Help please with an Artificer build

[Legendairy]

Hey all,

Thank you in advance! I am looking for a full build help and I will lay down some of the ground rules.
1. No flaws
2. Not using action points (don't pick feats based on AP improvement)
3. Weapon finess is a free feat to anyone wanting to use dex instead of str
4. No pathfinder stuff

Ok now my wants and prefs.
I rolled 18 18 17 14 14 14
Was thinking something like
Str 14
Dex 18
Con 14
Int 18
Wis 14
Cha 17

Also thinking human for the race. Now the play style I have optimized my builds before but I don't want the infinite loop stuff I don't mind the blastifer max outs either I do want the artisan feats, I would like to see some various options like the construct maker type and the wand weilder type. I just don't know what I want I would rather do damage then buff but I would like the buffing option. Basically any book is available except the dragon mags and the campaign will be played in FR. I would like to see a viable two wand wielding build as well. I know I'm asking for a lot that's why I came to you guys I generally resort to these forums for all my needs. With all that I thank you for your patience and time. Sorry for any grammatical errors I'm on my phone and auto correct is lame. Would like to see builds from 1-20 again thank you all in advance.

[0Megabyte]

There's a problem in your parameters:

That is, Artificers are designed with action points in mind. Some of their class features, and even more of their feats, require them!

For example: Using certain infusions as round-long actions instead of ten minutes or a minute or whatnot requires the use of action points.

[Legendairy]

I know but for sake of argument no feats that would help action points or action surge. I can get around alot of the stuff just need some build ideas.

[Angry Bob]

You can break the game just fine without action points.

Before you can build wands, use personal weapon augmentation on either a crossbow or a melee weapon, up to you. Take some knowledge ranks so you can make checks and know what kind of bane to apply.

Grab item creation cost reducers early on.

Consider asking your DM to switch the levels at which you get craft wand and metamagic spell trigger, since it's possible it's a typo and it looks cleaner that way. My opinion of course, but worth bringing up.

You'll need two-weapon fighting for dual wand wielder, so set aside a slot for that. Your set in stone bonus feats cover most of your bases(wondrous items, wands, scrolls, homunculi), so unless you really want some exotic crafting capabilities, your artificer bonus feats should be metamagic feats or extraordinary/legendary artisan. Don't take exceptional artisan, since it's rare in my experience for DMs to give a specific number of days of downtime rather than as much as you need. More importantly, exceptional artisan will lower the number of UMD checks you get to make make for item creation, increasing your chances of failure.

Specific metamagic feats are up to you: What do you intend to apply your metamagic power towards? If battlefield control, widen, quicken, or extend. If blasting, fell drain, empower, twin, quicken, energy admixture. Ask your DM whether you'll be able to use one at a time or as many as you can spend charges on. If the former, keep in mind the metamagic item infusion, which adds a metamagic effect to a spell trigger item for the duration(ECS 113).

[Legendairy]

Thank you. Yeah I will have homunculi in a portable hole crafting things, the multi meta to wands can seriously break a game so it would be limited just to reduce dm nerd-raging on me, where is the fell drain meta located? I will more than likely be a blaster but burn 2 feats on the artisan ones and another on twf other then metas and this three what other feats would be good I was thinking at a later level gt craft construct and have some golem back up? Or should I grab more cost reducing feats and if so which ones and where are they?

[Angry Bob]

Another reducer is the Player's Guide to Faerun Pg 41, Magical artisan, which reduces the cost of a single type of creation feat by another 25%.

Fell Drain is either Libris Mortis or Heroes of Horror

I have to run now, I'll be back in maybe two hours with more stuff.

[Legendairy]

Awesome thank you so much. Should be fun regardless i have enough fluff type stuff that the other players will enjoy it so hopefully the DM will not be a complete nay-sayer. Any more tips hints and advice will be greatly appriciated. I have never played an Artificer but have always thought they were amazing.

[Madcrafter]

Artificer is one awesome class. Hopefully you have perused the players guide: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5929.0

I am playing a mainly blastificer in my current campaign. Metamagic is where you will want to focus probably for feats. Might I suggest something along the lines of:

H- Legendary Artisan
1- Exceptional Artisan
1A- Scribe Scroll
2A- Brew Potion
3- Fell Drain (start with this since you can still only use it on scrolls)
3A- Craft Wondrous Item
4A- Twin Spell
5A- Craft Magic A&A
6- TWF
7A- Craft Wand
8A- Dual Wand Wielder
9- Quicken Spell or Wand Mastery
11- free
12A- Craft Staff
12A- more free
13 - even more free
etc.
Fill up the free slots with your choice of Energy Sub/Admix (sonic) for blasting, Extend/Persist/Craft Schema for buffing, Craft Construct for minions etc. Shame you aren't using action points, because then the Wand Surge feat is your friend. So is an item of continuous Unfettered Heroism (go high powered games). Also once you get high enough level and wealth, Extra Rings is a great feat.

I would recommend staying Artificer 20, since there aren't that many prestige classes that are worth it for them. Maybe a refluffed Cannith Wand Adept if you want the dual wandage.

As for strategy, as Bob said, bane crossbow until you get to around level 7, then start packing a wand of scorching ray (with two rays) and start ripping stuff a new one. Maybe carry a wand of MM as backup, and whichever other ones you find useful. Once you can get some reliable staves, start using those when you need the more powerful spells.

[Metahuman1]

Little trick.

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870890/Updated_Nanobots_Conquer_D38;D_%28AC,_Attack,_and_ Skill_Records%29

I'm not saying actually MAKE 100 of the darn things, but making five or ten to jack up attack and AC too a reasonably high level, and too really help key skill checks.

[Angry Bob]

Another thing to keep in mind is this: "Artificers can't just do anything. They can do everything."

Your basic artificer covers all of the important stuff with his free item creation feats and the fact that he has access to every spell, one way or another. A lot of the advice you've been getting on the blastificer works just as well if you want to do debuffing or battlefield control, like quicken and dual wands. You can buff your party even if you don't try to specialize in that, by building them items(just make sure they pay for the gold and XP), and with spell storing item, you can pretty much cast all of the important utility spells on a whim.

If you can make custom magic items, you can do even more.

[Madcrafter]

Yea, Spell Storing Item, Metamagic Spell Trigger/Completion, Lesser Personal Weapon Augmentation and Concurrent Infusions are pretty much the best infusions out there, and the only ones you probably care to use consistently. Especially that first one. I don't think I've really ever used any others, except maybe Halt Construct and the repair line, though they are situational for machines.

Having access to every spell in the game, and doubling the party's WBL is what makes you great. Even without doing much, you still will contribute tremendously, and with much optimization, you can break the system over your knee.

[Legendairy]

Yeah I am digging the concept, yeah action points would be great but our dm pretty much hates the ECS I just managed to talk him into an artificer. As far as the build help you all have been amazing and I can't thank you enough. If anything else at all comes to mind please share.

