Killing a high AC monk!

[Elvencloud]

So a buddy of mine is currently playing an evil game where half the party are vampires (yes, the stupidly bad ones) and the other half are werecreatures.
Here's the problem.

The PK's have started. They just killed two of the other characters that disagreed with their ways, and my buddy is playing a druid wererat (Druid 9, wererat 3) and wants some insurance that he's going to live.

His main threat? A werebat monk that has an AC of 42, and ridiculous saves.
He feels this character is going to come after him soon, so he wants to know...
What spells and the like could help him?

(Note- we don't know the breakdown exactly of her ac. She's very secretive of her character stats. Always.)

[skycycle blues]

My first thought, pay a high level wizard for some power word kill.

What level is this Monk? And you should figure out the exact AC breakdown. Also, you should catch her flat footed.

[Elvencloud]

She's about 9, plus a couple werebat levels.
She freaks out whenever you try to figure out things on her sheet. We only know her AC because of to hit rolls against her.
We know she has a ring of prot, amulet of natural armor, and a really high dex (werebat helps).

[skycycle blues]

Assuming she started with 16 Dex and 16 Wisdom and she has 130,000 gold(which she should not).

Dex 16 (+3)
Wisdom 16 (+3)
Adding two ability points to Dex (+1)
+2 Wisdom from Were (+1)
Ring Of Protection (+3)
Amulet of Natural Armor (+3)
Level 9 Monk (+1)
Monk's Belt (+1)
Natural Armor from Were (+2)
In Bat form (+4)
Gloves of Dex +6 (+3)
Periapt of Wisdom +6 (+3)

All of this would give her (when in bat form) a 37 AC, 32 Touch, 30 Flatfooted, 26 Touch Flatfooted.

If she instead has 200,000 gold she could have Ring and Amulet +5 instead, which would make her 41, 34, 34, 28.

If she has Dodge, I guess that gets her to 42, 35, 34, 28 and that's assuming I did my math right and all of those bonuses stack and affect her while in bat form. But she's also cheating or the DM has given her waaaaaaaaay too much gold.

[rockdeworld]

Well, my first thought is "Ice Storm!" But this really isn't my area of expertise, so I suppose I can't comment.

I am also wondering how a 12-th level monk has an AC of 42. I'm assuming it's a little min-maxed. Did you say a werebat, as in a creature that turns into a bat, much like a vampire does?

Either way Lycanthropes typically have +2 Wis and +2 Nat. Armor. That AC could be:
10 (normal)
+4 (Dex 16 + 2 levels)
+4 (Wis 16 + 2 lycanthrope)
+2 (10th level Monk before LA) Just read your post.
+2 (Ring of prot +2)
+2 (Amulet of Nat. Armor)
+2 (Gloves of Dex +4)
...and I've got nothin else I can think of, sorry :smallfrown:

Another option is just to die and make a wizard (jk!)

The only combo I can think of off the top of my head is Dispel Magic at whatever important magical item she has that buffs saves, followed by Baleful Polymorph.

[Telonius]

What sources are available, is this natural or afflicted lycanthropy, and any ideas about the feat selection of the Monk?

I'm a little confused as to why this character poses a threat. What damage is it doing? I'm assuming this Monk is mostly in humanoid form? Shapechanged form would be practically impossible to do any real amount of damage, even with improved unarmed strike. Diminutive would be doing a max of 1hp per hit. Is it doing status ailments?

It sounds like the character has been really pumping Dexterity. Given the base animal, Dex sounds like it's the best thing to begin with. Build-wise, I'd be shocked if they haven't spent a feat on Weapon Finesse. Don't bother with any spells that have reflex saves. But that also means that any time the character is denied dex to AC, they're kind of screwed.

Unfortunately some of the best spells in this situation are on the Wizard's list. Invisibility works well here; so will Celerity (when the Monk wins AC, since the Dex is through the roof). Spells that don't require saves are good. So are spells that make it annoying even when you do save. Black Tentacles and Web are good choices.

On the Druid list, Entangle or Spike Growth are your first choices if he's on the ground. Gust of Wind or Wind Wall, if he's flying. Call in a flock of helpers if you get in real trouble. Anything with Swallow Whole would be particularly good if he's in bat form. But really, you're a Druid with an animal companion and (presumably) Natural Spell. No Monk should be posing any sort of a threat to you.

EDIT:
She's about 9, plus a couple werebat levels.
She freaks out whenever you try to figure out things on her sheet. We only know her AC because of to hit rolls against her.
We know she has a ring of prot, amulet of natural armor, and a really high dex (werebat helps).

This really sounds like a matter to bring up with the DM. Freaking out about that makes me awfully suspicious. Any DM has the right to look at a person's character sheet. If the numbers aren't legit, the DM needs to take action to make them legit. If it's a simple math error, fine, fix it, and move forward. But having one (possibly) illegally-powerful character is unfair to everybody.

If this is a "DM's girlfriend" situation, you have my condolences.

[Hecuba]

Actually killing her will be somewhat difficult if she isn't dead set on a fight.

You can however, make it into a retreat or die situation.
Go to town with some locust swarms: she's a monk and they're immune to weapon damage. Unless she has fire handy, she can't actually damage them. Toss on stone skin and invisability to animals. Choose a Wild Shape with High AC, stand in the insects, and wait him out.

