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View Full Version : 3.5 Cleric/Druid PrC, help and critique?



skycycle blues
2011-09-04, 09:48 AM
I'm quite new here and this is also my first homebrew attempt.
Here goes.

Nature's Blessed- A divine hero, blessed by the gods of nature with casting beyond normal means, as well as the ability to control and even become a mighty beast.


Requirments:

Alignment:Must be within one step of Deity (as Cleric).
Skills:Knowledge (religion) 8 and (nature) 8, Handle Animal 6
Special:Must have an animal companion.
Must have ability to turn or rebuke undead.
Must worship one of the following deities: Ehlonna, Pelor, Obad-Hai or Fharlanghn + any other nature based gods.


Class features:

HP d8, 4+ int skill points, druid+ cleric skill list

{table=head] Level | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Special | Spell Casting
1st | +0 | +2 | +0 | +2 | Animal Companion/Special Mount, Turn Undead, Domain Level | +1 level of each of two different divine casting levels
2nd | +1 | +3 | +0 | +3 | Wild Shape (1/day) | +1 level of one divine casting class
3rd | +2 | +3 | +1 | +3 | Nature's Smite (1/day), Bonus Domain | +1 level of each of two different divine casting classes
4th | +3 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Bonus Feat | +1 level of one divine casting class
5th | +3 | +4 | +1 | +4 | Wild Shape (2/day) | +1 level of each of two different divine casting classes
6th | +4 | +5 | +2 | +5 | Nature's Smite (2/day) | +1 level of one divine casting class
7th | +5 | +5 | +2 | +5 | | +1 level of each of two different divine casting classes
8th | +6 | +6 | +2 | +6 | Bonus Feat, Wild Shape (3/day) | +1 level of one divine casting class
9th | +6 | +6 | +3 | +6 |Nature's Smite (3/day), Bonus Domain | +1 level of each of two different divine casting classes
10th | +7 | +7 |+3 |+7 | Wild Shape (Large) | +1 level of one divine casting class [/table]


Spell casting- At each odd level, +1 level of spell casting for each of two different divine casting classes. At every even level, +1 level of casting for one divine casting class.

Animal Companion- Levels of Nature's Blessed stack with Effective Druid Level to determine abilities of Animal Companion.

Turning Undead- Levels of Nature's Blessed with Effective Cleric Level for turning.

Domain Level- Levels of Nature's Blessed stack with cleric level for Domain granted abilities

Wild Shape- At level 2, a Nature's Blessed gains Wild Shape (as the druid ability), usable once per day. The number of times this is usable per day increases to 2 at level 5 and again to 3 at level 8. At level 10, a Nature's Blessed can Wild Shape into a Large creature. Each Wild Shape lasts a number of hours equal to Druid level + 1/2 Ranger level + Nature's Blessed level.

Nature's Smite- Beginning at 3rd level, a Nature's Blessed may perform a smite attack once per day against any of the following creature types: aberrations, constructs, humanoids, oozes, outsiders, and undead.
Add your CHA modifier to the attack roll and Nature's Blessed level to damage. At level 6 and again at level 9, this smite may be used one additional time per day.

Bonus feats- At levels 4 and 8, a Nature's Blessed gains a bonus feat from a list of Divine Feats, Wild Feats, Smite Feats, Turning Feats and Devotion Feats of any of the following devotions: Animal, Plant, Sun, Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Luck, Travel. The Nature's Blessed must still qualify for this feat. A Nature's Blessed may gain access to a Devotion Feat that a Cleric of their deity could not normally gain access to in this way, however he may not have any more than three devotion feats in total.

Bonus Domains- At level 3 and again at level 9, gain access to one of any of the following domains: Animal, Plant, Sun, Air, Earth, Fire, Water, Luck, Travel.
A Nature's Blessed cannot regain a Domain that they have given up in order to gain access to a Devotion Feat.

Morph Bark
2011-09-04, 09:56 AM
So you want to create CaDzilla?

I've thought of doing that to be honest, but it's a bad idea. Basically you are gestalting Druid and Cleric here since you advance everything they have.

Cleric can gain the ability to have his buff spells active all day. Druid can be wildshaped for most of the day and cast spells in wildshape. At high enough level (depending on the prerequisites), this class might even be able become a Gargantuan dinosaur for the entire day with very little BAB loss and a ton of other buffs on the side. And that's not even talking about all the non-buff spells he could cast as a dinosaur.

And on the side you still have an animal companion who is as strong as a Fighter (when you don't share your buff spells with it, otherwise it is much stronger).


It's not that Arcane Hierophant is overpowered, it's that the classes it advances are. And that's why you have to watch out with casting PrC balance and why Theurge classes who combine two casting classes tend to have prerequisites that make them offputting and weaker than single-casting-class casters.

My suggestion is to make this a Paladin/Druid PrC instead (or a Cleric/Druid one that does only half-advances Cleric casting), since you have smite in there already and they also gain Turn Undead. Take out the wildshape requirement though, otherwise you would need to be rather high level before entry. Make it require 2nd-level Druid spells and put in a BAB requirement perhaps too (BAB+3 for instance).

skycycle blues
2011-09-04, 10:17 AM
Although I think Arcane Hierophant is one of the best classes that exists, I've seen arguments that it is inherently inferior to either a Druid or Wizard that has never lost any caster levels for either. As far as I can tell, while Clerics are still quite good, they seem to be considered less powerful overall than Wizards, so I don't think the full casting is for both is a problem. In fact that's the point of the class and one of the things that I think has to stay.

