Ideas for evil, screw-the-party character

[Tybot]

Haven't played 3.5 in a while, but a friend of mine is looking to bring some friends into playing for the first time with a lvl 3 adventure. I'm being brought in as an experienced player to help out the newbies, but I also have a secret objective that the DM has signed off on. I'm here to screw the party over.

I want to be sneaky, underhanded, and not reveal my hand until the right moment. I want to play nicey nice until I can turn the tables on everyone else and make out with the goods. Rouge is an easy choice, but I'm out to backstab them more figuratively than literally. I was interested to see what creative builds people have had fun with in the past. Lvl 3 isn't much to work with but there's the good chance this could go on for a while so I want to I want to give it some thought. After all, it's not often you get a chance like this.

So what character build have you gotten the most devious pleasure out of?

[Talonblaze]

My personal character was a Warmage RDD. Not the best, but enough to be problematic. High in charisma and intelligence with moderate strength.

He usually liked to twist other people against the party secretively, making enemies for the party they thought were random, but ones he created. Ruining their reputation as quickly as they tried to earn it. And then covering his trail by allowing the blame to fall upon the others, be it the other pc's or characters. Keeping him constantly out of the fire.

He was more 'roleplay' strong than he was stats strong, which probably made him more effective than its suggested.

[AMFV]

Don't. Ruining other people's fun isn't fun for them, and that will make them want to make the game not fun for you. Having a character that works with the party is a player responsibility.

[WitchSlayer]

Don't. Ruining other people's fun isn't fun for them, and that will make them want to make the game not fun for you. Having a character that works with the party is a player responsibility.

Listen to this guy.

[Thiyr]

I had a character that...could very easily have done this at some point, and probably not surprised anyone with it. Granted, third level isn't easy, but it has its upsides. Almost entirely straight warlock. Spend all your time invisible (even sleeping), all your time flying (even sleeping), pick up the level in mindbender and speak via telepathy more often than not, take Mindsight (Lords of Madness) if possible, make liberal use of the charm invocation, pick up flee the scene if you get that high. high cha, and ranks in disguise at low levels to never let them see your true face. when they sleep, steal all their stuff, break what you can't take with baleful utterance, and sell them out to their enemies. or, if you're high enough, drop a chilling tentacles or five on their feet and surrounding area as they sleep, watch them get horribly stuck, and then pick them off at your leisure.

before you turn, you'll be useful in almost any situation, through UMD, mobility, difficulty in detection, alternate vision, battlefield control, non-magical-stuff breaking, and social capability. After you turn, you're all the above, and you know all their tricks. Never give them reason to suspect you're going to work against them until it's already happened, you now own all of their notable magic items, they're stuck in place, and if you -really, really- want to, you can force them to be your friend again by just spamming the everliving bajeezus out of Charm.

edit: also, on the subject of the last two posts(doubleedit: and following post), it is perfectly fine to work against the party so long as it isn't random, and is done in a way that doesn't hinder gameplay. If it is, like the OP seemed to me, a plot-point in which he becomes a villain to overcome instead of just a jerk who doesn't want to play nice, then it's honestly -not that bad-. If it's a random "ha HA now imma kill you so I can have a jolly good time", then it's not really that good. But if it's a subtle subversion that comes to a dramatic reveal, perhaps at the end of the campaign after the big bad has been finished, at which point you reveal yourself as the man behind the curtains of it all? That's far better, especially if you insert yourself as the "leader" or the one to ultimately "destroy the evil macguffin/seal the eldritch doom/sacrifice yourself to win the day". Plus, it gives a good time for a good villain-monologue, and who doesn't love those?

talk to your DM, see what he'll work with, and if possible, see if he'll let you know what you'll be setting up, but keep yourself in the dark just enough that you're still threatened, as a means to make yourself credible while always having the right tool on hand to be indispensable.

[Jopustopin]

Don't. Ruining other people's fun isn't fun for them, and that will make them want to make the game not fun for you. Having a character that works with the party is a player responsibility.

Seriously. +9000

[Zerter]

Play a level 3 commonor with 10/10/10/10/10 stats with a Scythe and coup-de-grace them in their sleeps after volunteering to stand gaurd.

Screwing over your party is easy and messing with newbies is even easier. There's no real challenge or fun in it, but what the hell!

[faceroll]

Don't. Ruining other people's fun isn't fun for them, and that will make them want to make the game not fun for you. Having a character that works with the party is a player responsibility.

Who said anything about ruining fun? It sounds more like he's going to be playing the typical NPC-that-turns-on-the-party.

[Coidzor]

Neutral Evil Ninja Assassin Drow. (http://www.rpg.net/columns/building/building16.phtml)

Bonus points if you can work the acronym into your name without the rest of the group catching on.


Who said anything about ruining fun? It sounds more like he's going to be playing the typical NPC-that-turns-on-the-party.

If it's played well.

If they're actually all that new it runs a rather high risk of alienating the rest of the group into deciding that "Wow, these guys are ****** with no sense of timing or humor in their practical jokes and this game is trolls," if special care to pull it off well isn't taken. And the audience hadn't been previously gauged properly.

[Jopustopin]

You know I actually read it as "the dm has not signed off on" which is not what you said; my bad. SO I take back my +9000.

You can do and play any type of character as a Changeling Factotum (Dungeonscape). That's my recommendation.

[Coidzor]

You know I actually read it as "the dm has not signed off on" SO I take back my +9000.

:smalltongue: If it's a bad idea, it's a bad idea regardless of whether the DM thinks it's one.

Can't really tell with this little information anyway though.

[faceroll]

Can't really tell with this little information anyway though.