[hex0]

Monk's Belt?

[skycycle blues]

Monk's Belt?

Only adds 1 point.

[Jack_Simth]

His main threat? A werebat monk that has an AC of 42, and ridiculous saves.
He feels this character is going to come after him soon, so he wants to know...
What spells and the like could help him?Let's see... you have up to 5th level Druid spells. That is:
Wall of Thorns (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfThorns.htm) (no save, no SR, no AC (although AC mitigates a few things on it a bit), just be stuck, nasty strength check to be able to move a square or two as a *full round action*).
Summon Swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonSwarm.htm): No save, No SR, no AC: Flat, low level damage for as long as you concentrate.

Oh yes: And you can travel through the Wall of Thorns no problem, as it doesn't impede anyone who can travel safely through underbrush, which you get.

[The Underlord]

You know, you would think Druid vs Monk would be easy. I would recommend coup de graceing them in their sleep(while wildshpae and do it simeltaneously with your AC by readying an action), followed by multiple Wall of fire (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfFire.htm)(or anyother no save spells). Im curious on how they got 42 AC on a level 9 monk.

[SowZ]

You know, you would think Druid vs Monk would be easy. I would recommend coup de graceing them in their sleep(while wildshpae and do it simeltaneously with your AC by readying an action), followed by multiple snare traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/snare.htm)(or anyother no save spells). Im curious on how they got 42 AC on a level 9 monk.

I'm betting it does not follow the rules.

[mint]

Its hard to say without knowing more about the build.
The ways I know to get AC that good involve a lot of dipping different classes.
I'd start scrying and divining the crap out of her to see what she is wearing and what she is capable of. Keep doing it until you have a good idea of her capabilities. Your mobility should be superior with wildshape and the stride suite of spells.

[Zaq]

If you can land a single touch attack, grapple them. You're a Druid. If you put your mind to it, nobody can outgrapple you, aside from maybe a Totemist. And I'm betting that this Monk doesn't have too much STR, or else the cheating's worse than I thought. Just pop your biggest Bite of the Werewhatever spell, turn into the biggest thing you can, make a single touch attack, and bear hug them.

[OrzhvoPatriarch]

Attack him with a Rust Monster wizard that makes him take his weak saves!.....wait a minute.

[Greenish]

...and I've got nothin else I can think of, sorry :smallfrown:Bats are diminutive: +4.

[Bayar]

Use quill blast when he is not shapeshifted. Multiple times.

[Kris Strife]

Macross Magic Missile Massacre. :smalltongue:

[The Underlord]

Macross Magic Missile Massacre. :smalltongue:

From a druid?

[Talonblaze]

That AC for the monk, is it situational for her AC to be so high? Like, using feats like Combat Expertise or taking full defense actions or so on?

Never seen a Monk with such a high AC so early on.
The DM was supposed to look at the sheets anyways to validate them being legal or at least properly calculated. It happens from time to time after all.

If it is, sounds like a curious defensive build. But plenty of ways to knock that down a peg or two. It's a Monk, nothing godly.

[Kris Strife]

From a druid?

There's got to be some what of doing this. :smalltongue:

[The Underlord]

There's got to be some what of doing this. :smalltongue:

You could do it with UMD and a wand or two of magic missles.

[Cerlis]

rats are also diminutive but you dont turn into one. you turn into a direrat. she should turn into a direbat. In building a Lycanthrope i believe it says you cant have a form of lycanthropy if you are more than one size away from the base animal. Hence dire rat/bat.



and yes, you have spells, If things are heating up take the first move and cast wall of thorns on her and go from there.

[awa]

if she turns into a dire bat thats +12 dex and +7 natural armor
a regular bat has inferior stats

edit does she have custom magic items

a +1 luck, +1 profane, +1 morale, +1 deformity, +1 holy item of ac
is only 10,000 gp much cheaper than a +5 ring of protection
edit 2
also bracers of natural armor
or a continuous magic item of mage armor

their is a dodge feat alternative I think that gives +2 ac if you move far enough

[Hirax]

I'd be wary of grappling, with that much dex this monk might be able to do use escape artist checks to continue wriggling free. Direct damage spells are the way to go.

[Jack_Simth]

I'd be wary of grappling, with that much dex this monk might be able to do use escape artist checks to continue wriggling free. Direct damage spells are the way to go.
Nah, Combat Control. Wall of Thorns is the go-to denial spell for Druids. Wall of Thorns on someone who doesn't have Freedom of Movement or teleportation, and they're pretty much stuck (You must beat DC 20 by five in order to move five feet... which means a Strength score of 20 to move on a natural 20 on the roll).

[Mikka]

Turn into something huge, boost your strength and grapple the bat to death : )

Can't hit her?.. blurstrike/blurring weapon. Its +1 or +2. A worthy investment.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Okay, this is super convoluted and needlessly complex, but bear with me.

Step 1: Lure the monk into a well-like enclosure made of stone (Oh no. I dropped my super expensive magic item down there. Could you grab it for me?). Using summoned animals to grapple her and force her down there may work better.
Step 2: Make sure she stays down there with wall of thorns.
(Optional): If there is no water in said enclosure, cast create water.
Step 3: Cast control water to raise the water level until she's having difficulty breathing.
Step 4: Seal her in with stone shape. Wait for drowning rules to kick in.
Step 5: Celebrate.

