Advice Needed: How Would an Incarnum/Binder/Shadowcaster Campaign Work?

[wayfare]

Hey all:

I'm interested in running a campaign where the only heavily magic using classes would be Binders, Incarnum users, and Shadowcasters. No full casters would exist, and truenaming would get folded into the Bard to replace spellcasting.

Paladins and Rangers would probably get maneuver progression.

Mages, Clerics, and any other arcane or divine magic user is out.

Any ideas as to how I can pull this off?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Sounds similar to the homebrew campaign I'm making right now, except that I do have (nerfed) casters.

You will have difficulty finding proper healing without item backup (and if you're taking the ban-bat to full casters, I'm assuming you're also hitting use-activated magic items like wands with them), and more importantly, you'll have trouble finding negative status effect removal.

I'd probably throw ToB into the mix as well, since that runs along the same lines you are looking for.

[Fouredged Sword]

The dwarves would have access to use items, as they have Iron soul forgemasters who can make stuff. Still they are likely to be rare. I would tweak the crafting system to allow more people to be able to make stuff like wands and potions.

[gbprime]

You will have difficulty finding proper healing without item backup (and if you're taking the ban-bat to full casters, I'm assuming you're also hitting use-activated magic items like wands with them), and more importantly, you'll have trouble finding negative status effect removal.

Seconded. In-combat healing and fighting monsters that drain levels or damage stats becomes very difficult in such a setting. You might consider making a custom Vestige or two to fulfill a healing function or add fast-healing Incarnum stuff.


The dwarves would have access to use items, as they have Iron soul forgemasters who can make stuff. Still they are likely to be rare. I would tweak the crafting system to allow more people to be able to make stuff like wands and potions.

Warlocks. Imbue Item becomes the way to make most magical items.

[Fouredged Sword]

Bards would be able to heal somewhat well actualy. Truenameing isn't a bad system for healing at low levels. It would take serious work though. I would make an ability and condition healing truenameing ability.

In fact I would make some way for any given magic system to heal ability damage, drain, and status conditions that don't go away on thier own. Without that some things like wights just get irritateing.

[Big Fau]

Seconded. In-combat healing and fighting monsters that drain levels or damage stats becomes very difficult in such a setting. You might consider making a custom Vestige or two to fulfill a healing function or add fast-healing Incarnum stuff.


Beur (SIC) and the Lifebond Vestments should help considerably. The former moreso than the latter. Crusader with the Lifebond Vestment soulmeld is actually very good at healing.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Bards would be able to heal somewhat well actualy. Truenameing isn't a bad system for healing at low levels. It would take serious work though. I would make an ability and condition healing truenameing ability. They can do so... once. Then they start getting scaling DC bumps for no particular reason.

Truenamers are about as good at healing as they are anything else... it starts off as 'not very' and rapidly slides downhill from there unless you've got insane skill-stacking going on.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Artificers can make most magic items.... (assuming you don't count them as full casters and thus are banned)

And there are a type of Dward (Midgard Dwarfs?) in frostburn which make a lot of magic items without pre-requisites, use them to have the "must find the master smith who lives in a secluded mountain top" quest-line if they want some specific item....

[gbprime]

Beur (SIC) and the Lifebond Vestments should help considerably. The former moreso than the latter. Crusader with the Lifebond Vestment soulmeld is actually very good at healing.

Buer is a nice start, but she's a 4th level Vestige that grants a Cure Light Wounds once every 5 rounds. You can't get her before 5th level. For serious combat healing, that's not enough hit points and it's not fast enough. Hence my suggestion for a custom Vestige or two.

[Big Fau]

Buer is a nice start, but she's a 4th level Vestige that grants a Cure Light Wounds once every 5 rounds. You can't get her before 5th level. For serious combat healing, that's not enough hit points and it's not fast enough. Hence my suggestion for a custom Vestige or two.

Actually, she's a Wand of Lesser Vigor with infinite charges. You just have a long cooldown time (X rounds, where X=Total damage the party has taken).

