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Mr. Anon Omys
2011-09-02, 10:08 PM
Playground, help me out. My friend erroneously holds the belief that dragons are the coolest fantasy creatures around. Could you please provide me with creatures and arguments to disabuse him of his claim.

Thank you.

Dr.Epic
2011-09-02, 10:11 PM
Playground, help me out. My friend erroneously holds the belief that dragons are the coolest fantasy creatures around. Could you please provide me with creatures and arguments to disabuse him of his claim.

Thank you.

Um, if you can't think of anything, maybe just admit he's right. Why's it so important he's not right?:smallconfused:

Coidzor
2011-09-02, 10:56 PM
Barbers. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMKJ9fDM2mo#t=1m27s) :smallamused:

Forum Explorer
2011-09-02, 10:58 PM
I'm afraid I have to inform you that nothing is cooler then dragons.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-02, 11:05 PM
Vampires are far cooler. Because, you know. No body heat.

Dr.Epic
2011-09-02, 11:13 PM
Vampires are far cooler. Because, you know. No body heat.

I don't think anyone can make that statement anymore thanks to Stephenie Meyer.:smalleek:

Back on top, dragons are just cool. They're physically powerful, can shoot beams of fire, energy, or what-have-you out of their mouths, they're cunning, and they just look bad ass. The only thing I'd say might be cooler is a balrog, and even that's just a maybe.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-02, 11:16 PM
Localizing it in DnD, the critter that's actually based on the Balrog, the good old Balor, is far less cool than its Infernal counterpart, the Pit Fiend.

rayne_dragon
2011-09-02, 11:26 PM
Dragons are a pretty tough bunch to beat in terms of coolness. Even for someone who has a different favourite fantasy creature, it's hard to deny the ultimate coolness of dragons. Your best contenders are likely the undead, demons, and old school style fairies. Not the little flightly tinkerbell ones, the ones who kill and torture humans for fun - and that's the nice ones when they're in a good mood.

The problem is there are undead dragons (which are cooler than regular undead), demons are kind of jerks all the time, and few people take fairies seriously (and even there are also fairy dragons).


Vampires are far cooler. Because, you know. No body heat.

I'm not sure they're colder than white dragons though...

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-02, 11:28 PM
old school style fairies

God yes. The Gentleman with the Thistledown Hair is probably one of my favorite villains in all recent fiction.

Coidzor
2011-09-02, 11:29 PM
God yes. The Gentleman with the Thistledown Hair is probably one of my favorite villains in all recent fiction.

Recent fiction? What fiction be he from?

SowZ
2011-09-02, 11:35 PM
Golems are cool. They are also Jewish, which is interesting. So don't attack them on Saturday, it's rude. Seriously, I really like Golems. Traditional clay ones. Stone are cool, too.

But cooler then dragons? I cannot say that they are.

NikitaDarkstar
2011-09-03, 12:15 AM
Sorry but you can't get it cooler than dragons. And if you find something dragons can either eat it or there's a draconic version of it.

Liches? Yep Draco-liches. Fairies? Fairydragons. Angels? Celestial Dragons. Demons? Heck that's an entire subspecies of dragons right there. Undead? Yep dragons can be that too. Giants? Colossal++ was invented for a reason. (That reason is to let dragons be able to have giants and titans as a snack when they get the munchies.)

Okay wolfs might possibly be cooler. Possibly. Norse mythology ones. One will eat the sun, one the moon, one will kill some gods, and Odin has two as pets. But well, sorry a dragon gnawing off the roots of the world is still pretty damn cool.

Knaight
2011-09-03, 12:22 AM
Humans. Think about how much they can do from a narrative sense.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 12:49 AM
Recent fiction? What fiction be he from?

Jonathan Strange and Mister Norrell by Susanna Clarke, a gigantic epic that involves, at various times, the Duke of Wellington, Lord Byron, Napoleon, stuffy Victorian wizards, prophecies, and dancing.

Engine
2011-09-03, 12:52 AM
Humans. Think about how much they can do from a narrative sense.

I agree. There a lot of humans' heroes. Dragons are, for the most part, corpse-to-be.

Xyk
2011-09-03, 12:59 AM
Dinosaurs are cooler because they are not fictional. Octopuses are also super cool. They can shapechange, plus their limbs act independently and together simultaneously. Also not fictional. In my eyes, the real-life factor is pretty significant.

NikitaDarkstar
2011-09-03, 01:02 AM
Dinosaurs are cooler because they are not fictional. Octopuses are also super cool. They can shapechange, plus their limbs act independently and together simultaneously. Also not fictional. In my eyes, the real-life factor is pretty significant.

Except he specifically asked for coolest fantasy creature. dinosaurs and octopuses really don't qualify. Unless there's specific mythical individuals that might. Ditto for humans. :p

Derjuin
2011-09-03, 01:10 AM
Playground, help me out. My friend erroneously holds the belief that dragons are the coolest fantasy creatures around. Could you please provide me with creatures and arguments to disabuse him of his claim.

Thank you.

Atropals.

I mean, come on, just LOOK at that thing, and how awesome it is

Okay maybe Atropals aren't awesome, but they sure are fun to bring up in a "coolest monster" debate.


Only click this if you've a strong stomach (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/EPIC_Gallery/Gallery5a/44165_C5_atropal.jpg)


Aside from that, faeries of all kind. New, old, winged, unwinged, seelie, unseelie, your choice. While the dragon has grandeur and power in its arsenal, faeries have guile and mischief in theirs; I like dragons for their qualities, but faeries seem to attract me more.

turkishproverb
2011-09-03, 01:10 AM
Gelatinous Cubes.

It's a jello mold... that eats you!

Fiat Lux
2011-09-03, 01:14 AM
Recent fiction? What fiction be he from?

Jonathan Strange & Mr. Norrell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Strange_%26_Mr_Norrell), if I remember correctly. Pretty good, if you're into the fae and Romantic literature (and if you're not much for the latter, it's really difficult to get through the first half or so).

Dr paradox
2011-09-03, 01:16 AM
traditional "Giant Squid" Kraken... Mind Flayers... Primordials (two hundred foot tall roiling firestorms that could incinerate a red dragon without thinking about it? awesome)... Frost giants.

Hawkfrost000
2011-09-03, 01:28 AM
Dri**t is far cooler than any dragon

but even Dri**t cannot defeat Cthulhu

if you are looking for races/species then i would rank drow pretty high

but i have to say anything that you create with your own mind is cooler than "just" dragons

Knaight
2011-09-03, 01:36 AM
Except he specifically asked for coolest fantasy creature. dinosaurs and octopuses really don't qualify. Unless there's specific mythical individuals that might. Ditto for humans. :p

There are two definitions for "Fantasy Creature" worth looking at, both of which are popular enough for a descriptive analysis to include them. In their simplest forms, they essentially are:
1) A nonexistent being exclusive to fantasy.
2) A being which appears in fantasy stories.

The second of these encompasses real creatures which are also in fantasy. Humans qualify in a major way, particularly as they are different in and out of fantasy, and are extremely pervasive through the genre. Dinosaurs and octopi appear with somewhat less frequency, but are still encompassed in the second definition.

Darthteej
2011-09-03, 01:39 AM
Braxats. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_11.jpg)

Why?

Because they're freaking 15 foot tall rhino beetles with tons of spells and psychic powers that can read your mind from a mile away. Oh, and you say dragons have cool breath weapons? Braxats have them too. Argument won.

SowZ
2011-09-03, 02:04 AM
Dri**t is far cooler than any dragon

but even Dri**t cannot defeat Cthulhu

if you are looking for races/species then i would rank drow pretty high

but i have to say anything that you create with your own mind is cooler than "just" dragons

Honestly, he's a bit of a prick.

OracleofWuffing
2011-09-03, 02:13 AM
Gelatinous Cubes.

It's a jello mold... that eats you!

I was going to say that, too. There's just one problem:

Half-dragon gelatinous cube.

That just demonstrates a bigger issue, though: what you come up with basically has to be exclusive, otherwise you just get one-upped because someone else can just slap a dragon on it.

Zale
2011-09-03, 02:27 AM
Can't go wrong with fairies.

I mean, sure an angry dragon could kill you, but an angry fairy could visit horrors on you for hundreds of years until your soul begged from release from the shriveled husk that trapped it.. :smalleek:

Not to mention you can normally see a dragon coming.

Unless you're a certain gender ambiguous elf.. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/images/1rQOTgp3FAKYfAecXYw.gif)

Zombimode
2011-09-03, 03:42 AM
Playground, help me out. My friend erroneously holds the belief that dragons are the coolest fantasy creatures around. Could you please provide me with creatures and arguments to disabuse him of his claim.

Thank you.

This is an futile inquiry.

What is cool is a matter of personal taste. Therefore he cant hold a belief erroneously, and you cant prove him wrong.

You can disargree with him, and provide him with creatures you think as cooler as dragons. Maybe he will change his mind, maybe not. Thats all you can do.

But seriously, why is this important?

Besides, you are all wrong. A half-Beholder / half-Chocolate with the Tauric template is far cooler than all those vanilla creatures you have listed :smallwink:

icefractal
2011-09-03, 05:04 AM
Well, I think anything where the coolness is being physically impressive is a losing proposition, because as mentioned, you can just slap dragon onto it. Titan? Dragon Titan. Big Fiery Demon? Demon Dragon. And so forth.

So you need something where "bigger and more teeth" is not a selling point. For example, in D&D territory:
* Doppelganger puppet master - Sure, dragons can shapeshift too, but this guy can shapeshift better, and who cares about teeth when you control empires?
* Lich - Ok, personal taste - I don't think Dracoliches are really an upgrade on the normal kind. You're supposed to be a legendary spellcaster - you should feel ashamed if you have to physically bite somebody.
* Demilich - Even if you disagreed with Lich, there's this. When you're a floating skull that soul-traps people by looking at them, being a bigger skull with fangs is fairly pointless.
* Umbral Blot - It's a sentient sphere of annihilation - enough said.

In a more general context:
* True Protean - I'm not talking about crap like Polymorph, I'm talking about constant and immediate shapeshifting to any shape, including composite ones. Somewhat common in anime, because it's visually pretty spectacular.
* Godlike Energy Being (TM) - This could be dragon-shaped, but it doesn't really matter.
* Ridiculous Power, Unassuming Package - There's nothing "unassuming" about a dragon, so they are disqualified from this.