As for Wild shape, I'm not sure how to do it. I want Rangers that enter this class to be able to gain Wild Shape. Maybe I could treat it the same as effective Druid level for Animal Companion? I would have it be to add one half of the Nature's Blessed level, but then Rangers couldn't get it until level 10 NB, so 16 level character.

Maraxus1
2011-09-04, 11:21 AM
I don't care for this "Arcane Hierophant". If I'd see it, I'd probably not allow it from what I read. But the idea of a cleric giving up a single level and getting level 11 druid casting, wild shape and animal companion is just wrong, wrong wrong. Same goes for DruidX/Cleric1/This10.

What about this:
Requirements: Must be able to cast summon nature's ally II and summon Monster II as a divine spell.
(Or let's be straight about it: Druid or substitute 3, Cleric or substitute 3. Just to prevent that someone finds an obscure domain with SNA II)

...

Spells: +1 to a single divine caster class.

Advance in Turn undead, wild shape, animal companion - okay
Bonus feats, smites, bonus domains, capstone - not


Edit: okay, this might be a little too strict, +1 single class on odd, +1 on two classes on even for a total of +10/+5 progression should be okay.

jiriku
2011-09-04, 11:46 AM
Here is Cipher's lovely table-making tutorial thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205677). It shall aid you greatly.

A few general comments on class balance:
Wizard, druid, and cleric are commonly considered to be all of a feather when it comes to class power, although cleric is a (slight) notch behind the other two. However, combined druid/cleric spellcasting is less powerful than combined arcane/divine casting, because there is considerable overlap between the two casting lists. That said, it's still darn good.

Critique of your class:
Druid is a feature-rich class, and cleric domains and turning ability are generally considered pretty snazzy features as well. I would suggest that just keeping and progressing all of those neat features while progressing casting in both classes is very, very strong, without need to resort to adding new features. Looking at your feature set, I'd recommend:

Animal companion stacking with effective druid level - YES
Wild Shape - Grant, but do not stack with druid levels in any way. Simply provide the uses per day you think appropriate (should be less than a straight druid would receive). Do not grant advancements to the size or type of wild shape option.
Turn undead stacks with existing turning ability - YES
Nature's Smite - NO
Bonus domains - NO, but do stack with cleric levels to determine strength of cleric domain powers.
Twin Casting - NO

skycycle blues
2011-09-04, 11:58 AM
Ideally, I want the requirements to be set so that you have to be either Ranger 4/Cleric 3, Paladin 4/Druid 3, Ranger 4/Paladin 4 or Druid 3/Cleric 3 to be able to enter, while not being able to enter before level 6. I would like to have caster requirement for specific spells, but I couldn't find any combination of spells that includes a Druid 2 spell that is also a Ranger 1 spell and a Cleric 2 spell that is also a Paladin 1 spell in the SRD.

Arcane Hierophant is a PrC from Races Of The Wild that requires 2nd level arcane as well as divine casting. It advances both casting levels at every level as well as giving full animal companion and familiar progression (the two animals become one animal) and full wild shape progression, plus it lets you channel animals and plants to deliver touch spells.

The smite for this class is based on a racial feature of a race called Killoren from the same book. They are Fey with the smite ability which they can use a number of times equal to their CHA modifier. They can also choose on a day to day basis to instead have a different ability.

I also want there to be some kind of very cool ability granted at level 10, but I'm not sure what exactly it should be.

skycycle blues
2011-09-04, 12:37 PM
Here is Cipher's lovely table-making tutorial thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=205677). It shall aid you greatly.

A few general comments on class balance:
Wizard, druid, and cleric are commonly considered to be all of a feather when it comes to class power, although cleric is a (slight) notch behind the other two. However, combined druid/cleric spellcasting is less powerful than combined arcane/divine casting, because there is considerable overlap between the two casting lists. That said, it's still darn good.

Critique of your class:
Druid is a feature-rich class, and cleric domains and turning ability are generally considered pretty snazzy features as well. I would suggest that just keeping and progressing all of those neat features while progressing casting in both classes is very, very strong, without need to resort to adding new features. Looking at your feature set, I'd recommend:

Animal companion stacking with effective druid level - YES
Wild Shape - Grant, but do not stack with druid levels in any way. Simply provide the uses per day you think appropriate (should be less than a straight druid would receive). Do not grant advancements to the size or type of wild shape option.
Turn undead stacks with existing turning ability - YES
Nature's Smite - NO
Bonus domains - NO, but do stack with cleric levels to determine strength of cleric domain powers.
Twin Casting - NO


I removed the twin casting and I'm trying to figure out a good way to grant Wild Shape. But I definitely want to grant at least one bonus domain if not two, and fit the smite in.

Morph Bark
2011-09-04, 01:41 PM
Just to note: Rangers already can get wildshape, if you were not aware.

skycycle blues
2011-09-04, 01:55 PM
UA variant? Lose combat style, gain Wild Shape and fast movement.

