Loss of Spell Casting through Artifact Destruction

[Daniel_Johnson]

The question I have is in regard to Mages Disjunction for D&D 3.5

This prompted the following question.

Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)

Now I understand the powers are removed from the character, but does this affect spells currently active, previously caste by said caster?

For Example A sorcerer casts a spell to change the appearance of the group. That spell would normally last around 12 hours. Since the Sorcerers powers were stripped, does this change in appearance go away?

Any help is appreciated!

[Steward]

My guess is that it depends on the spell's duration. If has a duration measured in rounds, minutes, whatever, it'll expire normally but if its duration is something like "as long as you're concentrating on it" then it goes away.

[Coidzor]

A good rule of thumb, though, is conveniently ignore most-to-all of Disjunction entirely.

[sreservoir]

better idea: just ignore disjunction's actual description and use it only where other descriptions require it to stop something.

[Urpriest]

Spells don't go away when the caster is incapacitated, nor do they go away when the caster ceases being able to cast them. This isn't a fairy tale where slaying the witch will end her curse.

[Fouredged Sword]

Except for when the story calls for it to.

Though any DM who allows disjunction to destroy a spellcasting character permanently better be prepared to have books thrown at him.

[Yuki Akuma]

Disjunction should never, ever be used, under any circumstances. It is the worst spell.

[DeAnno]

Disjunction is absolutely necessary for high level play, because it strips buff stacks.

Its other functions of killing magic items and doing more ridiculous things have questionable value for a sane campaign.

[navar100]

Pathfinder made Disjunction playable. Magic items have their magic suppressed, not destroyed, for 1 minute/level unless a Natural 1 is rolled on the save. It still sucks if that 1 is rolled, but generally the spell is no longer a Big Metagame Downer.

The risks in destroying an artifact is still there. I'm not particularly bothered by that generally. I would specifically if my character lost his powers, but only because I lost my powers, not the spell itself. I would have to trust the DM that the situation gets fixed somehow, details dependent upon the situation. I know the DM wouldn't be a jerk about it, because if he was a jerk I'd have stopped playing with him a long time ago.

[Stubbed Tongue]

Additionally, if an artifact is destroyed, you must make a DC 25 Will save or permanently lose all spellcasting abilities. (These abilities cannot be recovered by mortal magic, not even miracle or wish.)

It reads to me that the PC could gain his powers back through studying again. Taking wizard levels again. Actually now that I think about it, just because you lose your 'spellcasting' abilities doesn't mean you lose the spells known. Just the ability to cast them. Face it...your PC still has the skills, feats, spellbooks, etc.

Hmmmm

[Runestar]

Besides, what wizard can't make a dc25 will save with ease anyways?

At lv20, base+12, +6 (superior resistance, SpC), +4 insight (crystal mask, MIC), misc bonuses elsewhere (eg: +4 morale from greater heroism, +2 iron will etc), you are failing only on a natural 1.

Or with the advent of tome of magic, moment of precise mind lets you make a concentration check in place of a will save. Never fail that crucial will save ever again.

[sreservoir]

a wizard 5/different prc every level for 12 levels can have a +28 will save!

[deuxhero]

Besides, what wizard can't make a dc25 will save with ease anyways?


Just under one in twenty of them :p

[Hiro Protagonest]

Disjunction should never, ever be used, under any circumstances. It is the worst spell.
What about when you want to strip the enemy caster of all buffs?

Or with the advent of tome of magic, moment of precise mind lets you make a concentration check in place of a will save. Never fail that crucial will save ever again.
It's in Tome of Battle, and called Moment of Perfect Mind. :smallannoyed:

Just under one in twenty of them :p

Luck Blade. No wishes. Now it's one in four hundred.

[sreservoir]

Just under one in twenty of them :p

what, really? I'd expect under 1 in 400 of them. mantle of second chances is cheap, reroll 1/day. wishless luck blade is another reroll 1/day, and core to boot.

luck blade just requires possession, not even wielding. you can grab multiple if you want.

actually, with enough cost reduction cheese, you can get some hundreds of luck blades. your chances of failing that save are somewhat less than one in the number of atoms in the observable universe, if you prepare enough.

if you're going to destroy artifacts, you might as well be safe with it.

(or you could just take martial study, yes. with repeated castings of a 2nd-level spell, even. and have a perfect success rate!)

[deuxhero]

Unless you used up the rerolls or your DM doesn't opperate on a magic mart for items (possible if you are forced into destroying an artifact).

[sreservoir]

crafting them at 3565 a pop + actually quite a lot of xp doesn't require magic mart, just a bunch of free feat slots and downtime.

anyway, heroics for MPM works just fine.

[Runestar]

Plus, what is the likelihood of every villain toting an artifact as an anti-disjunction hedge anyways. It's great against dragons, who typically don't carry much gear (if any, most of their wealth is their hoard), but like to spam buffs up the whazoo.

But hey, if even a demon lord can screw up his will save, lose all his magical abilities as a result and end up being imprisoned for centuries as a result of disjunction gone awry...:smalltongue:

[137beth]

What always bothered me about that rule is that the chance of destroying an artifact is fixed for your caster level, regardless of the artifact. I'd expect a minor artifact to be destroyed more easily. What happens when an entire plot revolves around destroying one artifact? The DMG and ELH say that each artifact should have a unique way of being destroyed, but one nonepic spell already does it:smallmad:

[Big Fau]

What about when you want to strip the enemy caster of all buffs?

Use Greater Dispel? It takes the same amount of time to recalculate the statblocks, but it doesn't take up a 9th level spell slot, doesn't screw you out of 10K+ treasure at the high levels, and doesn't have a 20ft radius that could potentially screw your party over.


Friends don't let friends cast Disjunction!

[Runestar]

Use Greater Dispel? It takes the same amount of time to recalculate the statblocks, but it doesn't take up a 9th level spell slot, doesn't screw you out of 10K+ treasure at the high levels, and doesn't have a 20ft radius that could potentially screw your party over.


Friends don't let friends cast Disjunction!

Not really. With disjunction, you just need 2 statblocks (the original unbuffed version, and the fully buffed version). For greater/chain dispel, you still need to roll for each buff, which can take some time if targeting multiple foes/buffs, and then determine on the fly their new stats (which can differ depending on what buffs get dispelled/are retained). :smalltongue:

[Daniel_Johnson]

Thank you all for your replies.

Disjunction was not used in this case. We were referencing the spell to determine potential effects of destroying an artifact. Your answers combined with the continued research I have done, gave me the answers I needed.

:smile:

[ericgrau]

Now I understand the powers are removed from the character, but does this affect spells currently active, previously caste by said caster?
Death of the caster has no effect on them so I doubt losing casting ability does either.

[Yuki Akuma]

Thank you all for your replies.

Disjunction was not used in this case. We were referencing the spell to determine potential effects of destroying an artifact. Your answers combined with the continued research I have done, gave me the answers I needed.

:smile:

Destroying and artifact in any other way has absolutely no effect. Losing your spellcasting abilities is a function of the spell, not destroying artifacts.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Thank you all for your replies.

Disjunction was not used in this case. We were referencing the spell to determine potential effects of destroying an artifact. Your answers combined with the continued research I have done, gave me the answers I needed.

:smile:

That's the consequence for disjunction only, because it's basically the only way to destroy an artifact other than its special way.

[Jarveiyan]

I read that to mean that you lose any ability to cast spells period(sucks to be you at that point - wasted wizard/sorcerer levels, retrain or pick up a new non-spellcasting class). If miracle/wish or any mortal magic won't get your spellcasting ability back, gaining more levels will not either.