Great for out of combat, not so much for in-combat.

[gbprime]

Actually, she's a Wand of Lesser Vigor with infinite charges. You just have a long cooldown time (X rounds, where X=Total damage the party has taken).

Great for out of combat, not so much for in-combat.

Not quite. You get fast healing for yourself, but not for others. On other people, you can cure a single point of damage as a standard action, or do 1d8 + Binder Level (max 10) as a full round action once every 5 rounds.

So the Binder him/herself is covered, and they can keep an entire low level army from dying from their wounds, but they cannot effectively heal their companions in combat.

[peacenlove]

Shadowcaster gets Unveil (Heal minus hit point healing plus removes other effects) so after 11th level status effect removal shouldn't be a problem. Give him some mysteries at low levels that heal (Isfreak has homebrewed some in this forum, and Descent of shadows has a superior resurrection as a 9th level mystery)

[Fouredged Sword]

I think combat healing is something that can be done without. There are enough sorces of out of combat HP healing and in combat pickmeups that combat is deadly, but not suicide.

It is the ability damage, drain, curse, disease, negitive level, and other odd status effects that can turn nasty without treatment that worry me on a playability end.

Being turned to stone by a basalisk is harsh enough when break curse can turn you back to normal. Now picture if the only sorce of break curse is scrolls crafted by warlocks.

If it happens unexpectedly in normal games you wait a day and the cleric memorises the correct spell to fix it. In a no spellcaster game you are likely to have to get drug back to town and wait a few days while a hired warlock crafts the scroll.

This would make some effects over the top anoying.

Though I agree that truenamer needs a fix. Consider removing the rules preventing them from having more than one instance of an ability running at once and then reset the DC counter every encounter rather than every day (or after 1 whole min of silent meditation for the truespeaker).

[Big Fau]

Not quite. You get fast healing for yourself, but not for others. On other people, you can cure a single point of damage as a standard action,

That's what I said. Effectively a Wand of Lesser Vigor with a really long recharge time. You use it out of combat to heal everyone up to full, and only use the CLW option during combat in extreme emergencies.

[awa]

i think it could work you might need to do some homebrew for truenammers as i understad they work very badly.

personaly in a game like that if i were the dm i would not use any monsters that kill you on a failed save unless their was a way around it and they had the opportunity and knowladge to use it like say a meduse that they know they are going to be fighting and know they can close their eyes

[Coidzor]

Shadowcasters would need to be bumped up so they weren't so pitiful, but otherwise it seems ok.

Well, aside from nerfing the bard so heavily.

Seriously. No one deserves that.

Sublime Way Ranger (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19519074/Sublime_Way_Variant_Ranger)exists along with the Falling Star school. As for making a ToB Paladin (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=158517), you probably can just use the Crusader instead.


Seconded. In-combat healing and fighting monsters that drain levels or damage stats becomes very difficult in such a setting. You might consider making a custom Vestige or two to fulfill a healing function or add fast-healing Incarnum stuff.

Indeed, such creatures do have an effective CR increase due to their threat representing a much more significant chunk of party resources to undo. If it can be undone at all.

[Tvtyrant]

I approve of this campaign! For the Shadowcaster you could give them a shadow familiar like the Hexblades; it makes more sense and gives them a boost.

[gbprime]

That's what I said. Effectively a Wand of Lesser Vigor with a really long recharge time. You use it out of combat to heal everyone up to full, and only use the CLW option during combat in extreme emergencies.

The idea of a 7th level PC busting out a cure light wounds in an "extreme emergency" is not only an oxymoron, but it's also useless. If the main tank of the party is sucking down 20 to 30 points of damage a round, spending an action to heal 1d8+7 is a complete waste of an action. A FULL ROUND action none the less.

Even Cure Critical is dubious in that example, as 4d8+7 is barely keeping up with that pounding. Even blowing a feat on Augment only cranks that action up by another 8 points, but at least it's more than 1 round of damage.