Is that what you're referring to?

I think it's a cool variant, but I think I would still just prefer to be a Druid.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-04, 03:33 PM
The reason that Arcane Heirophant is not broken, but this class has some balance issues, is because A) Arcane Heirophants still have ASF to deal with, and B) It creates a MAD caster.

Here you are combining two spell lists that are both based on Wisdom and neither have ASF. Additionally, you have given the druid a PrC that advances Wild Shape, Animal Companion AND full casting, something that does not exist, period. The druid is the rare exception to the "Base Casters Should PrC" rule, simply because its 3 class features (Casting, AC, and WS) are too powerful to give up 2 of them to advance just one.

Meanwhile, you have the druid losing 3 caster levels (made up for with one feat), in order to give it domains, smiting, 7th level cleric spells, access to four domains, and bonus feats, and ALL it loses are: Venom Immunity, Thousand Faces and the incredibly useless Timeless Body, along with the ability to Wild Shape into plants and elementals.

I'm not saying it's not an interesting idea, I just think you need to probably really consider the balance of giving the druid all this extra power. (I would suggest removing AC or Wild Shape entirely)

skycycle blues
2011-09-04, 03:50 PM
The reason that Arcane Heirophant is not broken, but this class has some balance issues, is because A) Arcane Heirophants still have ASF to deal with, and B) It creates a MAD caster.

Here you are combining two spell lists that are both based on Wisdom and neither have ASF. Additionally, you have given the druid a PrC that advances Wild Shape, Animal Companion AND full casting, something that does not exist, period. The druid is the rare exception to the "Base Casters Should PrC" rule, simply because its 3 class features (Casting, AC, and WS) are too powerful to give up 2 of them to advance just one.

Meanwhile, you have the druid losing 3 caster levels (made up for with one feat), in order to give it domains, smiting, 7th level cleric spells, access to four domains, and bonus feats, and ALL it loses are: Venom Immunity, Thousand Faces and the incredibly useless Timeless Body, along with the ability to Wild Shape into plants and elementals.

I'm not saying it's not an interesting idea, I just think you need to probably really consider the balance of giving the druid all this extra power. (I would suggest removing AC or Wild Shape entirely)


Arcane Hierophants have no ASF in any armor that a Druid can wear. And Arcane Hierophant also gives full Animal Companion, full casting and full Wild Shape. Also, it stops being dependent on multiple attributes the second you turn into a bear and start shooting fireballs and summoning wolves. Two abilities isn't that hard.

Morph Bark
2011-09-04, 04:39 PM
Arcane Hierophants have no ASF in any armor that a Druid can wear. And Arcane Hierophant also gives full Animal Companion, full casting and full Wild Shape. Also, it stops being dependent on multiple attributes the second you turn into a bear and start shooting fireballs and summoning wolves. Two abilities isn't that hard.

If you are perfectly fine with this and your DM (if you are a player) is too, this class will be perfectly balanced.

Note of order: two abilities are multiple abilities.

jiriku
2011-09-04, 04:45 PM
Suggestion: Stop comparing the class to arcane hierophant and build it in a vacuum. Much grief has been caused in 3.5 by comparing new option X to old option Y and assuming that if X is about the same strength as Y, then X is well-balanced. No need to take that risk - judge the class on its own merits.

Now, if the intended entry is druid 3/cleric 3, I see two problems up front - first, you suck pretty hard from about character level 5 to level 7, and you're really not that great at character levels 4 and 8 either. It happens that character level 4-8 is the "sweet spot" where most gameplay occurs, so that's a really bad thing. This suggests to me that you should front-load your class features pretty heavily into levels 1-2 of your prestige class, when they'll be most sorely needed. It would also be a good idea to require some sort of prerequisite feat that enhances druid/cleric synergy and can be taken at level 3, even before a PC has both druid and cleric levels. This would help ease the pain of levels 4-6. Offhand, I can't think of any feat that fits that description other than Natural Bond, so you may need to invent a new feat.

As a ranger/paladin class, ranger/paladin spellcasting really sucks compared to druid/cleric spellcasting, and the reduced attack bonus and hit die (relative to paladin at least) just pours salt on the wound. To make this work AT ALL, you're going to need to provide benefits in the class that ONLY unlock for characters with ranger or paladin levels. I'd recommend, for example, that you should earmark the smite ability for characters with an existing "Smite Evil" class feature only. Incidentally, gaining smite bonuses for half your levels in some classes and all your levels in other classes is overly complicated. Just base the smite on character level and save the math attack.

Down the road, I see that at character level 14-16, you're pretty resoundingly superior to a straight druid or cleric, so I'd veer away from granting additional features at class levels 8, 9, or 10. The raw quantity and selection of your many spell slots and plethora of domains, smites and wild-shapes already makes you a one-man party - don't add more fuel to the fire.

skycycle blues
2011-09-04, 05:35 PM
Suggestion: Stop comparing the class to arcane hierophant and build it in a vacuum. Much grief has been caused in 3.5 by comparing new option X to old option Y and assuming that if X is about the same strength as Y, then X is well-balanced. No need to take that risk - judge the class on its own merits.