Greenish
2011-09-03, 08:26 AM
Except he specifically asked for coolest fantasy creature. dinosaurs and octopuses really don't qualify. Unless there's specific mythical individuals that might.The Kraken! You take octopus (which are awesomely cool), make it insanely huge, let it control weather, and make it even more intelligent.

Waker
2011-09-03, 08:40 AM
I gotta give my props to the Phoenix. It's a giant, immortal bird made of fire.

Dr.Epic
2011-09-03, 09:00 AM
I gotta give my props to the Phoenix. It's a giant, immortal bird made of fire.

Yeah, but she was terrible in the third X-Men movie.:smallwink:

OverdrivePrime
2011-09-03, 09:10 AM
Yeah, but she was terrible in the third X-Men movie.:smallwink:

Let us not speak of or acknowledge the third X-Men movie. :smallsigh:

Anyway, chalk up another vote for the Phoenix (http://www.wallpapersland.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Phoenix-the-legendary-bird.jpg).

Dr.Epic
2011-09-03, 09:48 AM
Let us not speak of or acknowledge the third X-Men movie. :smallsigh:

Don't you know who I am?

molten_dragon
2011-09-03, 10:10 AM
Playground, help me out. My friend erroneously holds the belief that dragons are the coolest fantasy creatures around. Could you please provide me with creatures and arguments to disabuse him of his claim.

Thank you.

Sorry to be the one to tell you this, but your friend is right. Nothing is cooler than dragons.

Bearpunch
2011-09-03, 10:24 AM
DAGON! The demon from the abyss. He is knowledgeable, cunning and tactical, but will RIP YOUR FACE OFF.
Bonus points for being from the Cthulhu Mythos.

WildPyre
2011-09-03, 10:30 AM
Hmm cooler than dragons? Two things come to mind... no sure if either counts.

PCs and Batman.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 10:33 AM
Hmm cooler than dragons? Two things come to mind... no sure if either counts.

PCs and Batman.

There's a good reason it's not called "Batcaves and Batman". Batman makes a bad opponent climactic dungeon encounter, mostly because you could beat him to death with two or three Magic Missiles.

Dragons, however, are big and strong and in their eyes is a fiery glow.

Mystic Muse
2011-09-03, 10:38 AM
Cool is a matter of opinion. What's cool or good to one person will not necessarily be the same to another. Your friend is not wrong that dragons are the coolest any more than you're wrong that dragons aren't, because it is entirely subjective.

To make another comparison, I'm sure you and your friend like different music, or at least like the same music to different degrees. Neither of you are wrong that one song is better or worse, since you're only arguing from your perspective.

WildPyre
2011-09-03, 10:51 AM
There's a good reason it's not called "Batcaves and Batman". Batman makes a bad opponent climactic dungeon encounter, mostly because you could beat him to death with two or three Magic Missiles.

Dragons, however, are big and strong and in their eyes is a fiery glow.

Are you implying that Batman would be killed by 3d4 +3 force damage? Also the pencil-necked wizard would need a high enough perception/spot check to see Batman lurking in the shadows... and seriously there's a reason that the "ultimate' Wizard build is refered to as the "Batman Wizard".

In a fight my money is on Batman regardless of his opponent.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 10:54 AM
No, the "Batman" Wizard refers to its predilection for ultimate preparedness, not because Batman can do magic. However, saying Batman would be killed by a few magic missiles was clearly exaggeration.

Are you saying you'd bet on Batman against, say, the World Born Dead? Or Iuz?

There's a reason he hangs out with Superman.

EDIT: Also Batman is a Fighter/Monk/Rogue with mental issues. I wouldn't bet on him in any fight above street level.

Bearpunch
2011-09-03, 10:55 AM
In a fight my money is on Batman regardless of his opponent.

What about a pack of 12 Balors followed by several Chain Devils and Dagon? (Dont question it!)

Reaper_Monkey
2011-09-03, 11:08 AM
I know my other-half would vote for the Displacer Beast, so I'm put that one forward.

A magical, multi-legged, squid tentacled feline beast that can see in the dark and distort light around itself, its the perfect ambush predator! Although it no doubts plays with its food...

WildPyre
2011-09-03, 11:26 AM
No, the "Batman" Wizard refers to its predilection for ultimate preparedness, not because Batman can do magic. However, saying Batman would be killed by a few magic missiles was clearly exaggeration.

Are you saying you'd bet on Batman against, say, the World Born Dead? Or Iuz?

There's a reason he hangs out with Superman.

EDIT: Also Batman is a Fighter/Monk/Rogue with mental issues. I wouldn't bet on him in any fight above street level.

At what point did I say Batman could do magic? I only stated that there was a reason the "Batman Wizard" was named as such, not that it was because Batman could do magic. Also you admit that it's because it's ultimate preparedness but then go on to play Batman off as just a Fighter/Monk/Rogue with mental issues, that couldn't win anything more than a street level fight?

Batman comes prepared.

An army of Belor invade the earth with massive fire breathing bunnies in mithral plate dual wielding gargantuan spiked chains and backed by Cthulu?

Guess who has or is in the process of retrieving the mighty macguffin to send them back?

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 11:29 AM
At what point did I say Batman could do magic? I only stated that there was a reason the "Batman Wizard" was named as such, not that it was because Batman could do magic. Also you admit that it's because it's ultimate preparedness but then go on to play Batman off as just a Fighter/Monk/Rogue with mental issues, that couldn't win anything more than a street level fight?

Did I say he couldn't win? After all I've seen him win multiple times, including against things he has no right even existing in the same universe as. I've seen him get punched in the face by Darkseid multiple times and live, which suggests those Fighter d10s.

I'm saying I wouldn't bet on him.

Batman doesn't win fights against things bigger than him. He brings people who can, or subverts the reason for the fight entirely. Would he win in a fistfight with Doomsday? Obviously not.

Would he circumvent having to fight Doomsday at all? Probably.

jguy
2011-09-03, 01:35 PM
I had a friend who did a lot of RP involving dragons and they way she gushed about them really turned me off from them. They come off very Mary Sue-ish. The perfect beast and all. Lives thousands of years, incredibly intelligent, incredibly strong, inherently magical, able to change shapeshift at will. Sounds like something out of a fanfic honestly on how to make a character no one likes.

Cooler than dragons? Yaun-ti are awesome and you can involve a lot more of them in a game than a single dragon.

Humans are cooler than dragons because they tend to be ones that slay the high and mighty dragon. Usually with just a long, pointy stick and a horse.

For straight up fantasy creatures, The Slender Man ranks up there as cooler than dragons.

Xyk
2011-09-03, 01:56 PM
Except he specifically asked for coolest fantasy creature. dinosaurs and octopuses really don't qualify. Unless there's specific mythical individuals that might. Ditto for humans. :p

That'll teach me not to skim OPs.

Loljk, I'm not gonna stop.

Mono Vertigo
2011-09-03, 01:59 PM
You know what's cooler than dragons?
Karkadanns.
Violent carnivorous desert unicorns that impale you and drag your body around for no other reason than just because they can. Obscure, strong, and awesome. :smallamused:
For bonus points, have the dragon-slaying guy with a long, pointy stick mount a karkadann. Then, have the karkadann parade with the dragon corpse.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-09-03, 02:01 PM
I want to put a vote in for the Phoenix because I love Phoenixes so very much. But I have to be honest... I can't really think of anything cooler than dragons. See, the problem with the phoenix is there's basically one kind of phoenix. It rises from ashes and is on fire. The dragon has no such limitations.

Let's talk about the copper dragon. These guys can walk up walls. They breathe acid. But what's more important is they're the gnomes of dragons. I'm too lazy right now to say more on that, but the point is that every dragon type is different.

There really is a reason it's called Dungeons and Dragons, I guess.

PS I don't buy all this stuff about Cthulu and devils and aliens and such.. Completely alien life forms are really neat, eldritch abominations can be awesome, but for me there's something special about a being that isn't alien terror but awe inducing.

Mystic Muse
2011-09-03, 02:04 PM
I had a friend who did a lot of RP involving dragons and they way she gushed about them really turned me off from them. They come off very Mary Sue-ish. The perfect beast and all. Lives thousands of years, incredibly intelligent, incredibly strong, inherently magical, able to change shapeshift at will. Sounds like something out of a fanfic honestly on how to make a character no one likes.

Most dragons are also evil, and any campaign featuring them is likely to have them as the enemy, or an ally against something much stronger.

The "Lives thousands of years" thing is mostly irrelevant. other races can pull off the exact same thing, and some are straight up immortal.

I'll give you incredibly strong.

Incredibly intelligent depends on the variety. White dragons are incredibly stupid. They don't even get to the average human intelligence until they're adults, and short of items, they never go past the absolute peak of normal human intelligence.

Most dragons actually can't shapeshift at-will. In fact, I'm not aware of a single one that can. Out of the three main varieties (Chromatic, metallic and gem) only the metallics can naturally shapeshift, and even then only three times per day. I don't think any planar dragons can shapeshift.

So, they can be that bad, but they aren't necessarily that bad. Also, they won't be that bad in the average D&D game. Any dragon played by a player that isn't homebrew (like my monster classes) is going to be incredibly ineffective due to high RHD and LA in comparison to what they get.

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-03, 02:29 PM
I had a friend who did a lot of RP involving dragons and they way she gushed about them really turned me off from them. They come off very Mary Sue-ish. The perfect beast and all. Lives thousands of years, incredibly intelligent, incredibly strong, inherently magical, able to change shapeshift at will. Sounds like something out of a fanfic honestly on how to make a character no one likes.

This is the Twilight generation.

She obviously conveniently forgot the "EATS VIRGINS, BURNS VILLAGES, KILLS FOR KICKS" part of dragonkind. The traits you highlighted are exactly why they make for climactic villains.

On the other hand, I now want to see Edward Cullen in a duel with an ancient Red Dragon. Edward would GLARE INTENSELY at the Red Dragon, which would mistake him for a marble statue and put him on top of the pile of precious art.

druid91
2011-09-03, 02:48 PM
Elans.

A conversation between a Great Wyrm Red dragon and an Elan.