[NecroRick]

Consider asking your DM to switch the levels at which you get craft wand and metamagic spell trigger, since it's possible it's a typo and it looks cleaner that way. My opinion of course, but worth bringing up.


In fact it *is* a typo, and is corrected in the Errata.

Make wands at level 6, meta them at level 7.

Of course, you can use the infusion to meta them at level 5, which is better than the class feature (doesn't use extra charges).

If you want to slap lots of meta on, there is also the metamagic wand-grip, which basically duplicates the class feature (e.g. uses extra charges).

Note also that you can make a wand with metamagic built in. So you could energy substitution the base spell, or extend the base spell.

Check (in advance) with your DM whether you can use a metamamgic rod to modify a spell cast from a wand....

Now you have 5 sources of metamagic on the wand:
Baked-in when you make it
Your class feature
Your lvl 3 infusion
Wand trigger
Rod

Use the rod for empowering or maximising. Use the infusion for a big hefty metamagic (at least +3), use the other three (all of which either use extra charges or make the wand more expensive) for smaller metamagics.

----

Fell Drain (p27 book of bad latin) is interesting. At +2 it is probably too expensive (too little bang for your buck) for regular use as spending extra charges. But it is also too small to really justify using the infusion on.

My suggested solution? Go the Easy Metamagic (it's a Dragon Mag Feat) route. Now Fell Drain costs 1, and that is easily worthwhile slapping on via a metamagic wand grip (or whatever).

For the spells to look at, I recommend ones that auto-hit. Of course there is Magic Missile, but your DM probably isn't going to let you knock three levels off a single target, which is where it really shines.

Alternatives to Magic Missile include Kelgore's Grave Mist (a favourite in these parts) and the less popular Kelgore's Firebolt. For your purposes Kelgore's Firebolt is probably better than Scorching Ray believe it or not. The reason? Because Kelgore's Firebolt (by my reading of it anyway) can be chained, and Scorching Ray can't. It also nicely fits just about exactly the level which you want to be putting stuff onto wands. A level 5 firebolt wand is going to be enormously much cheaper than a level 11 scorching ray wand.

So: cheaper and does more damage, *and* works better with Fell Drain. There's your unholy triumvirate right there :D

---

Now, with all these negative levels floating around, you might decide to go the necro route. After all, as soon as you can make wands you can make a wand of animate dead...

IF you do so, check the last link in my sig for a ring that will help a lot!

Because you have to 'bake in' the material cost when you make the wand, you might actually want to make two wands, one for say 1st or 2nd level undead (adds 1250 or 2500 to the final cost respectively (NB: _after_ cost reducers (though your DM might be super nice (or oblivious) and let you include it in the _base_ cost ( = win )))

For the other wand, shove a higher limit on it. Level 8 = 400 gp worth of onyx, adds 10,000gp to the final cost of the wand (assuming 50 charges, you may want to make one with fewer charges on the theory that the big nasty monsters will die less often).

[NecroRick]

Another thing to keep in mind is this: "Artificers can't just do anything. They can do everything."


Well... that's mostly true. They can't emulate feats for instance.

[vampire2948]

Well... that's mostly true. They can't emulate feats for instance.

That's why you play a Psionic Artificer [Magic of Eberron], and take an item of Psionic Reformation. Bam! Your feats reshuffle as you require.

[Legendairy]

I think I'll stay away from raising dead as it is inherently evil. But everything else seems to be ok except using dragon mag material. Still fell drain seems worth it.

[Madcrafter]

That's why you play a Psionic Artificer [Magic of Eberron], and take an item of Psionic Reformation. Bam! Your feats reshuffle as you require.

For many situations, a wand of heroics will work pretty well too.

I disagree with the choice to use Kelgor's Firebolt instead of scorching ray. While it is 6750 gold cheaper than a CL7 scorching ray wand, it deals only 5d6 instead of 2*4d6, and has a save for half damage. It also can only hit one target instead of two, and because of the save, I don't think its worth chaining, especially with the fell drain (unless you really want that to be what you are focusing on, in which case you might just want to get a wand of sonic snap or first level sonic orb spell if everything you fight has SR). I guess it has medium range going for it, but that't not enough to impress me.

[mint]

I have some advice on not incurring the wrath of your DM.
I would skip fell drain. You're DM is wary of your class to begin with. Though maybe not for the reason he should be if he just dislikes ECS.
He should be wary because he has given you access to the full suite of magic items in 3.5. I mean, the hell.
Fell drain is both really good and adds an annoying amount of bookkeeping with all the negative levels flying around.
3.5 energy substitution doesn't let you go sonic. So check with the DM :3
The Artificer has more potential than anything else in 3.5 to become a bookkeeping cluster****.
Keep it simple, nuke from orbit.

[Legendairy]

The plus side is the dm changes, I am actually one of the DM's. We have three and the other is completely on board and knows the potential I bring to the table as an optimizer(generally i ToB or Cleric it) its too easy these days. The third however is just a complete tool in alot of situations i.e. he doesnt like his players to use summoning spells because they can destroy the balance he has set. He wants his games to run tooooo linear at times like the big bads not making checks or auto success when it comes to saves. I'll admit i do the same things but very very rarely and only to improve the players experience. The second DM is very knowledgable and very capable of builds and such (hes the uber dork 45 and lives with his mom and has been playing D&D since the first editions.) So he knows the rules and feats and has one heck of a memory can tell page numbers and books with a little reflection of just about anything. So its mainly just one and im not worried about fell drain with him and since ill be running the most (most experienced DM and players choice) i dont really care too much, I just dont want to make enemies of my players with too much power.

I love the artificer concept especially from Lantan it fits and i will be a player at times (so noone has the infamous DM burn out phase) so it needs to be feasable. The build option up in the posts is great except for misplacing when you would gain feats at the end of the build, thats no big deal tho easy fix. I am thinking about getting craft construct in there too (at a later level ofcourse) and be mashin with a golem or two. You have all been extremely helpful and have given me a lot to consider. I would like to keep this thread up for as long as possible to help not only me but others who dig Artificers. So again keep the tips coming and builds its great to see!

[Redshirt Army]

You'll want the Rapid Infusion feat, which lets you use one infusion per day as a full-round action without using up an Action Point.

[Madcrafter]

You'll want the Rapid Infusion feat, which lets you use one infusion per day as a full-round action without using up an Action Point.

Depends on how the replacement for action points is working. It was mentioned that there might be a workaround to not having them, in which case if infusions can be quickened some other way it might not be needed. It isn't usually that useful a feat IMHO, but if there is no other way of quickening your infusions then its a good idea.

I misplaced the feat levels because my group plays with the PF get a feat every odd level instead, and I copy pasted that from my artificer build and changed it to fit more with what you were looking for.

