[Encounters] Please Help me Find fun in Low-Level Defending!

[OracleofWuffing]

A little bit of background: Encounters is pretty much the only game in town, houserules aren't on the table, I can't really ask the DM to change the encounters, but anything Dragon or WotC wise is okay. Encounters is always levels 1 to 3, with emphasis on levels 1 and 2.

The most concise way I can put this is that my entire group believes defenders blow. Their, uh, "Blowiness" isn't in the issue of DPS, they understand that Strikers and occasionally Controllers are going to be the guys that drop enemies. The blowitude is that, from their observations, Defenders just don't get to use their abilities other than being a meatshield for everyone else. This affects me because my DM sees everyone else outside of Encounters and he helps them roll up their characters, and then I basically pick whatever party role hasn't been taken. In other words, I'm usually going to play defenders, and I want to show the group that playing a defender can be fun so they'll start wanting to try it out more.

Thing is, after playing three different defender classes (Battlemind, Fighter, Swordmage) and seeing three other players get their defenders dropped in one session earlier in the year (Paladin, Fighter, Knight), I'm really seeing where they're coming from on their opinions.

Here's a list of things that are stopping me from making defenders look fun:

Enemies have Shift-and-Attack Standard At-Wills so enforcing a mark is harder than it looks on paper. Fighters get to stop the movement if they hit, sure, but it there's a chance of failure since it relies on hitting and your only bonus outside of the norm is your Wis mod, more on that later. Battleminds get to shift with their targets, but they're easily out-shifted. Paladins and Swordmages don't care so much about how far away their marks are, but...
They have close-burst/blast attacks which means that enemies just don't care about being marked, because they're hitting you and your friends anyways. You can try to do some kiting with a Swordmage or a specially-built Paladin, but it just means that the mark is going to waltz up to you and hit everyone again.
Not to mention that you'll get outnumbered meaning that you can choose to mark the one big guy who's going to mess the party up proper or you can mark the mooks who are going to go down in one hit but will also mess the party up proper. That's provided you can multi-mark.
The party doesn't like seeing enemies clumped together around you because it means that the AoE support is going to hit you, and it's harder for the single-target characters to set up CA chains.
You're going to be beaten to initiative Every. Single. Time. So all this stuff about marks doesn't even come into the game because someone's going to be hit before you can even get the chance to mark the wrong target.
And when they do hit you, they're not going to target your AC because it really feels like the majority of monsters as of late are hitting Reflex. If your Fighter invested points into WIS for the OA, you probably don't have much here, if you're a Swordmage you probably have passable Reflex but you can't stop shifts.
And when you can enforce your mark, it's usually an Immediate Action, so you're locked out of doing Opportunity Attacks or further enforcement until next turn, and $deity forbid that you have a power that is an Immediate Action. It makes you feel like Super Friends' incarnation of Aqua Man, because you're just waiting for just the right alignment of situations for you to be helpful, and when it finally comes up, you're still not as helpful as Robin.


So, yeah, basically, the only thing we're seeing Defenders use in-play is "Has a lot of HP and Surges." Which really doesn't go all that far towards the idea of preventing enemies from attacking your friends or punishing your enemies for attacking your friends. Otherwise, Defenders have a "Caught in a catch 22" stigma, rather than making their enemies suffer from catch 22s.

So, is this the situation where it's just best to scrap carrying around a party tank entirely? Are there features I'm missing, or rules I'm overlooking? Is there a cookie to be had anywhere in this?

[Mando Knight]

it's usually an Immediate Action, so you're locked out of doing Opportunity Attacks

No, you're not. Opportunity Actions are separate from Immediate Actions.

Also, the Fighter can't stop enemies from shifting away: they get an Immediate action attack for that situation, not an Opportunity Attack.

[SowZ]

A little bit of background: Encounters is pretty much the only game in town, houserules aren't on the table, I can't really ask the DM to change the encounters, but anything Dragon or WotC wise is okay. Encounters is always levels 1 to 3, with emphasis on levels 1 and 2.

The most concise way I can put this is that my entire group believes defenders blow. Their, uh, "Blowiness" isn't in the issue of DPS, they understand that Strikers and occasionally Controllers are going to be the guys that drop enemies. The blowitude is that, from their observations, Defenders just don't get to use their abilities other than being a meatshield for everyone else. This affects me because my DM sees everyone else outside of Encounters and he helps them roll up their characters, and then I basically pick whatever party role hasn't been taken. In other words, I'm usually going to play defenders, and I want to show the group that playing a defender can be fun so they'll start wanting to try it out more.

Thing is, after playing three different defender classes (Battlemind, Fighter, Swordmage) and seeing three other players get their defenders dropped in one session earlier in the year (Paladin, Fighter, Knight), I'm really seeing where they're coming from on their opinions.

Here's a list of things that are stopping me from making defenders look fun:

Enemies have Shift-and-Attack Standard At-Wills so enforcing a mark is harder than it looks on paper. Fighters get to stop the movement if they hit, sure, but it there's a chance of failure since it relies on hitting and your only bonus outside of the norm is your Wis mod, more on that later. Battleminds get to shift with their targets, but they're easily out-shifted. Paladins and Swordmages don't care so much about how far away their marks are, but...
They have close-burst/blast attacks which means that enemies just don't care about being marked, because they're hitting you and your friends anyways. You can try to do some kiting with a Swordmage or a specially-built Paladin, but it just means that the mark is going to waltz up to you and hit everyone again.
Not to mention that you'll get outnumbered meaning that you can choose to mark the one big guy who's going to mess the party up proper or you can mark the mooks who are going to go down in one hit but will also mess the party up proper. That's provided you can multi-mark.
The party doesn't like seeing enemies clumped together around you because it means that the AoE support is going to hit you, and it's harder for the single-target characters to set up CA chains.
You're going to be beaten to initiative Every. Single. Time. So all this stuff about marks doesn't even come into the game because someone's going to be hit before you can even get the chance to mark the wrong target.
And when they do hit you, they're not going to target your AC because it really feels like the majority of monsters as of late are hitting Reflex. If your Fighter invested points into WIS for the OA, you probably don't have much here, if you're a Swordmage you probably have passable Reflex but you can't stop shifts.
And when you can enforce your mark, it's usually an Immediate Action, so you're locked out of doing Opportunity Attacks or further enforcement until next turn, and $deity forbid that you have a power that is an Immediate Action. It makes you feel like Super Friends' incarnation of Aqua Man, because you're just waiting for just the right alignment of situations for you to be helpful, and when it finally comes up, you're still not as helpful as Robin.


So, yeah, basically, the only thing we're seeing Defenders use in-play is "Has a lot of HP and Surges." Which really doesn't go all that far towards the idea of preventing enemies from attacking your friends or punishing your enemies for attacking your friends. Otherwise, Defenders have a "Caught in a catch 22" stigma, rather than making their enemies suffer from catch 22s.

So, is this the situation where it's just best to scrap carrying around a party tank entirely? Are there features I'm missing, or rules I'm overlooking? Is there a cookie to be had anywhere in this?

If everyone is just focused on doing their role and nothing else, (not helping everyone else fulfill their role,) sure, a defender will be significantly less useful. But that isn't smart playing. Controllers, Leaders, and just general tactics/player positioning should be done to make sure the Defender is getting hit/is able to use his abilities. And strikers should put a higher priority on enemies the defender is particularly vulnerable to if they can spare the attack or else a leader should just prepare to surge you when an enemy whose damage you can't prevent is heading towards you as the Defender.

[NecroRebel]

Opportunity attacks don't eat your immediate actions, or do immediate actions eat your opportunity attack. Knowing that can make the difference between Fighters kind of sucking and making them some of the stickiest defenders in the game.

I've not played any of the Encounters sets(?) but I find it hard to believe that shift-and-attack at-wills would be that common at low levels. They might be shifting, then charging and attacking that way, but that limits them to melee basic and ranged attacks, which tend to be significantly weaker.

If enemies have close attacks, they're usually going to be encounter powers, or at least rechargers, so they get that one attack without the mark and then it's done. Also, while it may seem that defenders should be between their allies and the target, that's not always the case; with enemies that have close blasts, being on the far side of them from your allies can be better, as it means that they can't catch both you and allies in a blast.

You should be marking the big guy; the mooks are the Controller's job. Also, the Controller should be able to blast to one side of you. Sure, they may only catch 3 mooks instead of 8, but that's better than hitting and maybe taking you out.

Defenders should have decent Dexterity when possible, and having Improved Initiative or Quick Draw for more initiative isn't a bad idea, either. That stops you from being beaten to initiative as much. If your Defenders have consistently been rolling badly for initiative, that's not a problem with a role, it's a problem with your dice.

Again, I find it hard to believe that most monsters have an at-will that targets Reflex, but, again, you should have a decent Dex (or Int on swordmages). Normally Will would be your lowest defense.



Most Defenders get 2 attacks for every one of the Strikers' if the enemies consistently violate the marks, and those that don't either deal auto-damage or greatly reduce the damage dealt. Except for shielding swordmages, defenders whose mark is triggered consistently actually outdamage equal-level strikers if you do the math because the average damage from a single attack exceeds the boost from striker features. As long as you can trigger your defender feature, in other words, you should be contributing a great deal of damage, and if you're not, you're forcing enemies to attack something harder to hit.

Even with AoE powers, you're still heavily constraining their options as to where they can hit without being hit. Your party members should, when possible, be as far away from you as they can and still give you support.



Overall, I'd suggest playing a Swordmage. They can have AoE powers, including at-wills like Greenflame Blade and Sword Burst, themselves which take out minions, removing 2 of the problems you cited off the bat. They are difficult to get away from due to their long-range trigger effect, and have good Reflex as well so that doesn't trigger so much.

Mostly, though, it's probably just the tactics that your party is using that makes a Defender in the fray less fun than it might otherwise be.

[Mando Knight]

Also, I think you're overblowing the problem. Those enemies are specifically designed to avoid the Defender, and are generally slightly less effective while using those abilities than if they used their other attacks, unless the power is limited (i.e. a dragon's breath attack).

If you have problems keeping up with Initiative, grab Improved Initiative.

Furthermore, a Defender is actually likely to have the best NADs in the team on average: most carry shields to boost their AC and that also helps their Ref, all of them have a Fort stat as one of their secondaries if not their primary, and their Will stats usually follow the same trend. Swordmages don't get a Will stat as a secondary, but they get a +2 Will right off the bat anyway.

The fun of being a Defender is in being an invincible engine of death that won't give up ever and will absolutely murder you if you try hurting his friends. A poorly played Defender will seem like a poor man's Striker with some extra bulk and a fairly weak but nearly constant debuff that he applies to his enemies. A good Defender may still look like that on the outside, but once you look at the battle more closely, you may realize that he's the team's foundation and shield--and you'd be hosed without him.

[OracleofWuffing]

Spoilers for the sake of keeping things organized, I do want to shout a BIG BOLD THANK YOU for the fast and informed responses. :smallsmile: Honestly, if I sound frustrated, I'm not upset at you, I'm just upset that I'm having trouble having fun on a game.

Mando Knight, first post:

No, you're not. Opportunity Actions are separate from Immediate Actions.
Okay, that helps a little bit...

Also, the Fighter can't stop enemies from shifting away: they get an Immediate action attack for that situation, not an Opportunity Attack.
...But that hurts a little bit. :smallsigh:


SowZ:

And strikers should put a higher priority on enemies the defender is particularly vulnerable to if they can spare the attack or else a leader should just prepare to surge you when an enemy whose damage you can't prevent is heading towards you as the Defender.
Problem is, the enemies are attacking before my mark gets into play, or are attacking both me and the Striker (or controller or leader) in the same hit. The Striker ends up needing to attack the enemy in front of him for fear of his own life, and the Leader ends up healing not-me because everyone else gets bloodied in one or two hits compared to my three or four- and I really can't say that's a bad decision on the Leader player's end.

NecroRebel (A second thank you here for being so comprehensive! I'm sorry if I missed anything or misinterpreted something, you're a big help!)

I've not played any of the Encounters sets(?) but I find it hard to believe that shift-and-attack at-wills would be that common at low levels. They might be shifting, then charging and attacking that way, but that limits them to melee basic and ranged attacks, which tend to be significantly weaker.
Let's see, I remember shifting being a problem in Phantom Brigade... In the fourth session, you fight 22 minions that shift 1 before attacking, the next encounter you fight 5 Skirmishers that shift 3 as their move action, then after that there's 3 Brutes that have a charging at-will action, and then there's the next encounter where 2 guys shift 4 and attack while removing marks on themselves with another guy with another at-will charge action. Granted, that's probably a textbook definition of a biased sampling, but it's a straight third of the season.


If enemies have close attacks, they're usually going to be encounter powers, or at least rechargers, so they get that one attack without the mark and then it's done.
Eh, maybe my DM just got lucky with all the recharges... I was basically locked down on the entire second session of Lost Crown of Neverwinter, because the dragon kept breathing damage onto everyone then running over me then someone else. He could do the running attack every round, and it gave him resistance.


with enemies that have close blasts, being on the far side of them from your allies can be better, as it means that they can't catch both you and allies in a blast.
Agreed, I try to stay on the far side of monsters. My group really likes flanking, even though we never see people play rogues. Thing is, when a monster can move and attack, he'll just use that movement to position himself so all my work to get behind someone goes to waste.


You should be marking the big guy; the mooks are the Controller's job. Also, the Controller should be able to blast to one side of you. Sure, they may only catch 3 mooks instead of 8, but that's better than hitting and maybe taking you out.
That's what I thought I should be doing with my mark, however, the big guy always ends up having something that hits two targets or has some means to move or has some other means to screw my class features over. Then, without me tossing marks around, the mooks don't end up in neat little squares so the controller can't hit more than two at a time and end up using concentrated fire on one of my allies.