No, in-combat healing takes either total devotion, or a Heal spell. But you'll have neither of those without some additional house rules like new vestiges, paths, or melds.

[Zaq]

Add in psionics, and you'll have the last major campaign I DMed. (The rule was "no arcane or divine," actually. I eventually said that the Healer wasn't divine but instead was raw manipulation of positive energy, so the party could buy Healing Belts.) It worked reasonably well.

[Psyren]

I would throw in Warlock/DFA, both as a source of item creation and as another source of low-mid tier "casting."

And PF Soulknife too, maybe with some Diamond Mind/Tiger Claw stuff.

And Factotum, just 'cause.

This could be neat :smallsmile:

[begooler]

Sorry if I'm repeating ideas, I read about half of this thread...

I want to make a setting with similar magic next time I start a new campaign. I was also going to have some psionics. In my mind, the campaign would be set in a time before arcane and divine magic. (And binders would summon the power of emerging deities rather than dead ones.)

I would introduce incantations to make up for some of the lack of spellcasting. Suddenly, some of the old spells everyone loves are treasure! A book with incantations for healing and removing status afflictions would be extremely helpful. (And if you do end up homebrewing incantations... why not post them in the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192661)I started a while back...)

For the bards, a truenamer FIX would be a good way to go. Truenamer bard would be a great class to homebrew if someone hasn't done it yet.

[Curious]

Sorry if I'm repeating ideas, I read about half of this thread...

I want to make a setting with similar magic next time I start a new campaign. I was also going to have some psionics. In my mind, the campaign would be set in a time before arcane and divine magic. (And binders would summon the power of emerging deities rather than dead ones.)

I would introduce incantations to make up for some of the lack of spellcasting. Suddenly, some of the old spells everyone loves are treasure! A book with incantations for healing and removing status afflictions would be extremely helpful. (And if you do end up homebrewing incantations... why not post them in the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192661)I started a while back...)

For the bards, a truenamer FIX would be a good way to go. Truenamer bard would be a great class to homebrew if someone hasn't done it yet.

Actually, that sounds really cool, running with the 'words as magic' theme the Bard already has. Would totally play it.

[TurtleKing]

Is this going to end up as a pbp game? Would so play it. Not sure of where to begin. Incarnum, Psionics, ToM, ... I don't know. I like it.

[Fizban]

So, is it that Binders/Shadowcasters/Incarnum/Bards are are the only casters period, or that you're just getting rid of the full casters. What about Duskblades and Artificers? Prestige classes like Suel Arcanamach? Trapsmith with it's hugely altered spell levels but low progression? What about the NPC Adept? If you mean absolutely no spells other than Bards and Shadowcasters then that will seriously limit the magic options in the campaign, but if there's Adepts and some prestige stuff available I think you can still have the gameworld mostly the same. I'd actually like to see the usual caster and gimmick builds worked off Adept actually, that'd be interesting.

I think you'll find that Bards can make a heck of a lot of items. They can do all the standard enhancement bonuses and healing no problem. Some weapon enhancements (like most energies) might be a problem, but mostly you'll just lose items that rely on unique wizard/cleric spells, and those that require spells above 6th level. Note that with Arcane Disciple you can get a number of spells back via domains as well, though items based on spells only accessible through that combo would be extremely rare. Don't forget about the Adept NPC class (unless you ban it): it has a number of cleric and wizard spells that the Bard doesn't and would fill in some more items.

For combat survival without burst healing, temporary hit points would become the big new thing. Adepts still have Aid on their list, so one of my favorite items, the Amulet of Tears, would be a new go-to. If you've got enough temporary hit points to last you through the turns it takes to bring down the enemy, you don't even need to worry about healing up after (I've heard of some groups that only use Aid spells and cure light wands for what's left). Without the unwritten plan of having a cleric around to keep you alive in combat, I'd expect people to be a lot more defensive as well (and I love anything that gets them to not rely on in-combat action wasting).