What's it matter? OP didn't ask for you to judge him.

[Thiyr]

:smalltongue: If it's a bad idea, it's a bad idea regardless of whether the DM thinks it's one.

Can't really tell with this little information anyway though.

The thing is, if it's a bad idea because it's random and disruptive (the reason it ruins fun when done poorly), then the DM working with you on it is one way to make it less random and disruptive by giving it better timing, making it no longer as bad of an idea :P

As far as playing it well, I'd like to think I gave a good suggestion for that end of things. I also liked Talon's idea as well, for a less plot-intensive/disruptive way

[Coidzor]

The thing is, if it's a bad idea because it's random and disruptive (the reason it ruins fun when done poorly)

And if it's a bad idea because it's mean-spirited, pulled off poorly, and a bad introduction to D&D?


then the DM working with you on it is one way to make it less random and disruptive by giving it better timing, making it no longer as bad of an idea

Sure, it's a possibility, one which I already accounted for.


What's it matter? OP didn't ask for you to judge him.

Because I was making a statement of fact, faceroll, of course. :smallwink: Considering the person I was responding to had already judged him previously and then quickly back-pedaled, I was pointing out that if they had such grounds for taking exception in the first place, those would not have evaporated simply because the DM was in on it.

As DMs have a long and illustrious history of being in on some spectacularly bad and mean spirited ideas.

I believe that sums it up.

And since when has urging caution equaled "judging" anyway?

Then again, putting one's thoughts up in a public place and asking for feedback is always going to implicitly ask for some kind of judgment to be used in relation to them anyway, so the point is kinda moot.

[AMFV]

Thing is that even with DM approval it creates an unfair playing field. Most of the characters are working towards an objective together in a collaborative way. While you are working against them, it's like the star player being paid to throw the game. The DM is not the one who is going to feel betrayed over this (as he was aware from the start) but the other players likely will.
It is really your decision, but I would VERY strongly advise against that course of action, especially with new players in the mix, interparty conflict is something that even experienced groups of close friends have difficulty managing, new parties in most cases simply cannot handle this.
Also a good portion of the point in D&D is to work together, to accomplish common goals, if you are working against that, then you are removing some of the fun from you as well, and the fun you are getting is at others' expense, a bad idea in my opinion.

[Thiyr]

And if it's a bad idea because it's mean-spirited, pulled off poorly, and a bad introduction to D&D?


From what I gather, again, this doesn't seem to be mean-spirited, i accounted for it being done poorly (which to be honest is a reasonable reason to never do anything ever), and it's not really a bad intro to d&d if done well. It's entirely dependent on how it's done.



Sure, it's a possibility, one which I already accounted for.


Then I apologize, though I'm still not seeing it. I'm just seeing you say that it runs a high risk of being disruptive, and that if its a bad idea, the DM's involvement doesn't matter. That doesn't so much seem accounted for as much as it seems like you made a post and i responded. That said, I've been known to miss obvious stuff, so if you could quote what you mean, that'd be quite awesome.

I'm not trying to say there isn't risk, of course, but I don't particularly agree that it's quite as high as you make it out to be, presuming it is done right. Ultimately, while the thread asked for builds, there really isn't a mechanic for "turn on your allies and get away", so I'm mostly seeing it as a decent place to give him advice on how to actually do it right and make it fun for all involved, and why I think that it's...almost counterproductive to the growth of new players to just say "it'll ruin it for them don't do it". I'm not big on making players suffer too much (because let's face it, people like being able to do stuff), but if you coddle them (and let it be stated that I hate having to use that word, and I'm not saying you're suggesting that), it breeds entitlement, which can be just as bad. This is a case where I think the possibility of being turned on can be a very good experience, both to hammer home what one can do in RP, and to experience that your character's motives for being with the party can actually matter to someone outside of themselves without it being constantly out there.

heck, the link you posted, having read it and the 7 rules the guy posted, made me consider why I so highly disagree with his third point. In a nutshell, the problem isn't being good or evil, the problem is having a reason to play along. That's why I suggested doing the "man behind the curtains" route. Up until the end, you have every reason to make sure the party succeeds and in fact thrives. You have every reason to feed them power if possible, make them succeed. And I practically guarantee that the final encounter against a key member of the party will be a memorable one, and if played out with an eye for being hard but surmountable instead of unbeatable, it will be a fond memory instead of a "man that guy was a ****" one.

[WitchSlayer]

Just sayin'. They're newbies. If anything this will drive them off from the hobby.

[bassmasterginga]

i've DMed over a couple of games where this scenario has gone down (pre-approved, of course) it always seemed to make everyone more excited. Maybe your group is different then mine but i give the whole thing positive ratings. Just make sure to fail when it comes to killing them, otherwise I could see it getting detractive rather quickly.

[Kaeso]

Do you want to play a screw-the-party character?
Okay, here we go:
1. Play a spellthief
2. Be of Chaotic Evil to the point of Chaotic Stupid
3. Make sure your party is heavy on casters
4. Refuse to help the party in even the slightest of efforts unless it specifically benefits you (ex.: "What's that dear Duskblade? That monster impaled your colon and you desperately need a healing potion, of which I have more than enough? My, that's an impressive belt of giants strength, I'm sure you'd be willing to part with it to save your life, right?")
5. If your party finds a way to convince you to help, steal the spells from your caster friends and use them to only your benefit instead of that from the entire party. (ex.: Father Healson McHealbot, the party cleric, is about to convert one of his less important spell into a cure critical wounds to save the life of the Duskblade, who got his colon impaled for the 100th time in an attempt to save your ungrateful arse. However, just as Healson is about to close in on him, you tap him on the shoulder and steal his cure critical wounds to heal your own insignificant 7 hp you suffered from a stray arrow). Bonus points if you happen to steal a persisted divine power spell from a cleric.
6. ????
7. The DM throws a DMG at your face
8. You're hospitalised for a day or two
9. ????
10. PROFIT

Bonus points if your Chaotic Stupid spellthief is a stereotypical slutty bisexual elf princess with more wardrobe malfunctions than plotholes in Twillight.