[faceroll]

Couldn't she have dipped a couple PrC to double up on stats to AC? 42 seems high, but it's certainly not outside the realm of optimization.

Just put her in a wall of thorns or 3, and layer walls of fire in them. It takes 100 rounds (10 minutes) for the magical fire to burn through. 100 rounds of 2d6+9 fire damage should kill her, even if only an average of 1 point gets through a round.

[jiriku]

Drowning is the way to go. If you have Spell Compendium, summon elementite swarm will summon a swam of water elementites. You can summon them right on top of her, and she immediately has to make a Constitution check every round or drown. Wall of thorns + summon elementite swarm is pretty much a guaranteed kill.

[DarkestKnight]

if you are looking for effectively life insurance, dominate or geas the monk when she's asleep. if there is anything 3.5 has taught me its that unconscious counts as willing.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Drowning is the way to go. If you have Spell Compendium, summon elementite swarm will summon a swam of water elementites. You can summon them right on top of her, and she immediately has to make a Constitution check every round or drown. Wall of thorns + summon elementite swarm is pretty much a guaranteed kill.

Yeah, but my way is so much more dastardly-villain-ous than yours. With my way, you can go on about how doomed the monk is and explain each step in painful detail as you carry it out. The two or three rounds that your way would take is hardly enough time for a good monologue.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wait, a druid is worried about a monk? Truly, this is the day to end all days...

Entangle and laugh. Even if he makes the save, he's still entangled.

Second, what pet do you have? By now, you should have a Fleshraker. Venomfire is a lot of fun. You can also stat-stack your pet to help him hit even such an obnoxiously high AC.

Here's another fun protip: If you don't have five or more ranks in Balance, you are denied dex bonus to AC when forced to make a Balance check. Like, say, Marbles. In fact, Marbles + Entangle = good times. It's a pretty serious hit to her AC.

Plant Growth (overgrowth option) is also a very fun way to lock said monk down.

Also, AC that high sounds suspiciously like a Giacomo Monk, so try slapping it with a Dispel Magic and see what partially-charged wand effects vanish.

But basically, Entangle + Marbles + Ice Storm = no save, no SR, just die now kkthxbai.

[Weezer]

if you are looking for effectively life insurance, dominate or geas the monk when she's asleep. if there is anything 3.5 has taught me its that unconscious counts as willing.

That last phrase would be rather ...bad... if read out of context.

[Kenneth]

Wait, a druid is worried about a monk? Truly, this is the day to end all days....

I have to agree with that.. how is a druid scared of a monk? just really do anything a druid can do to kill the monk. change into a velicoraptor and do crazy raport things. WHILE being able to cast druid spells like entangle and such.

[Ursus the Grim]

I'd be wary of grappling, with that much dex this monk might be able to do use escape artist checks to continue wriggling free. Direct damage spells are the way to go.

I dunno. I doubt a Monk would put ranks into Escape Artist, considering they're one of the few classes geared towards grappling. The Werebat hd don't have many skill points, and Intelligence is generally the second choice for a Monk dump stat.

In order to get the most to her AC, she'd probably shape into Dire Bat, which actually works in your favor.

I strongly suggest the Cave Tyrannosaurus if she's actually a standard bat somehow, or a base small race. Bite and swallow her, then proceed to natural spell all you want while she struggles to escape.

If she tries to stay away, a Dire Lion might be a good idea. Charge, pounce. Or a fleshraker, allowing you to charge and grapple, and deal poison damage. She's not immune to poisons yet, and the multiple d6s of Dex will cut her defenses down eventually. Remember that you retain your base attack bonus while shape'd so you aren't terribly bad off.

Don't neglect your pets either.
You can summon a janni to enlarge you if you choose to grapple.
You can summon a giant constrictor to grapple for you.
You can cast Animal Growth on your grappler pet, giving it a net +8 to its grapple check. High AC or no, a Gargantuan Giant Constrictor with +31 Grapple is going to give the monk some issues, and will deal some 2d6+16 damage each turn while you can just sit back and relax.

I don't think its an issue. It sounds from your OP like you're afraid she'll attack you. This means she is the aggressor. She will have to get close to 'win', at which point you have the edge. You have the edge if she stays away, because you have many potent spells and she has pretty much nothing.

Drowning+Wall of Thorns works too, as suggested, but is pretty situational and a little more likely to upset people involved.

Edit:

Yeah, but my way is so much more dastardly-villain-ous than yours. With my way, you can go on about how doomed the monk is and explain each step in painful detail as you carry it out. The two or three rounds that your way would take is hardly enough time for a good monologue.

Talking is a free action. Take all the time you want with your bond villain-esque monologue.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have to agree with that.. how is a druid scared of a monk? just really do anything a druid can do to kill the monk. change into a velicoraptor and do crazy raport things. WHILE being able to cast druid spells like entangle and such.

AC 42 is going to be tough to penetrate, though. I'd rather go for a Large Bear and Grapple. Energy Resistance and Freedom of Movement will offset the things that are hurting the monk in the area.

[Ursus the Grim]

I figure I'd take a shot at number crunching the Monk while I'm at it, using the worst-case munchkin scenario.