Now, if the intended entry is druid 3/cleric 3, I see two problems up front - first, you suck pretty hard from about character level 5 to level 7, and you're really not that great at character levels 4 and 8 either. It happens that character level 4-8 is the "sweet spot" where most gameplay occurs, so that's a really bad thing. This suggests to me that you should front-load your class features pretty heavily into levels 1-2 of your prestige class, when they'll be most sorely needed. It would also be a good idea to require some sort of prerequisite feat that enhances druid/cleric synergy and can be taken at level 3, even before a PC has both druid and cleric levels. This would help ease the pain of levels 4-6. Offhand, I can't think of any feat that fits that description other than Natural Bond, so you may need to invent a new feat.

As a ranger/paladin class, ranger/paladin spellcasting really sucks compared to druid/cleric spellcasting, and the reduced attack bonus and hit die (relative to paladin at least) just pours salt on the wound. To make this work AT ALL, you're going to need to provide benefits in the class that ONLY unlock for characters with ranger or paladin levels. I'd recommend, for example, that you should earmark the smite ability for characters with an existing "Smite Evil" class feature only. Incidentally, gaining smite bonuses for half your levels in some classes and all your levels in other classes is overly complicated. Just base the smite on character level and save the math attack.

Down the road, I see that at character level 14-16, you're pretty resoundingly superior to a straight druid or cleric, so I'd veer away from granting additional features at class levels 8, 9, or 10. The raw quantity and selection of your many spell slots and plethora of domains, smites and wild-shapes already makes you a one-man party - don't add more fuel to the fire.

I've changed the smite ability so that if you already have a smite ability, then for any smite that you use, you can choose either that smite or the Nature's Smite.

Alternatively, as was suggested earlier, do you think this could become more balanced by instead making it be a Druid Paladin based class rather than Druid Cleric? I don't think that any such prestige classes already exist because of the two classes alignment restrictions. I think I would raise the HD to d10, but lower the casting so that it's 10/5, keep the other abilities, but perhaps move them around level wise, and give some sort of Animal Companion/Special Mount synergy. Although I would still want the requirements to be set so that a Cleric Druid would still be good.

Ideally, I want this class to shine as a Cleric Druid, but to still be both good and fun if entering from Ranger or Paladin.

I'll add Natural Bond as a prerequisite though, seems like a good idea to me.

Halna LeGavilk
2011-09-04, 05:40 PM
Change it to at most 5/5 casting (that is to say, it advances Cleric by five and Druid by five.) Still broken? Yeah. A lot less broken though.

EDIT: If you're looking for a somewhat balanced class. If balance isn't an issue, go ahead, blast away.

skycycle blues
2011-09-04, 06:07 PM
I changed the casting so that it advances you by 10/5 (or 9/6 or 8/7 if you want to get adventurous), changed the HD from d8 to d10 and added in Special Mount synergy if coming from Paladin instead of Cleric, while, I hope, not ruining Cleric entry.

Does anybody see any problems with it as it currently is?

jiriku
2011-09-04, 09:45 PM
Huh. A druid-paladin mixer. That's...new and different. And worth doing. Full speed ahead, captain!

Dryad
2011-09-04, 09:50 PM
d10 HD is too high, 4+int skill points is also too high.

I think you want too much. You want a cleric-druid? Well; there's nature, plant and animal domains if you go Cleric (so that you already fit that bill) or you could be a lawful neutral worshipper of a deity with the Druid class, which also fits your bill.
There is no flavour reason for making a class that does both. If you want a wild-shaping cleric? You roll a druid. If you want a smiting Druid? You roll a cleric/paladin.

The problem with you wanting too much is that this class is indeed too powerful. If you look at most Prestige Classes for Divine casters, you might notice that they actually do not gain a new caster level at first level into the PrC. They gain less caster levels than a full divine caster. Many of them have only half progression.
And that is paired with a smaller HD, less skill points, and less abilities. The abilities they do gain are overall less powerful.
Let me explain that 'less powerful.'
Turn Undead can be a very powerful ability, mostly so because it can fuel other abilities (procurable by spending feats). It's an iconic Cleric ability; the only Cleric ability, in fact. Yet you give it for free to this PrC.
The Special Mount feature is phrased in such a manner that it stacks with the Animal Companion feature. Quite extraordinarily powerful; a Fighter or Barbarian would probably trade their class features just to gain that paired progression. Your animal companion would be a lot more powerful than either Fighter of Barbarian, and the sad thing is: It's your pét.
Example: Large Wolverine can serve as mount, take Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Ride By Attack. Roll a smite on that, let the Wolverine Pounce (granted through animal feats) and you have one attack that deals 3d8+(3xsmite damage)+(3x str bonus)+(3x magical modifier). At the level you can smite, you'll probably add a (3xPower Attack bonus) to that as well. If that crits, it triples the damage, and that's not even counting the three attacks from an enraged Wolverine. Both of you share your buffs, so the both of you are literally covered in buffs. And remember: That wolverine gains the benefits of both the Animal Companion and the Paladin's Mount features. Ouchies.