Defenders should have decent Dexterity when possible, and having Improved Initiative or Quick Draw for more initiative isn't a bad idea, either. That stops you from being beaten to initiative as much. If your Defenders have consistently been rolling badly for initiative, that's not a problem with a role, it's a problem with your dice.
Okay, yes, Improved Initiative, will slap it on the next time it comes around. I still see some beginning monsters with +5 initiative though...


Again, I find it hard to believe that most monsters have an at-will that targets Reflex, but, again, you should have a decent Dex (or Int on swordmages). Normally Will would be your lowest defense.
Of the 13 encounters in The Dark Legacy of Evard, there are three encounters where you are not fighting against someone that can target Reflex At-Will: Encounters 3, 5, and 8.


Overall, I'd suggest playing a Swordmage. They can have AoE powers, including at-wills like Greenflame Blade and Sword Burst, themselves which take out minions, removing 2 of the problems you cited off the bat. They are difficult to get away from due to their long-range trigger effect, and have good Reflex as well so that doesn't trigger so much.
Currently playing one (shielding), though not with those powers. My controller and striker is a Wizard what with the Arcane Fire feat and a Greatbow-wielding Ranger, so I figured we had small minion control down this time around and focused on being able to move enemies around or make them stand still so they'd be in good formation for them.


Mando Knight, second post:


Also, I think you're overblowing the problem.
:smallconfused:Huh? What? Naaaaah. :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, there's only so many Defender classes, and I actually find controllers to be the most interesting roles yet have never played a striker, but I won't get around to it because I'm the only one that can tolerate playing a Defender.


The fun of being a Defender is in being an invincible engine of death that won't give up ever and will absolutely murder you if you try hurting his friends.
I mean, I feel like I'm too limited on resources to get all of those things working properly. Taking the Fighter for example, my attacks run off strenght and my riders run off Con, and I can't mark things unless I hit them, how the heck am I supposed to come off with respectable stats there while also grabbing Improved Initiative? That's not touching things like Intelligent Blademaster or other feats other classes need to not have comedy OAs. It's like, "Okay, pick two, you don't get a third one."

[Zaq]

If shifting enemies are a problem and all books are on the table, nobody can shift away from a Harrier Battlemind with Harrying Step. Not for long, at least. The only problem is that their AoOs kinda blow without houseruling in pre-nerfed Melee Training, which you said is off the table.

If you're finding your mark consistently violated and you're not in a position to punish it, a Paladin can be removed from play and their mark punishment will still trigger. A Swordmage can't be removed from play, but they can be across the board.

If initiative is a problem, the Battlemind has several ways to get into position before their turn comes up. Failing that, hobgoblins (which make good Battleminds and good Paladins), githzerai (which make decent Swordmages) and githyanki (which also make good Swordmages, and at least decent Battleminds) all have racial bonuses to initiative. Fighters and devas can take a feat to add their WIS to their initiative instead of their DEX. Fighters can have DEX as a secondary stat, if they so choose. Flat-footedness doesn't exist anymore, so if you have any immediate powers that would punish an enemy even if they're not marked (for example, Dimensional Vortex), you don't have to have come up in initiative to do so.

Between the complaints about shifting enemies, being mobbed, and having low NADs, I think you might do well with a Paladin. They're the kings of multimarking in Heroic (since they're the only ones who can easily punish), they do just fine when they're mobbed, and between the heavy shield and the class bonus to all defenses, they're probably pretty decent at all three NADs. In my experience, their mark punishment gets outshone pretty hard by late Heroic, but at level 1-3, it's just fine. If you want a bonus to init out of them, you could go hobgoblin (+CHA/CON is pretty solid for Paladins, and you don't have enough feats to really care about the lack of feat support for hobbos . . . plus, their racial power is great for defenders).

[M.c.P]

A few fighter notes.

Fighter mark applies just for making the attack, hit or miss. This is what makes fighter powers that attack multiple enemies so powerful, since you can mark two enemies with the fighter's very sticky feature.

True, if you punish one shift, the other can get away, but its better than both getting away, right? Besides, your buddies can take a hit or two, presuming your occupying the worst of the bunch.

Second, Fighter secondaries. A Con secondary presumes you're taking some invigorating powers, where the constant stream of THP will offset the NAD weakness. Most (Vanilla) fighters enjoy a Wis secondary, for the OA bonus, will defense, and a couple power riders. There's also a Dex secondary, which is based around a couple Martial Power builds. Don't forget, shields give a Reflex Bonus, so your Dex/int doesn't need too big of an investment!

Defenders are team based, true. But if you play right you can severely limit an enemy's options. Believe me, the Knight in the game I'm running is very adept at making the battle revolve around him.


Edit: Let me make a suggestion for you. Build a tiefling Charisma Paladin, put the flex stat in con. If you want more riders, go for tertiary wis, if you want a better reflex and initiative, go dex. Pick up the feat Wrath of the Crimson Legion (Dragon 381) and Valorous Smite for your lvl 1 encounter.

You now can mass mark most of the board for two turns in a row, threatening 7 radiant damage on top of the debuff if its broken. You will have the highest AC possible at char gen and have all your NADs above average. You will become a psuedo controller as entire minion groups are left sucking their thumbs because they can do nothing that won't kill them. And believe me, with all the aggro you're pulling, your allies will be doing pretty well for themselves.

[DragonBaneDM]

I'll add more later, promise!

But if you're having trouble with enemies moving around a lot, go Warden dude! Between Winter's Herald and Thorn Strike, it's ridiculously difficult to impossible for people to get away from you!

EDIT:

Okay, so that's once a day, you're right. But in general, I'd only use that when you notice a ton of monsters very focused on mobility in a fight. That SHOULDN'T be every fight.

Also, Warden's Grasp is meh, I know. But there's also a LOT of other stuff you can use to keep people next to you. Grasping Winds for starters. Good opening move!

Treachorous Ice... Misspelled that, I know, prevents people shifting away from you.

I'm a big fan of Mark of Warding. The extra -1 seems little, but if they DO get away from you, it's nice to know that they won't be hitting anyone. That's also the reason I prefer Wildblood over Earthstrength.

Hungry Earth and Burst of Earth's Fury target everyone next to you, again making the shifty folk unable to get away. Good after you open with Grasping Winds OR if you multiclass to get Come and Get It.

That's as sticky as I've ever needed to get, sir. But at the end of the day, if the DM is building encounters specifically built to evade Defenders, you'll just have to stick to one or two guys and hope your allies can do their jobs.

[SowZ]

SowZ:
Problem is, the enemies are attacking before my mark gets into play, or are attacking both me and the Striker (or controller or leader) in the same hit. The Striker ends up needing to attack the enemy in front of him for fear of his own life, and the Leader ends up healing not-me because everyone else gets bloodied in one or two hits compared to my three or four- and I really can't say that's a bad decision on the Leader player's end.


Occasionally, one will slide past you as the defender. Even with level appropriate encounters, it happens. If it happens consistently? Assuming the Defender is playing well, a few things could be happening...

1. The controller dropped the ball. Not always. But it could still be the controllers bad.

2. Group placement and general tactics are not helping the Defender do his job or putting too much stress on him. Strikers aren't targetting the right people, positioning is making it hard to direct/kill monsters, etc. Alternatively, the DM may be a noticeably better 4e tactician than the group of PCs.

IMO, these are more likely than the Defender being designed in a way where they cannot do their job to the fullest. Maybe the groups aversion to Defenders makes them not understand the role of the defender fully enough so they don't play in a way that helps the Defender out?

[Gryndle]

I can't improve on any of the advice the others have stated.

I would like to say this though: if your party doesn't work with your efforts to play a Defender, then you will have a tough time of it, no matter how you go about it.

My suggestion would be to abandon the defender role and play whatever you want. I'm willing to bet that your group will start missing that defender.

My group's defender wound up taking over the DM'ing duties when we lost a player. That left our party with all strikers.

We kill things fast, but are very squishy and each one of us has had to MC as a leader type just to keep each other alive.

Last session one of the players replaced his character with a Great Weapon Fighter, and played it surprisingly well (he is not the brightest of the bunch).

The difference in how much damage we took due to his control of the enemies and their movements was VERY obvious.

Your mileage may vary ofcourse, but I find the presence or absence of well-played defenders makes a huge difference in the way battles play out.

[Epinephrine]

I agree about the battlemind - hard to get away from them, and they have decent punishment.

Also, going Constitution/Wisdom allows some solid initiative if you want it, between Battlewise (use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier for initiative) and Improved Initiative you can pretty much match anyone in the party. They don't need to spend a feat on melee training as they have an at-will they can use to punish (if they keep some power points for it), and a half-elf (a good race for them) can choose a dilettante power to use as well.

[OracleofWuffing]

Again, a big thanks all around for keeping the ball rolling. Same rules all around, and another big thanks just for putting up with the stripey text walls.

Zaq:

If shifting enemies are a problem and all books are on the table, nobody can shift away from a Harrier Battlemind with Harrying Step. Not for long, at least. The only problem is that their AoOs kinda blow without houseruling in pre-nerfed Melee Training, which you said is off the table.
I want to like Battleminds, I really do, but needing to stand next to your mark at all times was a huge thorn in my side with everyone else pushing or sliding him around in that party or me getting pushed on occasion. :smallfrown: I'm... Beginning to see what people are saying about party tactics being the problem. I got to use Blurred Step once that entire campaign, and it was against a large creature that I was adjacent to even without the movement. PP is also at a premium at these levels, which is pretty much salt in the wound.


If you're finding your mark consistently violated and you're not in a position to punish it, a Paladin can be removed from play and their mark punishment will still trigger. A Swordmage can't be removed from play, but they can be across the board.
Yeah, it's one of the reasons I'm playing a Swordmage now, just that either way around I'm still on the short end of the stick for multitarget attacks and the like.


If initiative is a problem, the Battlemind has several ways to get into position before their turn comes up. Failing that, hobgoblins (which make good Battleminds and good Paladins), githzerai (which make decent Swordmages) and githyanki (which also make good Swordmages, and at least decent Battleminds) all have racial bonuses to initiative. Fighters and devas can take a feat to add their WIS to their initiative instead of their DEX. Fighters can have DEX as a secondary stat, if they so choose.
Thanks for the race suggestions, I don't think my group has even seen a hobbo yet.

I'm going by feel here, but I'm wary of taking a feat to add WIS to initiative. Outside of being human, that is my one feat until short of halfway through, so it's "act in time to mark something" or "be more effective in combat." For comparison, see M.c.P's suggestion and my response to it.


Flat-footedness doesn't exist anymore, so if you have any immediate powers that would punish an enemy even if they're not marked (for example, Dimensional Vortex), you don't have to have come up in initiative to do so.
Dimensional Vortex won't come into play until the last two or three encounters, but I'll make a note of it because it looks right down my alley, provided my Swordmage lasts that long.


Between the complaints about shifting enemies, being mobbed, and having low NADs, I think you might do well with a Paladin. ... [Snipped for brevity]
The paladins I have seen are the biggest sufferers of low initiative combined with low movement speed so they can't get around to the other side of the enemy without really risking something. I'm kind of concerned about them apparently having the best NADs, it feels like I should be playing a Blackguard because then I'll get the defenses of a Pally with pseudo-Striker level damage, and I won't feel bad about losing out on mark violations.

Edit: For that matter, looking through alternatives, a Torm or Selune Warpriest gets a non-mark punishing attack, and while it's kinda piddly in comparison to what Defenders do to punish, it goes off even if I'm in the hit, too.


M.c.P


Fighter mark applies just for making the attack, hit or miss. This is what makes fighter powers that attack multiple enemies so powerful, since you can mark two enemies with the fighter's very sticky feature.
:smallannoyed: I know a player and a DM who are going to get hit very hard with a book come Thursday, and for once the player is not me.


Besides, your buddies can take a hit or two, presuming your occupying the worst of the bunch.
Famous last words. :smallamused:


Edit: Let me make a suggestion for you. Build a tiefling Charisma Paladin, put the flex stat in con. If you want more riders, go for tertiary wis, if you want a better reflex and initiative, go dex. Pick up the feat Wrath of the Crimson Legion (Dragon 381) and Valorous Smite for your lvl 1 encounter.
"Wrath of the Crimson Legion," eh? I'll go ahead and look that up then. Dragon 381, 381, 381... :smalleek: Holy hell that's holy punishment. Valorous Smite relies on a hit, though, and I'm getting at best a +2 initiative. It doesn't really work with my current group and how it's ranged focus, so there's nothing stopping enemies from hitting my allies, getting marked, and then hitting me because my allies won't be able to make opportunity attacks bigger than a d4. That said, yeah, that's pretty dang powerful if I could convince everyone else to be good enough in melee.


DragonBaneDM


I'll add more later, promise!
You're leaving us hanging, man! I've procrastinated posting here just to see your clarification! :smallwink:


But if you're having trouble with enemies moving around a lot, go Warden dude! Between Winter's Herald and Thorn Strike, it's ridiculously difficult to impossible for people to get away from you!
:smallconfused: I'm not seeing it. Warden's Grasp happens after the damage is done, Thorn Strike won't stick them next to me, and Winter's Herald (while I can see its power) is a daily so I'm using it only three times throughout the campaign.


SowZ

IMO, these are more likely than the Defender being designed in a way where they cannot do their job to the fullest. Maybe the groups aversion to Defenders makes them not understand the role of the defender fully enough so they don't play in a way that helps the Defender out?
Okay, so the follow-up question would be, "How can I encourage my group to act in a way that benefits Defenders, without coming off as demanding?" To me, it feels like everyone else is doing what their role is supposed to do, so what activities am I looking to correct in my group's actions?

Gryndle, thanks for the encouragement. :smallsmile: I, uh, don't really think I can be much more in depth for a response on that.