[TheJake]

Haven't played 3.5 in a while, but a friend of mine is looking to bring some friends into playing for the first time with a lvl 3 adventure. I'm being brought in as an experienced player to help out the newbies, but I also have a secret objective that the DM has signed off on. I'm here to screw the party over.

I want to be sneaky, underhanded, and not reveal my hand until the right moment. I want to play nicey nice until I can turn the tables on everyone else and make out with the goods. Rouge is an easy choice, but I'm out to backstab them more figuratively than literally. I was interested to see what creative builds people have had fun with in the past. Lvl 3 isn't much to work with but there's the good chance this could go on for a while so I want to I want to give it some thought. After all, it's not often you get a chance like this.

So what character build have you gotten the most devious pleasure out of?

Doing that is a sure fire way to seriously p*** off the other players. I've seen this done and it pretty much resulted in a TPK, to the degree that even the offending player couldn't play his character anymore.

Unless you're in a game where literally everyone is fair game and it is known from the onset, then I wouldn't recommend it.

How would you feel if your character you've played for months, if not years, gets killed by another PC who joined in who had in for you the whole time?

- J.

[faceroll]

Do you want to play a screw-the-party character?
Okay, here we go:
1. Play a spellthief
2. Be of Chaotic Evil to the point of Chaotic Stupid
3. Make sure your party is heavy on casters
4. Refuse to help the party in even the slightest of efforts unless it specifically benefits you (ex.: "What's that dear Duskblade? That monster impaled your colon and you desperately need a healing potion, of which I have more than enough? My, that's an impressive belt of giants strength, I'm sure you'd be willing to part with it to save your life, right?")
5. If your party finds a way to convince you to help, steal the spells from your caster friends and use them to only your benefit instead of that from the entire party. (ex.: Father Healson McHealbot, the party cleric, is about to convert one of his less important spell into a cure critical wounds to save the life of the Duskblade, who got his colon impaled for the 100th time in an attempt to save your ungrateful arse. However, just as Healson is about to close in on him, you tap him on the shoulder and steal his cure critical wounds to heal your own insignificant 7 hp you suffered from a stray arrow). Bonus points if you happen to steal a persisted divine power spell from a cleric.
6. ????
7. The DM throws a DMG at your face
8. You're hospitalised for a day or two
9. ????
10. PROFIT

Bonus points if your Chaotic Stupid spellthief is a stereotypical slutty bisexual elf princess with more wardrobe malfunctions than plotholes in Twillight.

I don't get it.


How would you feel if your character you've played for months, if not years, gets killed by another PC who joined in who had in for you the whole time?

Relevance?

[TheJake]

Relevance?

I was attempting to point out that what the OP is suggesting is a douche move that perhaps he had not considered the consequences for.

- J.

[faceroll]

I was attempting to point out that what the OP is suggesting is a douche move that perhaps he had not considered the consequences for.

- J.

Where'd the OP suggest that?

[Tybot]

Who said anything about ruining fun? It sounds more like he's going to be playing the typical NPC-that-turns-on-the-party.
Yes, this.

I'm not looking to be an ******* and ruin everyone else's fun. The DM is working with me on this. It's already stated that the party is meant to successfully complete the campaign, at least this first time out. It's to add some intrigue to the story and show off the some of the more inventive and unorthodox things you can do within the rules of the game.

I'll use discretion, but that doesn't mean I can't have fun being creative about it.

[Tybot]

I was attempting to point out that what the OP is suggesting is a douche move that perhaps he had not considered the consequences for.

- J.

I think you're being too quick to assume I'm being a douche and that I'm not putting any thought into this. The whole reason I'm looking for ideas is so I have the ability to pick and choose how and when I make things interesting, and not have to resort to extreme measures that's sure to break the party.

I'm being treated as part of the plot and am working with the DM on this, and I'm trying to figure out the character now so I can inform the DM and give him a chance to work with it. The only difference between me and a plot NPC is it's me in control of the character.

[Kaeso]

I don't get it.

The character I described is, IMHO, the ultimate douchebag PC. He doesn't care about anything unless it specifically caters to his specific needs, uses party resources on himself rather than others, wether the rest of the group agrees on it or not, and is Chaotic Stupid and thus liable to get the party into trouble. Nobody would last 30 minutes with such a party member before all of them (even the Paladin(!)) band together to backstab him, purely so they can adventure in relative peace.

[Jayh]

Changeling beguiler. I was operating as an infiltrator for an undead invasion, and the party were the elite strike team that fought them. They routinely had bad data, went into ambushes, suffered much higher casualties then expected, and lost of a ton of troops.

My guy eventually got upgraded to doppleganger and greater doppleganger for his success. It backfired though, when he tried to eat the big bad in the final scene. I tried a brainsucking on a lich, and succeeded... but he took over my body. So the party had to fight a greater doppleganger epic spellcaster.

Very satisfying ending.

