determine that?

A saving throw. If it passes, they found some sort of inconsistency in the illusion, and can unravel it.


So, if you want a subject to feel the heat and the sensation of their flesh burning you need to know what that feels like. I still think it's more efficient to just use a torch.
Perhaps, if you're not concerned with the risk of the subject dying.

The entire reason for this is to make it as simple as possible. No stopping for healing or close monitoring to make sure they don't die. The idea is torment, not "hit em with a burning stick until they stop moving".

[CTrees]

First, I suspect most adventurers high enough level to cast Major Image are intimately familiar with how burning flesh feels and smells. Just throwing that out there.

Second, anyone familiar with Dune? Remember the Bene Gesserit box of pain (they used it to test Paul). That was basically exactly this. It's an illusion, no actual damage is done, but it feels like your hand is burning into ash. It's extremely effective at what it does, and is precisely what the OP is suggesting.

I see no problem with this use of Major Image - just gotta work with those will saves.

[Andorax]

I'm going to go with the "yes, is effective" crowd on this one, though I would also point out that there's two different kinds of torture:

1) "Yay, I made him feel pain, I'm eeeeevil".

By itself, creating the thermal sensation of being roasted alive will accomplish this, but it isn't actually useful.



2) "Now you will tell me what I want or the flames return, and keep right on returning. I can burn you all night like this."

This becomes a useful tool, and circumstance bonus, for an intimidate or BOVD torture check. The skill check produces the actual desirable results though.


As for my basis for the effective use of non-damaging pain...the "illusion of burning" as it were. Reference the "Pain Box" from Dune (aw...swordsaged)...as far as the head is concerned, the hand is being fried to a crisp, but it's all false signals being sent directly to the nervous system.


As for Gwendol's "it's still more efficient to just use a torch"...true. For that matter, if you need an undamaged subject when you're done, you can use a torch and a healing spell. But there's still the potential for messing something up and permanently injuring/killing the subject, or limits on how much healing you have avaiable (and thus how much burning you can do). Thermal damage via illusion? You can keep it up for hours if you can maintain your concentration on the task at hand.

[CTrees]

Thermal damage via illusion? You can keep it up for hours if you can maintain your concentration on the task at hand.


Or you have a cohort who can :smallwink:

[BlackestOfMages]

@ Gwendol: I think your missing that, in the actual RP terms, everyones not able to check on their hit-point total every second to see if it has dropped. all they have is feelings and sensations just like a we do. if they feel heat, and see a visual illusion of their arm/whatever burning, then they're going to react like they're burning, as sensation and sight are all we have to tell us we're hurt.

like I said earlier, go to any fairly decent hypnotist and they could eaisly make you feel like your on fire. you won;t be, but you'll be feeling it all right:smallwink: (though you might get an odd look for the request...)

[Tyndmyr]

Thank you for pointing me to a dictionary... now I finally know what thermal means!
You said in your previous post that

And I say that the illusion of heat is only real unless you have to apply it. Since it is an illusion, no damaging effects are produced, and thus the subject will no longer believe the illusion. Therefore, as a tool for torture, it is not very effective. Use a torch. Or candle. Or embers.

Eh, a hot poker approaching their eye might be a useful method for convincing someone.

You don't need to actually inflict pain or status effects to get a nice little circumstance bonus.

[erikun]

I'd say no.

The first problem is that even non-real effects produce HP damage if they are believed. Phantasmal Killer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/phantasmalKiller.htm) can deal damage even though it is never real, and the shadow illusion lines still deal full damage to someone who believes they are real. A Shadow Evocation only does around 10 points of "real" damage, but someone believing it is real will take the full damage and possibly die from it.

Second, even if it does work for a round or so, the subject is going to catch on very quickly. This is because while a Major Image can produce the illusion of heat - even "painful heat" questionably - it doesn't produce the illusion of pain. It can't produce the sensation of "burning" either, because there isn't an object, creature, or force (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/silentImage.htm) of burning. That would be a seperate illusion and not something covered by Major Image. Once the target realizes that this pain is fake - that it's not sticking around, that it's not causing the pain expected - then the entire illusion falls apart.