Base stats of 18 in Wis and Dex.
Halfling Base race.
Werebat, +12 Dex.
+2 to Dex from levelling.
Unmodified stats at Wis 20, Dex 34.

+6 Gloves of Dexterity 36,000
+6 Periapt of Wisdom 36,000
+5 Ammy of Natural Armor 50,000
+5 Ring of Protection 50,000
+8 Bracers of Armor 64,000
Monk's Belt 13,000
+7 Natural when in Hybrid form
-1 size, assuming Hybrid

This gives us a grand total of +8 from Wis, +15 from Dex, +12 from Natural, +8 Armor, +5 Deflection, -1 size.

That's a grand total of 57. However, this assumes a lot of cheese and flat-out cheating, for instance, a small base creature with a large animal, and overlapping magic slots. Also, of course, using 249,000 gp. So its clear she isn't being a complete cheater, but she obviously knows some basic optimization.

I mostly did that on route to figure out her possible/likely Escape Artist/grapple check. Escape artist is her best chance at getting out of a grapple. Assuming she put max ranks in, she should have a total of 12, and a boost of +15 from dex. That puts her at +27 under optimal circumstances, a number that shouldn't be hard to beat.

[Eldariel]

How does a Druid kill a high AC targets that won't fail saves? Well, option 1:
1) Pump your own stats to sufficient heights to hit the target and be hard to hit. +30 by level 12 would be doable but as he's only Druid 9, it makes life a bit harder.

We have Base Attack Bonus 8 (3 Animal HD for 2 BAB and 9 Druid HD for 6 BAB)
Wildshape into Polar Bear: 27 Strength, 13 Dex, 19 Con, 5 Natural Armor (Large so -1 to hit)
Greater Magic Fang on all your natural weapons: +2 per attack. (Wildshape and Greater Magic Fang last hours/level so they might as well be up all day)
Take action to cast Bite of the Weretiger: +12 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +6 Constitution (and +5 NA and some natural weapons)

This gets us a composite 39 Strength, which equals to +14 to hit. So +23 on our two primaries counting BAB and enhancement. Certainly ways away from "good enough". If he flies, you have Air Walk which is again 10 min/level; should be able to keep it up. And defensively you definitely need to keep Barkskin up. If you can get to Grapple him, you should have him. If you can hit his touch AC with +23 and just have Improved Grapple, you could probably kick his butt. Tripping would also help a ton; -4 to his AC. So if you have feats for that, again, use that. Your Grapple-check would be like +26 and you have +18 on trips without any help (Improved X for 4 more).

For pure brawling, you'd need ~ +7 more from some source. I can't think of any readily available buffs off the top of my head aside from basic combat options like flanking and tripping. There are some, to be sure, but I'd have to dig up some to find any. Oh, Blinding Spittle (level 2 spell, Ranged Touch Attack, no save) blinds him which denies him Dex to AC and gives you +2 on attacks against him. That would do it. Of course, you'd need to land the Touch Attack first. His Touch AC is a big questionmark in both, combat maneuvers and the spell.


Don't be afraid to use Dispel Magic. Chances are any magic items he has can be easily suppressed. If you have Rod of Chain Spell (obviously need Humanoid form for that) you could prolly suppress all his items long enough to beat him. Something to consider anyways.

[TehLivingDeath]

I have to agree with that.. how is a druid scared of a monk? just really do anything a druid can do to kill the monk. change into a velicoraptor and do crazy raport things. WHILE being able to cast druid spells like entangle and such.

One thing that's being overlooked here is the Monk's ability to kill the Druid. Optimizing a Monk's AC usually comes down to that, people will have a hard time killing you but you'll have an even harder time killing them. The Druid could certainly buff his AC to levels the Monk can't possibly hope to overcome. Remember that one of the main critiques against the Monk is it's low attack bonus.

Without the advice given here the fight would probably turn out into a stalemate, so being uncapable of reliably killing the Monk in the 1st round isn't that big of a deal.

[Vangor]

Bite of the weretiger (SpC), Smilodon (FB), Great & Small (CChamp) into huge size. Should grant almost +30 grapple checks and has rake.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Drowning+Wall of Thorns works too, as suggested, but is pretty situational and a little more likely to upset people involved.

Edit:


Talking is a free action. Take all the time you want with your bond villain-esque monologue.

True, but the credibility of the situation is stretched if you spout off a two-minute speech say that it was all done in the equivalent of 18 seconds.

And now I want to make a villain that uses Delay Spell way too much, just because "there is no possible way the PCs can escape."

[Fox Box Socks]

All of that investment in Dex/AC means her Fortitude is most likely piss poor.

Pay a Wizard to hit her with Flesh To Stone.

[Eldariel]

All of that investment in Dex/AC means her Fortitude is most likely piss poor.

Pay a Wizard to hit her with Flesh To Stone.

...Druid can cast Baleful Polymorph. Cut the middle man.

[NecroRick]

Assuming she started with 16 Dex and 16 Wisdom and she has 130,000 gold(which she should not).