[opticalshadow]

dread necro worked for me realy well. i had enough options that i could fill in diffrent roles, so nobody knew what my class actually was, i remained useful to the party withou revealing any of my real plans. with enough magic or a really good disguies check i was able to disguise my undead minions as mercenaries and such that i had negotiated into helping us or other wise plain lied to the party with great rolls. meanwhile only having one or two brutes ever with me, i also managed to hide my undead nature to the party, it wasnt very hard as very few players ever look into theior fellow players.

at night i would sneak off leaving my pet to guard camp, not needing sleep and didnt often cast many spells id search the grounds for corpses or such. id also early on in my adventures find a lair to send my growing minions to, they would mine resources and i would stock pile items and loot from small viallages that would dissappear, leavign behind some dead orcs to fake the scene. i was at this point more wealthy then the rest of the party, with an army that would have over run them easy (this was getting around level 8) i would start taking cleric levels next to help with my army, and to gain some need travel eventually gainin teleport and at night traveling to my fortress.

at this point i would use my skills to minupulate the party into going where i wanted, to get close enough to stronger minions, eventually gaining a dragon (though to do so i had to disuade them by using a large chunk of undead to steer them away from out planned route. i didnt actaully know the dragon lair was there, i just had information from in town about something big living here and i wanted it) i hadnt at this point ever in front of the party turned undead, so they still did not knwo what i was or what i could fully do, but the cleric said he alone couldnt turn them all.

coming to level 12 i was becoming the bbeg, i was obsessed with exotic undead, and used my magic and armies to kill more to get forces i could send to get these creatures, i had opened sevral stores in small towns and cities using my spoils of war to get more wealth. ive made sevral deals with warlords and kings to trade forces if ever the time was needed, and my lair was lined with traps, black sand, and creatures both living and not, i had shifted from neutral to evil, and i became very paranoid of my party forcing my hand. i knew i could probly kill them, they were open about what they had and could do, i planed each death carefuly if the day would come. the dm took me aside as he had done many many times. i asured him i didnt plan to do anything to them, but i would continue mny private ventures.

i became the bbeg, i took to much and drew to much attention, i knew i could dissappear, i never gave the party my name, and i had enough shops around the land to fund my life long enough for them to grow old. but the dm asked if i would be willing to be the end boss, i had done the job for him already, commiting vastly evil acts, amassing an army, creating a miticous fortress hand crafted to kill anyone who entered without me, i had stock piled magic items and aranged mercenary forces to rival a cities milita in trade for troops. it was level 15, and my "friends" were going to soon learn my terrible truth.




then the dm had some big familiy issues had to move and the campaign ended, i honestly dont know if i would have killed them, but i had enough in place i could escape and out live them, but i know i had spent many many sessions manipulating their actions, using them as pawns to get power, downright sending undead to attack them from time to time to do so. i spied on them, i planed their death. id concider that the most devious evil party member you could imagine.

and because of my obsession with keeping secret, i managed to evade their woe, though they never trusted me, i was always watched, it took them almost a year of playing before i could actually stand watch as we camped, an almost year before i could sneak off in the dark and begin my master plan.

i wanted to raise a city of the undead, a place we could live in the open, and establish trade routes, bring our own religion, bring about a new era, just as orbuld many arrows did for the orcs, i would for the undead.

[Tybot]

Changeling beguiler. I was operating as an infiltrator for an undead invasion, and the party were the elite strike team that fought them. They routinely had bad data, went into ambushes, suffered much higher casualties then expected, and lost of a ton of troops.

My guy eventually got upgraded to doppleganger and greater doppleganger for his success. It backfired though, when he tried to eat the big bad in the final scene. I tried a brainsucking on a lich, and succeeded... but he took over my body. So the party had to fight a greater doppleganger epic spellcaster.

Very satisfying ending.

This sounds more like what I'm looking for, and I agree, quite the satisfying ending. :)

[Jayh]

Yeah, I had a lot of fun with him. Most major NPCs were me, as I got to them before the party did, so could redirect things as needed. I was the captain of the vessel they were in, the colonel giving the briefing, the wizard loremaster giving them the quest...

[Tybot]

dread necro worked for me realy well. i had enough options that i could fill in diffrent roles, so nobody knew what my class actually was, i remained useful to the party withou revealing any of my real plans. Also sounds like fun.

[Jayh]

Ive also done really silly builds.

A warlock (class) who was convinced he was a monk (shatter, spiderclimb, eldritch blast was ranged ki attack). He claimed to be from the Transient Order of the Eternal Fruitbat, hung from a lot of rafters.

Or a dwarven wizard who I played like he had escaped dwarf fortress. He never used spells, just did melee attacks (gloves of shocking grasp), loved cats and booze, and didnt speak common. No one in the party spoke dwarvish.

Also, he never bathed.

[Inferno]

Changeling beguiler.

This. Charms, Suggestions and the like can go a long way for this sort of thing. Just make sure the party is not aware of your race, pick a persona for dealing with the party and roll with it (to all appearances be a half-orc or something). That way you can just change appearance, race and gender and go tell the npc's that your party is plotting to kill the king(or whatever seems like fun)

[Jayh]

I faked my death a fair bit too. If you grab gloves of arrow deflection and belt of the monk, you can play up being something that what you are, which is key. Ive used fake familiars, holy symbols of other religions, anything to deceive and confuse.

Maskirovka, comrade, always maskirovka.

[Talonblaze]

The key thing about making something like this is not t be straightforward and hostile to the party from the start and giving them no breathing room.

Being a villain that plans ahead is not an easy task and requires just as much thought as the good guys. Besides, its not entirely ruining things, its creating more events. After all not all of the bad guy's things are going to succeed. And should probably only reveal and go hostile till near the end for a climatic dialogue.

It can go one of two ways. the good guy succeed or they fail at the hands of their party member. the same happens to any notable and close NPC.

Those bad guys the pc fought? could have been created by the bad guy. it can add more to the story if done well. keeps the pcs on their toes and thinking.