Epinephrine

Also, going Constitution/Wisdom allows some solid initiative if you want it, between Battlewise (use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dexterity modifier for initiative) and Improved Initiative you can pretty much match anyone in the party. They don't need to spend a feat on melee training as they have an at-will they can use to punish (if they keep some power points for it), and a half-elf (a good race for them) can choose a dilettante power to use as well.
Hunter still beats Battlemind for initiative, but beating initiative is pretty much the thing they do. :smallbiggrin:

Jokes out of the way, I'm very wary about relying on PP for my MBA. That's basically telling me I can make two OAs the entire encounter, and that's assuming I don't want to mark two targets that encounter. I'm certain my DM will hit me for not taking Knack for Success, but let's see... Druid's Grasping Claws looks like the best route to go down for that and it'll at least slow down people as they waltz by, any other suggestions you might have?

[Gillric]

Ok, as a player of Encounters and a former DM (Dark Legacy of Evard) there are a few things. First of all, encounters is essentials only so the whole immediate action issue is irrelevant. The only two playable defenders are the knight and the cavalier which have auras for marking.

The cavalier gets auto damage on a shift or an attack and as with every class in the game, you get an opportunity attack.

The knight has auto damage on a miss but you get to make an attack, with the correct stance selection can make this so much fun. For example if you take cleaving assault as your active stance and someone in your aura shifts or attacks someone besides you you get to attack them, and on a hit another baddie next to you takes damage as well. My personal favorite is Defend the Line in combination with the feat World Serpents Grasp, this combo means that every time you hit, you slow your target and if you hit a target that is already slowed, they fall prone. This option gives your defender an adequate form of soft control.

This mark punishment can go off every turn so the immediate action problem is gone.

As a defender you are hard to hit, can be doing decent damage (I currently play a knight doing 1d10+4 at level 1), and can even do a little soft control while protecting all those squishy characters.

[OracleofWuffing]

Ok, as a player of Encounters and a former DM (Dark Legacy of Evard) there are a few things. First of all, encounters is essentials only so the whole immediate action issue is irrelevant.
While this is true for the more recent seasons (Dragon is also allowed in addition to Essentials, and obviously, Encounters was not essentials only back before Essentials launched) my DM does not own any essentials books himself and has ruled that any Dragon or WotC material is fair game, which is why I specified that information.

The ruling is based on the premise that Wizards has previously said all 4e Material is core.

[Gillric]

That's all well and good, other than it drastically affects the power curve for the game.

Also, if you don't want to play a defender, don't. I am enjoying playing one at the moment, but there is absolutely no reason your group can't do fine without a defender.

[Epinephrine]

Jokes out of the way, I'm very wary about relying on PP for my MBA. That's basically telling me I can make two OAs the entire encounter, and that's assuming I don't want to mark two targets that encounter. I'm certain my DM will hit me for not taking Knack for Success, but let's see... Druid's Grasping Claws looks like the best route to go down for that and it'll at least slow down people as they waltz by, any other suggestions you might have?
[/SPOILER]

Suggestion for the dilettante would be Eldritch Strike; it keys off Constitution, it's an MBA, and it has a built in slide 1.

How often do you need the OA? You can punish without using an OA anyway (as an immediate reaction, not an opportunity action). If you have 3 OAs a fight, is it enough? I suppose it depends on how often the DM likes to trigger them. If he's big on triggering OAs, definitely take a class with a strong MBA of some sort.

[Dimers]

I'm a big fan of the 1st-level battlemind power conductive defense. If you hit, your target will take damage from hitting your allies, period -- doesn't need to be near you, no further action required, gets punished multiple times if it hits multiple times. The punishment isn't good for a high-level campaign, but it's outstanding for levels 1 to 3 like you're talking about. If you blow a power point while attacking, the target even takes damage from shifting near your allies. Sadly, the power targets Reflex instead of AC, so it's probably not ideal for facing the skirmishers and lurkers you seem to be having trouble with ... but that makes it even better against brutes and soldiers.

I'll second the motion for not playing a defender at all. Maybe hybrid or multiclass one ... But if your party doesn't try to work with your class abilities and the monsters you're facing bypass and ignore defenders anyway, you'd do your party more good (and have a better time!) running something else instead.

[Mando Knight]

I'd be tempted to let the party go without a Defender, then completely maul them because of it. When they ask why their healers and ranged guys can't seem to stay up, I'd then ask them where the guy who's supposed to guard them and hold down the enemy is.

Alternatively, I'd play a Defender so badass that they start to wonder how they could ever be so awesome. I'm talking "Warrior of BLAZING JUSTICE" badass. A massive ham, such that the DM is forced to turn the boss encounter into Ham vs Ham combat, lest even a dragon seem like yet another mook tossed aside by his majestic blade. A Paragon of Manliness such that you swear you can hear JAM Project in the background every time it's his turn to (over) act.

[OracleofWuffing]

Keep in mind that this is all pregenerated published encounters- while there's wiggle room for my DM to apply his own tactics when the book doesn't cover situations, he's not going out of his way to design the encounters this way, he's just running it by the rails and the closest we hit to a personalized experience is "Oh, wait, I forgot to turn the page, two more bad guys show up over here." I know my DM isn't designing encounters against me, and I don't think anyone at WotC has a vendetta against me anymore.

Going back up to hit DragonBaneDM's edit...
Grasping Winds sounds like a Wardenified Valorous Smite... I mean, yeah, it sounds like something I'd pick up if I was already playing a Warden, but the Paladin route of doing that "robs" targets of their move actions. Treacherous Ice is what I want, but I have no idea how to get a level 6 daily utility power as a level 2 encounter utility power without using a whole lot of white out, whistling, and acting nonchalantly around my DM. :smallwink: Likewise, I can't get Hungry Earth and Grasping Winds, it's either one or the other. Burst of Earth's Fury seems like what I would take at level 3, but again, that's about two or three encounters most of the time.


How often do you need the OA? You can punish without using an OA anyway (as an immediate reaction, not an opportunity action). If you have 3 OAs a fight, is it enough?
I'm thinking of it from more of a logistics issue than a practical experience- like I said, shifting is really, really annoying, so I'm probably just mentally overcomplicating things. It isn't hard for our group to take five rounds or more a session, so if I'm lucky to get one OA a round, that still locks me out for half the battle and blocks me from augmenting during my own turns.


I'll second the motion for not playing a defender at all. Maybe hybrid or multiclass one ... But if your party doesn't try to work with your class abilities and the monsters you're facing bypass and ignore defenders anyway, you'd do your party more good (and have a better time!) running something else instead.
See, I was thinking of not defending at all, but then again, Battleminds have been given a lot of love in this topic and I might actually want to try one again now. :smallsmile: I've not touched Hybrid character rules because I hear they cause your brain to melt and that's if you pick the right combinations, any good supporting material on that or is a "read the entire thing and every option and bang your head until something works" thing?

I could always just build multiple characters and use whatever works once I see everyone else's characters, too.


Alternatively, I'd play a Defender so badass that they start to wonder how they could ever be so awesome. I'm talking "Warrior of BLAZING JUSTICE" badass. A massive ham, such that the DM is forced to turn the boss encounter into Ham vs Ham combat, lest even a dragon seem like yet another mook tossed aside by his majestic blade. A Paragon of Manliness such that you swear you can hear JAM Project in the background every time it's his turn to (over) act.
Yeah, I wouldn't have a problem with playing a ham, the problem is it's hard to act awesome when your target looks at you, says "I don't care," and then tears the pacifist healer's spleen out while you just stand there because he tapped you on the shoulder first. Badass is some ratio of fluff and mechanics, and if you miss one you just end up comedic.

[Dimers]

I've not touched Hybrid character rules because I hear they cause your brain to melt and that's if you pick the right combinations, any good supporting material on that or is a "read the entire thing and every option and bang your head until something works" thing?

Hybrids force you to consider the mechanics, no doubt about it, but they're not so complicated you can't handle it. Take heart, (player of) Hero(es)!

Dimers' Quick And Dirty, IME, YMMV Guide To Making A Viable Hybrid Defender:

(1) Hybridizing a defender with a defender doesn't usually work well. So pick a second role you'd like to fulfill.

(2) Choose a stat that works for your secondary role and see what defenders that will line up with. E.g. if you want leader secondary, you want a defender that likes Str, Wis or Cha. Then pick specific classes that use two common stats, like a Cha/Con bard and a Con/Cha battlemind, or Str/Con for a fighter-barbarian.

(3) Start imagining the 'big picture' sketched out by these boosted stats and these two classes. Get really really excited about it! Woooo! Preferably add in a race that improves those stats and get excited about that too! WOOOO!

(4) THEN, you read the hybrid creation rules and see what features those classes get. :smallsmile:

(5) If you aren't boosting Dex or Int, your first feat will be Hybrid Talent to gain the armor and shield proficiencies of the defender class. Sigh in a put-upon manner but grudgingly accept the inflexibility.

(6) Think about tertiary stats. If you've picked a non-Str defender, seriously consider making Str tertiary anyway for MBAs. Also, try to shore up weak NADs, boost initiative, all the usual stuff. Don't worry too much about needing stats to qualify for feats, because you won't play the character long enough for it to matter.

(7) Pick at-will powers that seem to work well with your chosen stats and your class abilities. You get one from each class, so there's not overmuch to consider. Humans get another one from either class they want.
(7a) If one of your classes is battlemind/psion/ardent and the other is not, you choose between getting [augmentable psi at-will + 2 PP + no encounter power] or [psi at-will with augmentations removed + no PP + encounter power from other class]. This doesn't change until 3rd level. Doesn't sound like you're thrilled about having PP anyway, so you'd probably pick the encounter power, meaning you pay no heed to the Augment lines of your psi power options.

(8) Grab an encounter power from either class [or that whole PP plus augmentation thing] and a daily from either class.

(9) Mischief managed!

EDIT in response to "Battleminds have been given a lot of love in this topic and I might actually want to try one again now": yeah, I think a harrier battlemind could help out with, like, half the problems in your original post. They play notably differently from other defenders, with their aggressive chasing style.

[Dacia Brabant]

If all WotC is allowed, and if what you want to do is bring the pain as a defender, consider going Genasi Assault Swordmage|Warlock.

Eldritch Strike covers your MBA and Booming Blade (and Stormsoul Genasi) as your lockdown. Unfortunately you have to lose your feat slot on Hybrid Talent: Swordmage Warding to keep your AC in defender range, but your NADs should be decent (16/15/14 assuming level 1 neck item) and your HP and surges are top tier.

With Vestige Pact, Clarion Call, Vestige of Mount Vaelis, Booming Blade and Promise of Storm, your nova round at level 1 with AP could be as high as 2d8+3d4 (AoE)+2d8+1d6+8 +temp HP +target cannot run/walk, followed up with another 1d8+1d8+4 next round since Promise of Storm lasts until the end of your next turn.

Your MBA against cursed targets is respectable at 1d8+1d6+4, which you can add to your nova round if your mark happens to trigger it or you get off an AoO. This goes up to +6 at level 2, assuming Bracers of Mighty Striking, and +9 with Elemental Assault (level 2 feat) on melee basics granted by your aegis, which also lets you tack on the 1d8's from Promise of Storm since it adds thunder damage. There's a Swordmage level 2 utility that turns your weapon into a lightning weapon as well, but it sucks away your much-needed minor action so probably only useful on boss fights.

You only get to mark one thing at a time and you have to kill it to be able to mark something again, but that's actually a good thing if it encourages your party to focus fire. Your melee allies should be in its face anyway with you up to 10 squares away ready to pounce.

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, er, I wanted to post an update as to how well defending went after my next game of Encounters, but, um... Well, I was only able to play one round of combat before the bad guys were killed. I contributed a d8+4, and then everything was taken out by the Wizard and Ranger before my next turn came up. I, uh, don't think I should take all that much information from today's encounter.:smallredface:

Playing with hybrid builds has been a slog. Feels like I'm either stuck with swordmage on one side so I can make up for a lack of shield, or Blackguard for the other side so I can have a shield, or a human so I won't be quite as feat-starved.


If all WotC is allowed, and if what you want to do is bring the pain as a defender, consider going Genasi Assault Swordmage|Warlock.
Sounds like an intriguing build, even after you subtract item bonuses (Treasures in Encounters are DM's choice of "DM selects from this table at certain points to put a single item down" or "DM rolls from the same table at certain points to put a single item down," basically the only reliable way to get magic items is to have another character hit level 2, then die, so you make a new character at level 2). Just worried that I'll have to roll high on initiative.

[M.c.P]

Hybrid defenders often want to take the hybrid talent feat for their defenses

[Zaq]

I find that very few Hybrids are worth it until you get to at least mid-Heroic. By that point, you can afford to get Hybrid Talent along with a few feats that do more than just bring you up to baseline, and you're starting to feel like more of a whole instead of two halves. YMMV, but 1-3 is probably one of the most frustrating level ranges for a Hybrid.

Anyway, here's a level 1 Paladin I threw together that mostly works with what you're after. It was a five-minute build, so no part of it is too sacred to change.

Human

Feats: Improved Initiative, Mighty Challenge
Stats: 16 STR, 12 DEX, 10 CON, 8 INT, 12 WIS, 16 + 2 CHA
AC: 10 + 8 (plate) + 2 (heavy shield) = 20
Fort: 10 + 1 (race) + 1 (class) + 3 (STR) = 15
Ref: 10 + 1 (race) + 1 (class) + 1 (DEX) + 2 (shield) = 15
Will: 10 + 1 (race) + 1 (class) + 4 (CHA) = 16

At-Wills: Ardent Strike, Enfeebling Strike, (Valiant Strike OR Virtuous Strike)
Encounter: Valorous Smite
Daily: Majestic Halo

Basically, human works perfectly for you, since it gets you a bonus feat (awesome) and a +1 to all your NADs (also awesome). Mighty Challenge makes your Divine Challenge do 10 damage, which is considerable at level 1, even if it's weak by level 6. (For comparison, a level 1 standard Brute has about 30-35 HP. A level 3 standard Brute has about 55 HP. 10 damage will leave a mark, pun intended.) Improved Init gets you a net +5 modifier, which could be worse at level 1. Paladin mark punishment triggers without an action and at any range, so they can Stun you and shift to the moon and you'll still smack 'em.