Dex 16 (+3)
Wisdom 16 (+3)
Adding two ability points to Dex (+1)
+2 Wisdom from Were (+1)
Ring Of Protection (+3)
Amulet of Natural Armor (+3)
Level 9 Monk (+1)
Monk's Belt (+1)
Natural Armor from Were (+2)
In Bat form (+4)
Gloves of Dex +6 (+3)
Periapt of Wisdom +6 (+3)

All of this would give her (when in bat form) a 37 AC, 32 Touch, 30 Flatfooted, 26 Touch Flatfooted.


There's no reason the stats couldn't be a little bit higher.

In any case, I have recently learned that it may be possible to take an item that provides an armour bonus, and then enchant it further? So maybe magical clothing cheese, or bracers of armour, or magical vestment liberally slapped around would push her up to the 42 point - and you could probably save money at the same time by getting rid of the Monk's belt...

... and for additional cheese there may be additional templates floating around which pump either wisdom or dex (or both?), which could account for some of the "keep your filthy paws off my character sheet" paranoia.

Although given that the OP is planning a pre-emptive strike, the paranoia seems entirely justified.

-----

As an aside, it annoys me when the DM makes me do a character/stat breakdown in front of the other PCs, it just seems rude to me, especially if it is prompted by another PC. I'm happy to share with the DM whatever he or she wants to know, but the other players can bloody well stick to their own knitting as far as I am concerned. If they want to play auditor, let them DM, otherwise they can shovel it.

[Quietus]

Is there any chance at all that this werebat is not, in fact, Evil? Sticking the Saint template and some of the AC-boosting vows on it would shoot that AC through the roof pretty quickly.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

All of that investment in Dex/AC means her Fortitude is most likely piss poor.

Pay a Wizard to hit her with Flesh To Stone.

Monks get a high Fort save, and Con is likely stat #3, due to needing more hit points.

So Fort is probably just as high as the others.

[faceroll]

I dunno. I doubt a Monk would put ranks into Escape Artist, considering they're one of the few classes geared towards grappling..

Monk has 3/4 BAB and can't pump str like other classes can. It's hardly geared towards grappling, especially a monk that's small. But maybe she bought this common misconception?

[candycorn]

Druids, by level 9-10, can easily get a 40+ AC. Wild Armor, enhancement boosts (if you can, a level of Fist of the Forest to add Con to AC is awesome, 2 levels of deepwarden to add it twice is even nicer).

If you were on a large creature with a 30 con (after boosts), Wild Full plate +2 (there's ways to do it as a druid), and +10 natural armor?

AC would be almost 50. At that point, go for grapple, then natural attacks. You'll have the edge in damage, and you'll be essentially trading blows. If you can get constrict... Even better.

[Ursus the Grim]

Monk has 3/4 BAB and can't pump str like other classes can. It's hardly geared towards grappling, especially a monk that's small. But maybe she bought this common misconception?

Yeah, I agree. But when you have high base unarmed strikes and improved grapple as a bonus feat, well. . . . Its an easy mistake to make.

[Eisirt]

Yeah, but my way is so much more dastardly-villain-ous than yours. With my way, you can go on about how doomed the monk is and explain each step in painful detail as you carry it out. The two or three rounds that your way would take is hardly enough time for a good monologue.

Never worked for Blofeld.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Druids, by level 9-10, can easily get a 40+ AC. Wild Armor, enhancement boosts (if you can, a level of Fist of the Forest to add Con to AC is awesome, 2 levels of deepwarden to add it twice is even nicer).

If you were on a large creature with a 30 con (after boosts), Wild Full plate +2 (there's ways to do it as a druid), and +10 natural armor?

AC would be almost 50. At that point, go for grapple, then natural attacks. You'll have the edge in damage, and you'll be essentially trading blows. If you can get constrict... Even better.
...It's a druid.

This really sounds like a matter to bring up with the DM. Freaking out about that makes me awfully suspicious. Any DM has the right to look at a person's character sheet. If the numbers aren't legit, the DM needs to take action to make them legit. If it's a simple math error, fine, fix it, and move forward. But having one (possibly) illegally-powerful character is unfair to everybody.

If this is a "DM's girlfriend" situation, you have my condolences.

+1

[ericgrau]

Druids have trouble with grapple damage and while you might beat the checks you could easily get out-damaged even before unarmed strike damage optimization. Natural attacks face a -4 in grapple and you only get your 2-3 BAB-based attacks instead of the usual claw-claw-rend-bite-rake-eviscerate-forced-intrusion, don't forget, so even on the checks you're probably about even. Only works if you have a dumb monk who tries to escape your grapple instead of accepting it gleefully and fighting back.

It'll be important to know whether or not he has SR yet from monk 13. SR:yes spells could work well if not. Even say an empowered maximized magic missile. Save:no + SR:yes + no attack roll might be your best bet.

[holywhippet]

Use summon natures ally to bring in a small army of monkeys, use speak with animals in advance if need be - I'm not sure if you can automatically communicate with summoned creatures. Give the monkeys a lot of flasks of oil and some alchemists fire. Prepare an ambush and begin hurling. Even if none of the flasks directly hit, they always do one point of splash damage. The alchemists fire should provide enough flame so that the oil flasks will automatically ignite on impact.

If you hit the monk fast enough they might go down before they can react. Otherwise, you'll need to immobilise them first.