[Fitz10019]

Most major NPCs were me, as I got to them before the party did, so could redirect things as needed. I was the captain of the vessel they were in, the colonel giving the briefing, the wizard loremaster giving them the quest...


"Me, me, me, me..."

Even aside from the screw-over factor, I don't like this kind of gaming. The OP's goal is to make his character more important than the others', and that, to me, is a terrible introduction to the game. To be honest, it's not my kind of gaming even if it's not an introduction. My $.02, no charge.

Also note, your goal to screw them is railroading, because their in-game decisions don't matter to you. You should set an in-game goal, and pursue it as a PC. Don't just automatically screw the party.

[only1doug]

Think carefully about how the party betral will occur and how it will affect the party dynamic. You want the betrayal to be a great gaming moment, not an awful one.

In the same star wars game we had 2 PCs (on seperate occasions, for different reasons) betray the party, one occasion was epic win, the other was epic fail.

PC 1 was a standard rebel type, he stole our ship and sacrificed himself to take out a star destroyer. (Epic FAIL! we loved that ship, we had spent months of game time upgrading it)

PC2 was a Jedi Kid who eventually turned to the dark side, he had been left on the ship on his own while the grown ups went on a mission (steal a different ship) so he left without permission and stole the target ship before the team could (useing inflict pain and a gaining a darkside point in the process). (Epic Win! he went on to become a THE overarching NPC villain for the rest of the campaign and we still remember the incident fondly).

Ideally you should work with the GM to decide how and when the betrayal should occur.

My preference would be something along the lines of:

A church of St Cuthbert the Protector has hired the group to retrieve and protect the (insert artifact here) which is a great tool for evil, once it has been claimed from its current owners your PC should then betray the party by stealing it and claiming (maybe absorbing) its powers and then escaping. Exit PC mode, now hes an NPC and the party have a target to hunt. The church can be a continuous sponser, helping the party know where the NPC is plotting his evil next.

Its probably best to have a few (but not too many) indicators that your character should not be 100% trusted. If you are selfserving and backstabbing all the time they will never trust you, if you are to nice and good all the time then the betrayal wont be believable.

I'd recommend that whenever loot is given out you try to twist the distribution towards powering up the weakest party member as the first priority, then yourself next.
Or try suggesting that the useful items that you don't need should go to the party members who are going to want the item you want.
"well I think John should get the ring of protection +2 as he needs it most of all, then perhaps I should have the +1 flaming longsword, as it will be of most use to the party in my hands".

[TheRinni]

One thing I would definitely do:
Don’t give your party members the option to Meta Game. As Newbies, the temptation might be too much. Don’t reveal your motives even out of game.

This means you only have one shot at a “big reveal.” You have to build your plan carefully through feigned indifference, motives, etc. Here’s an example: say your party is supposed to help the King. You announce to the party that you’re going to go gather information about said King. Ask to speak to the DM alone for a minute to explain what you’re doing, let the party think that this alone time is for the sole purpose of the DM passing along information only your character would know. When you return, and find the rest of your party, tell them you’ve received secret intel that suggests the King is actually corrupt. This is, of course, a lie.

That’s a very basic example of something you could do. For this type of character I think it’s obvious you would want someone with a high Charisma and intelligence.

I would suggest a Bard. Perhaps something along the lines of this: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5496158 If I were to make a character for this role, my cover-up would be the helpful party bard, who just stays in the back and buffs the party. In actuality, I would be a cultist leader of some sort, who uses Fascinate and Perform: Oratory to convert the masses to my cause.

EDIT:
Personally, I love this type of game. It can lead to an exciting "who's the mole?" scenario. In addition, it is a beautiful plot twist. The emotion the other characters would feel at being betrayed would be wonderful to roleplay.... I've had setups like this in my games, and it's always lead to an intense, emotional climax. Having your characters deal with negative emotions - like the devastating feeling of betrayal - can really bring them to life. If a game were all "happiness and sunshine," I certainly wouldn't enjoy it as a Player.

[Tybot]

Even aside from the screw-over factor, I don't like this kind of gaming.
Luckily for me, I'm not seeking public approval. You're just gonna have to trust me.

Think carefully about how the party betral will occur and how it will affect the party dynamic. You want the betrayal to be a great gaming moment, not an awful one.

Ideally you should work with the GM to decide how and when the betrayal should occur.
This is exactly what I'm doing, yes.

One thing I would definitely do:
Don’t give your party members the option to Meta Game. As Newbies, the temptation might be too much. Don’t reveal your motives even out of game.
Because we live across the country, it's going to be an online game. Not quite the same as being at the same table, but one upside is that I have plenty of opportunity to have a covert conversation with the DM in a chat window.

[Fitz10019]

Luckily for me, I'm not seeking public approval. You're just gonna have to trust me.
Fair enough, but consider the railroading perspective. I suggest you pick your character's goal(s) in advance, and if the party adopts your goal(s), just roll with it -- don't flip the goal(s) for the sake of the meta-goal of screwing the party.

[TheRinni]

... your goal to screw them is railroading ...
I disagree. By that logic, any Big Evil Boss in a campaign is railroading. It's a plot point, an encounter, roughly set up by the DM at the beginning of the game. How, when, and why it occurs may be subject to change based on what all the characters do.

[deuxhero]

Be a one winged raptorian warblade who uses a prosthetic wing and has been promised by the BBEG he'll be given power to avenge his slain family if he helps.

:smallcool:

[tahu88810]

I have a lot of experience in playing the sneaky, evil betrayer types. Not because I'm a jerk who enjoys ruining the rest of the party's fun, but because the concept is incredibly interesting and, when used sparingly and effectively, can be fun.