[Legendairy]

Ahh ok that makes sense then. Still a bit off for me but yeah not much and still very effective. As far as infusions taking some time I will either end up taking the feat or have to sit with the other 2 DM's about this character specifically getting action points just for that reason. Either way I dont think its NEEDED with all the other wand-meta shenanigans, yes it would be great I just don't know if they will go for it.

[mint]

Oh, well then:


Pillage the hybrid spell lists for early access to spells you can put on a wand. Lesser restoration from the paladin list for example.
Tesselated Armor from AEG. It's a +2 full plate that counts as medium armor and its command word activated.
Infinite scrollcase, room for a lot of scrolls and you can retrieve the the specific one you desire as part of a move action. MoE.
A bandoleer stores items up to the size of daggers and lets you quick draw them. Your wands are quite small. I think there are a few different sources for them. I forget :3
Swift Infusion from MoE, swift infusion without action point, opens up for Greater Healing armor enhancement infusion clutch heals and other shenanigans.
Rod of Many Wands, shoot three wands as a full-turn action. Consumes extra charges. Slightly less efficient than twinned.


Metamagic on magic items is explored territory so it should be easy to find what you want damage wise.
If wealth is predictable in your campaign, make a budget. Find your sustainable burn level and estimate how much you can nova.
Decide how much you want to spend on scrolls for those "just as planned" moments when you have the right scroll at the right time.
And maybe don't be afraid to spend XP. Since you are lower level, you will earn faster.

[Legendairy]

Using XP won't be an issue as the party is donating all non-essential magical items to me to either have me create them more specific things or to keep up the artillery. Our group consists of a cleric a cleric/illusionist a wizard and a rogue/ranger with the exception of the ranger we try to keep our distance and blast. Make one of the clerics our heal bot and the other our buffer and the wizard and i go to town. poor poor rogue/ranger, I guess since he still gets some a fair share in the loot that he can't complain too much.

[Angry Bob]

If you have access to Dungeonscape, see if you can draw from the trapsmith's spell list. It gets a lot of spells much earlier than most classes by virtue of being a prestige class, but for you, this means you get a box of cool spells many levels before you should have any right to. Their list is on page 54.

[Legendairy]

I will have to see, that list is pretty awesome Stone Skin second level eh?

Probably not, cause i don't think I would allow it.

[Madcrafter]

The Runescarred Berserker also has a really good (or bad depending on your view) spell list you can draw from.

+1 to the tesselated armour and easy access items (my artificer wears Tesselated mithral full plate).

Never was a fan of the rod of many wands though.

[Legendairy]

Nice, sounds awesome actually it has a lot of fluff factor as well. Wouldn't that make it +3 full plate acts as light due to mithral and does hypnotic pattern 1/day or are you saying take it down to a +1? I will have to see what I'm going to do about adding to my infusion list dm is making it hard to gain spells even tho it should just take a bit of time some checks and maybe some gold but meh I think if he becomes lame I will just start going OP blastificer to spite him.

[Madcrafter]

Artificers know all the infusions on any list you can find, you shouldn't need to research them.
Its +2 Tess. Mith. FP.

[NecroRick]

I disagree with the choice to use Kelgor's Firebolt instead of scorching ray. While it is 6750 gold cheaper than a CL7 scorching ray wand, it deals only 5d6 instead of 2*4d6,


I don't care how you slice it 8d6 with to hit rolls is a lot worse than ~22.5d6 (5 d6 + (5/2 d6 x 7)) with saving throws for half. Especially when it costs 280% more... (10,500 vs 3,750). At level 20 that amount of money isn't that big a deal, but at low levels that is huge.

Although, looking at it, there's probably a point where you just start running out of targets, and/or if you have that many targets you just switch to fireball... (though a 5d6 fireball costs triple the 5d6 Firebolt, and the firebolt still does 2.5 d6 to up to $level additional targets)...

[Legendairy]

I think I have also seen a wand list somewhere that was optimized for the Artificers tricks, any ideas?

Well now im told I will be bringing him in when I DM a self-revised version of the Dragon Mountain Adventure/Module. So if anyone would care to help ill be starting out at level 13 with 110,125 gold, what I have to do is figure out what magic items would have been made at which levels for the XP pool and whatnot, and i would like to have 4 homonculi. The tiny flying spy/scout/messenger one, the crossbow one, the mobile treasure box, and the dedicated wright I think its called (the one to make all my things while im on the road, also a portable hole for the one to work in that way I can check on it frequently and when things are done just use them. (thos are for mostly RP value and pretty much a requirement)

Other than that I was thinking something along the lines of the cannith goggles but not them cause they kinda suck for the price, just something with darkvision and the plus to UMD would be nice, definately going to go with some version of the mithral tesselated armor. I figure something like starting from level 9 with the reserve XP saying everything before that would have been used for mostly potions ETC. but add in like 1000xp for misc items I would cannabilize for XP. If this sounds good let me know and any equipment options let me know with cost and book please. Again thank you all you have been extremely extremely helpful.

[Madcrafter]

I don't care how you slice it 8d6 with to hit rolls is a lot worse than ~22.5d6 (5 d6 + (5/2 d6 x 7)) with saving throws for half. Especially when it costs 280% more... (10,500 vs 3,750). At level 20 that amount of money isn't that big a deal, but at low levels that is huge.

Although, looking at it, there's probably a point where you just start running out of targets, and/or if you have that many targets you just switch to fireball... (though a 5d6 fireball costs triple the 5d6 Firebolt, and the firebolt still does 2.5 d6 to up to $level additional targets)...

Your wand of Chained Keldore's Firebolt costs 15000g, and all those secondary targets are given 2 reflex saves for half damage each time, or if they have evasion, 2 saves for no damage. As for the hit rolls, they are ranged touch, and probably wouldn't be above 14 for most mooks.

As for figuring out what items you crafted at what level. I'll leave that up to you. Cannith goggles are nice if you need darkvision, and my artificer loves them (since everyone else in the party has darkvision, and he does lots of trapfinding), though if that isn't the case, they are skippable. At level 13, you probably won't need that much of a +item to UMD, since you should be able to make most of the checks with only ranks and Int.
As for what you should be making at each level, just look down the table to find the last item creation feat you got, and make that (with the exception of potions maybe, since I've never really found them too useful, since they cost more than scrolls, unless you really want to give them out to your noncasting buddies). If you have some extra XP left over, make more scrolls.

[Legendairy]

True, one other question, since the cost of xp is reduced for me do I siphon less xp from magical items or just the ones I make?

[Madcrafter]

It uses the XP it took to make the item, so only the ones you make would give less. Wouldn't make much sense if by crafting for cheaper you got less from retain essence.

[Legendairy]

Agreed but you never know.

[Legendairy]

Appearently we have differing views within our group, can you siphon XP from scrolls as they cost XP to make?