[awa]

those monkeys last less then a minute and are no smarter than a normal animal . by the time you have set up your ambush which the bat will detect due to blind sense the monkeys will disappear entangle only works if the bat is dumb enough to be on the ground.

all those grapple buff will do you a lot of good if the monk dosent stay on the ground where you can reach it or runaways away until the buffs where off.

[Ursus the Grim]

all those grapple buff will do you a lot of good if the monk dosent stay on the ground where you can reach it or runaways away until the buffs where off.
Yes, flying against a druid should work well. She'll have no chance of being met by. . . .

A 90-minute windstorm that blows her towards the middle. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm)
A variety of decent flying summons. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyV.htm)
Or a variety of forms that can keep up with her. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm)

[candycorn]

Druids can get respectable grapple damage, and even if you get less attacks, there are forms with constrict, forms with rake attacks (that don't take penalties to attack in grapple).

Add on the size modifiers, the grapple checks can be strongly skewed in favor of the druid. Grapple to pin, then rake to death.

[ericgrau]

They can get decent natural attack damage, which get a -4 penalty and loses extra attacks except those from BAB. Grapple damage is harder and limited. Size limit is large, which is matched by a feat or maybe enlarge person.


Yes, flying against a druid should work well. She'll have no chance of being met by. . . .

A 90-minute windstorm that blows her towards the middle. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/controlWinds.htm)
A variety of decent flying summons. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonNaturesAllyV.htm)
Or a variety of forms that can keep up with her. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/druid.htm)


Well for the first option fortitude negates and he's using his highest level spell on something that may or may not happen. For the 3rd the biggest flying animal I could find in the SRD was a CR 2 dire bat, but maybe there are others somewhere. I suppose it's a good way to get flight before you use natural spell to cast something that can deal some damage. 2nd option might be good. More to the point, be ready for oddities like flight but don't focus on them. I'd probably go with casting/summoning as a focus and then on the side have a way of flight and maybe dealing with other tricks like potions of invisibility if you can.

[fryplink]

Lemme get this straight, your friends is a druid and is having trouble with a monk? Has he considered turning into a dire bear, buffing himself to the nines and ripping him apart? No? Not even a little?

That said, he's a monk while he is also a werebat, giving him flight you can turn that off with gust of wind then, trap with with wall of stone(into a circular or square prison) then use create water to drown him. problem solved.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Grapple seems simple enough but effective enough. I like the idea of grappling and then casting sleet storm within. I always liked rogue wave personally, you can keep a person in a sleet storm for a long time.

[Ursus the Grim]

Lemme get this straight, your friends is a druid and is having trouble with a monk? Has he considered turning into a dire bear, buffing himself to the nines and ripping him apart? No? Not even a little?

That said, he's a monk while he is also a werebat, giving him flight you can turn that off with gust of wind then, trap with with wall of stone(into a circular or square prison) then use create water to drown him. problem solved.

I think the monk is a Dire Werebat. Gust of wind fails against Large creatures.

[fryplink]

I think the monk is a Dire Werebat. Gust of wind fails against Large creatures.

That is a bit of trouble? I can't think of how a druid is going to fling a tangle-foot bag either, but that is a solution. Or making sure the fight happens in an enclosed space, because that does good as well.

[awa]

the bat will have a fly of at least 70 fast enough to evade most things its already been said that the monk has excellent saves so the wind storm probably wont work either. those summons for the most part cant hit the bat or meaningfully affect it

[ShneekeyTheLost]

the bat will have a fly of at least 70 fast enough to evade most things its already been said that the monk has excellent saves so the wind storm probably wont work either. those summons for the most part cant hit the bat or meaningfully affect it

Funny thing about flying... if you're entangled, you can't. If the monk is the aggressor, he's gonna have to close with the Druid. Who has Freedom of Movement available to him. So the answer is simply... be patient, wait for the monk to strike, laugh as he tries to use his Flurry of Misses, Engangle/Ice Storm him into oblivion.

[Ursus the Grim]

the bat will have a fly of at least 70 fast enough to evade most things its already been said that the monk has excellent saves so the wind storm probably wont work either. those summons for the most part cant hit the bat or meaningfully affect it

Anything that bat can do, a druid can do better. Dire Hawk, MMII. Fly speed 80.

Furthermore, that bat's weakest save is probably his fort. Given the long time of Control Winds, its fairly likely he won't make all those saves.

[waffleology]

Seriously I think that person is getting the shaft and the dm should step in and look at her sheet if she has a problem then she should get the heavenly brick

[faceroll]

Funny thing about flying... if you're entangled, you can't. If the monk is the aggressor, he's gonna have to close with the Druid. Who has Freedom of Movement available to him. So the answer is simply... be patient, wait for the monk to strike, laugh as he tries to use his Flurry of Misses, Engangle/Ice Storm him into oblivion.

20d6 damage over 4 rounds is hardly oblivion. That's actually a horribly bad strategy.

[Firechanter]

Meta:
If 3 pages worth of discussion by the fine users of this board cannot figure out how a 9th level Monk gets to AC 42, you can bet your family jewels that the Monk player is cheating.

[candycorn]

If this isn't core? Downdraft.

Even if the monk PASSES, the guy still goes down 50 feet (Reflex partial, not half). Ideally? Into an entangle that you're waiting in, and he tried to fly above to attack you.