I don't know what your goal is (and if you said it in the thread at some point, I'm afraid I missed it), but that being said I can give you some basic tips because I have been there and done that.

There are two things that you need in order for the rest of the group to enjoy your betrayal.
The first is a sympathetic character. You need to understand the setting, you need to understand the party, and you need to understand the other players. But most importantly, you need to understand your character. You need to lovingly craft every bit of your character's back-story and personality, every step of the way. You need to understand what motivates and drives them, you need to know their flaws as well as their strengths almost as well as you know your own. Perhaps more-so, depending on how well you know yourself. This is important, because it is imperative that the other players like your spook as a character. They may not love him, they may not even think he's a good person, but it is absolutely imperative that they enjoy their time spent with him. He needs to be compelling, or everything else will fail.

The second is a gambit. This character will need plan, upon plan, upon plan. The more complex and entangled the better. Time should NOT be a factor, if the plan does not come to fruition until the final session then so be it. So long as it does, and it is well crafted. If the trap is not exquisitely laid, it will feel like a farce. And, indeed, it will be.
Just stabbing them in the back at a crucial moment will not do. You will need to poke and prod them, pointing your finger at the guy next to you every time they turn around, until finally you kick them in the back of the knees and curb-stomp their face into boiling lava. In short, the betrayal needs to be worthy of such a compelling villain and the heroes whom he chooses to combat.

After those two things, all else is secondary.
You'll likely find that a character with good social skills is far more useful than some rotting magi or a sword-swinging brute, however. I would also highly recommend giving the players small chances to catch on to what's going on, maybe slipping up now and then. Perhaps even slipping up to a greater degree as time goes on. Foreshadowing will help a lot.

Sound like a lot of work? That's because it is, you're setting yourself up as an alternate BBEG. That's almost comparable to the job of a DM.

[Esprit15]

Neutral Evil Ninja Assassin Drow. (http://www.rpg.net/columns/building/building16.phtml)

Bonus points if you can work the acronym into your name without the rest of the group catching on.


Swap ninja and assassin and you can be Lean/Nean/Cean D-something.

[JonRG]

Elan telepath with a dip into Mindbender for Mindsight.

I went middle-aged for the bonus, so I was 250 but looked just like any other adventurer. I had a Knowledge modifier of +15 in any given field, so I was the go-to guy for information. Most of my abilities had no overt displays, and my buffed Bluff modifier was over +60. I tricked enemies into believing I was on their side, and the players were absolutely terrified of me. Now if only I'd remembered to turn on them... :smallconfused: The penultimate encounter made it seem like I had though (Big Bad said, "Nice job delivering those stupid adventurers. Drop the act and join us.") Since I was amazingly cooperative OOC, none of the players bought it. IC though... I basically argued that if I were going to betray them, I'd have done a much better job. :smallamused:

EDIT: This was a sort of Pathfinder/3.5 mix (before DSP released PF psionics), so your mileage may vary.

[TheJake]

Where'd the OP suggest that?

From the OP:


I want to play nicey nice until I can turn the tables on everyone else and make out with the goods


I don't know how far the OP wants to take it but I can only assume its not going to result in happy players at his table. If you can't fathom the consequences of his actions and how they might result in angst, I really don't know what to tell you.

My point was to purely point out ramifications he may not have considered. That's it.

Its a different matter entirely if the players and DM are totally on board and accept its a dog eat dog world.

- J.

[Zylle]

I think the point of it is that the players are still going to win in the end, but the OP is working with the DM to add a bit of intrigue to the campaign before they eventually prevail. Which could actually turn out making the campaign quite memorable in my opinion :smallsmile:

[TheJake]

I think the point of it is that the players are still going to win in the end, but the OP is working with the DM to add a bit of intrigue to the campaign before they eventually prevail. Which could actually turn out making the campaign quite memorable in my opinion :smallsmile:

Not saying it can't, but it really depends on the player dynamic.

I've seen it done well, I've seen it done poorly. But either way, if you aren't considering how the other players might feel, you're definitely doing it wrong.

- J.

[Kerrin]

The out-of-character game set-up appears to be that the two experienced players introducing the game to new players are working in concert to betray the characters of the new players.

It could come off well, it might not. It's heavily dependent upon how it's done and the real-life people involved.

Personally, I don't enjoy betrayal from within the party. Some conflict, yes. Outright betrayal, no. Just not my cup of tea.

I hope it goes well for you and comes off in a dramatic fashion that's enjoyable for all.

[One Step Two]

I've only really skimmed the comments, so pardon me if this has already been mentioned.

A more creative, and less obvious way to work against the party is as a powerful support role. A rogue is an obvious choice, where you "don't" find every third trap, or "forget" to mention certain secret doors and passages. Increasing the challenge for them in that way as opposed to preparing to back-stab the lot of them. Secret notes to the GM to move magic items around is also fun. If certain party members, for example, keep a wand in their belt pouch, moving it to their backpack as they sleep with slight of hand checks, just to delay their actions.

Another idea is playing a caster in a buffing role. You may "accidentally" find yourself in a poor position to buff everyone at once, or dismiss the spell effect earlier than normal. Or even playing such a significant role to the party success for a few sessions, making them rely on your buffs for their ease of success. Then at a few crucial moments simply being absent from the party using excuses due to character background to not be there or the like.

This is more efficent manner of causing tension in the party because of it's subtlety to my mind.

[Jayh]

Even aside from the screw-over factor, I don't like this kind of gaming. The OP's goal is to make his character more important than the others', and that, to me, is a terrible introduction to the game. To be honest, it's not my kind of gaming even if it's not an introduction. My $.02, no charge.