[Madcrafter]

Why not, they are magic items like anything else.

[Legendairy]

That's my way of thinking as well, bastards!

[Legendairy]

Ok, so it would seem I'm pretty much finished have a lot of gear and random stuff for various situations and some wands, just wondering if there is a list out there of good damage wands?

[Madcrafter]

Not that I know of off the top of my head. Best carry a bit of variety, MM (for those incorporeal and Resistant things), Scorching ray (hopefully substituted into a more useful energy), and Acid Orb (For those SR creatures who your wands have trouble affecting). Add on another one or two if you want some other spells, maybe an area one (Fireball is not recommended). Try to avoid things that give saves and SR, and you shouldn't have much trouble with ranged touch, so rays of all kinds are good.

[Metahuman1]

Neat trick.

1: Make a touch activate auto resetting spell trap of chained extended Unseen Servant.
2: Same, only with wall of Salt/Iron/other material that can be sold by weight.
3: Set off trap for Unseen servants several times and then have one of them drag a rock over the trap for the wall spell.
4: Make unseen servants Break up wall and take it into town so you can sell the material by weight for it's weight too gold value in the commodity's section of the PHB.
5: Profit
6: Repeat starting at step 3 indefinably.
7: Profit so much you never have to worry about not having the cast to craft what you will.



Other cool ideas.

1: Take Quick Draw.
2: Make a lot of Pistols using the Renaissance weapons rules in the DMG.
3: Make 2 custom magic items. A set of pistol holsters that automatically return the pistols too there place in the holsters once a round. And something that would automatically reload the pistols once a round if there holstered.
4: Free action draw pistol, shoot it, free action drop it, free action draw next pistol, shoot it, free action drop it, repeat. At end of turn, all pistols return to there holsters and reload themselves. Thus, you are now a dungeonpunk gun user who with a bit of application of the Heroics and divine power spells can be highly effective.

[Legendairy]

I do believe it was errata'ed that you only get one free action. Again already having sign off issues so yes a neat trick but completely against what I would do.

With the guns could be fun just not my cup of tea im also not very fond of the possibility that my weapons will explode (as is the case with fire arms in our campaign)

[Madcrafter]

Speaking of traps, do remember that you can use your retain essence class feature on magical traps too. They are a good source of craft reserve as long as you have the time to eat them.

[Metahuman1]

Another trick for Traps, put them in the handles and sheaths of weapons, and load them with Buff or healing spells too keep the party's HP high going into encounters and to save time getting them boosted up for a fight.

[Madcrafter]

I don't think Legendairy was trying to be so abusive of the rules, and auto reset infinite magic traps are very cheesy. Especially in weapon handles. I can't think of any DM that would let that fly either (without at least upping the cost to that of a continuous magic item) including my current one, who thoroughly enjoys extremely high power games.

[Legendairy]

Yeah, what madcrafter said. I think they are all neat tricks, like the rope trick ETC. It just doesn't have a place in our campaigns A)None of the DM's would allow that kind of abuse B)I am already stretching the limits, one of the DM's sees me as a power gamer threat, which I am, just not how he thinks.

When I run a campaign im big on how power high magic campaigns, we have seen the likes of artifiacts many of times, intelligent weapons and stuff like that can be found at a decent level.

I just have limits and don't want to offend too many people and we have a good group dynamic because noone tries to abuse the obscure rules and such, i would like to maintain that.

[NecroRick]

Your wand of Chained Keldore's Firebolt costs 15000g,

My wand of chained kelgores firebolt??? I don't have a wand of chained kelgores firebolt, but I see now why you keep missing the point...

I have a wand of kelgores firebolt, and I am applying the chaining *after* creation, preferably in one of the ways that doesn't use extra charges.



and all those secondary targets are given 2 reflex saves for half damage each time,


I did mention that myself already. It has such a large lead in sheer damage and massive cost savings on top of that, that even one extra saving throw isn't going to help your beloved Scorching Ray


At level 13, you probably won't need that much of a +item to UMD, since you should be able to make most of the checks with only ranks and Int.

That's round about when you get an ability that can require UMD rolls of 50 or more. Taking ten, CHA (not int) and ranks in UMD is only going to get you so far, you have a gap of about 20 points to close.

-----

Note also that for early access to spells, it can be a false economy. E.g. the trapmaker from Dungeonthingy gets Knock at level 1... so instead of paying 2 x 3 x 375 to make a wand of knock, you have to pay 1 x 6 x 375, because entry to that prestige class is at level 6....

Likewise with lesser restoration, if you're taking it from the paladin list then you have to pay for the minimum caster level a paladin could cast those spells at. Similarly if you're doing an arcane spell a a sorcerer then you'll pay for one level more than the wizard version (except level 1). It may be simpler and easier just not to do it like that (certainy it doesn't sound like it is conducive to DM/PC relations)

As for stone skin, you know you have to ay the full material cost x the number of charges, right? You don't get to apply the 50% discount for making it yourself to that.



As for what you should be making at each level, just look down the table to find the last item creation feat you got, and make that (with the exception of potions maybe, since I've never really found them too useful, since they cost more than scrolls, unless you really want to give them out to your noncasting buddies). If you have some extra XP left over, make more scrolls.

The thing with your scrolls of course is that they are neither divine nor arcane, so no one else can use them. Whether potions are going to be any good or not kind of depends on the rest of your party. A few pots of Faith Healing might not go amiss... other than that?

[Legendairy]

Makes sense, im always big on potions seeing the make up of the party they will need em, plus I can exploit them for magical items later lol.

Another question looking at the artificer after you hit level 16 all you basically gain is more infusions, another feat, and craft reserve?

Would it make any kind of sense to PrC into something like renegade mastermaker? You would become a construct eventually with alot of perks of being a warforged with none of the draw backs, well except of course getting your arse handed to you via another artificer.

Edit: Only reason i ask about the PrC honestly is for fluff i dig the metal limb look of the PrC plus some other metal looks IE plates attached crudely to the skin and such. Thing is the Half-Golem would destroy stats and not really fit just wanting like one or two limbs some chest type stuff, what about grafts? Anything that wouldnt have too much adverse effects and minimal gain?

[Madcrafter]

Would it make any kind of sense to PrC into something like renegade mastermaker? You would become a construct eventually with alot of perks of being a warforged with none of the draw backs, well except of course getting your arse handed to you via another artificer.

If you don't mind losing the craft reserve, go for it. Renegade mastermaker is a pretty decent PrC for artificers.


Note also that for early access to spells, it can be a false economy.

Mmm... right, forgot about that bit. However, trapsmith, though having to be 6th level, still would only have a caster level of 1, and wouldn't fall into that trap. I think runescarred berserker is the same, though I don't really remember. You are right about things like paladin and ranger though.


