Group Fighting?

[shadow_archmagi]

Does anyone recall a thread where someone had set up a group that fought extremely well as a unit? It had some kind of deal where like, five kobolds would pile into one square and then use feats and maneuvers and stances to tear the crap out of anything that came near.

It looked like a really nifty little Ginyu Force style encounter.

[herrhauptmann]

No I haven't seen that, but I'd be interested in hearing about it. Assuming that it's not Tuckers Kobold Adventuring party.
I'm guessing they all took slight build. And had a variety of teamwork feats, as well as feats that gave bonuses against bigger creatures. I'll start searching for the feat combos later (if Personman hasn't already compiled it in a list)


What I have seen, was a bunch of parties all intended for a similar purpose.
Such as a skirmisher party. Not superoptimized, but designed to keep moving through the fight, preventing the enemy from getting full attacks.
Cast on the run, shot on the run, leap attack andbounding assault, etc. And the party did consist of the 4 types, or their analogs. Warrior, Arcane Caster, Divine Caster, Rogue (actually a scout, but skirmish worked better for the theme)

[shadow_archmagi]

Hilariously, my little Team of Battle successfully routed the party. The teams:

Dread Necromancer 6
Dragonfire Adept 7
Wizard (Enchanter) 7
Binder 7

vs a group of 4 level 4 Warblades lead by a level 5 Crusader/Bard/Marshal carrying a Hobgoblin Banner (Cromagh's Guide to Goblins).

The party barely escaped, with the wizard and adept at 3 and -9 HP, and the binder at half HP

[Saintheart]

Obligatory mention of this lovely handbook on the subject. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4963.0)

[NecroRick]

Hilariously, my little Team of Battle successfully routed the party. The teams:

Dread Necromancer 6
Dragonfire Adept 7
Wizard (Enchanter) 7
Binder 7

vs a group of 4 level 4 Warblades lead by a level 5 Crusader/Bard/Marshal carrying a Hobgoblin Banner (Cromagh's Guide to Goblins).

The party barely escaped, with the wizard and adept at 3 and -9 HP, and the binder at half HP

... once again proving that the holy doctrine of tiers is fine in theory, but in practice is a complete load of cobblers ...

[mint]

I think you might be looking for swarmfighting from CW.
Share square with other small creatures with the feat at no penalty. Provides a bonus to hit based on the number of small creatures you share the square with.

[shadow_archmagi]

I think you might be looking for swarmfighting from CW.
Share square with other small creatures with the feat at no penalty. Provides a bonus to hit based on the number of small creatures you share the square with.

Maybe that's the feat it was based off of, but I remember there being a thread that fully explored the possibility.

Also, the Phalanx Handbook...

By the Nine Divines, what have you done!? Now I have to choose between NOT USING IT, and simply NEVER LETTING MY PLAYERS WIN

[Elric VIII]

... once again proving that the holy doctrine of tiers is fine in theory, but in practice is a complete load of cobblers ...

Tier list is a measure of potential, not individual performance, at equivalent optimization levels. Without knowing builds your statement means nothing.


I think you might be looking for swarmfighting from CW.
Share square with other small creatures with the feat at no penalty. Provides a bonus to hit based on the number of small creatures you share the square with.

Would Confound the Big Folk mesh well with Swarm Fighting? I mean, you are already a bunch of small dudes.

[Silva Stormrage]

... once again proving that the holy doctrine of tiers is fine in theory, but in practice is a complete load of cobblers ...

Wait sorry to derail the topic but what? The story has
Dread Necro: Tier 3
Binder: Tier 3
Wizard: Tier 1 (One of if not worst specialization)
Dragon Fire Adept (Tier 4)

Vs 5 Tier 3's

How does that prove the tier system one way or the other?

[TroubleBrewing]

Actually, that would prove the Tier system sound. The party averages out to high Tier 3, and they handled the encounter.

[Silva Stormrage]

Actually, that would prove the Tier system sound. The party averages out to high Tier 3, and they handled the encounter.

I know I was just trying to stay neutral.

[TroubleBrewing]

I know I was just trying to stay neutral.