[EDIT]
Actually, the more I think about it, the less I believe this would actually work. You can create the illusionary properities of an object, but not how a person reacts to it. That is, you can create an illusionary hot way (unbelievably hot, if you wish) and can make me feel that heat, you could not actually increase my body temperature that way and cannot force my body to start acting in pain because of it.

Just as with holding a sharp but illusionary object, my body may react automatically in thinking that the object hurt - but the sensation is momentary and doesn't linger, and wouldn't be as bad as actually being injured.

[candycorn]

Just like, say, the person hearing an illusionary sound? The hearing sensation is momentary, so they'll obviously realize it's fake?

Illusionary sound is pretty much real sound, with the proviso that it can't cause damage.

An illusionary smell is the same... People aren't going to realize that the scent of roast duck is fake by smelling it.

Illusionary heat could very well be disbelieved when it is removed, and the pain is utterly gone, no lingering effects that accompany actual burns. But as long as it is actually doing the burning, I suspect a will save is a good measurement for figuring out that there's no ongoing pain from burns underneath the excruciating pain from heat.

[Gavinfoxx]

Gom Jabbar!

[Metahuman1]

Depends on the subject. If there tough enough, it won't work once they know it's not real. Hell, it there tough enough, it might not work if it IS real.

[Infernalbargain]

A figment spell creates a false sensation.

This seems pretty cut and dry here. Feeling heat is a sensation. In most cases, the subject would be entitled to a save on this one.

[candycorn]

This seems pretty cut and dry here. Feeling heat is a sensation. In most cases, the subject would be entitled to a save on this one.

Excellent, I wanted something a bit more RAW for this

[Larpus]

Well, I guess it works, but the target needs to fail its Will save, possibly with some bonuses to pass since it obviously won't burn him and as such will hint that it's not a real flame (failing is like when you're inside a nightmare, knows it's a dream, wants to wake up, but can't).

Though if you want to make it more real, manipulate the image to make it smell and look as if it did burn him, doing so would deny any bonuses on the saves I think...

Or deny the save altogether, my DM considers "interaction" with illusions actually touching them or having any reason to be suspicious (such as you make the illusion of a guard who just left the room, but makes him enter through the wrong door), if the person has never been burn, but you make the effects as if he/she is being burn, then there is no reason for them to suspect anything and as such get no save.

[candycorn]

Well, I guess it works, but the target needs to fail its Will save, possibly with some bonuses to pass since it obviously won't burn him and as such will hint that it's not a real flame (failing is like when you're inside a nightmare, knows it's a dream, wants to wake up, but can't).

Though if you want to make it more real, manipulate the image to make it smell and look as if it did burn him, doing so would deny any bonuses on the saves I think...

Or deny the save altogether, my DM considers "interaction" with illusions actually touching them or having any reason to be suspicious (such as you make the illusion of a guard who just left the room, but makes him enter through the wrong door), if the person has never been burn, but you make the effects as if he/she is being burn, then there is no reason for them to suspect anything and as such get no save.

There's a reason I limited it to a torture tool.

1) Assumes the subject is helpless.
2) Assumes that, for whatever reason, you wish the subject to remain alive.

With these assumptions, it's not a challenge to limit other senses. Heck, many races can have vision limited simply by imposing darkness. Now, they won't see themselves not being burned.

Interaction is generally defined as "detecting, with one of your senses, some form of inconsistency with the illusion".

For example, if there is a stone wall illusion, but you easily hear something on the other side that isn't muffled. That's an inconsistency.

[Milo v3]

It would work.
You see as it can mimic thermal it people will sense heat from the flame. Now say you moved the illusionary flame to the persons hand. They will then have to make a Will Save.
They succeed its disbelieved.
They fail they sense the heat and pain and there mind fills in the blanks making them think that it is burning them. But each round they interact with it they are allowed another will save.