Ardent Strike, Valorous Smite, and Majestic Halo are all about getting as many Sanctions on the field as possible, since you can multimark (and, more importantly, punish them all) like none other. Ardent Strike also makes charge-marking possible, which helps make up for the slow move speed plate slaps you with. Enfeebling Strike is to make your enemy feel it even if they do choose to ignore you. Valiant Strike would give you an MBA that's CHA-based, or Virtuous Strike would give you a very accurate option when you're mobbed. Your call on that one. Your WIS has to suffer a little bit to keep both STR and CHA high, so your Lay On Hands or equivalent isn't too important, and it really depends on your party. With 10 surges a day, you'll be a contender for having the highest number of surges in the party even with a 10 CON, but you can swap DEX for CON if you really want to.

I find that Paladin marks tend to lose their shine at higher levels, but at low levels, they're amazing. This build addresses the initiative concern (even the Rogue isn't going to go much higher, since he probably won't blow a feat on it), the shifting concern (Challenge and Sanction don't care), the mobbing concern (you can multimark like a champ and punish them all), the NAD concern (honestly, you're not going to get that much better than F15/R15/W16 at level 1) . . . I understand that you've got a Swordmage up and running, but hey, this is here if you need it.

Also, not only is CHA your primary stat, but Paladins also get to add "OF JUSTICE" to the end of anything they say. It's a class feature. Look it up. Anyway, the point is that you can and probably should take Mando's LARGE HAM suggestion.

[Zorana]

I'm a n00b to board posting, but I have read these forums on and off for a few years.

That being said, you should really look at Battlemind for your problems. Specifically, like many have said, a Harrier Battlemind, for this feat:

Harrying Step
Prerequisite: Battlemind, blurred step power, persistent harrier power
Benefit: When you use your blurred step, you can teleport to any square adjacent to the triggering enemy instead of shifting.

Persistent Harrier is one of the powers you choose at class start as a Battlemind. Select that and then Harrying Step, and now when your enemies shift away, even if it is more than 1 square, you just teleport to any square adjacent to them. Now they cannot escape you unless they are willing to simply move away and be subject to your OA.

I don't know what the current set of Encounters you are playing in involves, but you might want to consider a Harrier Battlemind.

Good luck!

[OracleofWuffing]

I hope that my further silence here has helped to underscore exactly how bad my group has been rolling. :smallredface: We even had an additional Warlord and Barbarian join us spontaneously, and we just got our faces TPKed today. Rolling a 5 on initiative after someone decided to waltz up to a thief in a hideout filled with thieves and stab at them was probably not a good choice of strategy. :smallyuk: I was largely ignored for the fight again, because tossing a smoke ball to give things combat advantage doesn't require an attack roll and doesn't set off marks.

Sadly, there was no discussion of next character roll-ups, so I've got little idea of what everyone else is doing. I'm going to bring the Tiefling Paladin idea in here, because I see multi-marking being useful even if I'm low on initiative, and the Harrier Battlemind in case someone else rolls up a Paladin and they do want me to play a defender. I kinda fear getting my brain splattered on a stack of splattered brains that has become sort of a meme for paladins in my circle, but that last battle would have gone completely the other way around if I could have made everyone hit me, and that's not even considering a daily.

Defenders I'm keeping on Hand:
As-of-yet unnamed Tiefling Paladin

level 2
Tiefling, Paladin
Spellscarred Harbinger Starting Feature: Spellscarred Harbinger (Dimension Shift)
Background: Spellscarred Harbinger (+2 to Arcana)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 12, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 20.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 10, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 18.


AC: 22 Fort: 13 Reflex: 16 Will: 17
HP: 33 Surges: 11 Surge Value: 8

TRAINED SKILLS
Religion +5, Intimidate +11, Diplomacy +11, Insight +6

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -1, Arcana +2, Bluff +8, Dungeoneering +1, Endurance -2, Heal +1, History, Nature +1, Perception +1, Stealth +1, Streetwise +6, Thievery -1, Athletics -3

FEATS
Level 1: Wrath of the Crimson Legion
Level 2: Imperious Majesty

POWERS
Lay on Hands: Lay on Hands
Paladin at-will 1: Ardent Strike
Paladin at-will 1: Enfeebling Strike
Paladin encounter 1: Valorous Smite
Paladin daily 1: Majestic Halo
Paladin utility 2: Call of Challenge

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Foe Maker Longsword +1, Badge of the Berserker +1, Magic Plate Armor +1, Floating Shield Heavy Shield (heroic tier)


I think I went a little overboard on the basic concept there, but that's never stopped me before. :smalltongue: Paladin's Wrath and Call of Challenge guarantees the two-round sanction (also my DM went on the record saying that Utility powers suck, so I will be using that second one whenever I can), Valorous Smite if I need it for a third round, and an Item Daily to not-sanction-but-at-least-mark from there. Minor action teleport to, um, get away from all the enemies that are right surrounding me. Imperious Majesty works better than Improved Initiative, but I still want some Dex to work Reflex.

As-of-yet unnamed Mul Battlemind

level 2
Mul, Battlemind
Psionic Study: Persistent Harrier
Born of Two Races: Born of Two Races (Dwarf)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 20, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 11, Con 18, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 10.


AC: 21 Fort: 17 Reflex: 16 Will: 15
HP: 41 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 10

TRAINED SKILLS
Intimidate +6, Endurance +11, Insight +7

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +1, Arcana, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +2, Heal +2, History, Nature +2, Perception +2, Religion, Stealth +1, Streetwise +3, Thievery +1, Athletics -1

FEATS
Level 1: Harrying Step
Level 2: Melee Training (Constitution)

POWERS
Battlemind at-will 1: Conductive Defense
Battlemind at-will 1: Vicious Cobra Strike
Battlemind daily 1: Living Fortress
Battlemind utility 2: Telepathic Challenge

ITEMS
Amulet of Protection +1, Adventurer's Kit, Foe Maker Longsword +1, Shield of Deflection Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Magic Scale Armor +1

Whether or not I kept Wisdom and went with Battlewise was a bit of an issue. The thing is, in order for my Wisdom to be higher than the bonus from Improved Initiative, I'd have to lose Constitution... And all that thought process kind of went out the window when I decided on what feats I needed to operate successfully. Hopefully the +3 initiative will be enough.
Telepathic Challenge was a great buddy last time in the class and what I brought up on that previous DM statement, though it is an annoyance to stand next to my mark to actually see the fireworks go off. I guess the first time around, I thought the teleport was still limited by 1 so I didn't grab it, but reviewing it, um, yeah, that can be kind of really handy for the situations I'm facing. Ongoing Damage and Daze is really common as of late, so that Mul Racial is effectively as useful as some other racials. DM's going to hate me for not grabbing Iron Fist and pumping Wisdom, but if he hates me that much he can go play defender. :smalltongue: I see Conductive Defense as, like, marking twice, which is nice for single encounters, and then Vicious Cobra Strike for multi-marking after that first round.


Of course, I'll also be seeing about other class roles, in the event someone else decided to be the punching bag. It's just a big day for me tomorrow, though, so I'll get some rest on things. Kind of bored of using longswords on all my characters, but they're just so reliable!

[Zaq]

If you don't like longswords, the alhulak from DSCS is basically the same thing (military, d8, +3 prof, versatile), but it's a flail instead of a heavy blade. Oh, and it's really fun to say. And it looks funny. Since you're not going to have enough feats to get any real weapon-specific support on your characters anyway, it's an option in that you lose pretty much absolutely nothing for taking it.

Anyway, regarding your Battlemind, good call on the mul . . . but you and I both know that it's not actually called Incredible Toughness. We all know that it's really called (all together now) IRON HEART SUUUUUUUURRRRRGE!

[Nu]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned in the thread that you might be partial to is the Brawler fighter--while at low level he, like most fighters, is hardly a wall of YOU SHALL NOT PASS; he can immobilize all but the most mobile enemies with ease and not give them any choice in who they can attack. You can't shift while grabbed, and all those powers that let you move without provoking OAs don't let you get away either!

While brawlers are somewhat feat-intensive and thus become even stronger lockdown defenders at mid-levels, they still do their job well at levels 1-3. Grappling Strike is a great at-will.

Make sure your party does its knowledge checks so you know what enemies to tangle with, though. Beating the hard DC means the DM is supposed to tell you what its powers do, and most characters that are trained in the skill and have the relevant ability score boosted can do so with consistency.

[WickerNipple]

The biggest problem I see from your general description seems to be that the party isn't playing or behaving as a team. 4e is a team game. The Defender should be the central component the rest of the party orients their play around.

In that sort of environment I think you're best focusing on one of three builds, two of which you've already keyed on:
-Charisma Paladin - every AoE mark power possible
-Battlemind, conductive defense early then focus heavily on Lightning Rush post-7th lvl
- Shielding Swordmage

All three of these just work irregardless of the rest of the party's behavior. I'd probably choose Paladin as the most idiot-party proof simply because they will see you dishing out AoE mark nastiness starting at 1 ~ and they'll recognize the damage as "you doing something."

Tieflings are certainly the most brutal in this regard with three rounds of punishing AoE sanction every encounter post-2nd lvl. And don't forget you still have Divine Challenge as well. I really doubt you'll need to spend an Item slot on further marking capability.

Dex 12 w/ heavy shield and improved defenses and paladin class bonus seem fine to me. Most early creatures do hit AC ~ from the sound of it I'm guessing stuff like this is a DM issue more than a game issue.

[MeeposFire]

Hybrids force you to consider the mechanics, no doubt about it, but they're not so complicated you can't handle it. Take heart, (player of) Hero(es)!

Dimers' Quick And Dirty, IME, YMMV Guide To Making A Viable Hybrid Defender:

(1) Hybridizing a defender with a defender doesn't usually work well. So pick a second role you'd like to fulfill.



Just note that actually hybriding two defenders can be a very good idea and in some cases is necessary to make it work as a defender. For instance a fighter hybrid has a hard time being a defender since the only time it marks is on a fighter attack. If you add warden or paladin you get another mark so you no longer have to worry and you can get double punishment with the paladin (divine challenge/sanction and an extra mba). Battleminds NEED to hybrid with a marking class otherwise a hybrid battlemind has a difficult time defending in the standard way.

[OracleofWuffing]

Anyway, regarding your Battlemind, good call on the mul . . . but you and I both know that it's not actually called Incredible Toughness. We all know that it's really called (all together now) IRON HEART SUUUUUUUURRRRRGE!
:smalltongue: While the DM is familiar with 3.5 (moreso than 4), the only thing he knows of Tome of Battle is that it is to be referred to by derogatory nicknames. Though, now that the seed is planted, sure, if I end up using that, I'll definitely say that.


Make sure your party does its knowledge checks so you know what enemies to tangle with, though. Beating the hard DC means the DM is supposed to tell you what its powers do, and most characters that are trained in the skill and have the relevant ability score boosted can do so with consistency.
Okay, actually, this might be an important thing that continues on something here. The thing that happened when we tried this sort of thing previously, is that the books themselves do not list a DC for the monsters given in an encounter. As a result of this, there's no information to give for any particular target other than the stat block. And to top it off, there's not a listing as far as which skill should be used to roll for a given enemy. I didn't want to talk about this issue yet because I felt is was a separate issue from our dysfunctional defender dilemma.

So, basically, if we want to make a knowledge roll here, it's like... Okay, I roll Insight. Well, I've never met this guy before, so I don't know a thing about him, even if I rolled high. Religion? Never met this guy in a temple, so, again, I don't know a thing. Arcana? He's not fey, unless he's a really powerful fey. History? Well he's not that old. Nature? He's not a plant, at least not one that I know of. There's nothing related to the skill I'm using that the target has, so there's nothing that I can know about them. And, like, with that kind of reasoning, I really feel that I need an explicit "YOU MAY USE NATURE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT A GHOST DRAGON, EVEN IF THE GHOST DRAGON'S STAT BLOCK DOES NOT SAY SO" to actually call this sort of thing to attention.


In that sort of environment I think you're best focusing on one of three builds, two of which you've already keyed on:
-Charisma Paladin - every AoE mark power possible
-Battlemind, conductive defense early then focus heavily on Lightning Rush post-7th lvl
- Shielding Swordmage
Well, keep in mind that this is levels 1-3, and right now we're in level 2 territory in the season. My Shielding Swordmage was inside recent TPK already, just basically getting overwhelmed by enemies and struck with bad luck on initiative. But, yes, agreed that that Paladin's the way to go if nobody else is defending next time around.


Most early creatures do hit AC ~ from the sound of it I'm guessing stuff like this is a DM issue more than a game issue.
I reiterate: these are prepublished modules where the only time my DM actually modified the encounters was a few seasons ago to run at a higher level- and even then, the roles of enemies, targeted defenses, and effects of powers were not changed. I believe that what you're saying about early creatures is correct about all 4e monsters ever, but whoever's writing these books is using monsters to the contrary to some definition of frequently.


Just note that actually hybriding two defenders can be a very good idea and in some cases is necessary to make it work as a defender.
Gaaaah but my brain's already melted from the first time I peeked into hybrid characters! :smalltongue: Maybe not this week, but I will keep it in mind and see what I can make with that advice later. :smallsmile:

[Hiro Protagonest]

:smalltongue: While the DM is familiar with 3.5 (moreso than 4), the only thing he knows of Tome of Battle is that it is to be referred to by derogatory nicknames. Though, now that the seed is planted, sure, if I end up using that, I'll definitely say that.

I like to think calling it anime (and by extension, Book of Weaboo Fightan Magic) is a compliment. Roronoa Zoro is like, the Iron Heart warblade, and he's awesome. So keep on calling it anime and thinking it's an insult, I'll sit here and read One Piece. :smallamused:

Whoever said the problem was teamwork: that and stupid tactics. Never let the guy who stabbed a thief in a room full of them ever do anything before coming up with a good plan.