Elan:"Hey, dragon. Give me your treasure and leave now. And don't even think about trying to put up a fight.
Wyrm:"THE IMPUDENCE! I WILL SEE YOU ROASTED ALIVE HAIRLESS APE!"
(Dragon breaths fire. Elan gives a bored cough. The mountains the dragons lair is in Explode.)

Elan:"You'd think they'd learn to respect their elders. Ah well. It was almost an amusing diversion."

Coidzor
2011-09-03, 03:24 PM
Mechanus Bot is a pretty cool guy. I mean, seriously, the entire plane of Law is Optimus Prime.


Except he specifically asked for coolest fantasy creature. dinosaurs and octopuses really don't qualify. Unless there's specific mythical individuals that might. Ditto for humans. :p

Sounds like a job (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) for BATTLETITANS (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/82982.jpg). :smallamused:

SowZ
2011-09-03, 05:01 PM
No, the "Batman" Wizard refers to its predilection for ultimate preparedness, not because Batman can do magic. However, saying Batman would be killed by a few magic missiles was clearly exaggeration.

Are you saying you'd bet on Batman against, say, the World Born Dead? Or Iuz?

There's a reason he hangs out with Superman.

EDIT: Also Batman is a Fighter/Monk/Rogue with mental issues. I wouldn't bet on him in any fight above street level.

Given enough time to plan and work his resources, Batman could take on Orcus.

Kaeso
2011-09-03, 05:01 PM
Playground, help me out. My friend erroneously holds the belief that dragons are the coolest fantasy creatures around. Could you please provide me with creatures and arguments to disabuse him of his claim.

Thank you.

Chuck Norris

OverdrivePrime
2011-09-03, 05:05 PM
Don't you know who I am?

Uh oh... I'm going to be feeling extremely embarrassed if you're actually Famke Janssen. :smalleek:

(Sorry, no idea who you are besides a playground poster named Dr.Epic. Apologies if you're connected to the movie.)

Greenish
2011-09-03, 05:15 PM
Cool is a matter of opinion.You don't say. :smallamused:


To make another comparison, I'm sure you and your friend like different music, or at least like the same music to different degrees. Neither of you are wrong that one song is better or worse, since you're only arguing from your perspective.Ha, most of my friends just like utter garbage. They're obviously wrong. :smallwink:

SowZ
2011-09-03, 05:43 PM
Uh oh... I'm going to be feeling extremely embarrassed if you're actually Famke Janssen. :smalleek:

(Sorry, no idea who you are besides a playground poster named Dr.Epic. Apologies if you're connected to the movie.)

Don't be sorry! If a filmmaker who makes major movies can't take internet criticism they are either going to stay off the internet, get out of the business, or go crazy, anyway.

Traab
2011-09-03, 05:45 PM
Did I say he couldn't win? After all I've seen him win multiple times, including against things he has no right even existing in the same universe as. I've seen him get punched in the face by Darkseid multiple times and live, which suggests those Fighter d10s.

I'm saying I wouldn't bet on him.

Batman doesn't win fights against things bigger than him. He brings people who can, or subverts the reason for the fight entirely. Would he win in a fistfight with Doomsday? Obviously not.

Would he circumvent having to fight Doomsday at all? Probably.

Yeah, he would find a way to make doomsady trip and fall into a quick drying pit of liquid adamantium. He is now sealed in a 10 foot sphere of the hardest crap on earth and helpless. He then asks superman to show up and shot put him into the sun.

Coidzor
2011-09-03, 06:33 PM
Ha, most of my friends just like utter garbage. They're obviously wrong. :smallwink:

Hey now, you think you're paranoid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpRiSb_Ir-s)? :smalltongue:


Cool is a matter of opinion. What's cool or good to one person will not necessarily be the same to another.

After all, cool guys don't look at explosions. [/lonely island]

NikitaDarkstar
2011-09-04, 12:53 AM
Mechanus Bot is a pretty cool guy. I mean, seriously, the entire plane of Law is Optimus Prime.



Sounds like a job (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7097263&postcount=38) for BATTLETITANS (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mmiii_gallery/82982.jpg). :smallamused:
Okay I admit you got me there. But you probably could do that to white dragons at least. Red's would probably snag the armor and laugh at you.

Still ignoring the D&D dragons for a moment (and I'm totally staying out of asian myths as much as I can, that stuff is to darn confusing.) your normal everyday dragon sets the countryside on fire, steals cattle and torches the village for kicks. He might be convinced to not do it if he gets bribed with virgins.

Your really epic dragons help to destroy the world (Nidhögg, gnaws off the northern root of the world tree...), are big enough to encircle the entire world (The midgard serpent.. obviously a sea dragon), controls the weather (well bad weather), fight demons by shooting them with lightning, guard stuff for gods, control the water/seas... and the list goes on.

But for D&D's less epic take on dragons.... *thinks* nope, sorry. They're still the coolest. :p (okay, okay you're talking to the person with half an arm covered by a dragon, she sure as hell won't give in here.)

Sarco_Phage
2011-09-04, 12:55 AM
Given enough time to plan and work his resources, Batman could take on Orcus.

"Enough prep time to take on Orcus" is more than Bruce Wayne's natural lifespan.

Unless his plan consists of "throw the Justice League at him".

WildPyre
2011-09-04, 01:07 AM
"Enough prep time to take on Orcus" is more than Bruce Wayne's natural lifespan.

Unless his plan consists of "throw the Justice League at him".

Or judicious use of "Bat-Anti-Orcus Spray" Your earlier assessment of his classes neglected his levels in Artificer. :smallwink:

Hawkfrost000
2011-09-04, 01:38 AM
Honestly, he's a bit of a prick.

Dri**t or Cthulhu? :smallcool:

prufock
2011-09-04, 07:47 AM
Playground, help me out. My friend erroneously holds the belief that dragons are the coolest fantasy creatures around. Could you please provide me with creatures and arguments to disabuse him of his claim.

Thank you.

If you have to come to the forum because you can't think of a counter-argument, you've already lost. Dragons win.

Akulatraxis
2011-09-04, 09:22 AM
Beholders just feel far more iconic to me... I know its called D&D but I've always kind of felt D&B might be a bit more appropriate some of the time. But then I generally play in FR and when I DM there is always a Beholder stuck i nthere somewhere so that might explain it.

I just love the lore and look of the beholders and if written right they can make for pretty damn kool villains. Also the random element of all those crazy eye rays is always a laugh.

Claudius Maximus
2011-09-04, 10:46 AM
Eh, beholders don't do it for me. In my experience a beholder battle goes like this:

Round 1

1. PEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEWPEW

2. Is the party still alive?

3. Yes? Well the beholder's dead now.

Dragons, devils, and angels are the coolest things in D&D, pretty much in that order. In broader fantasy and mythology dragons are still pretty rad, though mortals and demigods in myths are also awesome. I guess that's a vote for "human" characters there.

As far as crazy creatures and monsters are concerned, I think your friend is right.

Akulatraxis
2011-09-04, 11:56 AM
I guess I see your point Claudius Maximus. I've seen a few Beholder battles go like that but I can't say I've ever run them that way. I enjoy all the crazy effects and if used well they can make for a fairly interesting combat encounter; locking down various forms of ability or movement. I don't think I have managed a single Beholder encounter without making up at least 5 of my own eye ray powers just to keep the players on their toes.

The main thing I find with Dragons, devils and angels is that they are overused. They are fairly staple in most fantasy. Though I guess they are used so often because they are so kool.

As a side note I also find various Cthulhuen/Far Realm horrors pretty epic. The idea of something that one can't understand because they just know more about how the universe works than you ever will is a very unnerving idea. Add to that the idea that: they may not even be evil despite all the killing/dismemberment they are partaking in and that in fact their very existence questions the very theory of good and evil is even kooler.

Rannath
2011-09-04, 01:34 PM
I've got a question. What dragons are you talking about? Fire breathing lizards with wings? Or anything big with scales?

In the first case Long(chinese)/Ryu(Japanese) are cooler than dragons. (eastern dragons are not actually dragons we just call them that). They're very much like dragons, except they're good and bad in classic fiction and they're living gods. (and the second case).

In the second case Re'em. Old Jewish folklore. There are two of them. They are the biggest things that exist, period, living at either pole. Once every hundred years they meet at the equater to mate. Then the female eats the male, give birth to one male and one female and is eaten in turn. Finally the kids split up and spend a hundred years growing.

Conners
2011-09-04, 10:15 PM
Batman doesn't win fights against things bigger than him. He brings people who can, or subverts the reason for the fight entirely. Would he win in a fistfight with Doomsday? Obviously not.

Would he circumvent having to fight Doomsday at all? Probably. You make that sound like there's something wrong about it.



Dri**t or Cthulhu? :smallcool: Drizzt, definitely Drizzt--or maybe he's just an idiot. All I know, is that he couldn't bear to kill a child rapist. This was after he had killed thousands of orcs, goblins, and other creatures, I'm pretty sure. I mean, super-racist, killing them for being orcs. Other characters also suffer from this in the books, to be fair (which is why I stopped reading them).

Antonok
2011-09-04, 10:30 PM
My vote goes to the Hecatoncheires. They destroy entire pantheons. Even in greek mythology they helped overthrow the Titans. Lets see batman or a dragon do that. :smalltongue:

Mystic Muse
2011-09-04, 11:34 PM
My vote goes to the Hecatoncheires. They destroy entire pantheons. Even in greek mythology they helped overthrow the Titans. Lets see batman or a dragon do that. :smalltongue:

You do realize you've just challenged Giantitp to an optimization contest right? They're going to win that.

Antonok
2011-09-05, 12:44 AM
You do realize you've just challenged Giantitp to an optimization contest right? They're going to win that.

I would actually like to see the results of that...

Dusk Eclipse
2011-09-05, 12:44 AM
My vote goes to the Hecatoncheires. They destroy entire pantheons. Even in greek mythology they helped overthrow the Titans. Lets see batman or a dragon do that. :smalltongue:
I have seen builds that can take it on and win at level 20.


You do realize you've just challenged Giantitp to an optimization contest right? They're going to win that.

I hate to say it; but Brilliant Gameologists have a much higher optimization abilities than the playground.

Mystic Muse
2011-09-05, 12:51 AM
I hate to say it; but Brilliant Gameologists have a much higher optimization abilities than the playground.

