3.X Druids & Lycanthropes

[Talonblaze]

Alright, so pretty new to the forums. Been to a few other RPG forums. Got a few questions relating to some things that weren't really able to be answered but was hoping I could get some info or suggestions here.

Gonna separate it into sections so its not a total wall of text for each section.

DRUID
-For a Druid's Wildshape, can you only take the form of creatures stat blocks in the manuals or can you do it by manual calculation?
IE: Playing a 14 or 15HD Black dragon rather than having to wait for being able to be a 16HD?

The Master Of Many Forms Questions:
Extraordinary Wild shape allows you to gain additional qualities of the form you transform in. However some notable things came up in the process, namely dragons and similar creatures.

-Since it only allows Extraordinary does that mean no Breath Weapon?
Would taking Dragon Shape eliminate this problem?

-What does a dragons Damage Reduction count as? Or any other that has no listed EX, SU or SP added to it?

Beastmaster Questions:
Is the Druid level adjustment penalty when gaining the extra companions apply to ALL existing companions or just the one that was newly acquired by the class ability? IE:
1st: Druid Companion (level 20 [10/10+3]) = EDL 23
2nd: BM Animal 1 = EDL 20 (-3)
3rd: BM Animal 2 = EDL 17 (-6)
4th: BM Animal 3 = EDL 14 (-9)
Or is it when the 4th companion is acquired do they all suffer -9? It's not clearly noted.

LYCANTHROPE CHARACTER
Okay, so got quite the oddball case here. Hoping to get a few answers about it. We got a (natural) Wereserpent Monk that is trying a rather 'interesting' build from what we've seen.

From his sources he used them from Serpent Kingdoms and Masters of the Wild. (Playing a 3.X campaign.)

Presenting us with these feats; Snatch (MotW), Improved Snatch*, Body Pouch and Prehensile Tail (both from SK).

Able to obtain Snatch via this technical loophole by MotW through being able to shift forms.
And then taking Improved Snatch since its only prereq was Snatch.

The player want's to replicate the monster ability to Swallow Whole. (Even if he can do no bludgeon or acid damage from within at his size.) To utilize the tactic to incapacitate a victim and remove them from combat in such a method. Trying to aim for somehow qualifying for Gape of the Serpent to make this task easier. Similar to suffocating or containing enemies within the Body Pouch.

Wanting to know if having taken Snatch and Improved would merit enough to qualify for either Swallow Whole or GotS. Also noting this odd but peculiar entry in GotS that we tried to double check references for;
Gape of the Serpent:
Normal: Unless otherwise noted, a creature can swallow opponents up to one size category smaller than itself

With that noted we were unsure what to make of the entry. Even checking to make sure it wasn't an older version. (As noted, newer versions were always the more correct.)
If so, he stated if he couldn't simply take Swallow Whole or GotS he could merely up his size category (through whatever method) and do it anyways due to that entry.

Secondly he wondered about the Prehensile Tail feat with its one single requirement it doesn't elaborate on.
One of the prereqs being a 'tail attack'. However, Lycans nor Snakes get such unless 'constrict' is a form of such. But even then, useless in hybrid form.
He argued that his tail could be used for his attack (being part of his body after all and usable for monk strikes) to qualify for it, but we are unsure how to rule it since only a few creatures have a tail attack and its usually noted as a 'Tail Slap' which for most feats is a very specific form of attack requirement for tails.
Thoughts, queries? We aren't against his idea or build. We just aren't sure how to rule it or get him to where he wants by RAW.


LYCANS & ADVANCEMENT
I'm not sure what the rules are on advancement for lycanthropes versus the normal animal counterparts.
The entry for lycans has it stated they advance by 'character class'.
However in the above character's instance constrictors advance to Large at 6-10 HD. He is noting that upon reaching level 6 to 10 equivalency that he would gain the benefits of the large form of the animal.
Obviously we don't really know how one would deal with the conflicting entries since even the animal form of a lycanthrope is different.
His reasoning that his advancement to HD (being unnamed it doesn't say racial or class) would grant him such benefit.
How would we rule this? Yay or nay?

Also any tips for Shifter Druids would be greatly appreciated, they seem like a pretty cool style to play.

Thanks for anyone taking the time viewing this ahead of time and even more so for those that respond.

[Urpriest]

You may want to check out the guide to monsters in my sig. It won't answer all of your questions, but it will answer many of them. I'll check back later and see if others manage to answer your other questions.

[Talonblaze]

Ah, the post was very informative, more so than typically thought about most monsters as PC's.

Unfortunately seemed to really only clarify the advancement one. As written it appears the Advancement was only by Racial HD. So his Class advancement loophole won't work. Saves us from having him buffed up more than meant to be.

[Urpriest]

Alright, on to your other questions, answers in red:



DRUID
-For a Druid's Wildshape, can you only take the form of creatures stat blocks in the manuals or can you do it by manual calculation?
IE: Playing a 14 or 15HD Black dragon rather than having to wait for being able to be a 16HD?

Unaltered animals only. You can't even do creatures with a template, it has to be the base monster.

The Master Of Many Forms Questions:
Extraordinary Wild shape allows you to gain additional qualities of the form you transform in. However some notable things came up in the process, namely dragons and similar creatures.

-Since it only allows Extraordinary does that mean no Breath Weapon?
Would taking Dragon Shape eliminate this problem?

Dragon Wild Shape explicitly gives you the Supernatural Abilities of the Dragon you turn into. Breath Weapon is Supernatural.

-What does a dragons Damage Reduction count as? Or any other that has no listed EX, SU or SP added to it?

It is listed, in the Monster Manual glossary. Most of abilities that come up more than once are detailed there.