Then get your AC to pin it, and full attack his helpless rear.

[Jack_Simth]

wall of stone(into a circular or square prison)Wall of Stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfStone.htm) is a 6th level spell for a Druid, and the OP is only a Druid-9. Additionally, the OP specified that the Monk has crazy saves, and when used in this manner, Wall of Stone offers a reflex save.

Unless the Druid has Freedom of Movement as well, best bet is likely Wall of Thorns (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wallOfThorns.htm) + a long-running "over time" effect (such as Summon Swarm (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonSwarm.htm) for a bunch of spiders).

[drakir_nosslin]

Give an anonymus tip to the authorities, hide and wait for the good guys to storm in and slay her. Don't forget to mention all the tricks you know she knows to the sheriff in town. Problem solved.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

20d6 damage over 4 rounds is hardly oblivion. That's actually a horribly bad strategy.

Considering that's twice what that monk has? It's an auto-kill. Hardly a horribly bad strategy...

[candycorn]

Considering that's twice what that monk has? It's an auto-kill. Hardly a horribly bad strategy...

Too slow. It'd likely take 3-4 rounds.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Too slow. It'd likely take 3-4 rounds.

During which the monk can do absolutely nothing... who cares? Unless you're worried the rest of the party is going to jump you, it doesn't really matter.

[Ursus the Grim]

Considering that's twice what that monk has? It's an auto-kill. Hardly a horribly bad strategy...

A bit of clarification.
The monk has d8 HD, with a maximum Con of 24, before magic items and other boosters.

A maximum 150 hp, average 87.
Ice Storm deals maximum 30 hp per turn, average 18.

Even if the Monk has max hit points, the Ice storm will take them down in about 5 turns. Thats assuming enough CON to nearly double what the Monk's HD warrants.

Edit:
Wait, I'm curious about this. How is ECL being calculated? We have a Wererat Druid 9, La +2 or +3, ECL 12 or 13
Werebat Monk? La +2 or +3, ECL 12 or 13 would mean Monk only 8 or 9, right?

[faceroll]

Considering that's twice what that monk has? It's an auto-kill. Hardly a horribly bad strategy...

Potion, potion, potion, potion....

[Hiro Protagonest]

Potion, potion, potion, potion....

While grappled?

[Elvencloud]

Meta:
If 3 pages worth of discussion by the fine users of this board cannot figure out how a 9th level Monk gets to AC 42, you can bet your family jewels that the Monk player is cheating.

I'm going to agree with you here, friend.

And about the rest of the party- the only other one that he's even worried about is a vampire (now) lord that's in the party- but I'm sure that as a druid, he can figure out some sort of anti vampire maneuver that doesn't require sunlight.

[faceroll]

While grappled?

How's the monk being grappled?

[Elvencloud]

Edit:
Wait, I'm curious about this. How is ECL being calculated? We have a Wererat Druid 9, La +2 or +3, ECL 12 or 13
Werebat Monk? La +2 or +3, ECL 12 or 13 would mean Monk only 8 or 9, right?

It's level nine monk, yes. Knowing the player, she may have three hd of werebat, as well.

[faceroll]

Do you know for sure it's all monk? A couple levels of fist of the forest, for instance, would hugely increase her AC.

[MeeposFire]

Potion, potion, potion, potion....

Wait he is drinking potions to stay alive? isn't that giving the druid a big action advantage while also being only temporary considering eventually you run out of potions?

[Emmerask]

Assuming she started with 16 Dex and 16 Wisdom and she has 130,000 gold(which she should not).

Dex 16 (+3)
Wisdom 16 (+3)
Adding two ability points to Dex (+1)
+2 Wisdom from Were (+1)
Ring Of Protection (+3)
Amulet of Natural Armor (+3)
Level 9 Monk (+1)
Monk's Belt (+1)
Natural Armor from Were (+2)
In Bat form (+4)
Gloves of Dex +6 (+3)
Periapt of Wisdom +6 (+3)

All of this would give her (when in bat form) a 37 AC, 32 Touch, 30 Flatfooted, 26 Touch Flatfooted.

If she instead has 200,000 gold she could have Ring and Amulet +5 instead, which would make her 41, 34, 34, 28.

If she has Dodge, I guess that gets her to 42, 35, 34, 28 and that's assuming I did my math right and all of those bonuses stack and affect her while in bat form. But she's also cheating or the DM has given her waaaaaaaaay too much gold.

A ring of force shield is inexpensive and gives you another +2 :smallwink:
Or maybe some item that gives the monk a luminous armor?
a ring of mage armor/greater mage armor?

so yes 42 ac as a monk is not that hard if you use a ton of books ^^

[faceroll]

Wait he is drinking potions to stay alive? isn't that giving the druid a big action advantage while also being only temporary considering eventually you run out of potions?

Follow the conversation I'm having with Shneekey, please. Shneekey is advocating using all 4th level slots to drop ice storms on an entangled monk. He's claiming it's a sure way to win, but I would want to have more than 3 or 4 ice storms available. 20d6 damage, 12d6 which could be resisted, just doesn't seem like a very certain way to win. Is the druid had scrolls of ice storm (great spell to keep on scrolls), or extended ice storm, it would be a much better strategy. But 20d6 spaced over 5 or more rounds doesn't have enough overkill to ensure victory.