I'm not saying that Giantitp is the best. Just that I know they're capable of it.

big teej
2011-09-05, 01:55 AM
Playground, help me out. My friend erroneously holds the belief that dragons are the coolest fantasy creatures around. Could you please provide me with creatures and arguments to disabuse him of his claim.

Thank you.

ya know, I hate to sound antagonistic, and this is very likely going too.

you're wrong.

not in the sense that "there is no possibility of things being cooler than dragons"

if you can find something you feel is cooler, then there is.

"coolness" is a wholly relativistic matter. if he believes that dragons are the coolest thing ever, then all things being equal, they are the coolest thing ever.

for him.

allow me to give an example from my personal life of the self same issue.

many years ago, a character of mine was given "a giant lizard, except metal, and on fire"

I, being the beefy loving person that I am, visuallized something similar to a komodo dragon or similar monitor lizard.

the dm visualized.... a gecko, or that thing that obi-wan rides in episode 3

too me, monitor lizard = way cooler.
to him, gecko/starwars thing = way cooler.


he's welcome to believe that the gecko-thing is cooler.

he is NOT welcome ON ANY LEVEL to believe that his cool is better or more valid than my cool.

I'm pretty @#%3 sure that I know what pleases me asthetically better than he does.


to come back around to your situation.

he is welcome to believe that dragons are the coolest thing ever.
you are welcome to believe -other thing- is the coolest thing ever.

what NIETHER of you are allowed to do, is to try and assert the idea that your/his coolest thing ever is superior/better than his/your cool.


to step into the real world for a moment.
country music vs. heavy metal.

I am a die hard metal head, I could likely count the number of country songs I can even stand on my fingers.

for me, metal is better, because I enjoy it more.

for country girl down the road, listening to heavy metal will consistently give her head aches and upset her sensibilities.

country is better, for she enjoys it more.


metal and country, in and of themselves, are non-comparible in terms of merit, as they are matters of preference.

turkishproverb
2011-09-05, 02:06 AM
Gazebos.
:smallwink:

Zale
2011-09-05, 03:51 AM
Gazebos.
:smallwink:

Gazebos.

Very much so.

Especially Dread Gazebos.

Mastikator
2011-09-05, 04:33 AM
In any fantasy world that I've seen have dragons, they are the most power, wondrous, magical, wise and intelligent creatures. And they just look freaking majestic and awesome.
Short of setting-unique beings (such as most epics in D&D 3.5e), dragons are the only ones who can level entire empires single handedly.

turkishproverb
2011-09-05, 05:21 AM
Gazebos.

Very much so.

Especially Dread Gazebos.

Situated atop a grassy g/knoll?

Killer Angel
2011-09-05, 06:32 AM
Playground, help me out. My friend erroneously holds the belief that dragons are the coolest fantasy creatures around. Could you please provide me with creatures and arguments to disabuse him of his claim.


Hard to say... Succubi?
The only argument in favor is... well, pick some sexyleathery-succubus image. :smallwink:

ILM
2011-09-05, 07:22 AM
I have a particular fondness for Inevitables. Constructs that enforce the laws of the universe. My only regret is that they're not more powerful. If I ever introduce them in my campaign, you can bet your +1 flaming longsword that no sub-epic PCs will ever defeat the mechanical keepers of reality.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-05, 10:54 AM
I have a particular fondness for Inevitables. Constructs that enforce the laws of the universe. My only regret is that they're not more powerful. If I ever introduce them in my campaign, you can bet your +1 flaming longsword that no sub-epic PCs will ever defeat the mechanical keepers of reality.

Are you prepared to make all celestials epic challenges? What about fiends? Slaads?

Blisstake
2011-09-05, 01:34 PM
Jonathan Strange and Mister Norrell by Susanna Clarke, a gigantic epic that involves, at various times, the Duke of Wellington, Lord Byron, Napoleon, stuffy Victorian wizards, prophecies, and dancing.

Huh... I read a rather cumbersome book with only the title Jomathan Strange some time ago. It has sequels then? I think I'll go look this up...

And no, you don't get much cooler than Dragons, sorry.

Dr paradox
2011-09-05, 03:03 PM
medium sized, humanoid, epic level spellcasters. even if certain dragons are on par in threat level and/or magical talent, it's just way more impressive to see such a relatively slight frame wreathed in a shroud or twisting flame, rising into the air to face a worthy opponent, hands twirling like a conductor preparing to give the performance of a lifetime. with a dragon, you're going to be impressed. but with a humanoid, they've earned every scrap of the power needed to shake the foundations of the world.

also, why are people mixing up "Cool" with "Powerful?" sure, in a fistfight, Batman isn't going to beat, say, Orcus, but at least 8 times out of ten, the consensus is that Batman is cooler.

(Also, Batman's beaten superman before, without Kryptonite or a week's preparation. food for thought.)

Qwertystop
2011-09-05, 03:12 PM
DAGON! The demon from the abyss. He is knowledgeable, cunning and tactical, but will RIP YOUR FACE OFF.
Bonus points for being from the Cthulhu Mythos.

That's only one letter from Dragon.

SITB
2011-09-05, 05:22 PM
The original angels, straight out of the Old/New Testment.

Take for example the original Cherub:


(Ezekiel 1:5) Each of them had four faces and four wings, with straight feet with a sole like the sole of a calf's foot, and "hands of a man" under their wings. Each had four faces: The face of a man, the face of a lion on the right side, the face of an ox on the left side, and the face of an eagle. (Ezekiel 1:6-10) The Cherubims were beneath the likeness of a throne in Ezekiel 1:26, but the Seraphims, (with six wings each,)

Artist rendation. (http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/theholyhost330px.png) Quite diffrent from the guy in a diaper wielding a bow.

Or the Seraphim:


Revelation 4:8 "Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under his wings. Day and night they never stop saying: "Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.

Who need to cloak themselves with their wings otherwise humans will combust upon seeing their true form.

EvilDM
2011-09-05, 06:08 PM
Mine is a world without dragons. And most other traditional monsters like vampires, werebeasts, etc.

Almost everything I throw at a party is homemade.

Dimers
2011-09-05, 09:46 PM
Gazebos.

Very much so.

Especially Dread Gazebos.

I WOULD bring up dire gazebos, legendary gazebos and were-gazebos, but there's really only one thing to say here ...

Half-Dragon Gazebo. **shrug** :smallredface: :smallwink:

I'm not normally one for necromancy, but the epic beastie that's a Voltron made of thousands of corpses, THAT beats dragon in the coolness department any day.

Esprit15
2011-09-05, 10:40 PM
Nothing is cooler than dragons because anything cool can be made cooler by making it draconic. :smalltongue:

Zale
2011-09-05, 11:49 PM
I'm not normally one for necromancy, but the epic beastie that's a Voltron made of thousands of corpses, THAT beats dragon in the coolness department any day.

But..

What if they are dragon corpses?

turkishproverb
2011-09-06, 02:04 AM
I WOULD bring up dire gazebos, legendary gazebos and were-gazebos, but there's really only one thing to say here ...

Half-Dragon Gazebo. **shrug** :smallredface: :smallwink:

I'm not normally one for necromancy, but the epic beastie that's a Voltron made of thousands of corpses, THAT beats dragon in the coolness department any day.

Gazebo's don't become draconic. Dragons become Gazeboic.

ILM
2011-09-06, 03:52 AM
Are you prepared to make all celestials epic challenges? What about fiends? Slaads?
No. I'm sure you had a point though.

On the topic of dragons, I must say I prefer the beast-dragon archetype (swoops down, breathes fire or whatever, roars, claws you in two, and so on) as opposed to the erudite/social dragon who casts spells and speaks and polymorphs. Of course in D&D I don't really get a choice, but still.

Xiander
2011-09-06, 04:37 AM
Nothing is cooler than dragons because anything cool can be made cooler by making it draconic. :smalltongue:

Just thought i would say that i find this to be false. I find many things cooler than dragons. I also find that most of them do not become significantly cooler by adding wings and scale. They just become something else.

Mixt
2011-09-06, 05:00 AM
On the subject of epic uber-dragons.

Super Mega Ultra Darkness Dracolich.
Or SMUDD for short.

It's the size of a small solar system.
And it ate the goddamn sun.
And it instantly regenerates all damage done to it.
DARKNESS DEVOURS ALL!

Didn't stop it from being kersploded by the Great Dragon Of Prophecy though.
Yep, it was beaten by another dragon.


In other news...Nugri.
Just...Nugri.
That thing is hax OP.
Stupid Eldritch horror dragon, quit eating my universe!

JonRG
2011-09-06, 10:49 AM
I'm not normally one for necromancy, but the epic beastie that's a Voltron made of thousands of corpses, THAT beats dragon in the coolness department any day.


Corpse crab? Or did you mean some other corpsey abomination?

Personally, I like dragons. *shrug*

sirveaux
2011-09-06, 11:32 AM
Don't you know who I am?

... Bullet-Tooth Tony?

Back on topic, it's not called "Dungeons & Something Else." When in doubt, I gotta side with the eponymous monster.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-06, 11:32 AM
No. I'm sure you had a point though.Inevitables are the enforcerers of law. Fiends are the bringers of evil. Celestials are the keepers of good. Slaads are the exemplars of chaos. Why does law get to be special?

Dimers
2011-09-06, 04:10 PM
But.. What if they are dragon corpses?

When rotting flesh is merely rotting flesh, being rotting draconic flesh doesn't help. A dracolich or an individual undead dragon is in fact more awesome than other undead (it's scientifically proven!) but that special something is lost when it's just a glob of a zillion bodies. Yes, even if they're ALL draconic.


Corpse crab? Or did you mean some other corpsey abomination?

It wasn't "corpse crab", but I can't seem to find the darn thing now, sorry. Thought it was in ELH -- no luck.

MightyPirate
2011-09-06, 04:15 PM
I'm always hearing that Gandalf is an outsider with spell like abilities so surely that counts right?

If not I give a +1 to Golems.

Zale
2011-09-06, 07:24 PM
When rotting flesh is merely rotting flesh, being rotting draconic flesh doesn't help. A dracolich or an individual undead dragon is in fact more awesome than other undead (it's scientifically proven!) but that special something is lost when it's just a glob of a zillion bodies. Yes, even if they're ALL draconic.