Well, sure. But why bother staying neutral when there's a right answer and a wrong answer? You had the right of it.

[Feytalist]

Well, against that group, if the enchanter had done his job properly, the odds would have looked slightly different.

Of course, since I don't know how the actual fight went, I can't really comment on it. I'm assuming all the warblades used moment of perfect mind.

[deuxhero]

Actually, that would prove the Tier system sound. The party averages out to high Tier 3, and they handled the encounter.

Or at least that people don't understand that the tier system rates on versatility over power, not being meant stictly for comparing fighting ability, and the opponents were high power while the PCs were high versatility (plus the foes were built for synergy).

[shadow_archmagi]

Well, against that group, if the enchanter had done his job properly, the odds would have looked slightly different.

Of course, since I don't know how the actual fight went, I can't really comment on it. I'm assuming all the warblades used moment of perfect mind.

TURN ORDER:

Binder
Wizard
Captain
Dragon
Dread Necro
Mook
Mook
Mook
Mook

Binder opens with some kind of Acid Spit, rolls a 2. Miss.
Wizard opens with Hold Person on the captain; Captain makes his save.
Captain opens with Dragonfire Inspiration.
Dragonfire Adept opens with Slowing Entangling Breath. All but one save.
Clericial error; we forget the enemies are, in fact, slowed.
Mooks 1&2 attack the Binder with Sapphire Nightmare Blade, dealing 1d8+3d6+7 damage each for a total around 30.
Mooks 3&4 do the same to the Dragonfire Adept, but with crits.
Dread Necro realizes we skipped his turn, declares the fight unwinnable, casts Darkness to help escape.
Binder 5-foot steps away and uses Invisibility
Wizard thinks the fight is still winnable and casts Mass Whelm, dealing 20 dmg (all saves failed)
Captain bull rushes the Dragonfire Adept using Charging Minotaur, dealing 2d6 damage and causing him to provoke AoO's from mooks 3&4. He winds up at -8 hp.
Dread Necro uses Swift Fly to swoop over and grab the injured Dragon and fly out the window.
Mook 4 stabs the wizard, knocking him down to 3 HP. The rest surround him, because I have a sense of mercy and want to give him one shot at getting out of this.
Wizard passes his Cast Defensively and hits the Captain with Suggestion: "Well, now that the fight is over, you had better leave and file a report right away, before taking prisoners! I'll be here when you get back!"
Captain fails his save.

[TroubleBrewing]

Okay, so this had nothing to do with the Tier system, and everything to do with some unfortunate clerical errors, untimely criticals, and the Dread Necro being a bloody coward.

[shadow_archmagi]

Okay, so this had nothing to do with the Tier system, and everything to do with some unfortunate clerical errors, untimely criticals, and the Dread Necro being a bloody coward.

Yeah. Dread Necro did not make very good use of his resources and Binder was totally unprepared for a fight. In addition, I made a bad call, and thought that you could use maneuvers on attacks of opportunity. Plus the rolls were HEAVILY slanted in my favor. (I think I got like, four or five crits that fight)

[Feytalist]

Wow. I... Just... wow.

Yeah, unfortunate playing from the players there. I do like that last suggestion, though. Heh.

[NecroRick]

Actually, that would prove the Tier system sound. The party averages out to high Tier 3, and they handled the encounter.

{{scrubbed}}



Hilariously, my little Team of Battle successfully routed the party. The teams:


They didn't "handle the encounter", the encounter handled them.

Additionally, the Wizard only lived because of explicit DM mercy (yeah, you successfully made the leader want to leave, but any of the mooks can and should have finished him off (realistically speaking - of course, we use dramatic licence at this point to let the Wizard live, since the point of the game isn't to kill off the party, even though that is a more realistic result).

Moreover, it shows how borked the tier system is, because the caster heavy party got man-handled by a group of worse tier that was almost half their level.

{{scrubbed}}

[Greenish]

That you guys are actually flagging this as a success for the tier system shows just how blindly devoted you are to it, in a truly Orwellian 'black is white and white is black' way.Man, it's great to have such a brave rebel to show us the error in our ways.