That's round about when you get an ability that can require UMD rolls of 50 or more.

Which ability is this? Not in the vanilla table, unless you are talking about the staff CL interpretation.


My wand of chained kelgores firebolt??? I don't have a wand of chained kelgores firebolt, but I see now why you keep missing the point...

I have a wand of kelgores firebolt, and I am applying the chaining *after* creation, preferably in one of the ways that doesn't use extra charges.

I meant the wand that you designed, but hoped you could figure that out. I figured you meant by using the infusion, but wanted to make sure before saying "than why not admix/twin/split scorching ray?" Speaking of which, why not admix/twin/split scorching ray?
I see the chained kelgore's firebolt being applicable only when there are more than 3, but less than 6, targets, that you want to all damage simultaneously (no matter the amount you deal). That is why I think the scorching ray is better, since outside such a situation, 4d6 with a ranged touch to up to 3 targets (if split)/8d6 to up to 2 targets(admix/twin) (more damage if there are less targets than that), is more useful than 5d6 save 1/2 to one target + 2.5d6 save 1/2 save 1/2 to 5 more targets, despite the fact that kelgore's firebolt has a higher maximum damage than a single ray. Add to that the fact that, since it is a wand, the save would only be DC 11, meaning that pretty much everything has a chance to make the save at least half the time, if not automatically at higher levels.

[Legendairy]

Well I don't know if the PrC will work out something about being a construct and too powerful, I even pointed out that wouldn't happen til level 26 ish and the concept just was not grasped. I do enjoy the group so if it's a no go then oh well artificer 20 with the craft reserve is still very nice.

Edit: So I meant to ask any ideas on the metallic limbs? Without breaking the game or severe limitations?

[Madcrafter]

You want some metallic limbs? The only way to do that (as far as I know) are the construct grafts in FoE, though with the Eberron dislike in your group you may have trouble getting them. They aren't all that powerful, but would be thematically appropriate if you wanted to go that way.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You want some metallic limbs? The only way to do that (as far as I know) are the construct grafts in MoE, though with the Eberron dislike in your group you may have trouble getting them. They aren't all that powerful, but would be thematically appropriate if you wanted to go that way.

There is the Third Arm magic item (takes up the belt slot IIRC) which you can activate with infusions, and depending on the level of infusion you use (up to third level) they go from holding stuff to being able to attack with weapons.

[Legendairy]

Yeah i know about the item thats attached to the belt, but im talking actual limb not an extra one.

Edit: The only grafts i see in MoE is Deathless, Elemental, and Plant, where are warforged/metal?

[Madcrafter]

My mistake, they are at the very end of Faiths of Eberron.

[NecroRick]

Which ability is this? Not in the vanilla table,

Indeed it is in the vanilla table.



unless you are talking about the staff CL interpretation.


Nope.

Have you actually _played_ an artificer?

[Madcrafter]

Actually telling me would have been nicer than making me guess. But since that isn't the case I will go through my investigation:
4 things on the table don't have static DCs, one of those (Deciphering) can only go to DC 34. That leaves us with 3. These DC 50 checks are:
-Emulating a class feature as a 30th level member of that class
-Activating a CL 30 scroll, and
-Emulating an ability score of 35
None of these seem to be things that would be required of a ~13th level character, so I remain mystified. Please enlighten me.

As for your little dig at the end, you are correct, I have not "played" an artificer before. I am currently playing one, and we have not yet gotten to that level (we are only at 9th). Perhaps that is the root of my ignorance.

[NecroRick]

I meant the wand that you designed,


The wand "I designed" is just a wand of lvl 5 Kelgore's Firebolt.



but hoped you could figure that out.


It should have been obvious simply from reading - but when you said that the wand cost 15,000gp, I knew you were talking about something completely different.



before saying "than why not admix/twin/split scorching ray?" Speaking of which, why not admix/twin/split scorching ray?


Because doing so is a clear attempt to muddy the waters. When comparing two spells, saying "why not slap energy admixture and twin" on one of them is silly - because you can apply it to the other one too!

Congrats. Your 8d6 scorching ray now does four times as much damage.
Oh, by the way, my 22d6 Firebolts now does four times as much damage.

Last I checked 32 is less than 88.



I see the chained kelgore's firebolt being applicable only when there are more than 3, but less than 6, targets,


Do you know what Chain Spell does? It effects up to your level additional targets.

Hence at level 6, your Scorching Ray does 4d6 damage, and the chained firebolt does 19.5 d6. The good news is that your scorching ray wand only costs 40% more now, instead of almost triple. (Hooray!)

At level 7, chain picks up an extra target. Each target is worth a (theoretical) 2.5d6 damage (or 10d6 since now everything is chained and twinned)

Because the chain isn't baked in to the wand, it scales with the players level.

----

The split ray is an interesting point. You could have tried to argue that if the Kelgore's gets chain for free, then the Scorching Ray gets split for free. (That would have made a lot more sense than your admixture/twinning non-point)

Let's roll with that for a moment:

At level 6 you make a wand of level 3 Scorching Ray.
You apply Split. It has a max damage of 8d6. Chained Firebolt has a max damage of 19.5d6. Chained Firebolt wins.

At level 7 - hooray, you get an extra bolt! (Third bolt because of splitting) It more than doubles the cost of your wand, for only 50% more damage. You needed to close the gap by a lot more than 50% btw. Anyway, now you're doing 12d6 vs 22d6. Twelve is less than twenty two.

Four levels later, you've added a fourth bolt, for an extra 4d6. Unfortunately for the comparison, I've picked up an extra four targets, for (a) no extra cost (your wand costs significantly more to get the extra bolt) and (b) an extra 10d6 damage.

So now it is 16d6 vs 32d6. Good luck with that.

Split Ray doesn't help your case, because it is actually quite a weak feat for Scorching Ray (for other things it is better)



that you want to all damage simultaneously (no matter the amount you deal).


In fact, that was the original context (the discussion had turned to Fell Drain at that point)



That is why I think the scorching ray is better


No no no. The way to argue that Scorching Ray is better is not to argue that it hits more targets than chained Firebolt. Because it doesn't.

The way to argue that it is better is not to say that you can put energy admixture on it and twin it (because that also equally applies to the Firebolt).

The way to argue that Scorching Ray is better is to say that most of the time you only want to damage one target anyway. That's probably not true, but given the parameters of what is being compared, the only scenario in which Scorching Ray is better is when you want to pile on the damage to a single target.

[Madcrafter]

Whoa, ships passing in the night. Perhaps I can reconcile the arguments that are attempting to get across here.


The wand "I designed" is just a wand of lvl 5 Kelgore's Firebolt.

My apologies for not using blunt language. I hope you know what I meant, but if not, forget about it.


Because doing so is a clear attempt to muddy the waters. When comparing two spells, saying "why not slap energy admixture and twin" on one of them is silly - because you can apply it to the other one too!