Consider how big something made form a few thousand dragon corpses would be.


So, that would impress me more than a few thousand measly human corpses.

Cerlis
2011-09-06, 08:03 PM
Consider how big something made form a few thousand dragon corpses would be.


So, that would impress me more than a few thousand measly human corpses.

and lets not forget that a dragon's scales, bones, and teeth are usually stronger/harder/sharper than a metal sword.

unless you liquify those things, anything made out of dragon would be better than most any other corpse. heck you can even amplify spells with dragons blood, eyeballs, organs, ect...

Knaight
2011-09-06, 08:26 PM
Inevitables are the enforcerers of law. Fiends are the bringers of evil. Celestials are the keepers of good. Slaads are the exemplars of chaos. Why does law get to be special?

Why should all of them be even on a person to person scale? Inevitables are the guardians of order itself, carefully constructed machines that are far smarter and far more capable than mere mortal beings. Moreover, its not as if they have to be the only thing of law, they can be rare and powerful, so in addition to the very powerful, very special Inevitables one can certainly have other mechanical things. Say, Modrons for instance. Slaads meanwhile make more sense as numerous, highly varied beings, of lesser power.

Plus, this assumes that you have to have the whole law-chaos, good-evil extraplanar mirrors to begin with. Why? Why not have the incredibly powerful Inevitables as guardians of order, backed up by everything from lesser robots (such as Modrons) to organizations of humans. You don't have to keep Slaad around to do this either, or keep anything else as they are, you could have angels as the highest servants of the various gods if they stay, you could have no demons, but only evil spirits, some of whom have possessed and morphed various material beings. So on and so forth.

tl;dr Why not have Inevitables be very special, and why bother keeping the whole 4 varieties of similar extraplanar beings deal to begin with?

druid91
2011-09-06, 08:33 PM
Nothing is cooler than dragons because anything cool can be made cooler by making it draconic. :smalltongue:

Nope. First of all draconic Elans make no sense.

Second of all they are made no cooler by being draconic. In fact their coolness is lessened.

Qwertystop
2011-09-06, 08:37 PM
Nope. First of all draconic Elans make no sense.

Second of all they are made no cooler by being draconic. In fact their coolness is lessened.

Just take a Half-Dragon Human and make it an Elan, instead of a normal Human.

I agree that makes them less cool though. Part of the awesome is that they look mostly normal.

Conners
2011-09-06, 08:39 PM
you could have no demons, but only evil spirits Demon
noun
1. an evil spirit; devil or fiend.

Mystic Muse
2011-09-06, 08:41 PM
Demon
noun
1. an evil spirit; devil or fiend.

So, you're being nitpicky by using the dictionary definition instead of the D&D definition, when Knaight was clearly using the D&D definition,to do...what exactly?

Conners
2011-09-06, 09:06 PM
I have developed a habit of correcting people. Sometimes I use it to be sarcastic, or even sardonic. This is one of the cases where I just wanted to point out, "good demon" is an oxymoron, and an "evil spirit" means a "demon".
This is something that is commonly misunderstood, which makes me feel stronger about correcting it.

Of course, the DnD writers probably didn't own a dictionary :smallbiggrin:.

Mystic Muse
2011-09-06, 09:09 PM
I have developed a habit of correcting people. Sometimes I use it to be sarcastic, or even sardonic. This is one of the cases where I just wanted to point out, "good demon" is an oxymoron, and an "evil spirit" means a "demon".
This is something that is commonly misunderstood, which makes me feel stronger about correcting it.

Of course, the DnD writers probably didn't own a dictionary :smallbiggrin:.

Considering their definition of "Always" when it comes to alignment, no, no they didn't.:smalltongue:

Yourshallowpal
2011-09-06, 09:29 PM
If you're a GM? Whatever made all the dragons in the world disappear is cooler than they are.

That said, I'm partial to devils.

1) Trickster villains, who can usually shape-shift. They're ANYWHERE.

2) Real world mythological counterparts, which can be researched for fun/character ideas/story ideas. CS Lewis, Levantine mythology, Roman mythology, contemporary pop culture, the [fantasy] Illuminati, etc.

Knaight
2011-09-07, 02:54 AM
I have developed a habit of correcting people. Sometimes I use it to be sarcastic, or even sardonic. This is one of the cases where I just wanted to point out, "good demon" is an oxymoron, and an "evil spirit" means a "demon".

See also: D&D definition. Good demon is an oxymoron, "good spirit" is not, and D&D demons are all physical beings to the point where "spirit" is not an apt descriptor.

ILM
2011-09-07, 04:25 AM
Inevitables are the enforcerers of law. Fiends are the bringers of evil. Celestials are the keepers of good. Slaads are the exemplars of chaos. Why does law get to be special?
Ah ok, gotcha. Not to derail the thread too much, but there are a few arguments I could make:
- The universe has laws, which IMO fundamentally tips the scales towards lawful. There are chaotic creatures and effects, sure, but the way the D&D universe works is governed by laws: things fall down, light travels in straight lines, etc etc. Good and Evil exist in this universe but aren't constituting elements. So in that sense, I feel that there's grounds for having Law being "stronger", for lack of a better term, than the others.
- Inevitables are enforcers of the laws of the universe. It's not just "you're evil, I shall smite thee", it's "you've broken one of the laws of reality and are about to kill your grandfather, this cannot happen". I dunno, sounds more important I guess.
- I see your point though, and maybe I should have taken a different angle: I don't mind so much that there are low-ish CR Inevitables to deal with minor offenses and/or weak offenders. What I have a problem with, however, is that there's no Inevitable above CR 15. The three vanilla Inevitables deal with fugitives, oathbreakers and those seeking to extend their lives. That's pretty unimpressive as far as "enforc[ing] the natural laws of the universe" goes. Celestials and Fiends have CR 20 creatures: the heavy bruisers. Inevitables don't. I find that weird.

Lord Raziere
2011-09-07, 04:30 AM
but there is magic.....which bends the laws.....thus actually equalizing law and chaos because there are people running around using magic to alter/make exceptions to those laws on a daily basis. which makes the laws closer to guidelines.

Greenish
2011-09-07, 05:35 AM
I'm always hearing that Gandalf is an outsider with spell like abilities so surely that counts right?Gandalf is a maia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maia), like Balrog.

Dimers
2011-09-07, 07:12 AM
Gandalf is a maia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maia), like Balrog.

I believe you want http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maia_%28Middle-earth%29 instead.

Vonotar
2011-09-07, 09:55 AM
The Xixecal? Hangs around with White Dragons though.

GoblinArchmage
2011-09-08, 02:47 AM
- The universe has laws, which IMO fundamentally tips the scales towards lawful.

I would argue that the universe does not have laws. All of the "laws" of physics are just the creations of humans attempting to understand the meaningless and nonsensical thing that is the universe.

As for the actual topic of this thread, though, does Typhon count as a dragon? He is pretty damn cool, considering that most of the Greek pantheon ran away and hid as soon as he appeared. Also, they couldn't kill him and had to imprison him under Mt. Etna in Sicily. That's pretty awesome, if you ask me. Oh, and his parents, if I recall correctly, were Gaia (admittedly not particularly awesome) and Tartarus (totally awesome), meaning that he was spawned, in part, from the darkest depths of the Underworld itself.

Conners
2011-09-08, 06:22 AM
You sound depressed :smallfrown:.


Well, it depends... how awesome are the Greek gods? From memory, they whine all the time, are petty, changeable as heck, and have nothing better to do than keep bothering humans over something they said.

Thyrian
2011-09-08, 07:21 AM
Your friend may simply be going through a "Dragon Phase" it happens to most players, you know that time when you being hoarding any book that has DRAGON as a primary word in its title?

The Dragon Phase varies greatly among players, some people simply need their 'hoard' of Draconian literature are a capable of moving on, others upon acquiring said hoard only revel in their books and sink deeper into the Dragon phase. Dragons are undeniably cool but his viewpoint on them is probably undefined, get him to 'classify' what a Dragon is, once he's forced to obtain a 'solid' image of a cool Dragon the phase will eventually wind to a close. Get him to classify what 'type' of Dragon he's running, are they sentient? Is there view point defined by their color? Are they immune to magic or capable of throwing it around? If they are sentient is it above ours, equal to humans or simply alien? Once the Dragon is defined it loses the glistening sheen of potentiality.

Agree with him that the Dragon is Iconic, however there's so much.. more in the realm of fantasy.

turkishproverb
2011-09-08, 10:02 PM
"Dragon Phase"

Sounds like a JRPG. :smalltongue:

GoblinArchmage
2011-09-08, 11:50 PM
You sound depressed :smallfrown:.


Don't worry, I'm not. I'm just into Existentialism. I actually love the idea that the universe doesn't have any meaning, because that means I get to give it whatever meaning I want it to have.



Well, it depends... how awesome are the Greek gods? From memory, they whine all the time, are petty, changeable as heck, and have nothing better to do than keep bothering humans over something they said.

All of that is true about them. The Greek gods were, for the most part, extremely nasty and possibly sociopathic individuals. However, they were usually pretty overconfident, which means that even they would have had to acknowledge the superior badassery of Typhon.

Cerlis
2011-09-09, 04:06 AM
actually i do think Gods (and simular beings) are a good example. When i think Bahamut vs Pelor i am unimpressed by Bahamut's dragonness. the whole point of a dragon is to be this superior magical being, but a dragon god is pretty much just a lizard version of a God. and so when a normal god and a dragon god fight its pretty much just Lizard vs Man, and so a God's powers and magic weapons and their cool look wins out, while even if the dragon god has powers he doesnt have the "bling" and so, again. "just" a big fracking lizard god.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3589/3334503095_4b21157b74.jpg

http://kyon.pl/static/img/remiq.net_14455.jpg

http://assets.m80im.com/resources/magic/lorwyn/art/105381_CN.jpg

http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/tdomf/28472/Akroma_Angel_of_Fury_Daren_Bader.thumbnail.jpg

Ps. all cooler than dragons imo

Conners
2011-09-09, 06:12 AM
Don't worry, I'm not. I'm just into Existentialism. I actually love the idea that the universe doesn't have any meaning, because that means I get to give it whatever meaning I want it to have.