[Elric VIII]

Moreover, it shows how borked the tier system is, because the caster heavy party got man-handled by a group of worse tier that was almost half their level.

Well, according to CR calculation, 4 Honbgoblins with 4 levels in a PC class and one with 5 levels in PC classes is roughly a CR10 encounter.


This isn't just a little "oopsie" on the part of the tier system, this is an enormous crushing failure, a glaring embarrassment. A George W Bush moment if ever there was one.

I would say all but 2 failed saves (out of 6-8 provoked), 4 crits, and one party member that missed a turn and contriubuted noting to the combat is a bit of an "oopsie."


That you guys are actually flagging this as a success for the tier system shows just how blindly devoted you are to it, in a truly Orwellian 'black is white and white is black' way.

Once again, the tier system is not an absolute measure, it's a relative measure. You can bet that a Dread Necro 6 with a full compliment of undead, a Wizard with Evards Black Tentacles and the Rapid Summoning ACF would have wiped the floor with this encounter. As it is, there is a relatively weak specialization of Wizard and a DN that did not do anything.

[Geigan]

I don't see how the tier system had anything to do with it. Clerical errors that leaned the fight in the enemies' favor, as well as a lack of cohesion in the group's tactical decision making made the loss. The relative power of the classes means nothing when they all run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

[Elric VIII]

I don't see how the tier system had anything to do with it. Clerical errors that leaned the fight in the enemies' favor, as well as a lack of cohesion in the group's tactical decision making made the loss. The relative power of the classes means nothing when they all run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

What are the implications of a Chicken-Infested Commoner is this scenario, then? :smallbiggrin:

[Prime32]

Does anyone recall a thread where someone had set up a group that fought extremely well as a unit? It had some kind of deal where like, five kobolds would pile into one square and then use feats and maneuvers and stances to tear the crap out of anything that came near.

It looked like a really nifty little Ginyu Force style encounter.I believe that's generally called a "Megazord" build. :smalltongue: I can find a thread that links to it (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869022/?pg=last), but it was eaten by Gleemax.

[Greenish]

Since we're at it:

Dragon Fire Adept (Tier 4)I feel DFA has a solid claim for t3. It benefits from being later in the design cycle than it's predecessor, the warlock.

[Zonugal]

Also, the Phalanx Handbook...

By the Nine Divines, what have you done!? Now I have to choose between NOT USING IT, and simply NEVER LETTING MY PLAYERS WIN

You are welcome, it was a delight to write (although it does need to be re-polished...).

[Geigan]

What are the implications of a Chicken-Infested Commoner is this scenario, then? :smallbiggrin:

Chicken infested OP:smalltongue:

[shadow_archmagi]

Additionally, the Wizard only lived because of explicit DM mercy (yeah, you successfully made the leader want to leave, but any of the mooks can and should have finished him off (realistically speaking - of course, we use dramatic licence at this point to let the Wizard live, since the point of the game isn't to kill off the party, even though that is a more realistic result).

This isn't just a little "oopsie" on the part of the tier system, this is an enormous crushing failure, a glaring embarrassment. A George W Bush moment if ever there was one.


Point: The group was, in both mechanics and fluff, based around the idea of working together as a single unit. If the leader moves, they all move. I mean, they'd already rammed a longsword through the elf, it would be entirely reasonable for them to figure their leader really was just going to let him sit there and bleed out.

Point Also: Please refrain from direct insults against posters or presidents, regardless of their actual intellect or indoctrinational status in subtle but powerful Orwellian cults.


Man, it's great to have such a brave rebel to show us the error in our ways.

Biting sarcasm only works if accompanied by FLAG PUNCH!


Well, according to CR calculation, 4 Honbgoblins with 4 levels in a PC class and one with 5 levels in PC classes is roughly a CR10 encounter.


You know, that chart was always so darn weird to me. Are you sure that's how it works? I'm not clear on how to chart out a four-and-one group like that. My math keeps coming out at 8. Anyway, as long as the CR is within 4 or 5, the fight's appropriate. The DMG actually suggests mixing it up a fair bit. (Actually, I'd chalk the encounter under "Easy if Handled Properly" since there were any number of ways to disrupt the group. Particularly the "Fractured Unity" spell, which a player had actually mentioned to me the day before.)