[candycorn]

It would work.
You see as it can mimic thermal it people will sense heat from the flame. Now say you moved the illusionary flame to the persons hand. They will then have to make a Will Save.
They succeed its disbelieved.
They fail they sense the heat and pain and there mind fills in the blanks making them think that it is burning them. But each round they interact with it they are allowed another will save.

Under that reasoning, simply seeing an illusion is enough to interact. That's not interaction. Interact means that there needs to be mutual effect. For example: Feeling heat on your face is not interacting with a fire. Throwing wood on it is.

Why? The fire can't be affected by the first. In the latter, you are making a change which alters the fire, and are observing the result. That is interaction.

Viewing, or feeling, or what have you, by itself, should not be interaction.

[Milo v3]

Under that reasoning, simply seeing an illusion is enough to interact. That's not interaction. Interact means that there needs to be mutual effect. For example: Feeling heat on your face is not interacting with a fire. Throwing wood on it is.

Why? The fire can't be affected by the first. In the latter, you are making a change which alters the fire, and are observing the result. That is interaction.

Viewing, or feeling, or what have you, by itself, should not be interaction.

Except it is interaction in that the fire is supposed to alter the touched body part by burning and damaging skin. But it doesn't, so it is interaction.
You don't have to alter the illusion for it to be an interaction. If you would be altered by the illusion but it doesn't then you are also interacting with it.
So yes you can use it as a form of torture but it can be disbelieved.

I'm not saying the heat is causing the will save. I'm saying the lack of side effects of fire is causing the will save.

Edit: But I would increase the DC slightly because the person can feel heat and pain from the fire.

[candycorn]

Except it is interaction in that the fire is supposed to alter the touched body part by burning and damaging skin. But it doesn't, so it is interaction.
You don't have to alter the illusion for it to be an interaction. If you would be altered by the illusion but it doesn't then you are also interacting with it.
So yes you can use it as a form of torture but it can be disbelieved.

I'm not saying the heat is causing the will save. I'm saying the lack of side effects of fire is causing the will save.

Edit: But I would increase the DC slightly because the person can feel heat and pain from the fire.

In that case, I'd grant a single save, not a round-by-round. It's a single ongoing interaction.

I would say, if you're not in a position to observe the ongoing effects (for example, you cannot see or touch the skin that isn't permanently affected).

Next question:

Can it be used as a trap? It's a false sensation, which means it's not actually there... But a cheerful warming campfire in dangerously cold area....

I know that you'd need a save for the fire every time you took a negative effect from the cold....

This gives me an idea... Illusions of intense cold and sheltering heat, here and there, in a room... The reality is that most of the room is supernaturally cold, with the only safe path being in an area that is NOT illusion warmed.

[candycorn]

It's a thought, anyway, using illusion to mask thermal dangers.

[Larpus]

Again, I guess it works as long as people fail their saves, also, I guess that the inverse also works, since it says "thermal effects" which to me means both the presence and absence (as in, colder than the normal air) of heat.

[candycorn]

Again, I guess it works as long as people fail their saves, also, I guess that the inverse also works, since it says "thermal effects" which to me means both the presence and absence (as in, colder than the normal air) of heat.

Yeah... I just wanted to ponder the viability of Illusionary comfortable environs, with harsh cold or heat... It'd be interesting to see people failing will saves, and looking around for the invisible enemy dealing fire/cold damage to them.

[Gavinfoxx]

Just make it a Gom Jabbar box. Seriously. A box you stick your hand in that you cannot see the inside of which, where there is pain and it feels like your hand is coming apart.

[candycorn]

Just make it a Gom Jabbar box. Seriously. A box you stick your hand in that you cannot see the inside of which, where there is pain and it feels like your hand is coming apart.

That's what I am trying to do, but by the rules.

[only1doug]

Just make it a Gom Jabbar box. Seriously. A box you stick your hand in that you cannot see the inside of which, where there is pain and it feels like your hand is coming apart.