All of that is true about them. The Greek gods were, for the most part, extremely nasty and possibly sociopathic individuals. However, they were usually pretty overconfident, which means that even they would have had to acknowledge the superior badassery of Typhon. No, you wouldn't. It'd just be pretending it has meanings you like.


More psychopathic, really. They don't go to much effort to hide their crimes.
Even while hiding for their lives, they might still maintain the fact that they are superior to Typhon--why and how? People manage those things... Just look at politicians.

Terazul
2011-09-09, 07:46 AM
Beasts of Resplendent Liquids.

Dinosaurs. That piss heroin.

Also the Five-Metal Shrike.

drakir_nosslin
2011-09-09, 01:22 PM
Asmodeus. 'Nuff said.

Cerlis
2011-09-09, 09:13 PM
also i bet xenomorphs would end up owning dragons. Sure maybe many would die, but like Xenomorphs do, they'd eventually get the dragon(s) in a compromising positon and then tear them a new one and make them their bitches (literally) and make fun Dragon Xenomorphs.

Tanuki Tales
2011-09-09, 09:18 PM
I personally like Slaadi far more than Dragons.

But then again, anything that WoTC kept as Product Identity is probably cooler than a Dragon (except maybe Hellfire Wyrms. Love those things).

Das Platyvark
2011-09-09, 09:24 PM
Vampires. They are too strong, too fast, too beautiful, too smart, and they are cooler than you no matter what.

But set fire to them and they burn even better than the rest of us too.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-09, 09:35 PM
The only things cooler than dragons are unique characters/monsters/beings. And they have to compete with this guy.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_e7yDPw8738Q/SagRLOgwoNI/AAAAAAAAAnQ/Oy5oEtIh9e8/s400/Ashardalon.jpg

Chilingsworth
2011-09-09, 10:17 PM
When rotting flesh is merely rotting flesh, being rotting draconic flesh doesn't help. A dracolich or an individual undead dragon is in fact more awesome than other undead (it's scientifically proven!) but that special something is lost when it's just a glob of a zillion bodies. Yes, even if they're ALL draconic.



It wasn't "corpse crab", but I can't seem to find the darn thing now, sorry. Thought it was in ELH -- no luck.

Sounds like the ... Charnel Hound? I think it's in one of the later MM's maybe III or IV?

Antonok
2011-09-09, 10:20 PM
The only things cooler than dragons are unique characters/monsters/beings. And they have to compete with this guy.


Alright. I see your challange and raise you this horrid little beasty:

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g430/Antonok/kitty2.jpg
Cute and Cool.


So cute its scary ain't it?

Chilingsworth
2011-09-09, 10:22 PM
Ah ok, gotcha. Not to derail the thread too much, but there are a few arguments I could make:
- The universe has laws, which IMO fundamentally tips the scales towards lawful. There are chaotic creatures and effects, sure, but the way the D&D universe works is governed by laws: things fall down, light travels in straight lines, etc etc. Good and Evil exist in this universe but aren't constituting elements. So in that sense, I feel that there's grounds for having Law being "stronger", for lack of a better term, than the others.
- Inevitables are enforcers of the laws of the universe. It's not just "you're evil, I shall smite thee", it's "you've broken one of the laws of reality and are about to kill your grandfather, this cannot happen". I dunno, sounds more important I guess.
- I see your point though, and maybe I should have taken a different angle: I don't mind so much that there are low-ish CR Inevitables to deal with minor offenses and/or weak offenders. What I have a problem with, however, is that there's no Inevitable above CR 15. The three vanilla Inevitables deal with fugitives, oathbreakers and those seeking to extend their lives. That's pretty unimpressive as far as "enforc[ing] the natural laws of the universe" goes. Celestials and Fiends have CR 20 creatures: the heavy bruisers. Inevitables don't. I find that weird.

Check the Fiend Folio for two very powerful inevitables, one that protects time, one that protects the dieties.

Reaper_Monkey
2011-09-10, 05:03 AM
Alright. I see your challange and raise you this horrid little beasty:

http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g430/Antonok/kitty2.jpg


My god that's sanity bending! Aarrrruuggggghh! *must scritch belly*

In other news, if you really must insist dragons are the coolest creature you can have - then I raise with a TAURIC-dragon! All the power and cool of a dragon, now with a human face (and other upper body anatomy for those inclined) to talk to. You even get your own preference of humanoid torso, for those who just cant stand humans being cooler than elves or dwarves etc...

turkishproverb
2011-09-10, 06:37 AM
Check the Fiend Folio for two very powerful inevitables, one that protects time, one that protects the dieties.

Hmmm...

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l0ufbluR2X1qa7yfto1_400.jpg

Chilingsworth
2011-09-10, 10:40 AM
Hmmm...

http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l0ufbluR2X1qa7yfto1_400.jpg

Yeah, he's cooler than dragons, too.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-10, 10:53 AM
My god that's sanity bending! Aarrrruuggggghh! *must scritch belly*

In other news, if you really must insist dragons are the coolest creature you can have - then I raise with a TAURIC-dragon! All the power and cool of a dragon, now with a human face (and other upper body anatomy for those inclined) to talk to. You even get your own preference of humanoid torso, for those who just cant stand humans being cooler than elves or dwarves etc...

Still a dragon. And I think every dragon but the younger whites can speak common.

Antonok
2011-09-10, 11:11 AM
There was one monster I used as DM that was the single coolest encounter I've done. It was a Curst from MoF with the Evolved templete out of LM.

This thing looked just like a human, could not die, and had a 5% chance to just do random things. Very disheartening when an ubercharger build drops it in 1 hit, then it gets back up and starts dancing.

The only actual weakness this thing had was its utterly destroyed by a remove curse spell.

drakir_nosslin
2011-09-10, 01:08 PM
The only things cooler than dragons are unique characters/monsters/beings. And they have to compete with this guy.

Meh, wasn't he killed if in an adventure somewhere? Like most of the dragons that are given names it's just so that you know what you slay.
Not impressed.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-10, 01:12 PM
Meh, wasn't he killed if in an adventure somewhere? Like most of the dragons that are given names it's just so that you know what you slay.
Not impressed.

He replaced his heart with a balor.

drakir_nosslin
2011-09-10, 01:20 PM
He replaced his heart with a balor.

After he had been slain by a NPC Druid, yes? He was killed again, by the PC:s.

Cool, he got killed two times.

Randomguy
2011-09-10, 09:47 PM
Acid-breathing sharks with lasers on their heads come pretty close. Just add scorching ray as an at will SLA to an acidborn shark. Or, instead of scorching ray, make it rainbow blast (or rainbow beam, whichever) so that they shoot rainbow lasers.

Qwertystop
2011-09-10, 09:55 PM
Acid-breathing sharks with lasers on their heads come pretty close. Just add scorching ray as an at will SLA to an acidborn shark. Or, instead of scorching ray, make it rainbow blast (or rainbow beam, whichever) so that they shoot rainbow lasers.

Prismatic Spray, but a line!

Tanuki Tales
2011-09-11, 09:09 AM
Can anyone think of any cool Non-template Undead or non-template Incorporeal creatures?

They can't be Half-Dragons.

*.*.*.*
2011-09-11, 10:34 AM
Angels of Decay are pretty Hoss, as well as Atropals(squick), Wraiths are awesomely incorporeal, and a multitude of other stuff. Those who transversed and conquered death are at least as cool as dragons.

Antonok
2011-09-11, 10:36 AM
Can anyone think of any cool Non-template Undead or non-template Incorporeal creatures?

They can't be Half-Dragons.

Well just the Curst by itself can only be killed by a remove curse spell (the templete was just for fast healing mostly).

The only other monster's I can think of that would come remotely close are:

The Nishruu (MoF pg. 67): These things are just evil. Any spell cast at it gets absorbed and turned into permanent HP, it supresses the effects of magical equipment that come in contact with it (including ARTIFACTS), drains charges from any equipment that has charges, and makes spellcasters randomly lose one prepared spell. All this on top of DR 20/magic.

The Greater Doppleganger: They don't just look like you, they are you. They're like the Borg on drugs :smalleek:.

Lhurgyof
2011-09-11, 11:09 AM
We have one of these in our group. He's all about dragons. Every campaign is centered on dragons, every character is a dragon born or half dragon. Blech.

Well, as for things cooler than a dragon... Illithids. Illithids and Psurlons, really. Talk about super powerful and bad ass.

Metahuman1
2011-09-11, 11:18 AM
I'm Nominating Titans. There so awesome they kick the crap out of GODS!

And some Deity's are also awesome sauce!

Tanuki Tales
2011-09-11, 12:29 PM
We have one of these in our group. He's all about dragons. Every campaign is centered on dragons, every character is a dragon born or half dragon. Blech.

Well, as for things cooler than a dragon... Illithids. Illithids and Psurlons, really. Talk about super powerful and bad ass.

Except Illithids and Psurlons can be Half-Dragons.

Same with Titans.

Reaper_Monkey
2011-09-11, 12:51 PM
Except Illithids and Psurlons can be Half-Dragons.

Same with Titans.

Okay this excuse is getting old. Just because they can be, does not mean they are cooler when they are - there are a lot of things that are much cooler when left alone.
Sorry if this seems like a direct rant against you Bandraesar, it isn't, you were just the last one to repeat this statement.

Lhurgyof
2011-09-11, 05:38 PM
Okay this excuse is getting old. Just because they can be, does not mean they are cooler when they are - there are a lot of things that are much cooler when left alone.
Sorry if this seems like a direct rant against you Bandraesar, it isn't, you were just the last one to repeat this statement.

I agree. Illithid > Half-dragon illithid. Same for psurlons.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-11, 05:50 PM
I agree. Illithid > Half-dragon illithid. Same for psurlons.

What about a half-illithid dragon? Because a great wyrm red dragon half-illithid is Cthulhu minus a couple templates!

Das Platyvark
2011-09-11, 06:13 PM
What about a half-illithid dragon? Because a great wyrm red dragon half-illithid is Cthulhu minus a couple templates!
Phool!I can't believe I just spelled it like that.
Cthulhu is a GREEN Dragon, with levels in psion!

*.*.*.*
2011-09-11, 06:19 PM
Cthulhu is a Paragon Pseudonatural Brainstealer Dragon(Dragon 337)

turkishproverb
2011-09-11, 07:08 PM
I agree. Illithid > Half-dragon illithid. Same for psurlons.