[Elric VIII]

You know, that chart was always so darn weird to me. Are you sure that's how it works? I'm not clear on how to chart out a four-and-one group like that. My math keeps coming out at 8. Anyway, as long as the CR is within 4 or 5, the fight's appropriate. The DMG actually suggests mixing it up a fair bit. (Actually, I'd chalk the encounter under "Easy if Handled Properly" since there were any number of ways to disrupt the group. Particularly the "Fractured Unity" spell, which a player had actually mentioned to me the day before.)

I used a bit of interpolation. Each Hobgoblin has a CR if 4 (4 PC class levels, replacing the 1 warrior level). The Leader has a CR of 5. 5-6 CR 4 enemies is a CR 9 encounter, according to the table (rounding the leader down).

I'm figuring the combined +1 CR of the leader with that of favorable terrain/environment (i.e. their swarm tactics) is enough to bump the CR up by 1. It would also be a bit higher if you did not subtract the default level of Warrior from the Hobgoblins before adding the class levels.

A CR +1-4 fight is "Very Diffcult." So barely winning would be the expected outcome. Please note, I did not mean that statement as an implication of bad DMing or encounter planning. I meant it to give some reference point for party performance.

[herrhauptmann]

You know, that chart was always so darn weird to me. Are you sure that's how it works? I'm not clear on how to chart out a four-and-one group like that. My math keeps coming out at 8. Anyway, as long as the CR is within 4 or 5, the fight's appropriate. The DMG actually suggests mixing it up a fair bit. (Actually, I'd chalk the encounter under "Easy if Handled Properly" since there were any number of ways to disrupt the group. Particularly the "Fractured Unity" spell, which a player had actually mentioned to me the day before.)

I always figured it as two CR X's is a CR X+1. And two CR (X+1)'s is a CR (X+2).
So by that basis, if the PCs were the enemy, they'd be about a CR 9.

Enemies: The four level 4 warblades would come out to about a CR 6. With their level 5 boss, about a CR 7. Then boost the CR a little because they're designed as a squad that works together, unlike a 'squad' of 4 orc warriors and an orc fighter sergeant where the only similarity is their race.

The PCs: Like you said, the Dread Necro got all huffy about his turn getting skipped. He could've just retconned his initiative roll to put him dead last, but instead he left. So the PCs were more of a high CR 7, with action economy working against them. (3 actions vs 5)
And the enemy had an annoying habit of making almost all of their saves with the party failing theirs being a deciding factor.

[Feytalist]

Since we're at it:I feel DFA has a solid claim for t3. It benefits from being later in the design cycle than it's predecessor, the warlock.

Just having been designed later doesn't necessarily mean it's automatically a better class. But I concede your point, the DFA is fairly versatile in its own right, and even more so with some smart feat choices.

Which brings me to another point: how would that fight have played out if the mooks had realised they were slowed? Down to a single action per round, and down on attack bonus. That hurts at that level. Even with some bad luck, the party should have a much better chance of surviving that fight.

[shadow_archmagi]

Which brings me to another point: how would that fight have played out if the mooks had realised they were slowed? Down to a single action per round, and down on attack bonus. That hurts at that level. Even with some bad luck, the party should have a much better chance of surviving that fight.

Slow Breath only lasts 1-2 rounds, so it's more likely that it wouldn't have ever gotten around to affecting a combat roll so much as just buying the PCs more time to hurl firepower at them, which would've made a big difference.

[Feytalist]

Fair enough. Still, It would have helped, regardless. Guess it pays to remember status effects :smallwink:

[Fouredged Sword]

I always use tokens to count down until effects end when I play tabletop. Works better that way.

[Greenish]

Just having been designed later doesn't necessarily mean it's automatically a better class.I didn't mean to imply that, I'm just pointing out that between solid chassis, good skill list, breath effects separate from invocations and slightly upgraded invocation list, it's obvious the designers had a better grasp of how useful at will abilities are when they designed DFA, having learned from warlock.