[Nu]

Okay, actually, this might be an important thing that continues on something here. The thing that happened when we tried this sort of thing previously, is that the books themselves do not list a DC for the monsters given in an encounter. As a result of this, there's no information to give for any particular target other than the stat block. And to top it off, there's not a listing as far as which skill should be used to roll for a given enemy. I didn't want to talk about this issue yet because I felt is was a separate issue from our dysfunctional defender dilemma.

So, basically, if we want to make a knowledge roll here, it's like... Okay, I roll Insight. Well, I've never met this guy before, so I don't know a thing about him, even if I rolled high. Religion? Never met this guy in a temple, so, again, I don't know a thing. Arcana? He's not fey, unless he's a really powerful fey. History? Well he's not that old. Nature? He's not a plant, at least not one that I know of. There's nothing related to the skill I'm using that the target has, so there's nothing that I can know about them. And, like, with that kind of reasoning, I really feel that I need an explicit "YOU MAY USE NATURE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT A GHOST DRAGON, EVEN IF THE GHOST DRAGON'S STAT BLOCK DOES NOT SAY SO" to actually call this sort of thing to attention.

Okay. This is all outlined in the Rules Compendium. Page 126 has the DC table, you use the monster's level on that. Monster Knowledge checks are outlined on page 130--the check you need for a particular monster is based on its origin and keywords. For example, a monster that is a "natural beast" has the natural origin, so Nature is the related check. A "fey magical beast" has the fey origin, so it's an Arcana check, and so on. Creatures that have two or more related checks, like say a dracolich that's a natural magical beast (dragon, undead), could call for Nature, Religion, or both, and the decision is left to the DM.

The moderate DC gives you the monster's origin, type, keywords, and general temperament. The hard DC gives you its vulnerabilities, resistances, and powers.

[OracleofWuffing]

Whoever said the problem was teamwork: that and stupid tactics. Never let the guy who stabbed a thief in a room full of them ever do anything before coming up with a good plan.
Well, let's be fair here. At the time, it sounded like a good plan. We were to go to a thieves' hideout filled with thieves and kill the head thief. We were at the thieves' hideout, so the Barbarian said, "Well, um... Can I hit the head thief right now?" before anybody was hostile, so we'd get a surprise round. Uh, sadly, illusions were involved, and um, we ended up getting surprise rounded. And the Wizard whiffed his daily. And then the Cleric got dazed. And then we found out that the Warlord was made with no Strength bonus so a thief just walked up to her and the Wizard. And then the Barbarian got stabbed to death. And then a thief walked up to the ranged Ranger. And... Okay, see where I'm going with that whole "Multi-marking would have helped a lot," here? :smalltongue:


The moderate DC gives you the monster's origin, type, keywords, and general temperament. The hard DC gives you its vulnerabilities, resistances, and powers.
Thanks... I'll try to have copies of the corresponding pages made. I don't think it would have made too much of a difference recently, but at least it'll be something, and I guess it's a take-what-you-can-get situation.

Anywho, other characters I'll be playing in case everyone else is good without a defender or that role's filled well enough:

As-of-yet unnamed Alf-Ork Rouge Rogue
level 2
Half-Orc, Rogue
Spellscarred Harbinger Starting Feature: Spellscarred Harbinger (Vanish)
Rogue Tactics: Brutal Scoundrel
Rogue: Rogue Weapon Talent
Background: Disbeliever (+2 to Insight)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 10, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 10, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 12.


AC: 18 Fort: 16 Reflex: 18 Will: 13
HP: 27 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 6

TRAINED SKILLS
Stealth +10, Thievery +10, Insight +8, Perception +6, Acrobatics +10, Athletics +10

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +1, Bluff +2, Diplomacy +2, Dungeoneering +1, Endurance +3, Heal +1, History +1, Intimidate +4, Nature +1, Religion +1, Streetwise +2

FEATS
Level 1: Backstabber
Level 2: Thirst for Battle

POWERS
Rogue at-will 1: Duelist's Flurry
Rogue at-will 1: Riposte Strike
Rogue encounter 1: Acrobat's Blade Trick
Rogue daily 1: Pommel Smash
Rogue utility 2: Plague Disruption

ITEMS
Adventurer's Kit, Magic Leather Armor +1, Subtle Short sword +1, Challenge-Seeking Short sword +1, Badge of the Berserker +1
Last Rogue we had basically went the whole encounter whining about not getting Sneak Attack on anything and how he shoulda just played Ranger. Thought I'd give it a try. I mean, I guess Twin Strike would have been nice for everything, but Rangers all the time get boring. I figured the Challenge-Seeking works best for the extra dice theme, and then the Subtle for after the first round, not like I could use a shield or something there.

As-of-yet unnamed Razorclaw Shifter Druid
level 2
Razorclaw Shifter, Druid
Spellscarred Harbinger Starting Feature: Spellscarred Harbinger (Vanish)
Primal Aspect: Primal Predator
Background: Birth - Blessed (+2 to Insight)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 12, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 18, Cha 10.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 10, Con 12, Dex 16, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 10.


AC: 19 Fort: 13 Reflex: 17 Will: 17
HP: 29 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Nature +10, History +6, Insight +12, Perception +11

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +6, Arcana +1, Bluff +1, Diplomacy +1, Dungeoneering +5, Endurance +1, Heal +5, Intimidate +1, Religion +1, Stealth +6, Streetwise +1, Thievery +4, Athletics

FEATS
Druid: Ritual Caster
Level 1: Improved Initiative
Level 2: Superior Implement Training (Accurate staff)

POWERS
Druid at-will 1: Fire Hawk
Druid at-will 1: Call of the Beast
Druid at-will 1: Savage Rend
Druid encounter 1: Thorn Spray
Druid daily 1: Earth Roots
Druid utility 2: Warding Wind

ITEMS
Ritual Book, Accurate staff of Expansion +1, Life Vine Hide Armor +1, Amulet of Protection +1, Adventurer's Kit, Headband of Perception (heroic tier)
RITUALS
Animal Messenger, Comrades' Succor
Because I fear other defenders won't do it too well, either. Given, you know, thief hideout, denying CA should be kind of useful. -5 to defenses will help when our dice aren't ready to, and repeatedly slowing people once a day should be fun.

As-of-yet unnamed Dragonborn Warlord
level 2
Dragonborn, Warlord
Spellscarred Harbinger Starting Feature: Spellscarred Harbinger (Vanish)
Archer Warlord Optional Choice: Standard Warlord Armor Features
Warlord: Battlefront Leader
Commanding Presence: Resourceful Presence
Dragonborn Racial Power: Dragonfear
Background: Dragonborn - Brush with the Past (+2 to History)

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
Str 18, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 16.

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
Str 16, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 14.


AC: 20 Fort: 17 Reflex: 16 Will: 16
HP: 28 Surges: 7 Surge Value: 7

TRAINED SKILLS
Endurance +3, Diplomacy +9, Athletics +7, History +12

UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics -2, Arcana +3, Bluff +4, Dungeoneering +1, Heal +1, Insight +1, Intimidate +6, Nature +1, Perception +1, Religion +3, Stealth -2, Streetwise +4, Thievery -2

FEATS
Level 1: Inspirational Attacker
Level 2: Improved Inspiring Word

POWERS
Warlord at-will 1: Direct the Strike
Warlord at-will 1: Furious Smash
Warlord encounter 1: Hammer Formation
Warlord daily 1: Bastion of Defense
Warlord utility 2: Inspired Belligerence

ITEMS
Mage's Drow Long Knife +1, Shield of Protection Heavy Shield (heroic tier), Magic Chainmail +1, Amulet of Protection +1, Adventurer's Kit
I've just about had it with hearing that Warlords spend the whole fight doing nothing but letting other people attack. I mean, this is the first time I looked at them, and I can tell all this stuff they do when someone takes an action point has never once appeared in previous sessions. Yes, I can make people do that if I want, but on the other hand, I can walk up to enemies, hit them, and give someone a +3 hit and damage, or give everyone an extra [W] damage. Oh, and heal.

[OracleofWuffing]

Whelp, um...

Er...

Well... It turns out we weren't TPK'ed last week. I had to leave early due to things, and I mean, given that situation, and the DM telling me to just roll up a new character, I hope we can all understand why that conclusion was jumped to. Apparently, the Ranger and Wizard ended up winning the entire thing while everyone else kept rolling death saving throws.

Regardless, I ended up switching in "Power of Devils" the Paladin due mostly to the fact that that Swordmage was still at level 1 and I didn't want to slow the table down levelling him up to level 2. I landed exactly one hit across four turns and did seven damage total, ended up making a death saving throw on round 2, but at the end of the session I asked everyone if they wanted me to keep with this guy or switch to my old guy, and there was a unanimous "This guy" there. Save for that round I was dying, all enemies were marked all the time.

:smallfrown: Monster knowledge checks are a no-go. Despite having the rules right there, reading them verbatim at the table, the DM ruled that the battle would be more interesting if we didn't know the monster's type, powers, vulnerabilities, and such. All we got from a 23 was "They are plants."

[The Reverend]

i hate to be negative Oracle but it sounds like your DM may not be.....uh... how do i say this....he may in fact not be the most able dm and not very good at the parts he is able at. its a rule you follow the rules at that point I would start making up my abilities and numbers frankly.

another way to have fun if your team isn't cooperating and trying to be a four part batman that they totally should be is have your character shout "hahahaha you fell for my clever rouse" and start team killing.

[OracleofWuffing]

:smalltongue: It's always been tempting, but like I said, only game in town, though internet is always an option.

[Nu]

Well, that's just silly on the part of the DM. I can understand not wanting you to give a word by word description of what the monster's powers do, but you should at least be able to get a general idea of how it approaches combat with a high enough knowledge check. That's part of the reason such skills exist, especially in an encounters-type setting!

[Zaq]

:smallfrown: Monster knowledge checks are a no-go. Despite having the rules right there, reading them verbatim at the table, the DM ruled that the battle would be more interesting if we didn't know the monster's type, powers, vulnerabilities, and such. All we got from a 23 was "They are plants."

If I were a more spiteful person, I'd suggest that you tell your GM that it's more interesting if the monsters don't know what you're doing, then make him guess how much damage you're doing and what effects you're applying. Turn it into a game of Mao.

Now, granted, there's no way that's going to end well, and it'll just make you look like an ass, but that's what the spiteful part of me is suggesting. The rational part of me advises against doing so.

Anyway, if reading the rules at the table doesn't make him want to play by the rules . . . well, that's a tough situation. I'd talk to him out of game and try to get him to explain himself, since that's kind of like saying "Nah, saving throws don't exist anymore. It'll be more interesting if I just decide when you break free of those effects. Now hush, you're slowing down the game." Kinda not classy. If he can't deal with you knowing what a monster does, there are some issues.

[The Reverend]

Get a d20 modern book, copy out the stats for stank cannon, use those stats for you're melee weapon.



Every time you roll yell BOOOOOOOOOM!. If hr asks what attack r u using make him do a skill check with his monsters to figure it out.

alternately come to game with a new character, dont tell him anything about it.

[Mando Knight]

Get a d20 modern book, copy out the stats for stank cannon, use those stats for you're melee weapon.
Your punch is now a warship. That opens its forward bay doors to unleash a flurry of firepower from its carried contingent of war machines.

[OracleofWuffing]

I'd talk to him out of game and try to get him to explain himself,
That is, actually, where he told me that he felt that the game would have been more interesting if we had not received such information.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I agree that it is somewhat contrary to certain 4e design principles to do that to monster knowledge checks, but he's the DM and rule Zero is still applicable. I know that it might seem exploitative to others for him to rule in such a manner, but the DM's a player, too, and has just as much a prerogative to have fun as I do (if not more so, game still happens sans one player, game does not happen sans one DM, etc). It really doesn't seem like that big of a deal to push farther on the matter.

[Onikani]

Oracle,

I have skimmed this entire thread and i do know that you are considering the Tiefling Paladin.

However i can say that after building and playing with my Warden I simply cannot go back to playing anything else. Naturally i will play whatever role the party may need, but it just isn't the same (i'm in 2 different games atm, both of which began after the warden game ended).

The baseline for Warden marking is they mark every enemy adjacent to them with a free action. They are still limited to marking once per turn, but they can do it any time during that turn (like even in the middle of a move). And they have different forms of punishment based on how far away the enemy is (AoO against adjacent ones, and a 2square pull as an immediate interrupt against non adjacent ones.

Meanwhile they can have the highest possible AC and HP in the game, almost every attack can stop opponents dead in their tracks, and with the correct build they pull near striker level DPS.

I could go on for days, but won't if you have already commited to the pally, let me know if you are interested and we can chat some more (probably best if you PM me) - I'll even send you my build if you like.

[MeeposFire]

Oracle,

I have skimmed this entire thread and i do know that you are considering the Tiefling Paladin.

However i can say that after building and playing with my Warden I simply cannot go back to playing anything else. Naturally i will play whatever role the party may need, but it just isn't the same (i'm in 2 different games atm, both of which began after the warden game ended).

The baseline for Warden marking is they mark every enemy adjacent to them with a free action. They are still limited to marking once per turn, but they can do it any time during that turn (like even in the middle of a move). And they have different forms of punishment based on how far away the enemy is (AoO against adjacent ones, and a 2square pull as an immediate interrupt against non adjacent ones.

Meanwhile they can have the highest possible AC and HP in the game, almost every attack can stop opponents dead in their tracks, and with the correct build they pull near striker level DPS.

I could go on for days, but won't if you have already commited to the pally, let me know if you are interested and we can chat some more (probably best if you PM me) - I'll even send you my build if you like.

Wardens do not have the best AC in the game. You can easily do better with a swordmage.