The Gom Jabar is the poisoned needle on a thimble, the box is just known as a "pain box".

[Zylle]

I suppose it depends on whether, when the spell refers to thermal effects, it's referring to actual sensations of heat, or the illusion of heat (an illusion that would look like heat to infrared vision but cannot cause any physical sensation). The spell wording does seem vague. Interesting question though. Are there any rules in D&D for granting the equivalent of infrared vision?

[candycorn]

I suppose it depends on whether, when the spell refers to thermal effects, it's referring to actual sensations of heat, or the illusion of heat (an illusion that would look like heat to infrared vision but cannot cause any physical sensation). The spell wording does seem vague. Interesting question though. Are there any rules in D&D for granting the equivalent of infrared vision?


A figment spell creates a false sensation.


the operation or function of the senses; perception or awareness of stimuli through the senses.

A thermal sensation would be the perception of heat or cold. Since figments show the same thing to everyone, it would mean that everyone perceives this thermal effect the same. If it's a pool of lava to one person, it's a pool of lava to all people.

However, it's false. It's not really there. Just as you can see a visual illusion, or hear an audial illusion, you can feel a thermal one. You can get the illusion of heat, just fine.

What that illusion will not actually do? Is warm you.

[deuxhero]

If you are a gnome, it can make super real fire :)

[candycorn]

If you are a gnome, it can make super real fire :)

The whole point is that in this case, you don't WANT it to be real.

[Qwertystop]

Thing is, there's a difference between the sensation of heat and the sensation of pain. You could make the smell of burning, and the heat, and make their skin look burned, but it would not actually hurt.

According to Wikipedia (I know its not always the most reliable, but at least listen), there are 4 different types of nerve receptors in the somatosensory system. This is the part of the nervous system covering what is usually referred to as the sense of touch. The two which are relevant to this cover (as far as I can understand with my limited knowledge): potentially damaging stimuli (pain) and innocuous absolute and relative changes in temperature (heat/cold, note the word "innocuous").

In other words, heat and the pain caused thereby are covered by two different types of nerve receptors.


You could, however, use the illusion to make someone think you were burning someone else, and even include screams of pain (the illusion also altering their face). This would be useful for intimidation. However, unless you convinced them that the burning would damage their body painlessly, they would quickly either:
A: Assume they had been so badly burned they could not feel it
B: Realize they were not being burned
or
C: Panic at the sight, heat, and the rest, and not notice the lack of pain, or make it up themselves (sort of like a placebo).

[candycorn]

Thing is, there's a difference between the sensation of heat and the sensation of pain. You could make the smell of burning, and the heat, and make their skin look burned, but it would not actually hurt.

According to Wikipedia (I know its not always the most reliable, but at least listen), there are 4 different types of nerve receptors in the somatosensory system. This is the part of the nervous system covering what is usually referred to as the sense of touch. The two which are relevant to this cover (as far as I can understand with my limited knowledge): potentially damaging stimuli (pain) and innocuous absolute and relative changes in temperature (heat/cold, note the word "innocuous").

In other words, heat and the pain caused thereby are covered by two different types of nerve receptors.


You could, however, use the illusion to make someone think you were burning someone else, and even include screams of pain (the illusion also altering their face). This would be useful for intimidation. However, unless you convinced them that the burning would damage their body painlessly, they would quickly either:
A: Assume they had been so badly burned they could not feel it
B: Realize they were not being burned
or
C: Panic at the sight, heat, and the rest, and not notice the lack of pain, or make it up themselves (sort of like a placebo).

Incorrect. First? Killing catgirls. However, what you're saying is that: one store sold all carbonated beverages, and another store contained only clear drinks.... Therefore the second store must contain all pepsi products, because the first doesn't have Aquafina.

No. The second one only covers INNOCUOUS heat. The first covers heat that is potentially damaging (as in, not innocuous). You jumped from the second only covering innocuous heat, to it just covering "heat"... Without so much as an explanation why you did so.