The monk can just sit there drinking potions, because 3d8+5 is actually slightly more than 5d6, and ice storm is really the only reliable way for the druid to do damage. Produce Flame is unlikely to connect with a monk's touch AC, and the monk, at the very least, has evasion.

Blasting as a druid's too inefficient, imo. It would be better to use some control spells to buy buffing time, then move to melee engagement.


A ring of force shield is inexpensive and gives you another +2 :smallwink:
Or maybe some item that gives the monk a luminous armor?
a ring of mage armor/greater mage armor?

so yes 42 ac as a monk is not that hard if you use a ton of books ^^

Or it's not single classed monk.

[Emmerask]

Or it's not single classed monk.

possible ^^

Also in that ac list there is no sacred bonus, glorious raiment can be used on a regular outfit (ie stuff a monk can wear) and gives another +1 to +4 sacred bonus to ac, a permanent variant shouldn´t be too expensive, its only a lvl 2 spell

[Groverfield]

Actually killing her will be somewhat difficult if she isn't dead set on a fight.

You can however, make it into a retreat or die situation.
Go to town with some locust swarms: she's a monk and they're immune to weapon damage. Unless she has fire handy, she can't actually damage them. Toss on stone skin and invisability to animals. Choose a Wild Shape with High AC, stand in the insects, and wait him out.

This, plus being in a cave with a few scrolls of move earth to seal the entrance.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Blasting as a druid's too inefficient, imo. It would be better to use some control spells to buy buffing time, then move to melee engagement.The problem with melee engagement is that it becoems a battle of stats, while the Druid's main advantage in this fight is getting around those stats. Seems to me like the best buffs are the ones that will put the Druid out of reach of the monk for the entire battle. Antilife Shell is a spell level away, but Air Walk (or wildshaping into something that can fly) + Wind Wall will do in a pinch. Locust swarms don't do a lot, but if the monk is stuck in [insert BfC spell here] + locust swarm, sitting there chugging potions is exactly what you want her to do.

[Tvtyrant]

The problem with melee engagement is that it becoems a battle of stats, while the Druid's main advantage in this fight is getting around those stats. Seems to me like the best buffs are the ones that will put the Druid out of reach of the monk for the entire battle. Antilife Shell is a spell level away, but Air Walk (or wildshaping into something that can fly) + Wind Wall will do in a pinch. Locust swarms don't do a lot, but if the monk is stuck in [insert BfC spell here] + locust swarm, sitting there chugging potions is exactly what you want her to do.

Exactly! Lockdown with Entangle, Wall of Thorns, etc. Then cast unblockable spells and like Locust Swarm and wait for the guy to either die or break free. If they break free, fly off into the sunset and try again that night. If you can make them use up consumables, just rinse and repeat till they are dead.

Also, Control Water when their in a building and drown them.

[Alaris]

For those suggestion Baleful Polymorph, that's kind of useless. Unless he fails the Will Save AS WELL, then he can just change back to normal as a standard action, no penalty.

LYCANTHROPE!

[PirateLizard]

Step 1. Disguise your alignment really really good.
Step 2. Find a really high level Paladin
Step 3. ????
Step 4. Laugh as he and a small army face rolls her from a safe distance.

gl.

[vampire2948]

Why bother killing her? She's already suffering terribly. This'd just give her a reason to come back with a more powerful character that is actually capable of damaging you.


Also - Wildshape into something with faster flight than the Monk, entangle her to the ground, cast Call Lightning Storm, eat popcorn while you wait for it to kill her.

For a faster kill, use a rod of maximize on your Call Lightning Storm.

Extra crispy monk, anyone?

[faceroll]

Entangle likely won't do anything vs. a flying monk. The escape artist check is only DC20, and the DC to avoid entanglement in the first place, from a 1st level spell, is quite low.

Lightning storm is crappy, because it's low damage and allows a reflex save for half, and with evasion, that is reflex save negates.

Wall of Thorns + Wall of Fire or buffing and mauling are better routes.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Why bother killing her? She's already suffering terribly. This'd just give her a reason to come back with a more powerful character that is actually capable of damaging you.


Also - Wildshape into something with faster flight than the Monk, entangle her to the ground, cast Call Lightning Storm, eat popcorn while you wait for it to kill her.

For a faster kill, use a rod of maximize on your Call Lightning Storm.

Extra crispy monk, anyone?Considering the monk probably saves for no damage on a natural 5 and takes half damage the rest of the time, that's going to be a slow way to kill her. No-save, no-AC damage is our best bet.

[vampire2948]

Considering the monk probably saves for no damage on a natural 5 and takes half damage the rest of the time, that's going to be a slow way to kill her. No-save, no-AC damage is our best bet.

Ah. Forgot about evasion. Silly me.

[Dr.Epic]

I'd try to get them flat footed. Deny them their dex, they can't be too tough. Just make the attack count for something because you might not get a second.

[Acanous]

Sleet Storm+Ice Storm+Wall of Ice might do it, without even offering any saves that are not fort. Even if they make it out alive, you're now propably invisable with a few swarms kicking around. Might be a good idea not to *Kill* her, just make sure she knows that with little effort, you could. Comes with the bonus of lowering her HP so the daily fight might finish her off.