And this is still ignoring the fact that this character has as many spells as a bard and cleric combined; probably more. Not just that, but the spells share a casting stat, and have far more synergy than Arcane magic could ever hope for. So not only is this quite extremely powerful in terms of raw class abilities, but it also easily surpasses most Tier 1 casters, and completely trivializes those poor fighters and barbarians, who simply don't have anything going for them.

I hope this long posts helped clarify why most people have responded that it is too powerful.

skycycle blues
2011-09-04, 11:16 PM
d10 HD is too high, 4+int skill points is also too high.

I think you want too much. You want a cleric-druid? Well; there's nature, plant and animal domains if you go Cleric (so that you already fit that bill) or you could be a lawful neutral worshipper of a deity with the Druid class, which also fits your bill.
There is no flavour reason for making a class that does both. If you want a wild-shaping cleric? You roll a druid. If you want a smiting Druid? You roll a cleric/paladin.

The problem with you wanting too much is that this class is indeed too powerful. If you look at most Prestige Classes for Divine casters, you might notice that they actually do not gain a new caster level at first level into the PrC. They gain less caster levels than a full divine caster. Many of them have only half progression.
And that is paired with a smaller HD, less skill points, and less abilities. The abilities they do gain are overall less powerful.
Let me explain that 'less powerful.'
Turn Undead can be a very powerful ability, mostly so because it can fuel other abilities (procurable by spending feats). It's an iconic Cleric ability; the only Cleric ability, in fact. Yet you give it for free to this PrC.
The Special Mount feature is phrased in such a manner that it stacks with the Animal Companion feature. Quite extraordinarily powerful; a Fighter or Barbarian would probably trade their class features just to gain that paired progression. Your animal companion would be a lot more powerful than either Fighter of Barbarian, and the sad thing is: It's your pét.
Example: Large Wolverine can serve as mount, take Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge, Ride By Attack. Roll a smite on that, let the Wolverine Pounce (granted through animal feats) and you have one attack that deals 3d8+(3xsmite damage)+(3x str bonus)+(3x magical modifier). At the level you can smite, you'll probably add a (3xPower Attack bonus) to that as well. If that crits, it triples the damage, and that's not even counting the three attacks from an enraged Wolverine. Both of you share your buffs, so the both of you are literally covered in buffs. And remember: That wolverine gains the benefits of both the Animal Companion and the Paladin's Mount features. Ouchies.

And this is still ignoring the fact that this character has as many spells as a bard and cleric combined; probably more. Not just that, but the spells share a casting stat, and have far more synergy than Arcane magic could ever hope for. So not only is this quite extremely powerful in terms of raw class abilities, but it also easily surpasses most Tier 1 casters, and completely trivializes those poor fighters and barbarians, who simply don't have anything going for them.

I hope this long posts helped clarify why most people have responded that it is too powerful.

This class doesn't grant Turn Undead, it requires it. The levels stack, but that doesn't grant more Turning Attempts, it just makes it so that you can still reasonably turn some undead at later levels. The reason Turn is powerful is that you can fuel other things with it. This doesn't increase those capabilities.

I wanted to offer some sort of synergy between the Paladin feature and the Druid feature and I'm not sure specifically how to do it. As written, your example does not seem significantly more powerful than what a Paladin could do on a charge, or a Druid if they felt so inclined to take those feats. If you could be more specific about the problem there, please let me know.

Animal companions are generally considered to be about as strong as Fighters, so I think that a Special Mount/ Animal Companion ought to be able to take on a Barbarian.

It has more spells over all than a similar leveled Cleric or Druid, but it also is behind both by at least a full spell level, which is important, because spell levels are designed so that a single spell of one level is supposed to be more powerful than two spells of the next lower level. That's why Wizards will do anything they can to avoid losing caster levels and why Mystic Theurge is generally considered bad, unless you can sneak in early somehow. If you enter this class at Druid 3, Cleric 3, then at level 16 character, you can cast as a level 13 Druid, level 8 Cleric. So level 7 Druid spells and level 4 Cleric spells. Contrast that with a level 16 Druid, who has significantly more powerful Wild Shape(elementals, plants, tiny things and huge things), as well as level 8 spells, which are much more powerful than Cleric 0-4 spells.

Both Cleric and Druid have 4+int skill points, so this is going to keep that. They both also have d8 HD. This initially had d8, but I upped it to d10 to try to give Paladins more incentive. I could drop it back to d8, and I feel that if the Mount/Companion synergy is good enough, that and the smiting should be enough incentive.

NeoSeraphi
2011-09-05, 12:44 AM
Both Cleric and Druid have 4+int skill points

The SRD disagrees with you. Clerics, like all other full spellcasters in the PHB save druids, have 2+Int skill points.

Dryad
2011-09-05, 05:17 AM
Animal companions are generally considered to be about as strong as Fighters,
And this is a huge flaw in their design.

so I think that a Special Mount/ Animal Companion ought to be able to take on a Barbarian.
No. No, just no. Never. Nuh-uh. I wonder: How can you even say such a thing?
'I have a class feature where the original trivializes one character. Since my class should be better than the original feature's class, this feature should trivialize TWO complete characters.' Hell; toss in some feats from BoED, and your mount/companion will have Smite Evil as well, and some other nifty things, more or less trivializing the Paladin class as well.