For healing in the campaign in general, it's been recently brought to my attention that Healing Devotion heals a ton of hit points per day when you have Turn Undead to fuel it. Oddly enough, without Clerics around, Paladins with Healing Devotion would be the best general healers. Tons of hp/day, Remove Disease SLA, and Lesser Restoration at 1st level on their list.

[wayfare]

Thanks for all the responses! To answer a few questions;

1) I am planning on replacing all arcane and divine magic. The tier 1, 2, and 3 casting classes will be eliminated. I'm trying to come up with a fix to allow players to play Paladins and Rangers...Maybe even Hexblades and Duskblades, but I'm not exactly certain how to work past their magic.

A) Since I am axing the Druid, all his nifty class features get folded into the ranger. The Ranger gets a full strength animal companion, and gets his choice of Wildshape or a new feature I am calling:
Target Bonus
The ranger focuses his attacks upon a single enemy, pursuing his foe at all cost
Effect: Once per round, as a swift action, the ranger can declare a single enemy he can see his target. While engaging his target, the ranger gains a +2 bonus to bluff, listen, sense motive, spot and survival checks made against that foe. He also gains a +2 bonus to attacks rolls against that foe and inflicts an additional 1d6 points of damage while fighting that foe.
A target bonus can be maintained indefinitely, but while it is active the Ranger suffers a -2 penalty to skill rolls and attack rolls not involving his target.
Special: This feature replaces Favored Enemy.

B) The paladin gets similar treatment, earning full access to turning, more lay on hand healing (as well as the ability to heal status ailments), and better smite options (adding status to smite, more uses of smite per day).

C) As noted above, I am working on folding Truenaming into Bards. I have a thread in the Homebrew section about a modified version of truenaming I am trying to develop.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thanks for all the responses! To answer a few questions;

1) I am planning on replacing all arcane and divine magic. The tier 1, 2, and 3 casting classes will be eliminated. I'm trying to come up with a fix to allow players to play Paladins and Rangers...Maybe even Hexblades and Duskblades, but I'm not exactly certain how to work past their magic.

A) Since I am axing the Druid, all his nifty class features get folded into the ranger. The Ranger gets a full strength animal companion, and gets his choice of Wildshape or a new feature I am calling:
Target Bonus
The ranger focuses his attacks upon a single enemy, pursuing his foe at all cost
Effect: Once per round, as a swift action, the ranger can declare a single enemy he can see his target. While engaging his target, the ranger gains a +2 bonus to bluff, listen, sense motive, spot and survival checks made against that foe. He also gains a +2 bonus to attacks rolls against that foe and inflicts an additional 1d6 points of damage while fighting that foe.
A target bonus can be maintained indefinitely, but while it is active the Ranger suffers a -2 penalty to skill rolls and attack rolls not involving his target.
Special: This feature replaces Favored Enemy.

B) The paladin gets similar treatment, earning full access to turning, more lay on hand healing (as well as the ability to heal status ailments), and better smite options (adding status to smite, more uses of smite per day).

C) As noted above, I am working on folding Truenaming into Bards. I have a thread in the Homebrew section about a modified version of truenaming I am trying to develop.

Why kill Tier 3 classes? I think that's really where you should be aiming at.

Take a look at my Homebrew Campaign Setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207273) for some ideas.

[MukkTB]

It seems pretty simple. If you are limiting magic the player characters have access to then you limit the magic in the environment and possessed by the hostile NPCs.

If the PCs get infected by a disease use a long gestation period of days or weeks and then have the disease be a really horrible experience (that doesn't effect the combat they got it in). If you're going for more realism by limiting magic you might as well follow that by having diseases be just as awful as they would be to a real medival culture.

If poison is involved increase the time from being poisoned to suffering the effects of the poison. Let the player know they've been poisoned and give them time to do something about it. "I don't want to suck out the venom. You suck out your own venom!"