[The Reverend]

True wardens may not have the highest ac in the game. You couldn't beat a swordmage ac with a stick, you could beat a warden with a stick.....but eventually your arm would give out and he would still have surges left. (Rimshot)

[Onikani]

I'd like to see evidence of this, I crunched the AC and NAD numbers of every defending class, at every level assuming appropriate gear, feats and paths.

At every single point a Warden's AC came out above all others or tied with the other highest.

I'm not so bold to say that i didn't miss something, but if i did, i'd like to know what it is so i can revise my sheets.
:)


EDIT - I should probably mention that i did not look into multiclassing, or temporary boosts from powers. My AC's are strictly the highest obtainable static static ac's available based on every class.
Also for reference i used several commonly accepted builds (shield vs short-hafted fighters for example).

EDIT2 - See the post below for a further analysis and an error :smallredface:
Like i said, i'm quite sure i missed something, and am more than willing to make the necessary adjustments...

[Mando Knight]

At every single point a Warden's AC came out above all others or tied with the other highest.

I'm not so bold to say that i didn't miss something, but if i did, i'd like to know what it is so i can revise my sheets.
I'd need to see how you got those results.

Level 1 Paladin, Plate and Heavy Shield: 20 AC
Level 1 Swordmage, Leather, 20 Int: 20 AC
Level 1 Warden, Hide and Heavy Shield, 16 in secondary: 18 AC

Level 30 Paladin, +6 Godplate and Heavy Shield, +1 feat: 48 AC
Level 30 Swordmage, +6 Star Leather, 30 Int (maximum), +2 (Improved and Greater Warding): 51 AC
Level 30 Swordmage, +6 Star Leather, 28 Int (max if started with 18), +1 feat: 49 AC
Level 30 Warden, +6 Elder Hide and Heavy Shield, +1 feat, 26 secondary: 47 AC

This isn't counting any strange tricks I'm unaware of for the Warden further boosting his base AC, but it should be clear from here that unless he specializes in maximizing his AC, he'll have less than most Paladins or Swordmages.

[Nu]

That is, actually, where he told me that he felt that the game would have been more interesting if we had not received such information.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I agree that it is somewhat contrary to certain 4e design principles to do that to monster knowledge checks, but he's the DM and rule Zero is still applicable. I know that it might seem exploitative to others for him to rule in such a manner, but the DM's a player, too, and has just as much a prerogative to have fun as I do (if not more so, game still happens sans one player, game does not happen sans one DM, etc). It really doesn't seem like that big of a deal to push farther on the matter.

I'm a DM (for 4E) too, and I can't agree with that logic. You don't want to detail exactly what every single power does for the players? Okay. And maybe you don't give them very much information about the unique, one-of-a-kind BBEG that's crawling out of a portal to the Far Realm.

However, I think it's just spiteful to say "they are plants" to a knowledge check of 23 for monsters appropriate for an encounter meant for level 1-2 players.

(Oh, and I'm using the second person hypothetically, I know you're not the DM)

[Onikani]

I'd need to see how you got those results.

Level 1 Paladin, Plate and Heavy Shield: 20 AC
Level 1 Swordmage, Leather, 20 Int: 20 AC
Level 1 Warden, Hide and Heavy Shield, 16 in secondary: 18 AC

Level 30 Paladin, +6 Godplate and Heavy Shield, +1 feat: 48 AC
Level 30 Swordmage, +6 Star Leather, 30 Int (maximum), +2 (Improved and Greater Warding): 51 AC
Level 30 Swordmage, +6 Star Leather, 28 Int (max if started with 18), +1 feat: 49 AC
Level 30 Warden, +6 Elder Hide and Heavy Shield, +1 feat, 26 secondary: 47 AC

This isn't counting any strange tricks I'm unaware of for the Warden further boosting his base AC, but it should be clear from here that unless he specializes in maximizing his AC, he'll have less than most Paladins or Swordmages.

I used the base logic that no one begins with a primary pre-racial 18 (it's pretty much unplayable for a tank and we all know it :smallsmile:), but a 16 for both primary and secondary is realistic. Assume the warden has a 16 pre-racial in his secondary, which was then bumped to 18 with racial.
In epic Tier, Second Skin gives you a +2 feat bonus, not a +1 (this is a basic feat which essentially is a retraining of armor spec: hide).

I'd be hard pressed to say that any class that starts with dual 16's, racials in each and takes 1 phb1 feat is "specializing" in anything, and we both seem to agree that 1 feat is "OK" for this purpose.

And yes, the Warden has AC boosting powers/forms, class feats for even higher boosts, and silly little tricks like using a Hammer Shield in the late Heroic. But then most tanks have such tricks and as i mentioned i didn't include the use of powers, i just calculated the highest expected static AC.

In any case, this is where i had it landing at 30:

Level 30 Paladin: +6 Godplate and Heavy Shield, +1 feat: 48 AC
Level 30 Swordmage, +15 levels, +11 armor (+6 Star Leather), +9 stat, +3 Warding, +1 feat: 49 AC
Level 30 Warden: +15 levels, +12 armor (+6 Elder Hide), +2 Heavy Shield, +9 stat, +2 feat: 49 AC

As i said, highest or tied with the highest.
But, i had missed the scaling bonus from Greater Swordmage Warding in Epic tier. :smallcool:

Charts are corrected and it does put them a point ahead in Epic Tier.
Also, it does put wardens behind plate until level 8, an oversight of mine in the prior post.
Thanks for helping me fix that. :smallbiggrin:

[Mando Knight]

I used the base logic that no one begins with a primary pre-racial 18 (it's pretty much unplayable for a tank and we all know it :smallsmile:), but a 16 for both primary and secondary is realistic. Assume the warden has a 16 pre-racial in his secondary, which was then bumped to 18 with racial.
Actually... it is entirely possible for a Swordmage to begin with 20 Int: it determines both their primary defense and their attack stat. Heavy armor characters can do so for the same reason if they don't derive much from their secondary (Fighters (especially Knights) and some Paladins in particular). A double 16 pre-racial actually takes as many points as an 18/12 pre-racial spread, and since you're limiting yourself to races that have a Str/Wis or Str/Con racial spread and in the case of a Str/Con spread you're sacrificing a NAD for the AC, I'd say you are essentially specializing in AC. (I personally consider a 16/14 pre-racial spread more "normal," but that might be because I don't like taking multiple dump stats...)

Compare this to the Knight or Paladin: Plate armor and a Heavy Shield is practically standard issue for them: all they have to do to get it is shell out the cash for it or get it in the loot. They have less room to improve via feats and other choices (though there is the Agile Armor enchant for heavy armors that will ramp up your AC until you get bloodied, provided you have decent Dex), but they can spread out their secondary stats however they wish because they don't need to focus on one to keep their AC up. And they can sacrifice a couple points of AC for damage resistance if they think their AC is high enough anyway...

In epic Tier, Second Skin gives you a +2 feat bonus, not a +1 (this is a basic feat which essentially is a retraining of armor spec: hide).
Aha. I'm not as familiar with Primal classes as I am with Martial, Divine, or Arcane, so that feat escaped my notice.

[Onikani]

Actually... it is entirely possible for a Swordmage to begin with 20 Int: it determines both their primary defense and their attack stat. Heavy armor characters can do so for the same reason if they don't derive much from their secondary (Fighters (especially Knights) and some Paladins in particular). A double 16 pre-racial actually takes as many points as an 18/12 pre-racial spread, and since you're limiting yourself to races that have a Str/Wis or Str/Con racial spread and in the case of a Str/Con spread you're sacrificing a NAD for the AC, I'd say you are essentially specializing in AC. (I personally consider a 16/14 pre-racial spread more "normal," but that might be because I don't like taking multiple dump stats...)



Well put, especially about the case of sacrificing a NAD. And I'll take a good look at Swordmage in the near future, much like you, I know the Primal classes much better than i know the arcane ones, (lol this will likely mean more revisions to my charts). :smallcool:

Meanwhile i recommend you take a good look at Earthstrength Wardens sometime, the extra points in con are indeed wasted on Fort, but reflex is balanced somewhat by the bonus from the shield, and wisdom is their tertiary stat and they get a +1 class bonus to Will.

The main thing to consider is that ALL of a ES Warden's riders are con based. So besides the obvious HP/AC bonuses, you pump it for multiple reasons, reasons that i would argue are more important than the last point of AC bonus.
Three clear examples:

At 1st Level Encounter (Gale Strike) gives you 2[w] + st to your primary target and con dmg to all targets marked by you (with the ability to mark everything adjacent to you as a free action, this adds up quickly).

At 7th level (Mountain Hammer)you can debuff your enemy's attacks by 1+con bonus.

Paired with the feat Crushing Earthblow, con bonus gets added to many of your powers and becomes a huge DPS boost: Weight of Earth, an at will, becomes [w] + str + con damage (d10+8 at level 1). And the damage continues to scale well throughout heroic and paragon tiers (Rough Strike, 3rd level encounter, becomes 2[w]+st+2xcon+slowed).

As a quick aside, Many of a Warden's powers Slow (including the aforementioned at wills), so paired with World Serpents Grasp you can keep adding your con to damage, while keeping your opponent Slowed and Prone.


Honestly, IMO in the case of ES wardens the extra bonus to the AC is a perk that comes with building the class effectively, not the other way around.
But this is a subtlety that only players of the class would recognize until it is pointed out by another (much like the viability of putting an 18 into int for Swordmage) :smallwink:
Seriously, check it out, and i'll PM you a build if you like.


Thanks again, and Cheers.

EDIT - added the description for Gale Strike

[MeeposFire]

10+15 (level)+10 (int)+2 (feat bonus) +3 (warding)+6 (enhancement) + 5 (hide or leather+imp warding)+1 (spiked shield)+1 (rhythm blade)=53 without trying. 51 if you want to be able to deal more damage and so will not go for a spiked shield build.

Wardens are the "toughest" defenders but other than that they are good but not amazing. Damage is better on a fighter and they are stickier. Swordmages and paladins have better punishments on non-adjacent foes. Battleminds can annoy non-marked targets better. The warden can do fairly well at all of these but they are not the best out of any of them outside of toughness (which they are really nice at especially due to the font of life ability).

[Onikani]

10+15 (level) +10 (int) +2 (feat bonus) +3 (warding) +6 (enhancement) + 5 (hide or leather+imp warding)+1 (spiked shield)+1 (rhythm blade)=53 without trying. 51 if you want to be able to deal more damage and so will not go for a spiked shield build.


We've already established that a 51 is very possible, but a 53?



This field provides a +1 bonus to AC, or a +3 bonus if you are wielding a blade in one hand and have your other hand free (not carrying a shield, an off-hand weapon, a two-handed weapon, or anything else).

So tell me again how you are getting the bonus from warding and a shield bonus, and a bonus from an offhand weapon?




Damage is better on a fighter and they are stickier.

This is highly build dependent and while its true that each can outshine the other at various levels, they are relatively equal overall, when built properly



Swordmages and paladins have better punishments on non-adjacent foes.

Sliding the enemy 2 squares away from the ally usually prevents the attack (ally is no longer in range). This may not be a damage punishment, but which is better is clearly up to interpretation.


The warden can do fairly well at all of these but they are not the best out of any of them outside of toughness (which they are really nice at especially due to the font of life ability).

You are correct, yes (except toughness) they are second best at nearly everything another tank can do. Most classes accel in some areas while completely sucking in others, and the ability to do everything competently makes for a very well-rounded PC, (in teh case of a tank, this is arguably the best type).
The OP mentioned a bunch of weaknesses he's experienced in tanks for various reason, and i mentioned a class that has no real weaknesses when built properly.


EDIT - some quotes.

[Zaq]

So tell me again how you are getting the bonus from warding and a shield bonus, and a bonus from an offhand weapon?


Simple. A spiked shield is a light blade. Carry one in your main hand. Carry nothing in your off-hand. Done.

[Onikani]

Simple. A spiked shield is a light blade. Carry one in your main hand. Carry nothing in your off-hand. Done.



While you wield this weapon in your off hand, your shield bonus to AC and Reflex increases by 1.

Yep, simple.

EDIT
And i'm pretty sure somewhere it'll say that if you use a shield to attack (or as an implement) you don't get it's bonus to ac.

[The Reverend]

I'm very happy with my warden and I think I found his ideal position. I guard the flank using my ability to create lots of hindering terrain as a deterrent and to force them another way. The weapon choice is two fold, either a reach weapon to strike enemies caught in my web of hindering terrain or shield and hammer since the warden feats lean on hammer use. Im negotiating with my dm for a Polehammer so i can have the best of both. Wardens also play well with others, my leader doesn't have to heal me as often so i can afford to either stayback and guard squishees or use a tactical hole in the enemies setup and lockdown a group of enemies. In that case i go ahead and tell the artillary to rain down on us since I've got the points to spare. Wardens also work well with the highly mobile defenders blocking retreats, protecting the rear, and being a living wall while they get on with Pro-active defense supporting the front.

I always go ahead and spend a feat or two on Xtra surges so i can use items powers and give my surge to a down ally.

[MeeposFire]

Yep, simple.

EDIT
And i'm pretty sure somewhere it'll say that if you use a shield to attack (or as an implement) you don't get it's bonus to ac.

Nope that is a 3e rule not a 4e rule. Also wrist razors are not held in the hand (and keep your hand free) but are an off hand weapon. Or I can just declare my spiked shield my off hand weapon and wield my fist in my main hand (once again nothing in one hand). Take your pick. Also realize I can do even more by making a hybrid swordmage by getting shadow walk via warlock and assassin multiclass. OR by buying a shadowband or other items. This is just the basic items and feats (notice I could spend more feats and get a shield bonus another way and pick up a defensive weapons). While this is not my preferred method of playing a SM I think you should be able to see that defenses, particulary AC, are better on a SM than a warden.

[surfarcher]

I'd need to see how you got those results.