I think that a Special Mount/ Animal Companion ought to be able to take on a Barbarian.
It's a class feature. It's like saying a familiar should be able to take on a barbarian. It's like saying a Rogue's sneak attack should be able to detach itself from the paper and kill a barbarian all by itself.

This is a Mount at entry (lvl 3 druid, lvl 5 paladin, lvl 1 Blessed).

Warhorse, Heavy
Size/Type:
Large Animal

Hit Dice:
8d8+32 (64 hp)
Initiative:
+2
Speed:
50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class:
21 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +10 natural,), touch 10, flat-footed 19

Base Attack/Grapple:
+6/+15
Attack:
Hoof +11 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack:
2 hooves +11 melee (1d6+5) and bite +9 melee (1d4+2)

Space/Reach:
10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:

Special Qualities:
Low-light vision, scent, Empathic Link, Share Spells, Share Saving Throws, Evasion
Saves:
Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +6
Abilities:
Str 20, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills:
Listen +5, Spot +4, Swim +8, Jump +8 (skills aren't correctly filled)

Feats:
Endurance, Run, Multiattack
Not too bad, you might think, but also consider that this is naked. No gear, no spells. Completely naked. I'd say that's not extremely bad for a naked lvl 9 barbarian/fighter.
Now look at this creature when we're three levels into your prestige class.
Warhorse, Heavy
Size/Type:
Large Animal

Hit Dice:
12d8+48 (96 hp)
Initiative:
+2
Speed:
60 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class:
25 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +14 natural,), touch 10, flat-footed 23

Base Attack/Grapple:
+9/+19
Attack:
Hoof +15 melee (1d6+6) (+1 damage versus evil, or +1d4 versus Evil Outsiders)
Bite +15 (1d4+3) (+1 damage versus evil, or +1d4 versus Evil Outsiders)
Full Attack:
2 hooves +15 melee (1d6+6) and bite +15 melee (1d4+3)

Space/Reach:
10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:

Special Qualities:
Low-light vision, scent, Empathic Link, Share Spells, Share Saving Throws, Evasion, Devotion, Improved Speed
Saves:
Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +8
Abilities:
Str 22, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills:
Listen +5, Spot +4, Swim +8, Jump +8

Feats:
Endurance, Run, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Sanctified Natural Attack.
Again; fully naked. Merely an example, though.

With even a meagre outfit (and some player feats), you could get:
Warhorse, Heavy
Size/Type:
Large Animal (Celestial)

Hit Dice:
12d8+72 (120 hp)
Initiative:
+2
Speed:
90 ft. (18 squares)
Armor Class:
34 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +17 natural, +6 Armour,), touch 11, flat-footed 32

Base Attack/Grapple:
+9/+21
Attack:
Hoof +20 melee (1d6+11) (+1 damage versus evil, or +1d4 versus Evil Outsiders)
Bite +20 (1d4+7) (+1 damage versus evil, or +1d4 versus Evil Outsiders)
Full Attack:
2 hooves +20 melee (1d6+11) and bite +20 melee (1d4+7)

Space/Reach:
10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:
1/day Smite Evil (+12 damage on a single attack).
Special Qualities:
Low-light vision, scent, Empathic Link, Share Spells, Share Saving Throws, Evasion, Devotion, Improved Speed, Spell Resistance 17, Resist Acid, Cold, Electricity 10, DR 10/magic
Saves:
Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +8
Abilities:
Str 26, Dex 15, Con 22, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills:
Listen +5, Spot +4, Swim +8, Jump +8

Feats:
Endurance, Run, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Sanctified Natural Attack

Equipment: Studded Leather (+3), Amulet of Mighty Fists +3 Horseshoes of Speed, Belt of Giant Strength (+4)
Spells active:
Barkskin
Bear's Endurance
Now; the above Animal Companion/mount isn't optimized in the least. For one, the bizarre amount of bonus tricks allow the Celestial Heavy Warhorse to have more than enough tricks for Combat Training, allowing it to wear Heavy Barding (instead of the studded leather I used above). There's also a very limited amount of books I used to create this thing, so as you can imagine, there's a lot more material out there to make this thing a lot more powerful. And I didn't even count things like the Permanency spell.

skycycle blues
2011-09-05, 08:58 AM
And this is a huge flaw in their design.

No. No, just no. Never. Nuh-uh. I wonder: How can you even say such a thing?
'I have a class feature where the original trivializes one character. Since my class should be better than the original feature's class, this feature should trivialize TWO complete characters.' Hell; toss in some feats from BoED, and your mount/companion will have Smite Evil as well, and some other nifty things, more or less trivializing the Paladin class as well.


It's a class feature. It's like saying a familiar should be able to take on a barbarian. It's like saying a Rogue's sneak attack should be able to detach itself from the paper and kill a barbarian all by itself.

This is a Mount at entry (lvl 3 druid, lvl 5 paladin, lvl 1 Blessed).