Also note, your goal to screw them is railroading, because their in-game decisions don't matter to you. You should set an in-game goal, and pursue it as a PC. Don't just automatically screw the party.

Well, sure. It does require a soft touch - the other players knew what I was doing, but we enjoyed the give and take of deception in game. And it had a heroic ending - I got my brains eaten and mind controlled, and my body was blasted to bits by the party.

So yeah, you *can* be the sneaky bastard... but you need to be careful about it. It can be a game wrecker if you do it wrong.

For example, later game. It was me (dread necro in a party of necros), and our other guy, who was a druid/MMF. We has this big quest to find the macguffin to stop the awakening of an elder evil. He found it, but didnt share it with the party, elder evil awakens, the planet is destroyed. I like tragedies and horror, but this game didnt have it; it had frustration and annoyance that this guy wasnt participating.

[Eisirt]

Just sayin'. They're newbies. If anything this will drive them off from the hobby.

This.


So, unless you and your DM never want to play with these people again... don't do it.


Save it for a group of experienced roleplayers that can take a punch.

[blackjack217]

Thrallherd, be the big bad.

[MukkTB]

Lets assume the party alignment is N/G. This general idea would work for any alignment but we will assume they are trying to be heroes.

It seems that the way to make this fun for noobies is to drop obvious hints that your character is evil along the way. Do morally questionable things that push the line. Dabble in the Dark Arts or suggest reverance for a dark diety - "Pelor! Pelor! I meant Pelor." Then when it comes to a confrontation with the big bad reveal your true colors in a dramatic way. Bonus points if you can claim that you were the true mastermind behind the evil plot.

Example Character
Misbah the Royal Vizier*
Sorcerer
Claim the character is a functionary for the court and that you serve the King/Queen/Emperor/Whatever. Your motivation is to obtain more power for yourself.
Run a simple Sorcerer stat distribution. Classic squishy wizard. mid-low Str+Dex+Con and go for high Cha+Int. Use combat spells that are needlessly complicated instead of just throwing fireballs, sadistic even. Rant about how powerful you are/will be but keep a good bluff skill for when you're pretending to be a good little minion of the authority. Cultivate the guards and claim it is the will of higher authority anytime you give an order.
Charm person is a neccesary spell.

(*NOTE A GM may not let you start out a 'royal vizier' normally. My group house rules that if you want to be upper crust prince/princess/lord ect. you have to take aristocrat as your lvl 1 class. Since this GM is instructing you to do it, show him the character and describe it to him. If he doesn't let you take that position and title go for something simpler like 'court functionary.')

EDIT - Throw the final battle using stupid overcomplicated tactics and doing silly villainous things. If you need ideas, go read the Evil overlord's list. The noobies should win.

[Thiyr]

Example Character
Jafar the Royal Vizier
Sorcerer


Change in bold. You know you want to.

PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS! Itty-bitty living space.

[Karoht]

High Charisma character, pretty much a jerk, we'll call him Bob.
Bob managed to steal all the tents from everyone in the group. On the first night of the expedition.
Where does the expedition go through first? A nasty, bug filled, hot, humid boggy stinky swamp.

The following was to be heard at the campfire that night.

"Tents for sale, 60g, don't wanna sleep in the swamp without a tent! Tents for sale, 60g!"
"Give our tents back jerkwad"
"Can you prove that these belonged to you at some point"
*roll* "No"
"Tents for sale, 100g, don't wanna sleep in the swamp without a tent! Tents for sale, 100g!"


Would you believe that absolutely no one saw his treachery coming?

[137beth]

High Charisma character, pretty much a jerk, we'll call him Bob.
Bob managed to steal all the tents from everyone in the group. On the first night of the expedition.
Where does the expedition go through first? A nasty, bug filled, hot, humid boggy stinky swamp.

The following was to be heard at the campfire that night.

"Tents for sale, 60g, don't wanna sleep in the swamp without a tent! Tents for sale, 60g!"
"Give our tents back jerkwad"
"Can you prove that these belonged to you at some point"
*roll* "No"
"Tents for sale, 100g, don't wanna sleep in the swamp without a tent! Tents for sale, 100g!"


Would you believe that absolutely no one saw his treachery coming?

If that happened to my group, they would just kill him and take the tents for free:smalltongue:

[Kerrin]

If that happened to my group, they would just kill him and take the tents for free:smalltongue:
I was thinking the same thing. Characters acting like that don't last long in the parties I've played in.

Like the AD&D character who used Dust of Sneezing and Choking on a party member's bedroll as a joke. One failed saving throw later ... two dead PCs ... one from the "joke" and one from the repercussions.

[TwylyghT]

Dratsab Rotiart, human beguiler.

[MukkTB]

Misbah has some kind of association with lamp. Why I choose that name. Can't be too obvious. :smallsmile:

And you can always add in a bit of
"Oh, greatest king on all the Earth, this lowborn cobbler of no worth attacked me in the square today...shall we take his head away?"

[Kenneth]

Wait.. I am totally confused about this thread.

SO you want to be a jerk and shaft some people who are just starting to play D&D.

that is a pretty jerk move there IMO. shouldn't you want somebody first experience of D&D to be a good one, not where they spend a lot of time making a character and putting forth various forms of investments into it, only to be screwed over by somebody you thought was on your side the whole time?


that is probably teh biggest exampl of pure asshatery i have ever seen. these guys/girls are probably never going to want to play D&D again after this, becuase their thought process is going tobe thus " why should be play again, you are just going to invite bob to play and crap all over us again, screw you man"

[AMFV]

High Charisma character, pretty much a jerk, we'll call him Bob.
Bob managed to steal all the tents from everyone in the group. On the first night of the expedition.
Where does the expedition go through first? A nasty, bug filled, hot, humid boggy stinky swamp.