Level 1 Paladin, Plate and Heavy Shield: 20 AC
Level 1 Swordmage, Leather, 20 Int: 20 AC
Level 1 Warden, Hide and Heavy Shield, 16 in secondary: 18 AC

Level 30 Paladin, +6 Godplate and Heavy Shield, +1 feat: 48 AC
Level 30 Swordmage, +6 Star Leather, 30 Int (maximum), +2 (Improved and Greater Warding): 51 AC
Level 30 Swordmage, +6 Star Leather, 28 Int (max if started with 18), +1 feat: 49 AC
Level 30 Warden, +6 Elder Hide and Heavy Shield, +1 feat, 26 secondary: 47 AC

This isn't counting any strange tricks I'm unaware of for the Warden further boosting his base AC, but it should be clear from here that unless he specializes in maximizing his AC, he'll have less than most Paladins or Swordmages.

At level 1 our Dwarf Chaladin had AC 21...

[Mando Knight]

Sliding the enemy 2 squares away from the ally usually prevents the attack (ally is no longer in range). This may not be a damage punishment, but which is better is clearly up to interpretation.
Unless I'm missing something again, Warden's Grasp is a Reaction, which means the attack will connect. I'm assuming that's what power you're talking about and you've found a feat or something that boosts the slide to 2...

Overall, though, Paladins have the best multimarking abilities since the release of Divine Power, as their Divine Sanction guarantees damage without taking an action to activate. For adjacent opponents, they're probably all roughly even, and for a skirmishing/defending playstyle, there's nothing better than the Swordmage (since they don't need to do anything to maintain their marks and have an activation radius of 10 squares, 20 squares in Epic).

EDIT
And i'm pretty sure somewhere it'll say that if you use a shield to attack (or as an implement) you don't get it's bonus to ac.
Nope. There's a feat to sacrifice your Shield bonus for an extra +1 to damage, though, but I don't think anyone actually considers taking it.

[Nu]

Paired with the feat Crushing Earthblow, con bonus gets added to many of your powers and becomes a huge DPS boost: Weight of Earth, an at will, becomes [w] + str + con damage (d10+8 at level 1). And the damage continues to scale well throughout heroic and paragon tiers (Rough Strike, 3rd level encounter, becomes 2[w]+st+2xcon+slowed).

I assume you mean Crippling Crush. Crushing Earthstrength only works for 1 turn after a second wind.

Though it is kind of funny how many times you can add Con mod to damage in some cases. If you pick up a Maw of the Guardian weapon, it adds your Con mod to damage whenever you're in a guardian form.

[surfarcher]

Yeah they are great multi-markers and their ranged mark can be very nice.

They do need to make some decent feat investments to really make their mark sting tho (Bitter Challenge, etc).

Notice they have plenty of options for increasing the versatility of their defender aspect - e.g., take the Guardian theme and Battle Awareness.

[OracleofWuffing]

Aaaand we were TPKed for reals this time. :smallfrown:

Good news, I guess, is that the group's pretty unanimous that I had no part in contributing to that downward spiral. It was a mix of things like the Cleric getting a -2 to all defenses for failing a skill challenge prior to the encounter, the Cleric walking into flanking enemies before I could mark everything, the Cleric spending her heals all on herself, the Wizard attempting to heal check the fallen Cleric instead of nuking the enemies and letting the Cleric get hit in the crossfire, the Ranger forgetting he has an encounter power that's slightly better than Twin Strike, and the Ranger doing a total of 5 damage on a twin strike with both attacks hitting before the swarm halved that damage. I got a... Very disapproving attitude from my DM today, because apparently he never understood what Divine Sanction meant until today, and threw a hissy fit that, "Paladin marks do not go off unless they're standing next to the enemy." That, that one, you're free to whine about being a bad decision, I've got nothing to defend that. Twenty minutes of reading over the text later, he caved in there. Yes, I did have the text of it written on my character sheet, yes, he has been carrying my sheet around for two weeks, yes, he still wanted to look at the book for it.

Environmental damage played a role in this, too, as apparently the monsters we were fighting could slide us into damaging terrain, and we didn't get a save against that- I asked, he said no. We have had previous seasons where the shoe was the other way around, and enemies did get a saving throw. Needless to say, an attack that slides a target into hindering terrain apparently doesn't set off Sanction. *shrug* I don't know the actual monster block, though, so I wouldn't be surprised if this was just another "More interesting" on-the-fly decision.

I am probably playing the role of Leader this next time around. I say probably because, again, I was supposed to play controller this time around. :smalltongue: I'm a bit concerned that I won't be able to heal as much as the group is used to, but I want to wean the group away from the "Leaders are only good for healing" mentality they have. Another person is probably playing a Rogue, the same person who played controller this time around- maybe he'll like Dragonfear.

---

As far as this Warden talk goes... I'm really getting the vibe that they're not that hot for the area I'm playing here. Grasp is a Reaction, so it only works after the damage has been done, and Fury's only good if the enemy stands next to me. Now, I know Treacherous Ice was brought up earlier in the thread, but again, I don't have access to all this really awesome sounding stuff because these are levels 1-3, effectively just level 2 right now. For the same reason, I'm unlikely to get a Maw of the Guardian weapon. :smallfrown: It's not the Warden, honest, it's the lack of levels!

Don't get me wrong, 1d10+9 At-Will is still impressive for level 2 (very impressive for a Defender, even), but my capability to mark multiple enemies is reliant either Thorn Strike to pull enemies close to me so I can mark them (which doesn't slow them so it's just 1d10+5), or getting targeted by a save-ends effect and saving (which is 1/encounter and only lasts 1 turn).

[Tegu8788]

It sounds like your DM doesn't want to play. He wants to dominate. Cheese all the way.

[Zaq]

Whatever you end up playing, I think you should sit down with your GM a few days before showtime, go over every single little thing your build can do, and make sure he's not going to get pissy about any of them.

[Nu]

I should note that Form of Winter's Herald is a level 1 daily that does basically the same thing as Treacherous Ice, but in an attack form. Treacherous Ice is just for when you can't use that. While hunting for low-level weapons for a warden, a Defensive Weapon is reasonable for a dwarf, as wardens love to use their second wind.

If you wanna try and wean them off of the "leaders only good for healing" mentality, warlord might be a good option. They're not so great on healing, but they can make a big difference.

...Though as for your DM, he doesn't sound like he likes the idea of playing by the rules.

[The Reverend]

Wardens mark whoever next to them once a round. Last game I was sneaky and used a move action and marked enemies on the move.

But frankly it sounds like it doesn't matter what you play as you are stuck with a killer dm. Actually I dont think anyone gets a save when getting slid thru stuff, off ledges and into pits yes. Start playing silly, halfling monk, minotaur wizard, drow paladin, dwarf rogue so you can at least have fun.

[OracleofWuffing]

Eh... I mean, you can pull out cheese at any level, but the amount of cheese you can get to at level 2 isn't really all that sharp. Plus, any arms race against a DM is going to end up with the DM on top. :smallyuk:

You can see the Warlord build I'm going to be bringing back on post 35 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11951747&postcount=35). I haven't seen anything major that want to change, the only thing I can think of is if my feats towards Inspiring Word don't stack, but it sounds like they do.

[Nu]

Eh... I mean, you can pull out cheese at any level, but the amount of cheese you can get to at level 2 isn't really all that sharp. Plus, any arms race against a DM is going to end up with the DM on top. :smallyuk:

You can see the Warlord build I'm going to be bringing back on post 35 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11951747&postcount=35). I haven't seen anything major that want to change, the only thing I can think of is if my feats towards Inspiring Word don't stack, but it sounds like they do.

I take it you don't like powers that grant attacks?

[OracleofWuffing]

I take it you don't like powers that grant attacks?
It's not that I don't like them, it's just that I have Direct the Strike and don't really see a reason to double up on them. The only party member I know anything about is probably going to be a Rogue, so his MBA is probably going to be 1d6+mod and he's probably already snuck attacked by the time my initiative is up. If I have to be adjacent to an enemy that he's attacking, I'd rather give him bonus damage and accuracy on his next Sneak Attack than let him poke again for the same damage I'd do. In other party concerns, well, Controllers don't usually do the whole MBA thing (and those that would, I cannot imagine anyone in my party taking up), and Defenders are either Fighters or need to go out of their way to make their MBAs bite.

[Zaq]

It's not that I don't like them, it's just that I have Direct the Strike and don't really see a reason to double up on them. The only party member I know anything about is probably going to be a Rogue, so his MBA is probably going to be 1d6+mod and he's probably already snuck attacked by the time my initiative is up. If I have to be adjacent to an enemy that he's attacking, I'd rather give him bonus damage and accuracy on his next Sneak Attack than let him poke again for the same damage I'd do. In other party concerns, well, Controllers don't usually do the whole MBA thing (and those that would, I cannot imagine anyone in my party taking up), and Defenders are either Fighters or need to go out of their way to make their MBAs bite.

SA got changed to be once per turn, not once per round. It's like AoOs, now. Of course, unless your Rogue is STR-secondary, their MBA will probably not be too accurate . . . but do note that Direct the Strike says "basic attack," not "melee basic attack," so you can order them to fling a dagger and it's all good.

Anyway, yeah, it's hard to really make MBAs (or RBAs) terribly interesting at level 1. I know in my current party, the Warlord loves using Direct the Strike on my Invoker, since Divine Bolts qualifies as an RBA for him . . . and I've stacked enough effects on Divine Bolts that it can definitely hinder someone's day. And it hits two people. That said, at level 1, the best I could get out of that would probably be just the feat making it an RBA, without all the goodness stacked on top. Still hits two targets, but that's nothing overwhelming.

I forget, do Warlords get any low-level ways to grant saving throws? Sounds like your GM is fond of "save ends" effects, so those might be worth looking into. I'm pretty sure they don't get any at-will ones, but . . .

[Nu]

It's not that I don't like them, it's just that I have Direct the Strike and don't really see a reason to double up on them. The only party member I know anything about is probably going to be a Rogue, so his MBA is probably going to be 1d6+mod and he's probably already snuck attacked by the time my initiative is up. If I have to be adjacent to an enemy that he's attacking, I'd rather give him bonus damage and accuracy on his next Sneak Attack than let him poke again for the same damage I'd do. In other party concerns, well, Controllers don't usually do the whole MBA thing (and those that would, I cannot imagine anyone in my party taking up), and Defenders are either Fighters or need to go out of their way to make their MBAs bite.

Well, take for example Vengeance is Mine. It's an out of turn attack that has a fairly reliable trigger (you being hit), and grants yourself AND your ally a basic attack. You ally doesn't even have to be adjacent either, because it grants the ally free movement too. For a level 1 encounter power, that's a very good power in my book.

Lamb to the Slaughter is a level 1 daily that's also nice, but much more party-dependent. I think you'd be right to hesitate to take that into an unknown group. Still, if you did know you'd have at least two melee characters who could charge (especially if you had charge-happy characters like Slayers or Barbarians), a reliable power with a large amount of forced movement and granting several allies the opportunity to charge can result in a lot of damage being done quickly.

Also, as the previous poster pointed out, Sneak Attack is now 1/turn, not 1/round. It's in Heroes of the Fallen Lands and in the errata document.

[Mando Knight]

and Defenders are either Fighters or need to go out of their way to make their MBAs bite.

Strength Paladins and Wardens also have capable MBAs, as do most Assault Swordmages (not that you see too many of those, what with their bad rep... though they can teleport-spam like no-one's business and with the right feat selection can be downright terrifying).

[Silver Coin]

You should get saving thrown to catch yourself if you are falling into a pit or off a ledge, but not if you are pushed into stuff like thorns. That's my understanding. (See PHB 284, falling).

At any rate, a warlord is suppose to be enabling (Buffing allies, granting attacks etc). You might want to consider that. One of the nice things about playing a warlord like that is that it generally improves group dynamics. Since your allies are rolling the attacks, they'll probably be happier for it. Besides, your fighter/striker would probably do better with an MBA anyway (For marking or for damage). (You might want to consider Lamb to the Slaughter for something like that, it's pretty good since it's weapon vs will and pretty much kills the artillery early on. But if you think you need to be defensive, that's fine as well.)

All in all, the biggest problem I see is how your group doesn't seem to know what to do, like how to protect weakened characters. I know the cleric has a debuff and is drawing fire, but I really don't think that's how thinks should have turned out. (I suppose it's the "walking into" bit). You might want to convince the rest of the party to improve on tactics a little and get to know their roles better. If your controlled is pushing stuff around but this results in the defender not being able to do his job, that action would have been better spent elsewhere. Not sure if that's been solved since I just skimmed the thread.

Anyway, that's another thing warlords are good at. See for example wolfpack tactics. It grants a shift which might have been useful in saving that cleric. Still, you probably won't want to take it since warlords have plenty of good At-wills. I bring it up just to make the point. All in all, warlord is a good choice for a leader. Be careful not to fall into the trap of becoming a heal bot. I suppose that's something you already know but sometimes, parties tend to keep asking for more heal when they run out of HP, rather than find ways to reduce damage. A dead enemy deals no damage. You have 3 actions a turn. Your standard could do better than just a laser and some minor heal.

--

On another note, if you are looking at a defender, I would personally recommend a fighter, due to mass marking ability and good punishing ability. Like the previous posters said, fighters don't need to hit to mark. You can punish no matter what they do (other than hitting you), regardless whether or not they shift. Even if they choose to shift, they take a hit and eat a -2, which is pretty significant. They also tend to pack plenty of punch due to Weapon Talent and the general orientation and good scores in strength and wisdom as well as a shield would give excellent defences all round. Still, as can be seen from the other posters, this is very much a matter of taste. Pick a defender that you like and learn to play it well. All the defenders are fully equipped to do their job if played well (and built well).

I suppose this is a bit redundant, but for completeness sake:

Initiative is important for making. Take a feat if needed.
You need to mark, so don't be afraid of taking burst attacks. Appreciate extra attacks granted by allies since they let you mark one mroe target
Have your party support you. A heal on you is probably worth more than a heal on someone else.
Don't tank everything. Mark the people who target AC, and ask the rest of your party to take out the ones that target your weaker NADs quickly.