Warhorse, Heavy
Size/Type:
Large Animal

Hit Dice:
8d8+32 (64 hp)
Initiative:
+2
Speed:
50 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class:
21 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +10 natural,), touch 10, flat-footed 19

Base Attack/Grapple:
+6/+15
Attack:
Hoof +11 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack:
2 hooves +11 melee (1d6+5) and bite +9 melee (1d4+2)

Space/Reach:
10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:

Special Qualities:
Low-light vision, scent, Empathic Link, Share Spells, Share Saving Throws, Evasion
Saves:
Fort +9, Ref +7, Will +6
Abilities:
Str 20, Dex 14, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills:
Listen +5, Spot +4, Swim +8, Jump +8 (skills aren't correctly filled)

Feats:
Endurance, Run, Multiattack
Not too bad, you might think, but also consider that this is naked. No gear, no spells. Completely naked. I'd say that's not extremely bad for a naked lvl 9 barbarian/fighter.
Now look at this creature when we're three levels into your prestige class.
Warhorse, Heavy
Size/Type:
Large Animal

Hit Dice:
12d8+48 (96 hp)
Initiative:
+2
Speed:
60 ft. (10 squares)
Armor Class:
25 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +14 natural,), touch 10, flat-footed 23

Base Attack/Grapple:
+9/+19
Attack:
Hoof +15 melee (1d6+6) (+1 damage versus evil, or +1d4 versus Evil Outsiders)
Bite +15 (1d4+3) (+1 damage versus evil, or +1d4 versus Evil Outsiders)
Full Attack:
2 hooves +15 melee (1d6+6) and bite +15 melee (1d4+3)

Space/Reach:
10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:

Special Qualities:
Low-light vision, scent, Empathic Link, Share Spells, Share Saving Throws, Evasion, Devotion, Improved Speed
Saves:
Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +8
Abilities:
Str 22, Dex 15, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills:
Listen +5, Spot +4, Swim +8, Jump +8

Feats:
Endurance, Run, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Sanctified Natural Attack.
Again; fully naked. Merely an example, though.

With even a meagre outfit (and some player feats), you could get:
Warhorse, Heavy
Size/Type:
Large Animal (Celestial)

Hit Dice:
12d8+72 (120 hp)
Initiative:
+2
Speed:
90 ft. (18 squares)
Armor Class:
34 (-1 size, +2 Dex, +17 natural, +6 Armour,), touch 11, flat-footed 32

Base Attack/Grapple:
+9/+21
Attack:
Hoof +20 melee (1d6+11) (+1 damage versus evil, or +1d4 versus Evil Outsiders)
Bite +20 (1d4+7) (+1 damage versus evil, or +1d4 versus Evil Outsiders)
Full Attack:
2 hooves +20 melee (1d6+11) and bite +20 melee (1d4+7)

Space/Reach:
10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:
1/day Smite Evil (+12 damage on a single attack).
Special Qualities:
Low-light vision, scent, Empathic Link, Share Spells, Share Saving Throws, Evasion, Devotion, Improved Speed, Spell Resistance 17, Resist Acid, Cold, Electricity 10, DR 10/magic
Saves:
Fort +11, Ref +8, Will +8
Abilities:
Str 26, Dex 15, Con 22, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 6
Skills:
Listen +5, Spot +4, Swim +8, Jump +8

Feats:
Endurance, Run, Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Sanctified Natural Attack

Equipment: Studded Leather (+3), Amulet of Mighty Fists +3 Horseshoes of Speed, Belt of Giant Strength (+4)
Spells active:
Barkskin
Bear's Endurance
Now; the above Animal Companion/mount isn't optimized in the least. For one, the bizarre amount of bonus tricks allow the Celestial Heavy Warhorse to have more than enough tricks for Combat Training, allowing it to wear Heavy Barding (instead of the studded leather I used above). There's also a very limited amount of books I used to create this thing, so as you can imagine, there's a lot more material out there to make this thing a lot more powerful. And I didn't even count things like the Permanency spell.


Do you have any suggestions on how to make the Mount/Companion synergy more balanced?

Dryad
2011-09-05, 09:39 AM
You could give the possibility for mounts to follow the Animal Companion progression instead of the Mount progression, or vice versa. That, or they can simply pick what progression they'll follow: Mount or Companion. And also pick which prerequisite they need to fulfill: Mount or Companion. Granted, that would mean a full paladin could (potentially) enter the class, but with so little skill points, they probably won't get the prereqs anyway, and the spell progression is completely wasted on paladins in any case.
All in all, I don't think there should be too much synergy between Paladin and Druid, here.
The alignments don't match; either one class-oath has to be broken before you can enter the class. The minimum level of entering is 7 (three minimum Druid levels for the skills and animal companion, rest for Turn and the 9 ranks of concentration total). Paladins get Turn Undead at lvl 4, Mount at 5, and get only 2+int skill points; not enough to fill the prerequisite skills (some cross class) even with intelligence 16+. Meaning that Paladins can enter this prestige class at a minimum of level 8. (4 for Turn Undead, 3 for skills). At which level they do not yet have a mount. So they should go for paladin 5 and druid 3, then take this prestige class, losing valuable caster levels in the process.
Sure; you'll still be two fighters with spells and more, but the synergy is rickety, and prone to abuse. Also, I honestly don't understand it. A Paladin of the Wild could just be a Druid with a Warhorse as Animal Companion, after all.