In other words, not only are you trying to split hairs to WAY too fine a degree (read: pulling out the medical anatomy textbooks to add a bit of 'realism' to the critical hit tables)... You're splitting the wrong hairs when you do.

There is no distinction in D&D between pain and non-pain thermal sensations.

ESPECIALLY when the contradiction is prefaced by you raising doubts to the validity of your source (bold text). If you aren't sure of your source, why should anyone else be?

[Qwertystop]

What I was trying to do was give a bit of support to what I was trying to say, which is that the spell says it can make thermal illusions, but not that it can produce the illusion of pain.

For me, that's what it comes down to: whether or not the illusion of pain falls under the category of thermal sensation. I feel that it doesn't, you feel that it does.

Finally, I was not trying to be misleading. That was what I understood the pages to mean.

[Greyfeld]

What I was trying to do was give a bit of support to what I was trying to say, which is that the spell says it can make thermal illusions, but not that it can produce the illusion of pain.

For me, that's what it comes down to: whether or not the illusion of pain falls under the category of thermal sensation. I feel that it doesn't, you feel that it does.

Finally, I was not trying to be misleading. That was what I understood the pages to mean.

First off, i just want to say that the moment you try to bring RL physics into D&D, all you're doing is complicating the situation. The rules of the game are based on balance, not how things would actually work in real life.

That said, you're being too literal, without thinking things through to their logical conclusion. If you feel heat, your body reacts to the heat in various ways. You're absolutely right that the illusion is creating heat, not pain. But the logical conclusion is that if the body feels heat, your brain will react in such a way to make you believe it is in pain.

Unless the target manages to disbelieve the illusion.

But until/unless that happens, the heat produced will force the body to react accordingly.

[Quietus]

But until/unless that happens, the heat produced will force the body to react accordingly.

I was starting to think about this, before I read your post. Would there be pain.. well, depends on what the player is trying to do. If they're trying to get a bonus to Intimidate, great, sure. Illusionary fire is awesome. If they want to stop people from going into a room by creating an illusionary lava pit, the most they'll get is "People will feel super uncomfortable crazyheat in here", and the players can decide how to handle that.

But ignoring all that. Let's say you set the Major Image to ... let's say replicate a sauna. And the person strapped to a table failed their save. Would they sweat? If so, would that sweat, then cooled down (as sweat does), in a room where it's actually the correct normal temperature, lower one's body temperature as the result of an illusion of heat? Could you quicken someone's dehydration with a permanent image of a sauna?

[candycorn]

I was starting to think about this, before I read your post. Would there be pain.. well, depends on what the player is trying to do. If they're trying to get a bonus to Intimidate, great, sure. Illusionary fire is awesome. If they want to stop people from going into a room by creating an illusionary lava pit, the most they'll get is "People will feel super uncomfortable crazyheat in here", and the players can decide how to handle that.

But ignoring all that. Let's say you set the Major Image to ... let's say replicate a sauna. And the person strapped to a table failed their save. Would they sweat? If so, would that sweat, then cooled down (as sweat does), in a room where it's actually the correct normal temperature, lower one's body temperature as the result of an illusion of heat? Could you quicken someone's dehydration with a permanent image of a sauna?

No. It won't produce any mechanical changes (false sensation) to the body... Though I could see justification for complicating things with that level of nitpickery. What I can't see is WHY.

It will, however, create descriptive changes, and, when it causes something like pain, that can be used with legitimate skill checks to accomplish other results... Especially when such things are in the rules.

The real trick with illusions, if you're trying to hurt someone, isn't to injure them, but to mask something real that can. An illusion of a floor over a pit, for example... Or an illusion of a heat-providing fire in a harshly cold climate.

[Gwendol]

This is what the spell can do: This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you (Silent Image). This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect (Major Image).

This means you can create the illusion of a stove (in the case of the sauna), and the fire burning inside. People in the room will see the stove, see and hear the fire burning, and feel a warmth coming from it (as well as smell the burning wood).