Same with Gazebos. :smallbiggrin:

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-11, 07:23 PM
Cthulhu is a Half-illithid Paragon Pseudonatural Brainstealer Dragon(Dragon 337)

FTFY. :smallwink:

*.*.*.*
2011-09-11, 08:09 PM
FTFY. :smallwink:

Shush you, it already is part Illithid.

Cerlis
2011-09-11, 08:59 PM
Okay this excuse is getting old. Just because they can be, does not mean they are cooler when they are - there are a lot of things that are much cooler when left alone.
Sorry if this seems like a direct rant against you Bandraesar, it isn't, you were just the last one to repeat this statement.

I agree with this, some things like Hydras or Tarrasque...if it where half dragon it would seem forced and almost stupid. either one of those is in my opinion at least as cool as a dragon. and a half dragon version would be completely uncool.

Tanuki Tales
2011-09-12, 09:23 AM
The point of the matter is, that if someone is utterly sold on the concept of Dragons being the coolest thing in all of fiction, you can't try to bring to the table a creature that can be made into a Half-Dragon or has a half-variant template of itself than can be added to a Dragon.

The person would just point at this fact and say this proves they're right in thinking Dragons are cooler because as cool as the thing you brought to the table is, it can either be "made cooler" by making it a Dragon or a Dragon can be "made cooler" by making it part of that creature, but either way this hybrid is "inherently cooler" than the original creature because it's part Dragon.

So get annoyed or frustrated if you want, you haven't brought up a successful stepping point against the idea of Dragons being "supremely cooler" since it can just be made a Dragon or be added onto a Dragon.

At least with a creature that can't become a Half-Dragon or doesn't have a template version that can be added onto a Dragon you can't be dismissed by people who only see "the supreme coolness of Dragons" offhandedly like that. Those folks would then have to either prove why they think Dragons are cooler than what you brought or would resort to the childish, "Dragons are still cooler".

This isn't really a "fight" you can win though, just some stances are more easily defended than others.

*.*.*.*
2011-09-12, 09:57 AM
Dragons are a tad bit lame, as an equally aged human would probably(by a DnD sense)be quite stronger. At 1,000+ years dragons are scary, but a human of equal age would be a world-conquering Lich who has put down many Dragons in it's time. This is true only from early-mid to mid levels though, as dragons are pretty hoss at early levels. This also only applies to spellcasters.....



So Spellcasters>Dragons?

Tanuki Tales
2011-09-12, 10:01 AM
Dragons are a tad bit lame, as an equally aged human would probably(by a DnD sense) quite stronger. At 1,000+ years dragons are scary, but a human of equal age would be a world-conquering Lich who has put down many Dragons in it's time. This is true only from early-mid to mid levels though, as dragons are pretty hoss at early levels.

This is true, but does not factor in the irrationality of the concept of the OP.

We can prove to a shadow of a doubt that mechanically humans are more powerful and impressive singularly than nearly any Dragon ever, but this doesn't faze or defeat "Dragons are the coolest".

You can't win this "fight".

And as I said, that "cool" human can be "made cooler" by making him/her a Half-Dragon Lich.

Speaking of....Eberron has one of those as one of the settings default most powerful characters. :smallbiggrin:

Lhurgyof
2011-09-12, 11:32 AM
The point of the matter is, that if someone is utterly sold on the concept of Dragons being the coolest thing in all of fiction, you can't try to bring to the table a creature that can be made into a Half-Dragon or has a half-variant template of itself than can be added to a Dragon.

The person would just point at this fact and say this proves they're right in thinking Dragons are cooler because as cool as the thing you brought to the table is, it can either be "made cooler" by making it a Dragon or a Dragon can be "made cooler" by making it part of that creature, but either way this hybrid is "inherently cooler" than the original creature because it's part Dragon.

So get annoyed or frustrated if you want, you haven't brought up a successful stepping point against the idea of Dragons being "supremely cooler" since it can just be made a Dragon or be added onto a Dragon.

At least with a creature that can't become a Half-Dragon or doesn't have a template version that can be added onto a Dragon you can't be dismissed by people who only see "the supreme coolness of Dragons" offhandedly like that. Those folks would then have to either prove why they think Dragons are cooler than what you brought or would resort to the childish, "Dragons are still cooler".

This isn't really a "fight" you can win though, just some stances are more easily defended than others.


I wasn't really trying to aid in his argument, I was more stating my opinion.

Although making something half dragon does NOT always make something cooler. That just screams fallacy. I don't think each and every creature is cooler with wings and fire breath...

Roderick_BR
2011-09-12, 12:08 PM
Dinosaurs are cooler because they are not fictional. Octopuses are also super cool. They can shapechange, plus their limbs act independently and together simultaneously. Also not fictional. In my eyes, the real-life factor is pretty significant.
And how does not being fictional counts as cool?
Maybe we could mention trees. They are colossal, have high armor class due to it's bark, and have hundreds of arms and branches to make hundreds of attacks per turn.
And they just move VERY slowly so you think they can't move.

bigjeff5
2011-09-12, 01:45 PM
You know what's cooler than Dragons? Adventurers!

Yeah, any six adventurers of appropriate caliber can beat a dragon, as evidenced by how many dragons are slain in D&D.

I like dragons and all, but seriously, they are just big lizards with wings and fire breath. All the extra badness others have mentioned (celestial dragon, dragon lich, etc.) have human or humanoid analogues, and the human version pretty much always came first.

As soon as you get heavy into magic, the physical size and strength of the dragons is meaningless. Therefore, a celestial dragon is just a dragon shaped celestial being - not really all that special unless you like the shape of dragons. The same is true of all other types of dragons. The further their "specialness" is from the physical, the less it matters that it's a dragon.

My favorite dragons are the traditional (obviously not really D&D) dragons - smart, but not necessarily as intelligent as humans, big, strong, and breathe fire or acid. Dragons like those in G. R. R. Martin's "A Song Of Ice And Fire" series.

For "cooler than dragons" I go with the Valheru of Feist's Midkemia mythos - aka "The Dragon Lords". Human sized and shaped, godlike powers, conquered the universe and kept dragons as pets (they were convenient transportation across the cosmos). The dragons in this mythos were about as ridiculously powerful physically and magically as any I've ever read about - being able to shape shift, teleport across the universe, and work stronger magic than any mortal. The Valheru dominated them by being overwhelmingly more powerful physically and magically, not by sorcery or other trickery.

Dragons have to be anthropomorphized to be anything more than big nasty lizards; dragons act like humans, humans don't act like dragons (same with the majority of the creatures listed in this thread).

Really though, if someone is hung up on dragons, they aren't going to get over it until they get over it; you'll never win an argument on the subject with them until they do.

Reaper_Monkey
2011-09-12, 02:22 PM
The person would just point at this fact and say this proves they're right in thinking Dragons are cooler because as cool as the thing you brought to the table is, it can either be "made cooler" by making it a Dragon or a Dragon can be "made cooler" by making it part of that creature, but either way this hybrid is "inherently cooler" than the original creature because it's part Dragon.

...

Those folks would then have to either prove why they think Dragons are cooler than what you brought or would resort to the childish, "Dragons are still cooler".

No, you see because my point is that you can't just say, "oh, but that just makes a dragon cooler because you can add dragon to that". It doesn't work that way, something don't become cooler just because you added your magic sauce to the mix.

Its like person A asking what food is better than pizza, and person B pointing out that burgers are pretty awesome only for person A to reply with "oh, but you can have all the things you can put in a burger on a pizza, so pizzas are still the best because they have so much versatility and their form is just so epic".
Okay, they might have a point, but then when person B says "Well ice-cream is also really yummy and comes in many flavours for maximum versatility, I think ice-cream is the best food" person A cannot then reply with "well you *could* put ice-cream on pizza if you wanted" because although you can noone in their right mind would. Nor can they say "Oh but you can eat ice-cream with pizza!" because it defeats the point in asking for a better food if you always try to add the original one to everything!


This isn't really a "fight" you can win though, just some stances are more easily defended than others.

At the end of the day, although a Dragon can have many forms and many styles and many flavours with different powers and potent abilities - there is a limit to how far being a "dragon" can be stretched.

If all you're doing is saying "well yes, its basically an Elder God but its sort of in the shape of a dragon" then you've lost the point that made it a Dragon in the first place, and thus have disproved the argument. No matter how yummy Dragon (or pizza) is, you cant add it to everything and expect it to produce an edible dish.

Tanuki Tales
2011-09-13, 11:17 AM
*sighs* And people continue to fail to see that it doesn't matter if the Half-Dragon abomination or Dragon Abomination is actually cool to anyone other than the "Dragons are supremely cool" folks; the "Dragons are supremely cool" folks are still going to dismiss any attempts at making a dialogue that doesn't contain "Dragons are supremely cool". Even more readily if the creature can be made into a Dragon or added onto a Dragon.

You can't argue opinion or logic against irrationality, but you can at least try to make the arguement require more thought or time from the "Dragons are supremely cool" folks by making their opposition something that can't be dragonified.

Cerlis
2011-09-13, 11:45 AM
yes yall are acting like Brend is actually arguing the point that making something part dragon falls into the area of "Dragons are cool".

when what he is saying is if someone is stuck on the fact that "Dragons are the coolest" because "its a g0ddang dragon!" then that persons sense of "Cool" is equal to "is a dragon"

So it doesnt matter what "logic" or "your opinion" says or differs. You will never win.

Its essentially "its better because it is" and a serious case of If you are arguing about it in the first place then the persons mind cant be changed.

------------------

Though i disagree in one regard. and that if you where dealing with someone who had this illogic but actually had a brain enough to listen and potentially overcome his fanboyness, then you could point out how Not being part dragon makes him cooler. For example, If Beowulf was a half dragon he wouldnt have been as cool. an Ogreish Firebreathing, metal scaled, super strong human wrestling grendle into the ground and tearing off his arm isnt impressive. Of COURSE he won, he's half dragon. But beowulf was an (impressive) human whos only strengths where that what he trained and taught himself. Thus him defeating an opponent that should be superior in all ways is impressive.

a different but simular example being that a Killer cannibalistic Barbarian Pixie who slays giants and eats them is cooler than a Killer cannibalistic barbarian giant who slays giants and eats them.


but really it all matters in how fargone they are. if Dragon= cool in their eyes there will be no changing that.

bigjeff5
2011-09-13, 12:29 PM
And most of us are saying "That's just lame, here's what we think is cooler."