[OracleofWuffing]

Sneak Attack got an Errata buff.
Okay, yeah, that might change things a little bit. I wanna place a bet that my DM doesn't have that errata applied to the book yet, any takers? :smalltongue: I'll... Be sure to "accidentally" drop a copy of the errata in front of that player before the game. That's coincidentally highlighted. With arrows.


I forget, do Warlords get any low-level ways to grant saving throws? Sounds like your GM is fond of "save ends" effects, so those might be worth looking into. I'm pretty sure they don't get any at-will ones, but . . .
Well, it's not the GM's fault if Wizards is picking out monsters with save-ends, but semantics aside... Looks like the easiest I have here is Shake It Off, Level 2 Encounter Utility for a saving throw+3. It'd be a swap for Inspired Belligerence, which is everyone receiving extra damage and combat advantage against an enemy already granting combat advantage to someone.

:smallyuk: Tough choice. My problem is that I'd think anything that throws about a save ends would end up throwing that out more than once, or once upon multiple allies.


Well, take for example Vengeance is Mine. It's an out of turn attack that has a fairly reliable trigger (you being hit),
See, that's a huge turn-off for me. I might be the only character in the group that can heal, I have two heals per encounter, and I don't need to be up against my enemies to be effective... I don't really feel like I should rely on getting hit for my most frequent big attack. It's an interesting idea (and several other Warlord powers like it), but in the presence of people who walk up to a thief guild's leader and stab him or makes it blatantly easy to get flanked by enemies while having -2 to defenses, it's not something I want to rely on. On which I want to rely, I mean.


Lamb to the Slaughter

Lamb to the Slaughter
Hm... My thought process with the daily there was to have some sort of defense to make up for not having the ability slash desire to want to hand out heals on everything, but I keep trying to envision how this'll work, because it's an awesome concept, but the execution..
Say there's a guy flanked by the defender and the rogue. I pull him 5 and give my two allies a charge (the other person's inevitably going to do an unarmed charge, but let's ignore that for now)... Since charge movement always needs to be closer to the target... Didn't I just rob CA from my rogue in doing all that?


You might want to convince the rest of the party to improve on tactics a little and get to know their roles better. If your controlled is pushing stuff around but this results in the defender not being able to do his job, that action would have been better spent elsewhere. Not sure if that's been solved since I just skimmed the thread.
Actually, yeah, I think that really describes the source of the issue here. However, "Play smarter everyone," is always a difficult thing to word in a way that still encourages people to have fun.:smallfrown:

[Silver Coin]

I've always see Lamb to the Slaughter as a combat opener. Use it on an artillery and pull it through some hazardous terrain, then proceed to beat down. A dead enemy deals no damage, so it make the whole encounter less heal intensive, especially since the artillery is usually the ones with the bursts and attacks that target NADs.

As for the saving throws, I think you'll need it. If you can get an extra action or two out of it (dazed, stunned, immobilised etc), that's more damage that whatever bonus you might have. Action denial has always been the biggest loss of damage for my party so I guess that's something to think about.

[Hidden Sanity]

Indeed, LttS is best used as a 'hello, you're next' for either opening up combat or selecting the new target from among those trying to avoid melee.

[OracleofWuffing]

:smallfrown: Yeah, I think I'll just say that this'll be my last Encounters season.

There wasn't a game because half the team had family obligations, however, I showed my DM the sneak attack errata, because Sneak Attack being once per round came up. His ruling is that since the errata states "...that enemy takes extra damage based on your level," this text overrides the table in the original book, and that a level 2 rogue would deal exactly 2 more damage with Sneak Attack. So, yeah, rogues are now worthless because of the errata that lets them Sneak Attack once per turn instead of per round.

The rogue player wasn't there today, so I don't know if he'll be playing rogue next week, but the DM said he was also thinking Monk. DM said that we play by rules as they are written, so that's why sneak attack is worthless now. (Yes, same guy who says "They are plants" to a natural 20 monster knowledge check. He said that rule didn't need to be written down.)

Anyhow, he also told the other guy that showed up to play a leader, because "Warlords are controllers, they have no healing powers," and the player decided that he'd just let me build the character. It's gotta be a Dwarf Runepriest with a heavy thrown weapon, and in splint mail because splint mail ticks the DM off (player's request, not mine), but I otherwise have free reign over the character.

I hope to see some interesting contrasts between this and the online Encounters I'll be DMing later today, I expect to have a campaign journal up sometime.

Venting
I'm really just ticked off that he throws a hissy fit over specifically following the rules but only when it's in his favor. We can't have powers written down or abbreviated on our sheets, we have to have the full text with us at all times, but whenever we ask about a rule- such as saving throw for being pushed off a ledge- it's always what works worst against us. I think this was just lampshaded today because, since I went over Splint Mail today with him, he got all upset about how overpowered it was and that there can't be anything worthwhile in MME. The following was then said:
"You know what else is in the Emporium?"
"Nothing, because it doesn't exi-"
"Cursed items."
"Oh! Okay! That book's awesome now!"
"You can make an arcana check to make them act like regular items."
"**** that."

I mean, overall, I really just don't like this whole thing where I have to go over my character with a fine-toothed comb, get ridiculed by my DM because I'm not playing to his favorite archetypes, and then he just goes about on how much he doesn't like the game, doesn't do his research on his own characters, skips entire skill checks to reveal to the players any sort of story progression, and then scolds us for ignoring the story and not roleplaying. Ugh.

[Mando Knight]

I would tell him to say hello to my little friend. Except that would still be wrong. Even if being a moron was a capital offense.

I think the other half of the group had "family obligations" rather than family obligations, if you catch my drift. The DM's gonna strangle himself with his own red tape sooner or later.

[Zaq]

Call the other players. Start a new game. This guy's started out as a problem and is only getting worse as you talk to him. He's not necessary to the game, though. You can try DMing, or get someone else to, or do what my group does and have a round-robin thing where everyone takes turns DMing (passing off every 3-5 sessions, on average).

You obviously enjoy the game. Don't let one jerk ruin it for you.

[Nu]

Perhaps you should explain to him that "deals extra damage based on your level" doesn't mean "deals extra damage equal to your level." That's why there's a table. The errata did not replace the table.

But I think your "DM" should clearly not be a DM at all. I hate to believe that people that stupid really exist, but apparently they do.

[surfarcher]

Call the other players. Start a new game. This guy's started out as a problem and is only getting worse as you talk to him. He's not necessary to the game, though. You can try DMing, or get someone else to, or do what my group does and have a round-robin thing where everyone takes turns DMing (passing off every 3-5 sessions, on average).

You obviously enjoy the game. Don't let one jerk ruin it for you.

This. Sort of.

You guys need to discuss the problems you have with this DM, then clearly inform him of these issues in as... politic... terms as you can manage. And if he can't or won't change then say "thank you and goodbye". Start another game.

[Zaq]

Oracle's been bringing up his various concerns to this guy for the past few weeks. If anything, it's gotten worse, not better.

It's always best to talk to a problem player or problem GM first, but that's already happened here.

[surfarcher]

Oracle's been bringing up his various concerns to this guy for the past few weeks. If anything, it's gotten worse, not better.

It's always best to talk to a problem player or problem GM first, but that's already happened here.

Sorry, I missed the bit where the player's had gotten together without the DM, talked it through, then met with him and presented their position - as group of people with a common concern.

If they've already done that and he's intractable... Well then it's time for the group to move on without him.

[OracleofWuffing]

I... Don't think it's a group consensus? I've never asked, but I think I'm the only one feeling this way about things, at least for longer than an hour. One of the players is apparently the DM's roommate, and the others play Magic: The Gathering with him.

The reason why he DMs 4e, and at least part of the reason why the rest of the group plays 4e, is that Encounters is free, premade modules, so there's barely any preparation work you need to spend outside of the game. No work, quick story, get a critical hit or two, get out of the house, get talk to people about things, and roll dice. Encounters is kind-of restricted to being store-sponsored only, though, so even if I wanted to make my own group with blackjack and hookers, I wouldn't get new free stuff.
I mean, not that that's a problem, I'm certain the additional depth, play beyond level 3, and original story/monsters would be more than worth the time investment, just that I work a job that doesn't have a consistent schedule, so no guarantee that I'll be able to put in the effort that I want to, and the players are unlikely to want to put in effort outside of the table. (I am also very afraid- admittedly in an intrigued way- at the kind of encounters someone who walks into a flank with an AC buff would design :smalleek:)

That said, I suppose this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=219671) is the next best thing. In the meanwhile, though, I suppose I should look at the Runepriest and see what to do there, even if I decide not to show up, I should at least make the character like I said I would.

[surfarcher]

Ah ok. I had actually started to post about possible social constraints and then went back to delete that part :D

Sounds like the guy has taken his social circle and annexed some D&D Encounters with them. That's kinda the suckage. Given that I'd say yeah it's time to find an alternative.

One of our players went overseas for a few months so we know what having a remote player is like. It's OK but I'm not eager to repeat the experience - technical difficulties every session seem to be the norm :( For my money a physical game always beats a virtual one but beggars cant always be choosers.

What's the game store/college environment like in your area? We found half our players through websites :D

[OracleofWuffing]

Sorry I didn't reply earlier- the board had a hiccup and didn't tell me there was a new post. :smallredface:

Anyhow, another spanner in the works at the local games. After doing some looking, these modules are written for a five-person party. We have a four-person party. There are instructions for adjusting encounters for a smaller party, but they are not being followed... And the only way I can call the DM out on this is to pretty much say "I READ THE PREWRITTEN CAMPAIGN, ISN'T THAT AWESOME," which I'd probably only want to do on the day I decide not to come anymore.


What's the game store/college environment like in your area? We found half our players through websites :D
We had a dedicated gaming store, once, about eight years ago. It went bankrupt, so the store I'm playing at now is mostly a gag gifts/beanie babies/incense sticks/blacklight posters/sexual aids/costume store (It's shaped like a castle (http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/3967/picture3pp.png)). There's a community college, however, it is all the way on the other side of town and not generally regarded in high standing for social activities. The only other "in" I can think of is a guy who may or may not have been the reason why I was laid off of my previous job, which is a whole other book of drama in and of itself and further discussion gets legal.

In other news, Runepriest is done. I figured I'd switch both of our backgrounds to Auspicious Birth, and I'm just going to talk the player out of Splint Mail, he's much better without the feat. I'm getting him the Feat that adds a saving throw to his Rune of Mending, then switching my own Utility for the one that lets me give someone surge5+cha temp hp per encounter (seeing as how Sneak Attack might not be as big of a deal anymore). Probably just see this campaign come to a close, then think about things again, maybe ask around if I'm the guy ruining the fun or not.

[surfarcher]

Would DMing the next campaign be an option for you?

It's not for everyone but it sounds like you'd do a better job than the current DM.

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, your source on that is heavily biased...:smalltongue:

It's something that I had thought about, I mean, "Well, it's kind of obvious that you don't really like running 4e, maybe I could run the next game?" But I have, like, no idea how happy the store sponsoring it would be about that, considering I don't work for them, they're not hiring, and this is all supposed to be kind of official business.

[surfarcher]

I didn't realise that Encounters and such required a paid employee to be DMing. A friend of mine runs my local gamestore. I offered to DM Encounters for them and he said definately... Next time they run it. LOL. So next year I'm supposed to be in spot #1 for DMing encounters!

[OracleofWuffing]

I don't know if WotC explicitly requires a paid employee in that wording, just that they require the store to provide their own DM, so it usually is an existing employee out of convenience for bookwork and knowing who's in the store and why.

That said, I don't imagine the "punishment" for bending any rules is that severe to begin with- Wizards does this to get people interested in buying their products, and stores do it so people buy stuff at the stores- it's almost in everyone's best interests to keep folks playing.

[MeeposFire]

I didn't realise that Encounters and such required a paid employee to be DMing. A friend of mine runs my local gamestore. I offered to DM Encounters for them and he said definately... Next time they run it. LOL. So next year I'm supposed to be in spot #1 for DMing encounters!

Lol I can vouch that at my local store it is not a paid employee doing the DMing...

[OracleofWuffing]

So, yeah, I couldn't even ask my group any questions because there wasn't a session today because the DM's car wouldn't start.

I feel a strange sense of :smallamused: and :smallfrown: right now.

[OracleofWuffing]

Well, it looks like Encounters are being called off indefinitely, sounds like two of the other players are going through rehab or something, I just got the call in now.

Regardless, I do want to send out a last "Thank you" for all the support I've gotten in the thread.

[bobbofeet]

Oracle - I'd suggest you ask the store if you can run encounters for a while? See if there can be a group built up and make it work. You should be able to advertise at the local CC (even though it is on the other side of town) - something on a centralized bulletin board might work - it would even be free marketing for the store where you guys play.

You have the passion to make the game fly and I know for a fact that Encounters does not have to have a store employee run the game (I've got a buddy that owns a game store and he doesn't play D&D or have anything to do with it, but they have a weekly encounters session that often has 8-10 people show up, with someone else running it all). I can contact him if you'd like to see what the store's requirements are from WOTC to run Encounters.

Good luck!

[bobbofeet]

Double post

[surfarcher]

Oracle - I'd suggest you ask the store if you can run encounters for a while? See if there can be a group built up and make it work. You should be able to advertise at the local CC (even though it is on the other side of town) - something on a centralized bulletin board might work - it would even be free marketing for the store where you guys play.

You have the passion to make the game fly and I know for a fact that Encounters does not have to have a store employee run the game (I've got a buddy that owns a game store and he doesn't play D&D or have anything to do with it, but they have a weekly encounters session that often has 8-10 people show up, with someone else running it all). I can contact him if you'd like to see what the store's requirements are from WOTC to run Encounters.

Good luck!

Seconded... And good luck regardless of what avenue you choose to pursue.