If the caster imagines it hot enough, people in the room might start taking their clothes off, you know, to take a sauna, pour water on it (requires the concentration of the caster to produce the illusionary steam), yet they will never get warm, and therefore will eventually disbelieve the illusion.

So, they might start sweating, but since they never actually get warm, the illusion ultimately fails (before any dehydration takes place). At least, that is my understanding of a figment.

[candycorn]

This is what the spell can do: This spell creates the visual illusion of an object, creature, or force, as visualized by you (Silent Image). This spell functions like silent image, except that sound, smell, and thermal illusions are included in the spell effect (Major Image).

This means you can create the illusion of a stove (in the case of the sauna), and the fire burning inside. People in the room will see the stove, see and hear the fire burning, and feel a warmth coming from it (as well as smell the burning wood).

If the caster imagines it hot enough, people in the room might start taking their clothes off, you know, to take a sauna, pour water on it (requires the concentration of the caster to produce the illusionary steam), yet they will never get warm, and therefore will eventually disbelieve the illusion.

So, they might start sweating, but since they never actually get warm, the illusion ultimately fails (before any dehydration takes place). At least, that is my understanding of a figment.

There are other explanations for why they're not getting warm. There are creatures in the 3.x universe that sap heat... spells that produce similar effects. I'd agree that they get periodic saves, and eventually a 20 would be rolled... But it's never gonna be automatic.

In addition, you can create nonsensical things. Let's say we have a dark room. I imagine a rabbit that's as hot as molten lava. Great. If the subject sees that rabbit, he'd likely automatically disbelieve it. After all, that's pretty much proof it's fake. But if he doesn't, he has to save vs interaction with the heat. And if the room's dark? There's no observation to disbelieve... All you feel is oppressive heat.

[Gwendol]

Yes... but you don't get warm. Just confused... :-)

[candycorn]

Yes... but you don't get warm. Just confused... :-)

Which is a great justification for a disbelief saving throw.

[Karoht]

There's a reason I limited it to a torture tool.Lots of possibilities here. Lock the subject in a sauna for several days. Or a freezer. Their core body temperature won't drop or raise so they won't end up hypothermic or with heat stroke, but man will that ever be an annoyance.

Or take what looks like a red hot iron to the subject's back. If they don't/can't see the lack of burns, they won't disbelieve. Blindfold for good measure.
Add a few sound effects such as sizzling flesh when the iron touches the skin.
Beyond the lack of lasting pain after the burn is experienced, it is still fairly effective for inducing short bursts of pain.

[AugustNights]

Torture without actual heat damage?
As in a non-damaging torture that convinces the target that there is fire, the smell of burning flesh, and them being damaged by it?
Can it be done with magic?
It seems believable enough without it. (http://www.movieweb.com/dvd/DVDxyFELegXEHI/thomas-jane-interrogation)
Conscious creatures are really bad at assessing how bad their own wounds are, unless they have a really high knowledge of medical anatomy and have some time to examine them in tranquility.
Torture seems to be a form of intimidation, both IRL and according to BoVD.
Intimidation seems to be about convincing someone that something bad is or will happen, even if it is or will not. A fear inducing bluff if you would. Psychological warfare.
If I were DMing, and this tactic was used I would most likely award the Intimidation check an appropriate bonus similar to tools, and maybe a little extra for the magic aspect of the illusion.
I would also question the character's alignment, ethical stance, and all that rot.

[faceroll]

Yeah, but there is no damage. That means you can only threaten the subject with torture, not subject them to torture. Vastly different things. At most I'd give a bonus to intimidate rolls.

The torture rules are basically modified intimidate checks that do HP damage. See FC2.

[ericgrau]

I'd treat it as 0 to 120 degrees or so. It doesn't work exactly that way, but it gives you a basic idea of what non-damaging heat/cold illusion would be like. The warmth above your lava illusion that no one dares to touch, etc.

Direct interaction with most illusions only tends to prove that they're false and so tends to break the illusion without needing any save.