I figured that since your wand got one metamagic for chain, I could use one as well, for twin/admix.


Do you know what Chain Spell does? It effects up to your level additional targets.
...
Because the chain isn't baked in to the wand, it scales with the players level.


If you apply it to the wand with the infusion, than it would use the wand's CL of 5 for a total of 6 targets. Your point is valid if you are using the class ability though.


The split ray is an interesting point. You could have tried to argue that if the Kelgore's gets chain for free, then the Scorching Ray gets split for free. (That would have made a lot more sense than your admixture/twinning non-point)

I actually said that since the firebolt got a free chain, the ray could get a choice of a free admix, twin, or split.


Let's roll with that for a moment:
-snip-
Split Ray doesn't help your case, because it is actually quite a weak feat for Scorching Ray (for other things it is better)

I agree split ray is not an optimal feat for scorching ray, and was actually banking on the admixture.
I also never said that Kelgore's firebolt did less dice of damage than scorching ray, which you seem continually inclined to point out. In fact I concluded the opposite earlier:

...despite the fact that kelgore's firebolt has a higher maximum damage...

My point has been that with the exceptionally easy double reflex save produced by chaining that spell, your damage is in pretty much all cases likely to work out to less than that of the ray. However, if you are indeed chaining in a method that uses your caster level instead of the wand, with enough targets, I agree you will do more with Kelgore's.


No no no. The way to argue that Scorching Ray is better is not to argue that it hits more targets than chained Firebolt. Because it doesn't.

Never said it did.


The way to argue that it is better is not to say that you can put energy admixture on it and twin it (because that also equally applies to the Firebolt).

As pointed out above, I figured if you were using a metamagic, I would compare using a metamagic as well.


The way to argue that Scorching Ray is better is to say that most of the time you only want to damage one target anyway. That's probably not true, but given the parameters of what is being compared, the only scenario in which Scorching Ray is better is when you want to pile on the damage to a single target.

Actually, up to 2 targets, which I think is reasonable. Due to the action economy mechanics, I think dropping a target is usually better than damaging several.

Hopefully that clears things up a bit.

[Legendairy]

Yeah sorry I coulda swore i saw MoE and not FoE but you were right in both posts it was my mistake. I hope they will be ok with it and maybe modify the Adamantine body to mithral or just get the mighty arms and legs not too much gain and at a cost of 4HP and a -2 on swim saves for no fatigue and a 1d4 slam attack plus able to wear warforged components not too shabby, lets just see i suppose.

[Madcrafter]

Yea, they aren't the most overpowering things in the world.

As for seeing MoE, you are correct in seeing it, I edited it when posting the correction.

[Legendairy]

Ahh ok, yeah I'm just looking for the fluff may just have some mithral/adamantine "veins" running along the outside of his skin or something to that effect. Now I need to make the list of wands and adjust my magic item list based on cost. Btw you may want to look into the Artificers Monocle pg 72 of MiC, don't think you can beat free identify.

[Madcrafter]

I agree it is very useful. However my in campaign the DM doesn't bother to make us identify all the crap we get. Most of it gets sold/eaten to make new items (remember that you need gold too; I have to strike a careful balance between what gets sold, and what gets remade). If that weren't the case though, I wouldn't hesitate to pick one up (remember you get identify as an infusion too, so if you don't plan to be using a lot of 1st level infusions, you can pass, though for only 1.5k its not like it saves you all that much)

[Legendairy]

With the amount of magic items we like to roll in and with up to six players identify is 100g a pop and I hope I will use 1st level infusions for my allies but they will fork out the gold for alot of things atleast that's the plan.

[NecroRick]

With the amount of magic items we like to roll in and with up to six players identify is 100g a pop and I hope I will use 1st level infusions for my allies but they will fork out the gold for alot of things atleast that's the plan.

FAQ has Artificer's Identify infusion as a freebie.



Q: Are artificers required to use arcane material components or arcane foci for infusions that simulate spells? What about a divine focus?

A: No. An artificer is neither an arcane spellcaster nor a divine spellcaster, and thus isn’t required to use a material component or focus that’s normally required only of casters of those types.
The artificer can ignore any component listed as an “arcane material component,” and can ignore any focus listed as an “arcane focus” or “divine focus.” For example, even though the 1st-level artificer infusion identify is listed with M (indicating material component), the artificer need not supply the component as part of imbuing the infusion, since that spell lists the component as an “arcane” material component.
Effectively, this allows the artificer to ignore any “Components” line listed as “F/DF” or “M/DF” (see “Components,” on page 174 in the PH, for an explanation of these entries).




Identify
Divination
Level: Brd 1, Magic 2, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 hour
Range: Touch
Targets: One touched object
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The spell determines all magic properties of a single magic item, including how to activate those functions (if appropriate), and how many charges are left (if any).

Identify does not function when used on an artifact.

Arcane Material Component
A pearl of at least 100 gp value, crushed and stirred into wine with an owl feather; the infusion must be drunk prior to spellcasting.

[Legendairy]

I know it's free to artificers, but with the limited amount of infusions I think they could be better spent especially seeing how cheap the magic item in question is. The 100g a pop was what was being paid prior to my character coming on the scene my point was not that it will STILL cost that much my point was I will be saving them that amount and I won't be limited to 5 level 1 infusions and no gold or xp cost for scrolls. It is still a very handy piece of equipment to just keep in a bag and only use when the time comes, if we find 3 suits of armor 4 rings 2 weapons 1 pair of boots and some gauntlets then the amount of infusions I have per day won't cover it. If we are still in the middle of a module or adventure we may not get a chance to rest another day or two so I can identify it all. So what I was saying is for the gold it's great no using infusions that can be used for better things and I'm saving the party the gold so they can help out with gold costs for later items, or by the monocle outright as a party investment.

[Madcrafter]

More commas would help understanding. It was unclear if you knew it was free or not.

[NecroRick]

I know it's free to artificers, but with the limited amount of infusions I think they could be better spent especially seeing how cheap the magic item in question is. The 100g a pop was what was being paid prior to my character coming on the scene my point was not that it will STILL cost that much my point was I will be saving them that amount and I won't be limited to 5 level 1 infusions and no gold or xp cost for scrolls. It is still a very handy piece of equipment to just keep in a bag and only use when the time comes, if we find 3 suits of armor 4 rings 2 weapons 1 pair of boots and some gauntlets then the amount of infusions I have per day won't cover it. If we are still in the middle of a module or adventure we may not get a chance to rest another day or two so I can identify it all. So what I was saying is for the gold it's great no using infusions that can be used for better things and I'm saving the party the gold so they can help out with gold costs for later items, or by the monocle outright as a party investment.

Sure, after 15 ids the monocle has paid for itself when compared to traditional methods, and if you don't have much/any downtime between adventures then the convenience is extremely handy.

[Legendairy]

Put it this way the current DM gets upset at our casters when they take time adding spells from one book to the other. So he just rushes it to try and not let them share.

Now another question im trying to make all these items and whatnot but the wands and the cost of them are whats getting me, I have 2 stacking feats so its 50% less gold and 25% less xp I know half the cost in book then hald that for me for the gold and i get that the xp is stil 1/25 of the gold regardless of what feats I have. But alot of spells arent on the wand list so how do I modify them?

Scorching ray I don't see and since it doesn't have a material component, im confused slightly so can anyone dumb it down for me?

Also Necro where is the firebolt spell? Which book? I like Scorching but the cost effeciency may be an issue as well I think I will try to get both for different situations.

[Legendairy]

Sorry about the grammar I generally post from my phone so I tend to just type it fast and say "screw grammar"

[NecroRick]

Now another question im trying to make all these items and whatnot but the wands and the cost of them are whats getting me, I have 2 stacking feats so its 50% less gold and 25% less xp I know half the cost in book then hald that for me for the gold and i get that the xp is stil 1/25 of the gold regardless of what feats I have. But alot of spells arent on the wand list so how do I modify them?


Table: Wand Base Prices (By Crafter’s Class)
Spell Level Clr, Drd, Wiz Sor Brd Pal, Rgr1
Caster level is half class level.
Prices assume that the wand was made at the minimum caster level.
0 375 gp 375 gp 375 gp —
1st 750 gp 750 gp 1,500 gp 1,500 gp
2nd 4,500 gp 6,000 gp 6,000 gp 6,000 gp
3rd 11,250 gp 13,500 gp 15,750 gp 11,250 gp
4th 21,000 gp 24,000 gp 30,000 gp 21,000 gp

See: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingWands



Scorching ray I don't see and since it doesn't have a material component, im confused slightly so can anyone dumb it down for me?


Sure, no problem, since I love Scorching Ray so much. *cough* :D

So say you're making a Wand of Scorching Ray. And lets say you're a member in good standing of $Mages_Guild (10% reduction in price/xp). And lets say you only want Artificers to be able to use the Wand (30% reduction in price/xp), and any Artificer that uses it must have UMD ((well duh) 10% reduction in price/xp)

the base price to create a minimum level wizard wand is:
Level x ((Level x 2) -1) x 750 gp

since the caster level is level x 2 -1

As you can see in the above table, a level 1 wand costs 1 x 1 x 750gp.
A wand of knock costs 2 x 3 x 750, because character level 3 is when a wizard gets access to knock. Similarly Fireball has a price of 3 x 5 x 750gp.

Now, if you look closely at the "wand list", you'll see there are multiple entries for fireball. Why? Because you want to be able to use the wand to make bigger fireballs.

The base wand of fireballs: 3 x 5 x 750gp only does 5d6 fireballs, even if the person using the wand is level 50million.

So to get the fireball to do more damage, we craft it at a higher caster level, and that costs more.

3 x 6 x 750gp and now that wand does 6d6 fireballs. Woot!

Okay, the reason I walked you through all that crap was because for scorching ray the caster level of the wand is kind of (very) important. Scorching Ray has breakpoints at caster levels 3, 7 and 11.

Those wands cost (respectively)
2 x 3 x 750gp
2 x 7 x 750gp
2 x 11 x 750gp

So lets say when you hit level 7 you want to craft a wand of Scorching Ray, and you want two rays, so you want it's caster level to be 7. How much will it actually cost?

Well, 2 x 7 x 750gp = 10,500gp.

But hey, you have all those reductions, and they add up, right?
50% off for crafting
25% off for your first feat
25% off for your second feat
30% off for your class restriction
10% off for your skill restriction
10% off for your guild

Wow. that adds up to -150% !!!! We make money crafting the wand?

BZZZZTTTT Wrong answer.

The reductions are not _additive_ they are _cumulative_.

the cost is multiplied by these factors:
0.5 for crafting
0.75 for your first feat
0.75 for your second feat
0.7 for your class restriction
0.9 for your skill restriction
0.9 for your guild

So the market price is multiplied by: 0.15946875

Incidentally, ditching one of those feats isn't going to be that big a deal. Here's the cost to you with it: 1674.43gp
Here's the cost to you without it: 2232.57

You go from 16% to 21%. Anyway, that'll probably start another religious war, so lets pretend I didn't say that.

The _time_ to craft it is based on the market price, depending on how your DM interprets some of those extra modifiers I slapped on, it may be up to 11 days. You get 12 rolls to make the UMD target to craft it. The DC is 27. If you think to yourself "how will I make that?" do not despair. Only one of the twelve rolls needs to make it, so even if you only had +12 to UMD you would easily make it.

Here's a breakdown of that:
Ranks in UMD <- max these please = 10
Your Cha <- lets say 14 so 2
Your skill enhancement infusion <- 2 + levels/2 = 5
Your masterwork tool of making UMD stuff <- 2 more
You cast Eagle's Splendour because you can <- +4 to cha = 2 more
Total bonuses: 21

At level 7 you should make a DC 27 UMD roll on approximately 6 or higher on the dice roll.

If you can't make that in 12 rolls then consider blowing some action points, or crafting (at lower levels) some scrolls of random +skills spells.

Okay, so we can be relatively sure (96.832364797592% approximately) of making it without even really breaking into a sweat over the UMD. How much XP will it cost? Good question.

Take the market price: 10,500gp.
Divide by 25 = 420
Now apply some _cumulative_ modifiers:
0.75 for your third feat
0.7 for your class restriction
0.9 for your skill restriction
0.9 for your guild
= 179 xp

No doubt someone will nitpick if I got the numbers wrong. Hopefully that explains it though.



Also Necro where is the firebolt spell? Which book? I like Scorching but the cost effeciency may be an issue as well I think I will try to get both for different situations.

I believe it is in the PHB2. Same place as the much more popular Kelgore's Grave Mist.

In your case I would take Kelgore's Firebolt if I was planning on doing either of:
(a) applying Chain Spell metamagic
or
(b) double wand wielding (to do two lots of 5d6 to a single target or two targets)

In the latter case the Firebolt goes in the off-hand (the one that is drained twice as fast) because it is cheaper. You could even mix and match - though you would not want to (for instance) put the Firebolt wand in the primary hand and the Scorching Ray wand in the off-hand.

Firebolt is a level 1 spell, and the breakpoint is caster level 5.

5 x 1 x 750gp = 3,750gp market price
Cost to you to craft: 598gp and 64xp

----

On the topic of low level spells that deal OMG damage, you also need to consider the lesser orb spells, Extended Heat/Chill Metal and (even better against a single target - also, does not require them to be wearing metal armour) Extended Creeping Cold.

----

Note also that if you make a wand with fewer charges, you pay proportionately less. Take the 750gp factor and replace it. E.g. a wand with only 5 charges would use 75gp instead of 750gp. Each charge is 15gp (so wands are more cost effective than scrolls).

You may find that with a spell like Scorching Ray, you're not going to use it 50 times before you "outgrow" it, especially the smaller one. Maybe making the first wand 10 or 20 charges will be sufficient. Then later on you upgrade to a more powerful one.

[NecroRick]

Anyway... for the sake of argument lets say you've fallen deeply and passionately in love with Creeping Cold. But you look at it and the Extend Spell metamagic, and your class feature, and back at the metamagic, and you're trying to figure out whether it is better to make the wand with a built-in extend, or whether it is better to make the base wand and then burn an extra charge when you use it:

Non-baked in base cost: 2 x 3 x 750gp = 3,000gp
Two of these (because you'll use up charges twice as fast) = 6,000gp

Baked in base cost: 3 x 3 x 750gp = 4,500gp

----

Now lets say you want to do it to it's bigger brother, Creeping Cold, Greater. Should we bake it in?

Bzzzt. Wrong.

Here we bump into the limitation that wands have, that you can't make a wand of a higher level than 4, so we can't take a fourth level spell and extend it in the wand when we make it, we have to burn extra charges to make it do more damage. :-( So sad.

Of course... there's always staves... (queue evil laughter)

----

Should you fall in love with extended creeping cold? Yes the damage is way up there, but how often would it get to do all of it? If your party either wins or loses in 3-4 rounds, then damage over time spells are not going to be so good.

----

Consider the opposite scenario, where you use wands for defence. You could make some homunculi (e.g. Iron Defenders) and then make a wand of this bad boy:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resilientSphere.htm

... wave your wand at the start of combat, let the doggies participate in the battle while you watch/direct from your fortress of solitude ...

If your team gets wiped, you can always hulk up - consider your second level armour augmentation and Healing, Greater (on p12 MIC), as well as personal baning your weapon, maybe apply some clericzilla on a stick too (like deodorant only not as nice smelling). The sphere will give you enough time to hulk up in safety, then you can bust out, slap down some extended DoT spells, and then pop back into another sphere... :D

Wands of Faith Healing will do wonders for healing yourself, and Greater Healing will bring you back (twice) if you get knocked into negatives.

[Legendairy]

Awesome, thank you, yes indeed that does help..I thought the feats the one from FR and one from ECS (im not taking the time reduction one) I thought they were 25% cumulitive wouldnt that mean a 50% cumulitive bonus to the base price?

As its writtin: EXTRAORDINARY ARTISAN
[ITEM CREATION]
You are an expert at creating magic items at a lower cost
than usual.
Prerequisite: Any item creation feat.
Benefi t: When determining the gold piece cost in raw
materials you need to craft any item, reduce the base price
by 25%.

And how the other one reads from FR: MAGICAL ARTISAN [GENERAL]
Each time you take this feat, choose one item creation feat you know. When determining your cost in XP and raw materials for creating items with this feat, multiply the base price by 75%

Now i do understand that I cant actually get paid to make my own item. So I guess im still slightly lost as to the raw material and XP cost I get the spell level and caster level (thanks to your in depth explanation) I guess im just lost on the material and XP cost based on the two feats in question?

From reading the explanation what I am getting is that its not actually the 75% but a .75% of cost?

Sorry if im being a PITA about this as I have stated in the past I usually play a melee class :P or a caster who does not have to worry about this just he materials and meta's

[NecroRick]

From reading the explanation what I am getting is that its not actually the 75% but a .75% of cost?

Sorry if im being a PITA about this as I have stated in the past I usually play a melee class :P or a caster who does not have to worry about this just he materials and meta's

Both feats multiply the base cost / market price of the object in question by 0.75

They don't add up to 50%. That'd be easier to calculate though.

0.75 x 0.75 = 0.5625

It is 'close' to 50%, but not the same.

Let's try a more 'vanilla' item.

Say you want to slap a +1 modifier on a longsword.
The base cost is 2000gp
We halve that (because we're making it ourself)
Now it is 1000gp.
Now the Extraordinary Artisan bonus kicks in, and we multiply by 0.75 to get:
750gp
Next your other (Faerun?) feat kicks in, and again multiplies by 0.75 to get:
562.5gp

Those are all of our modifiers. Of course, we can only apply this modifier to a masterwork longsword, so we have to pay for one of them too.

Masterwork Longsword = 300gp (masterwork) + 15gp (sword) = 315gp

Our final material cost will be 562.5 + 315 = 877.5 gp

Of course if someone (say another player) supplies the masterwork weapon then you can knock off the 315gp material cost for that, and just go with the 562.5gp cost.

----

XP Cost
2000 / 25 = 80xp
For Legendary Artisan we multiply that by 0.75 to get 60xp

----

Time to craft
2000 / 1000 days = 2 days

[Legendairy]

Yeah got it now, for lack of a better way of thanking you, you rock!

[Madcrafter]

Remember that magical artisan applies to XP costs too, so multiply another .75 on there. (Sorry NecroRick, my need to nitpick is overwhelming).

[Legendairy]

Think I may drop that feat as it only applies to one group (handy for wands I know) I think I would be better off with another meta feat instead. Either way thank you.

[NecroRick]

Remember that magical artisan applies to XP costs too, so multiply another .75 on there. (Sorry NecroRick, my need to nitpick is overwhelming).

Thats okay, I try not to get any Faerun in my Eberron, and I'd rather my maths was correct than my mastery of trivia.

[Legendairy]

So if i wanted to use Ray of Enfeeblement 1st level spell and QUICKEN SPELL it wouldnt work because quicken casts the spell at a slot four levels higher? Thus making it a 5xCLx750gp?

[Madcrafter]

Correct. You can't put 5th level spells in wands. Staves however...

[Legendairy]

Yeah, with having dual wand weilding I think I would get more out of wands then staves. However im sure I will have a staff for the really big nasties.

Oh by the way nice new sig, madcrafter lol

[Legendairy]

So how does a staff work? Basically the same of spell level x CL x 750gp?

And staves can be used at lower level as well right? Basically they level up with you too like use your DC and CL as you gain levels?

[Madcrafter]

Pretty much. They cost the same as a wand to make if you are only putting one spell in (though you should put in more, because staves benefit from economies of scale). They use your CL and DCs if higher. Staffs are better for higher level spells though, since the spells inside are minimum CL 8 when created. That means you would be wasting a lot of money by putting in a damaging spell that does not scale well, or at all. You can also make things less expensive by having a spell or two consume two charges to use.

[Legendairy]

How do you go about adding more spells? Whats that formula spell level x spell level x spell level x caster level x 750g? Or something like that?

[Madcrafter]

Its in the DMG, or here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm
just go to staves. It costs 3/4 as much for the second, and half for the rest.