If there aren't easy way to fix stat debuffs then don't throw a ton of stat debuffs at the characters. A -1 penalty that is next to impossible to cure has a ton more impact than a -15 penalty that a spellcaster could fix in a minute with the right spells memorized.

Imagine this. A villian cuts off a PCs hand giving him - 3 dex then runs off cackling. With magic its a quick fix to get a magic use to replace, regrow, or fix the hand. Without magic or with very little magic that character has been changed forever. He gets a hook. He hunts the villian down. He raises his hook in the air so the sunlight glints off it and says "Remember me?" giving the villain a moment of realization and terror before the end.

It can be satisfying to run with very little magic. Consequences feel more tightly tied into actions. I guess the only other point I should make is that most of the villians should be human or mundane. If they are magic it should be possible to beat them without magic. Think the Odessey. Think Jason and the Argonauts.

Or think Lord of the Rings.

IDK I wish I was better at conveying ideas than I am. You can make a low magic campaign fun. You could make a no magic campaign fun. You just have to think about the implications, decide how this affects the tone and the themes of your world, and then adjust the challenges the players face to compensate for them having fewer tools to deal with them.

[Big Fau]

If they are magic it should be possible to beat them without magic. Think the Odessey. Think Jason and the Argonauts.


Ok, neither of those are a good example of low/no magic. In fact, it's an example of high magic and overly active deities. Seriously.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Go ahead and play the Metal Gear series. That might give you some ideas.

[wayfare]

Why kill Tier 3 classes? I think that's really where you should be aiming at.

Take a look at my Homebrew Campaign Setting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=207273) for some ideas.

I'm running a Tier 3 centered campaign right now, and i agree that its the place to be. However, I was just choosing these classes as I am interested in running a game without Vancian Magic of any sort -- any class that relies on that kind of magic would be off limits.

[Fizban]

I don't see what the problem is with Paladins, Rangers, and Hexblades. They aren't tier 3, so according to your broad rule they're unchanged. Adepts also make the cut, so between them and Bards you can have the setting and magic items stay mostly the same, except cutting out any long range teleporting or planar travel that isn't Shadocaster, and any other items based on 5th level or higher spells since the Adept and Bard lists are pretty short at those levels.

Now, if you're giving Rangers free wildshape and full animal companions then you probably will need to do some fixing-of the other "martial caster" classes that will now be horribly outclassed, even with their "spellcasting."

Now, if what you mean is no vancian casters period, that's a completely different thing than referencing the tier system.

[wayfare]

I don't see what the problem is with Paladins, Rangers, and Hexblades. They aren't tier 3, so according to your broad rule they're unchanged. Adepts also make the cut, so between them and Bards you can have the setting and magic items stay mostly the same, except cutting out any long range teleporting or planar travel that isn't Shadocaster, and any other items based on 5th level or higher spells since the Adept and Bard lists are pretty short at those levels.

Now, if you're giving Rangers free wildshape and full animal companions then you probably will need to do some fixing-of the other "martial caster" classes that will now be horribly outclassed, even with their "spellcasting."

Now, if what you mean is no vancian casters period, that's a completely different thing than referencing the tier system.

I mentioned the tier 3 classes to include them in the things that would be banned in this setting. But yeah, I'm basically talking about a setting without any kind of Vancian casting.

[Fouredged Sword]

I would think an ardent or egoist would be the go to for healing then. Touch of healing is a decent power that scales well with levels (and is easy to cheeze into healing lots per pp)

Psionic restoration takes care of all the healing pf ability damage and such.

As long as psionics are in the game, much of what magic can do still exists.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm running a Tier 3 centered campaign right now, and i agree that its the place to be. However, I was just choosing these classes as I am interested in running a game without Vancian Magic of any sort -- any class that relies on that kind of magic would be off limits.

Did you take a look at the Arcanist, Wylder, and Bard homebrew classes which are invocation-based, and the Priest which uses the Shadowcaster casting system?