The following was to be heard at the campfire that night.

"Tents for sale, 60g, don't wanna sleep in the swamp without a tent! Tents for sale, 60g!"
"Give our tents back jerkwad"
"Can you prove that these belonged to you at some point"
*roll* "No"
"Tents for sale, 100g, don't wanna sleep in the swamp without a tent! Tents for sale, 100g!"


Would you believe that absolutely no one saw his treachery coming?
Actually diplomacy and charisma based skills explicitly do not work on player characters. Sense motive included, basically to prevent this kind of ridiculousness.

[beamersrq]

Haven't played 3.5 in a while, but a friend of mine is looking to bring some friends into playing for the first time with a lvl 3 adventure. I'm being brought in as an experienced player to help out the newbies, but I also have a secret objective that the DM has signed off on. I'm here to screw the party over.


So you're there to help out the newbies, and your way of "helping" them is to screw them over? Add me to the "are you serious?" camp.

I'm a relative newby (only been playing since November) and have experienced a few PvP moments, including one death (by a newbie player who still thinks he's playing an online RPG). Each one has left me in an uncomfortable position - I'm torn between letting the aggressor play his character as he wants, but also feeling he should face the consequences which in many cases would mean my character would not adventure with him anymore. Being new I let it slide (as did the DM) since I didn't want to break up the party, but it makes the RPing feel very fake and forced now. If what you're proposing to do would have happened to me in my first experience, I'd be very disillusioned that someone we were meant to trust & bond with could take all our hard-earned loot - I see no fun in that.

It seems that the way to make this fun for noobies is to drop obvious hints that your character is evil along the way. Do morally questionable things that push the line. Dabble in the Dark Arts or suggest reverance for a dark diety - "Pelor! Pelor! I meant Pelor." Then when it comes to a confrontation with the big bad reveal your true colors in a dramatic way. Bonus points if you can claim that you were the true mastermind behind the evil plot.

And how the heck are new players supposed to pick up on hints at all, not knowing most of the rules, gods, etc?

This whole plan sounds like someone putting his chance at being AWESOME ahead of letting the NEWBIES have the spotlight so they develop a love for the game. You can introduce them to the dark side of PC's later once they've had their taste of the basic premise of D&D = a COOPERATIVE RPG where PC's are the Heroes. As experienced players you've already had plenty of that and appear to be wanting to explore other options - natural, but please don't do it at the expense of new players.

[Arbane]

that is probably teh biggest exampl of pure asshatery i have ever seen. these guys/girls are probably never going to want to play D&D again after this, becuase their thought process is going tobe thus " why should be play again, you are just going to invite bob to play and crap all over us again, screw you man"

Mission accomplished. After all, the LAST thing this hip, exclusive hobby needs is some bunch of stupid noob PLAYERS.

[MukkTB]

The evil advisor isn't exactly something that you only find in D&D. Furthermore knowledge of Aladdin is not exclusive to D&D players. Finally the betrayal I suggested isn't one thats going to totally dishearten the noobs. The DM balances the DC of the final encounter for them VS the evil player + NPCs. The evil character makes his evil known with a maniacal monologue rather than just stabbing them in their sleep.

This is the kind of evil designed for good characters to run happily over.

EDIT - Is it really 'hogging the spotlight' if the DM sets you up to be a glorified npc villain? It would be one thing if the plan was to kill them and taunt how awful they are. Its a total different thing if you set them up to win.

[GiedalCaine]

I skipped past a page or so of "good idea, bad idea" drama to just give my recommendation.

I'd suggest bard, which an emphasis on illusions and charms more so then some of the other utility spells. Get a decent save DC where you can and you've got a lot of options.

Party getting a bit too many friends in town? Charm a group of toughs to come and bully them. Get em to start such a ruckus that th party has to either fight them (killing or wounding would get a bad rep) or leave town (thus denying them of that support structure).

Want a chance to misdirect the party away from your BBES (Big Bad Evil Scheme) illusions can help you with that (I'd recommend decent hide and move silently as well so you can sneak out of camp at night to "lay the scene").

Oh and make sure your Perform skill is in something that renders you incapable of combat while maintaining your buffs. They'll thank you for your contribution while you fail to even lift a finger to aid them directly. Take the subsonics feat to every now and then toss a silence spell on yourself thus negating your only real benefit to the party.

You might not be able to directly Diplomancy or Bluff the party, but there's always good roleplaying. You don't have to roll a bluff check to straight up in character lie to another player. "What? No, I really did fail my listen check to wake up to fight that ambush six times in a row." All the while you merely held your eyes shut and smiled.

[Fitz10019]

Rather than be the covert BBEG, or an NPC in PC's clothing, you could just be a PC who secretly admires the real BBEG's scheme, and attempts to hijack it at the climax (without running the show all along).

[Karoht]

Actually diplomacy and charisma based skills explicitly do not work on player characters. Sense motive included, basically to prevent this kind of ridiculousness.Actually, he used his low and crappy dexterity to get his hands on the equipment, then just played innocently.
The roll the other player made was DM fiat-an intelligence check to spot something out of the ordinary that would indeed prove who the tents belonged to.
Irrelevant details, I know, pardon my pedantry.

Overall though, it was in it's way a great example of how to be a complete jerk to the party, without really causing any serious harm or impeding the game (much), and still causing a laugh or two. Which it did.

It was actually more sad and funny that despite many acts such as this one, no one saw his eventual backstab coming.