Beastmaster Questions:
Is the Druid level adjustment penalty when gaining the extra companions apply to ALL existing companions or just the one that was newly acquired by the class ability? IE:
1st: Druid Companion (level 20 [10/10+3]) = EDL 23
2nd: BM Animal 1 = EDL 20 (-3)
3rd: BM Animal 2 = EDL 17 (-6)
4th: BM Animal 3 = EDL 14 (-9)
Or is it when the 4th companion is acquired do they all suffer -9? It's not clearly noted.

The penalty is for that specific companion only.


LYCANTHROPE CHARACTER
Okay, so got quite the oddball case here. Hoping to get a few answers about it. We got a (natural) Wereserpent Monk that is trying a rather 'interesting' build from what we've seen.

From his sources he used them from Serpent Kingdoms and Masters of the Wild. (Playing a 3.X campaign.)

Presenting us with these feats; Snatch (MotW), Improved Snatch*, Body Pouch and Prehensile Tail (both from SK).

Able to obtain Snatch via this technical loophole by MotW through being able to shift forms.
And then taking Improved Snatch since its only prereq was Snatch.

The player want's to replicate the monster ability to Swallow Whole. (Even if he can do no bludgeon or acid damage from within at his size.) To utilize the tactic to incapacitate a victim and remove them from combat in such a method. Trying to aim for somehow qualifying for Gape of the Serpent to make this task easier. Similar to suffocating or containing enemies within the Body Pouch.

Wanting to know if having taken Snatch and Improved would merit enough to qualify for either Swallow Whole or GotS. Also noting this odd but peculiar entry in GotS that we tried to double check references for;
Gape of the Serpent:
Normal: Unless otherwise noted, a creature can swallow opponents up to one size category smaller than itself

With that noted we were unsure what to make of the entry. Even checking to make sure it wasn't an older version. (As noted, newer versions were always the more correct.)
If so, he stated if he couldn't simply take Swallow Whole or GotS he could merely up his size category (through whatever method) and do it anyways due to that entry.

That quote refers to creatures with the Swallow Whole ability, not to creatures in general. It's a limitation to the ability. And no, you can't take Gape of the Serpent in order to get Swallow Whole because one of its prerequisites is Swallow Whole.

Secondly he wondered about the Prehensile Tail feat with its one single requirement it doesn't elaborate on.
One of the prereqs being a 'tail attack'. However, Lycans nor Snakes get such unless 'constrict' is a form of such. But even then, useless in hybrid form.
He argued that his tail could be used for his attack (being part of his body after all and usable for monk strikes) to qualify for it, but we are unsure how to rule it since only a few creatures have a tail attack and its usually noted as a 'Tail Slap' which for most feats is a very specific form of attack requirement for tails.

A tail attack is a specific thing, which his monk's unarmed strikes are not, since their mechanics are totally different. He needs an actual tail attack.

Thoughts, queries? We aren't against his idea or build. We just aren't sure how to rule it or get him to where he wants by RAW.

Also any tips for Shifter Druids would be greatly appreciated, they seem like a pretty cool style to play.

Thanks for anyone taking the time viewing this ahead of time and even more so for those that respond.

For Shifter Druids, I've heard good things about Moonspeaker. While you gimp your Wild Shape progression to take it, it's one of the few prestige classes that makes it worth doing so.

[Talonblaze]

Hrm, the glossary notes EX or SU. How would one determine which type is considered a Extraordinary or Supernatural type of damage reduction? Does it have to be an odd form of damage reduction beyond physical limits (such as magic, epic, law, evil etc) to be considered SU or mostly dependent on the description of the creature?

Also thanks for the other notations for clearing up that confusion in the other cases. Will notably be stumped on finding a creature that has a 'tail attack' other than a Tail Slap.

Our last inquiry would is, since he seemed disappointed that he had two wasted feats and still not get where he wants:
If there is a stage in size where a creature can obtain or otherwise use such abilities.
(He argued why a snake is incapable of using the ability or why dragons at colossal size are unable to swallow victims 4 times smaller. Course we can't exactly give a reason as to why.) Seemed to be part of his strategy.

Also, never heard of Moonspeaker, is it a homebrew or does it exist in a supplement book somewhere? (If it was in the same books I took my other prestige classes, call me blind.)

[Urpriest]

Hmm...my usual assumption is that DR/adamantine and DR/- are Ex, and the others are Su, but I can't find any support for that.

Tail attack and Tail Slap are used interchangeably in the rules, so if he gets a Tail Slap attack he'll qualify.

You don't get things like Swallow Whole by default because they require specific anatomy, not merely large size. That said, Snatch and Swallow (dragons only, Draconomicon) will do it, and there are probably other options. By the way, Snatch requires Huge, and being a Lycanthrope that can turn into a Huge creature requires a Large base creature. Sounds like there's a lot of LA on this monk?

Moonspeaker is from Races of Eberron.

[Talonblaze]

Guess I'll have to see what my DM thinks of it then. Since DR might be a handy thing. But as long as its a Dragon form, it won't really matter if I take the feat.

Well he acquired Snatch via MotW (playing a 3.X) and the DM didn't seem to have a problem with him taking it. So he avoided that Huge requirement by that method. But regardless his attempts for the use of the feats were rendered useless since Snatch doesn't really do much else for his benefit that we know of, so we told him to scrap the two and choose something else.
So he avoided the increase of LA for that.
Currently he's trying to utilize Body Pouch as his secondary option as an alternative which slightly emulates it. Now he's just trying to put his size or size emulating features to use.

Thanks for the book reference we'll have a look into it if we can.