I still think that's the real issue of this class. You don't just want the féél of two classes (or more); you want all of their abilities, as well.
That's what gestalt games are for.

skycycle blues
2011-09-05, 10:04 AM
I changed the requirement to be either Animal Companion or Special Mount and changed the way it progresses.

I think the flavor is cool. A Druid or Paladin breaks their alignment but not their devotion, and in turn is rewarded.

paddyfool
2011-09-05, 11:32 AM
I think you want too much. You want a cleric-druid? Well; there's nature, plant and animal domains if you go Cleric (so that you already fit that bill) or you could be a lawful neutral worshipper of a deity with the Druid class, which also fits your bill.
There is no flavour reason for making a class that does both. If you want a wild-shaping cleric? You roll a druid. If you want a smiting Druid? You roll a cleric/paladin.

This. Actually, I'd quite like to play a Cleric/Prestige Paladin with naturalistic domains, especially if any of them granted the appropriate skills.

Another option, which I honestly think might be better for a halfway house between the Cleric and the Druid, or between the Paladin and the Druid, would be to homebrew some ACFs rather than a dual progression prestige class, especially one that tries to fill as many different niches as this one. With an alternative class feature, you're simply offering a player a trade of an equal or weaker class ability for an existing class ability, and can generally avoid too much abuse.

Examples of such ACFs might be as follows:

Scriptured Druid: You follow a deity in addition to knowing the lore of nature. Gain access to the Cleric spell list in addition to the Druid spell list; in return, you know one less spell of the third-highest level spells you know, minimum 0. (Level 9 if epic; poor trade on the whole).

Domain Druid: Get one nature-themed cleric domain, complete with domain spells in return for your Animal Companion. (Poor trade for the player, but many groups dislike the Animal Companion anyway).

Smiting Druid: Gain the Nature's Smite ability (as this class, progression as Paladin); in return, you know one less spell of the third-highest level spells you know, minimum 0. (Level 8 if epic; fair trade at low levels, tending to poor at high).

etc.

jiriku
2011-09-05, 12:50 PM
I changed the requirement to be either Animal Companion or Special Mount and changed the way it progresses.

I think the flavor is cool. A Druid or Paladin breaks their alignment but not their devotion, and in turn is rewarded.

I agree. Druids and paladins are both flavorful, interesting classes. A druid/paladin mix has potential.

A couple of other possibilities:
Rather than having an intended dual-class entry and dual spell progression, make this a single class-entry that expands one progression (sort of like Rainbow Servant, which grants cleric domains and the cleric spell list, but neither require cleric levels nor advances cleric casting if you're a noncleric).

So for example, a druid-entry class could gain access to the paladin spell list, but would prepare paladin spells in a slot one level higher (so holy sword goes in a 5th-level slot, for example). It would gain natural smiting and would lose its animal companion in favor of a special mount (which would progress according to character level, rather than class level). It would gain additional uses of wild shape, but not additional sizes or creature types.
Alternately, you could design a paladin-entry class that would gain access to the druid+paladin spell list and advanced spell slots (sort of a druidic version of sublime chord). It would convert its pally smites into natural smites and continue to gain smite progression. It would lose its special mount in favor of an animal companion. It would gain wild shape at a basic level (like a 5th level druid), and additional wild shapes per day as it advanced, but would not gain additional sizes or creature types.


Because you have a single-class entry, you don't have to deal with the complexities of breaking alignment strictures or oaths, and you don't have to deal with the "zone of suck" effect that occurs when primary casters start taking levels in a class that doesn't progress casting in order to qualify for a prestige class. Avoiding these pitfalls is a considerable benefit.

skycycle blues
2011-09-05, 01:17 PM
I agree. Druids and paladins are both flavorful, interesting classes. A druid/paladin mix has potential.

A couple of other possibilities:
Rather than having an intended dual-class entry and dual spell progression, make this a single class-entry that expands one progression (sort of like Rainbow Servant, which grants cleric domains and the cleric spell list, but neither require cleric levels nor advances cleric casting if you're a noncleric).

So for example, a druid-entry class could gain access to the paladin spell list, but would prepare paladin spells in a slot one level higher (so holy sword goes in a 5th-level slot, for example). It would gain natural smiting and would lose its animal companion in favor of a special mount (which would progress according to character level, rather than class level). It would gain additional uses of wild shape, but not additional sizes or creature types.
Alternately, you could design a paladin-entry class that would gain access to the druid+paladin spell list and advanced spell slots (sort of a druidic version of sublime chord). It would convert its pally smites into natural smites and continue to gain smite progression. It would lose its special mount in favor of an animal companion. It would gain wild shape at a basic level (like a 5th level druid), and additional wild shapes per day as it advanced, but would not gain additional sizes or creature types.


Because you have a single-class entry, you don't have to deal with the complexities of breaking alignment strictures or oaths, and you don't have to deal with the "zone of suck" effect that occurs when primary casters start taking levels in a class that doesn't progress casting in order to qualify for a prestige class. Avoiding these pitfalls is a considerable benefit.

I like the way you think. I might try to design something like both of those and if I do, I will post them here.