Isn't that the point of the thread?

Sure, the OP will never ACTUALLY win this argument, but that's because the person he is arguing with has a pretty imagination-limiting hangup on dragons.

That doesn't mean we can't keep talking about what we think is cooler than dragons.

And for all the "Yeah but, it can be half-dragon too! Dragons win!" for me, the combination automatically drops at least a couple of points on the coolness scale for almost every creature. It's just trite and unimaginative, which really takes away much of the coolness. (For the record, hamburger-pizza does this to me - love pizza, love burgers, but a burger pizza? Lame) Some combinations downright plummet. For example, I think a half-dragon angel is just retarded. If someone tried to seriously play a character like that around me I'd probably just end up making fun of him and his character all night.

Maybe constant ridicule will help you win your argument? It may cost you a friend though, so use at your own risk. But really, if he thinks Dragons are the be-all end-all he can't be that great anyway. (I'm kidding! Maybe.)

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-13, 12:46 PM
For example, I think a half-dragon angel is just retarded.

That's why there are half-celestial dragons. :smallbiggrin:

Tanuki Tales
2011-09-13, 12:54 PM
The point of this thread was to address what was in the OP, not for each and every Playgrounder to say what they thought was cool and how stupid just slapping half-dragon on anything or just making a Dragon half-something else is.

The concept of the OP was that he was trying to make a "Dragons are supremely cool" person to see "the error of their ways" and was asking for aide to prove to that person that they are "wrong".

That is honestly a fool's errand because chances are they can't be shown otherwise logically (otherwise this thread probably wouldn't have been made in the first place) and is the wrong way to approach things since you really shouldn't be shoving your own opinions down another person's throat just because you disagree with them.

So I re-iterate, this isn't a "fight" you can win, only a debate you can make worth any time by offering up a creature that can't be dragonized.

Edit: One way or the other I'm done. Not going to beat a dead horse or repeat myself again.

bigjeff5
2011-09-13, 01:47 PM
The point has been made a dozen times (I think it was made in the first few replies, actually) so I don't see why you keep making it.

It went on to an argument about whether dragons really were the be-all end-all, and I don't see why the discussion should stop just because you think it should.

I really don't see why you're getting all bent out of shape over it anyway.

_|(^_^)|_

Cerlis
2011-09-13, 07:41 PM
i hate hamburger pizza too.

Qwertystop
2011-09-13, 07:43 PM
i hate hamburger pizza too.
Wow, that actually exists?
What.

Acanous
2011-09-13, 08:14 PM
any decently optimized prepared caster>Dragon.

Usually solo, at any level equal to CR of the dragon. Unless you have a DM that is better at optimization than you :p
Seriously, though

Wizards are cooler than Dragons.
The game may be called Dungeons and Dragons,
but it is owned by Wizards of the Coast.

Edit:

Wizards can: have a dragon cohort, a dragon mount, a dragon girlfriend, a mind-controlled dragon slave, Own a dragon, Become a dragon, make things taste like dragons, look like dragons or smell like dragons... in addition to everything a dragon can do and everything anyone else can do.

Marillion
2011-09-13, 08:44 PM
Wow, that actually exists?
What.

Eh, it's just a pizza with ground beef on it. Not that bad.

magic9mushroom
2011-09-13, 10:16 PM
Cooler than dragons? Yaun-ti are awesome and you can involve a lot more of them in a game than a single dragon.

Just don't include the Yuan-Ti Anathema.


Whatever made all the dragons in the world disappear is cooler than they are.

Cliff Racers.

Your argument is invalid. :tongue:

Lord Raziere
2011-09-13, 11:09 PM
For example, I think a half-dragon angel is just retarded. If someone tried to seriously play a character like that around me I'd probably just end up making fun of him and his character all night.


challenge accepted.

Let me tell you a story....

Once, there was a silver dragon. His name was Argentulus. He clung to his ideals, his code to Bahamut, like no other dragon. He was a being of virtue, of justice and vigilance against the threats of the world.
His vigilance, took the form of his constant warring against the chromatic dragons that follow Tiamat. So he constantly searched, killed and thwarted red dragons trying to spread destruction and feed their greed.
However, when he was invading one red dragons lair, he bit off more thanh e could chew. He killed most of the younger dragons....but the oldest was more powerful than he expected. Argentulus was soon fighting a losing battle, and was soon nearing death.
However, as the killing blow was about to descend upon him, an angel struck down the great red dragon, and Argentulus thanked all the good gods above for such merciful divine intervention. When he gazed upon the angel that saved him- named Senfariel- he fell in love with her at first sight. She was a purity unsurpassed by mortals, a being of the heavens themselves descended down to save him.
Argentulus, knowing that his honor would not allow him to be dishonest, confessed his love immediately, and asked for her hand in marriage.
However, Senfariel smiled.
she replied
"No, I am an Angel, good dragon. You must prove your devotion to me- I will not humor a passing attraction or crush for your feelings. For I am angel, my love is above all, to earn it you must make water fall up, to make the sun rise in the west and set in the east, make fire cold and ice as hot as the sun."
"So...I must do the impossible then?"
"Yes, for that is the only way you will earn my love, dear Argentulus."
"Then the impossible shall be done."
and so, for years did Argentulus searched for a thing, told to be impossible to do, stalwartly planning and thinking upon what would earn Senfariel's love.
After a while he made his decision: he would outwit Asmodeus himself.

So for many years after that did Argentulus spied, manipulated and plotted, figuring out and piecing together Asmodeus's vast plans to corrupt and convert the city of Rakragrak into a city of evil and sin which he would use to spread such evil all across the world.
The city of Rakragrak- was a wreck of a city. The guards were corrupt, criminals ran rampant, cults of Asmodeus had a strong presence and even ordinary people were forced to be selfish just to survive. The city, was rotten to the core thanks to Asmodeus's manipulations.

So, what Argentulus did was that in human form he bought a random shack in Rakragrak. He then summoned Senfariel and asked her to live in the shack for two days. Senfariel raised an eyebrow but complied, wondering what the dragon was up to.
Argentulus, then went to Asmodeus himself, and started talking on and on about Asmodeus's plan to corrupt Rakragrak would fail as long as there was one virtuous person left in the city. Asmodeus argued back that he had already gotten rd of all virtuous people in Rakragrak. So Argentulus challenged Asmodeus by saying he could prove that Rakragrak wasn't fully corrupted by finding the one person in it that wasn't corrupted.
Asmodeus snorted, and in his pride, made a magical contract with Argentulus:
"If you find one uncorrupted being living within Rakragrak in one day and show them to me as proof that I have failed in corrupting it, I will relinquish the city of Rakragrak back to the free will of mortals, never to attempt to corrupt it ever again.
however if you fail, I will claim your soul, Argentulus, for all eternity."

So Argentulus went to Senfariel, who had already been living there for a day, and showed Asmodeus Senfariel, saying that since she had been living in Rakragrak and was uncorrupted, he had won.
Asmodeus raged at him, but Argentulus calmly replied that Asmodeus never specified whether the uncorrupted being was mortal or not, and Asmodeus could do nothing as the magical contract forced his influence out of the city completely.

In victory, Senfariel protested that this cold not possibly count as the impossible act, since she had helped him. Argentulus replied that since she hadn't specified whether to do the impossible with or without her help, it was valid, that and there was no one he would rather do the impossible with.
and so, Senfariel (if grudgingly) agreed to marry him because of his true devotion to her enough to wrest away an entire city from the forces of evil- without a single blade drawn.

They soon sired a child, half-dragon, half angel. They named him Jastilon and rather than try and make him live a normal life- they encouraged his natural growth into a great paladin who wields a trident to smite his foes.
They prepared him against the many enemies around them- especially Asmodeus. Jastilon knows of his fathers deeds and wants to carry on his tradition of fighting evil. He knows that Asmodeus will not sit idly by while Argentulus and his family flourish and grow.
So Jastilon seeks allies, he prepares, he trains. For he knows that one day Asmodeus will some day come to have his revenge on him and his family. However Jastilon is not worried.
He will be prepared. He will defend himself and his parents with his life, if needed.

Mystic Muse
2011-09-14, 03:40 PM
= For example, I think a half-dragon angel is just retarded. If someone tried to seriously play a character like that around me I'd probably just end up making fun of him and his character all night.

So, because you don't like a certain type of character, you're going to make fun of somebody playing that character, and his character all night? :smallconfused:

Not cool dude.

Ursus the Grim
2011-09-14, 03:44 PM
Wolpertinger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolpertinger) is cooler than all other suggestions.

This entire thread has been rendered pointless.

turkishproverb
2011-09-14, 04:48 PM
Still not as cool as a Gazebo. But close.

Daedroth
2011-09-15, 05:04 AM
any decently optimized prepared caster>Dragon.

Usually solo, at any level equal to CR of the dragon. Unless you have a DM that is better at optimization than you :p
Seriously, though

Wizards are cooler than Dragons.
The game may be called Dungeons and Dragons,
but it is owned by Wizards of the Coast.

Edit:

Wizards can: have a dragon cohort, a dragon mount, a dragon girlfriend, a mind-controlled dragon slave, Own a dragon, Become a dragon, make things taste like dragons, look like dragons or smell like dragons... in addition to everything a dragon can do and everything anyone else can do.

The dragon can have leadership, the dragon's level is far(very far) higher than of a wizard of equal CR(and a lot farer if the dragon have non-apropiated class levels that count 1/2 for CR like cleric) ...sooo, the dragon can have an epic level cohort(¿An epic level wizard maybe?) that will be a level far superior than the wizard of equal CR.

horngeek
2011-09-15, 05:28 AM
Entire discussion is pointless, because 'coolness' is a matter of opinion. I think dragons are pretty cool.

I also think wizards are pretty cool, but they're different kinds of cool. And comparing the coolness of each thing doesn't really have a point, because everyone will have a different opinion to me.

On 'everything has to involve a Dragon'- part of the coolness factor of Dragons to me is that they're rare. If they pop up every freaking adventure, they lose their point entirely.

That said, if I could figure out the rules for Dragon PCs, I'd totally play one at least once. :smalltongue: