Blood Pact Question

[OrzhvoPatriarch]

If one makes a Blood Pact and does not fulfill it, one does not get into the afterlife.

Does this mean that if one makes a Blood Pact, has no children, and doesn't complete it, one could avoid damnation forever?

[Dr.Epic]

If one makes a Blood Pact and does not fulfill it, one does not get into the afterlife.

Does this mean that if one makes a Blood Pact, has no children, and doesn't complete it, one could avoid damnation forever?

By the looks of it, I think so long as you spend you entire life trying to fulfill it you're good. That's why Eugene didn't get in: he quit pretty early on.

[Esprit15]

Sounds like Lawful Evil thinking there. :smallamused: I think it's only for the good afterlife. I assume evil people still get thrown to the flames whether they kept one promise or not.

[OrzhvoPatriarch]

By the looks of it, I think so long as you spend you entire life trying to fulfill it you're good. That's why Eugene didn't get in: he quit pretty early on.

The point here would be that you take it and purposely do not try to fulfill it so you can avoid the Big Fire Below.

[Craft (Cheese)]

Whatever limbo there is for evil people as they're being "processed" for eternal torture probably isn't all that nice. And if you're headed to a chaotic evil afterlife they probably won't care about technicalities like that.

[factotum]

Yeah, caring that much about a Blood Pact seems a very Lawful thing to do. LE might conceivably get away with it, but I'm not sure an eternity stuck on the LE equivalent of the Cloud would be that much preferable to damnation anyway! Especially since high-level characters would generally be recruited to fight in the Blood War rather than be stuck with the rest of the evil mob in the torture pits. Heck, Belkar would probably kill for an opportunity like that!

[FujinAkari]

If one makes a Blood Pact and does not fulfill it, one does not get into the afterlife.

Does this mean that if one makes a Blood Pact, has no children, and doesn't complete it, one could avoid damnation forever?

No... principally because there is no such thing as damnnation. Evil characters are not punished in their afterlives, they form evil armies and run around conquering eachother, its great!

[hamishspence]

Depends on the afterlife. For both Baator and the Abyss, most evil souls start at the bottom, being virtually mindless cannon fodder. In Baator the process of converting the evil soul to a mindless lemure devil is incredibly painful and destroys the victim's personality.

[Phishfood]

Sounds like Lawful Evil thinking there. :smallamused: I think it's only for the good afterlife. I assume evil people still get thrown to the flames whether they kept one promise or not.

Eh, nitpick time. Its probably only for the LAWFUL afterlife.

[veti]

If one makes a Blood Pact and does not fulfill it, one does not get into the afterlife.

Does this mean that if one makes a Blood Pact, has no children, and doesn't complete it, one could avoid damnation forever?

If I asked my DM that, he'd say: "Maybe. Why don't you try it and find out?"

[OrzhvoPatriarch]

If I asked my DM that, he'd say: "Maybe. Why don't you try it and find out?"

Well, I think we can stop right here. No one is going to give a better answer.

[Silver Swift]

If I asked my DM that, he'd say: "Maybe. Why don't you try it and find out?"

I don't see why you wouldn't, if you're going to the lawful evil afterlife anyway, worst case scenario is that it doesn't work and then you are no worse off than you would be if you had done nothing.

[ORione]

If you're in the NE or CE afterlives they wouldn't care.

Maybe in the LE afterlife the devil reviewing your case would say, "Oh, you didn't even try to fulfill this oath. Off to NE with you."

[FujinAkari]

If you're in the NE or CE afterlives they wouldn't care.

Maybe in the LE afterlife the devil reviewing your case would say, "Oh, you didn't even try to fulfill this oath. Off to NE with you."

No, it would be the same as Eugene.

"Oh, you didn't even try and fulfill this oath. Sit here for the next eternity."

[Dr.Epic]

The point here would be that you take it and purposely do not try to fulfill it so you can avoid the Big Fire Below.

I don't think the rulers of the afterlifes are that stupid.

[The Pilgrim]

No, it would be the same as Eugene.

"Oh, you didn't even try and fulfill this oath. Sit here for the next eternity."

Plus, I bet in the LE afterlives, they aren't as lenient as in Celestia with those things.

They wouldn't just let you sit on a cloud until someone finishes your Oath. They will probably have a special waiting room full of boiling cauldrons to keep you suffering properly in the meantime.

[Steward]

I don't think you can deliberately take a blood oath with the intent of never completing it so that you can remain in limbo and avoid going to the Lower Planes. I mean, as you saw in the strip, it's not an automated process. A divine ethical being reviews each case thoroughly and they seem to be more or less omniscient. They would know what you were thinking and planning and they would know that you were trying to cheat them -- probably a bad plan regardless of what afterlife you're assigned to, right? (As said above, I don't think demons and devils will be more lenient than angels, and who knows what the Inevitables of Mechanus would do?)

[Conuly]

Heck, Belkar would probably kill for an opportunity like that!

Well, yeah, but he'd also kill for... well, ANYthing.

[factotum]

Thing is, a Lawful character would be very unlikely to take a binding oath with the express intention of never completing it--that's more Neutral or Chaotic.

[Thanatosia]

I think not fulfilling the blood pact means you get punished. For Eugene, since the cloud is not as good as the mountain, he got stuck with the cloud. For evil, I don't think you get stuck outside the afterlife, you get send down to the deepest darkest pits of it.

If you think of Celesitia = 2, Cloud = 1, Limbo = 0, Evil version of cloud = -1, Lower Planes = -2

Then I think not fulfilling a blood oath gives you -1 to your destination, not 'moves closer to 0' as the OP is suggesting. And I bet whatever -3 is on that scale, it isn't fun.

[The Pilgrim]

Thing is, a Lawful character would be very unlikely to take a binding oath with the express intention of never completing it--that's more Neutral or Chaotic.

Signing a document with the intention of taking advantage from a legal loophole, based on keeping to the letter of the document with total disregard of it's spirit?

Totally Lawful Evil, actually.

When in doubt about if something is LE or not, ask yourself the magic question: "Could a Lawyer pull it at Court?" If yes, then it's LE.

[Steward]

Yeah, but that sort of thing wouldn't work against beings who know everything you've ever done and can read your mind, would it? I mean, imagine if a human court had that kind of power. The judge not only has a computer that can pull up a list of everything that you've ever done in your life, she can also read your mind and know exactly what your plans are. There doesn't seem to be a way to use a 'loophole' in the afterlife; if you try to use one, they'll know automatically and punish you.

[The Pilgrim]

You have a counter-example to your argument in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0562.html) own comic, in the Azure Fleet arc.

Therkla refuses to kill Elan because she has a crush on him. Qarr tells Kubota, and Therkla defends herself claiming that she was ordered to capture Hinjo's bodygard, not to kill him. Of course, Kubota knows that Therkla's argument is a big load of horse hockey, but nevertheless lets her go Scott Free as she managed to weasel off responsibility in the LE way.

In Baator, they are less paternalistic. The problem there is that they have been playing this game for, like, eons, while you are just a newcomer. For every clever loophole you manage to find, they have found tens of thousands. So for every loophole you pull on court, they will counter you with about a dozen or so, and screw your soul up your arse anyway.

In the Oath case, if you arge to a LE court that "I'm sorry, you can't get my soul, because I swore my soul would not rest until guy X is destroyed", the LE court will simply reply "That's a pity. We were going to turn you into a Lemure and give you a chance to climb the ladder. But since your claim your soul can't 'rest', we have no option other than leave you as a soul shell and let our Devils torment you forever".

[Steward]

You have a counter-example to your argument in this own comic, in the Azure Fleet arc.

That's not much of a counter-example. Kubota is a mortal with, what, ten levels in Aristocrat? I'm not talking about how he would react to a loophole like that; I'm talking about how supreme beings of Law and Evil would react.


In the Oath case, if you arge to a LE court that "I'm sorry, you can't get my soul, because I swore my soul would not rest until guy X is destroyed", the LE court will simply reply "That's a pity. We were going to turn you into a Lemure and give you a chance to climb the ladder. But since your claim your soul can't 'rest', we have no option other than leave you as a soul shell and let our Devils torment you forever".

Pretty much like this, really.

[The Pilgrim]

I'm talking about how supreme beings of Law and Evil would react.

Laughing at the idea that a mortal could think for a second he could outsmart them. And, of course, proving him wrong by playing the game better than him.

Which doesn't involve "I refuse to accept your loophole because I know you are acting in bad faith", but rather "I accept your loophole and use it to screw you further".

After all, that's how Faustian Deals always work. The Devil doesn't tricks you by giving you something else than you asked for. The Devil tricks you by giving you exactly what you asked for.

[faustin]

Off topic question: how and in what can evolve a Lemure from its pitiful existance? I heared they aren´t more than mindless cannon fodder in the Blood Wars.

[rbetieh]

You know...I have a feeling that they would MAKE you complete your oath. You would become some kind of mindless, haunting ghost and be sent to torment the object of your oath until you killed it, or were completely obliterated.

[SoC175]

No, it would be the same as Eugene.

"Oh, you didn't even try and fulfill this oath. Sit here for the next eternity."Actually he tried to, he just stopped trying too early. But at the point where he took the oath he really meant it.

Off topic question: how and in what can evolve a Lemure from its pitiful existance? I heared they aren´t more than mindless cannon fodder in the Blood Wars.If the avoid being slaughtered long a enough their superiors can decide to promote them to the next higher form. From there a specific lesson has to be learned at each stage up until one is accepted into the infernal nobility

[Isis-sama]

This is . . . slightly off topic, but similar enough to something I've been wondering about that I thought I'd post it here to see what everyone thinks about it.

Let's say you've legitimately been trying to fulfill your Blood Pact, but then it turns out that circumstances arise in which there's no way that you can? Let's say, the guy you swore you were going to kill has already died and is not coming back. The dying and having no kids argument would also work here, as long as you were legitimately trying to kill the guy when you died, I guess. Do you get into the afterlife or not?

[factotum]

I'd say pretty certainly *not*--you didn't fulfil the terms of your Blood Pact so you stay in limbo forever.

[mucat]

In Baator, they are less paternalistic. The problem there is that they have been playing this game for, like, eons, while you are just a newcomer. For every clever loophole you manage to find, they have found tens of thousands. So for every loophole you pull on court, they will counter you with about a dozen or so, and screw your soul up your arse anyway.

:sabine:: "Doctor Faustus, we do things by the book around here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html). In this case, the book in question is bound in suspiciously familiar leather, and whispers to itself with a thousand mad voices. By all means, consult it and cite the relevant passages in your defense. I'll be standing way the Hell over here."

[Gift Jeraff]

The waiting room demiplane for the Lower Planes is probably worse than the ninth layer of Baator.

Like they force you to read old magazines for eternity.

[faustin]

"Doctor Faustus, we do things by the book around here. In this case, the book in question is bound in suspiciously familiar leather, and whispers to itself with a thousand mad voices. By all means, consult it and cite the relevant passages in your defense. I'll be standing way the Hell over here."


Faustus: "Finally I found you again! Excuse me miss, but I cannot read that name of this page. It seems something like 'HAStur HAStur HAStur' or ' HasTUR HasTUR HasTUR'"...
:sabine: ":smallsigh:not again!

[The Succubus]

Off topic question: how and in what can evolve a Lemure from its pitiful existance? I heared they aren´t more than mindless cannon fodder in the Blood Wars.

What? LEMURE is evolving!

....

LEMURE has evolved into DEVIL and devoured its owner, along with the rest of his Pokemon.

[Silver Swift]

I'd say pretty certainly *not*--you didn't fulfil the terms of your Blood Pact so you stay in limbo forever.

Well, Roy got in, and he didn't fulfil his oath either so I'd say that if you legitimately tried to fulfil your oath, you're good.

[hamishspence]

Roy didn't make a Blood Pact in the first place though- only Eugene did- so arguably the pact doesn't bind Roy the way it does Eugene- and "died trying" might still not have gotten Eugene in.

[Steward]

Roy didn't make a Blood Pact in the first place though- only Eugene did- so arguably the pact doesn't bind Roy the way it does Eugene- and "died trying" might still not have gotten Eugene in.


The deva does emphasize that Roy tried and Eugene gave up twenty years before he died and only remembered the Pact while he was on his deathbed -- only to drop it on Roy's lap. I think if Eugene had been killed in combat by Xykon they wouldn't have kept in limbo. (That's just cruel!)

[Isis-sama]

Yeah, it doesn't seem like a very Good thing to do to stick someone in limbo forever due to circumstances that are simply outside of their control. Presumably this wouldn't be a concern for Evil-aligned afterlives, but Roy and Eugene (as far as I can tell for the latter, anyway) seem to be pretty firmly established as Good, so . . . yeah.

[hamishspence]

The point is-the pact is a promise made by Eugene. "I will not rest (in this life or the next) until I or my heirs have killed Xykon".

A bit like the classic "unfinished business" of a ghost.

So- they may get no say- It's Eugene preventing Eugene from "resting".

[SoC175]

I'd say pretty certainly *not*--you didn't fulfil the terms of your Blood Pact so you stay in limbo forever.Actually Limbo is a plane in it's own right, it's the Chaotic Neutral plane.

[legomaster00156]

Let's say you've legitimately been trying to fulfill your Blood Pact, but then it turns out that circumstances arise in which there's no way that you can? Let's say, the guy you swore you were going to kill has already died and is not coming back. The dying and having no kids argument would also work here, as long as you were legitimately trying to kill the guy when you died, I guess. Do you get into the afterlife or not?

You act like death is a permanent thing in D&D. The simple answer is to raise the spirit. If he's evil, he'll take the first bus out of the Lower Planes... not knowing that there was an adventurer party on the other side, raising him only so that they could kill him again.

[factotum]

Actually Limbo is a plane in it's own right, it's the Chaotic Neutral plane.

Which is why I didn't capitalise my usage of the word, so you can assume I'm using it in the perfectly ordinary English way rather than referring to a particular plane of existence... :smallsigh:

[KillingAScarab]

If one makes a Blood Pact and does not fulfill it, one does not get into the afterlife.

Does this mean that if one makes a Blood Pact, has no children, and doesn't complete it, one could avoid damnation forever?Hmm... I'm inclined to think this might work... but only for dwarves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) (panel 11). However, Durkon's ranks in knowledge (religion) aren't simply increased by how much faith he has in Thor, and they previously weren't enough to recognize a cleric of Loki.

-Edited to add-
Come to think of it, this is really knowledge (arcana) or knowledge (the planes) territory, even if it did come up at a time when Malack was discussing theology (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html) (I loved that punchline).

[Anarion]

I would think that this would fail. I don't know the detailed rules of a blood pact, but it strikes me that nearest relative might be defined rather broadly.

Let's say you have no children. Perhaps the oath passes to a brother or sister, or to a niece or nephew. No siblings? Maybe it passes to a 2nd cousin. Even if someone revived you and cast familicide, there's a probably a 6 degrees separation style of argument where you can find a common ancestor and trace your way down to a person that shares at least some of your blood.

Now, it may be the case that the highly distant relative won't care at all about fulfilling your blood oath, but forever is a very long time and that blood oath is going to sit in the family for quite a while. Eventually some crusading paladin (or blackguard depending on the oath) will get around to it.

[KillingAScarab]

I would think that this would fail. I don't know the detailed rules of a blood pact, but it strikes me that nearest relative might be defined rather broadly.The wording doesn't include "relatives," but "heirs."

Eugene Greenhilt's Blood Oath of Vengeance against Xykon. Paraphrased slightly to make it more understandable out of context. "I, Eugene Greenhilt, swear on the blood that flows from my wounds this day that I shall not rest, in this life or any other, until I or my heirs have enacted horrible vengeance upon those who have slighted me, named here as Xykon the sorcerer."

Since this isn't property law we're dealing with, my guess is the scope is limited to people who are directly descended from the oath-maker.

[factotum]

Now, it may be the case that the highly distant relative won't care at all about fulfilling your blood oath, but forever is a very long time and that blood oath is going to sit in the family for quite a while. Eventually some crusading paladin (or blackguard depending on the oath) will get around to it.

This is assuming that it remains *possible* to complete the Oath after whatever length of time elapses, which is not necessarily the case...

[DaveMcW]

The point is-the pact is a promise made by Eugene. "I will not rest (in this life or the next) until I or my heirs have killed Xykon".

A bit like the classic "unfinished business" of a ghost.

So- they may get no say- It's Eugene preventing Eugene from "resting".

Exactly.

In Celestia, this means you don't get "in".

In Baator, this means you don't get "out"!

[VanBuren]

Wait, the blood oath said "heirs". So wouldn't that mean that anyone designated as an heir would be bound by it, regardless of actual blood relation, while conversely an offspring that was disowned wouldn't be?

[FujinAkari]

Wait, the blood oath said "heirs". So wouldn't that mean that anyone designated as an heir would be bound by it, regardless of actual blood relation, while conversely an offspring that was disowned wouldn't be?

No, while that is the -legal- definition, the actual definition is bloodline decendant. ((You do not trace your heritage to those whose money you have :P))

[Gitman00]

No, while that is the -legal- definition, the actual definition is bloodline decendant. ((You do not trace your heritage to those whose money you have :P))

Furthermore, it doesn't say, "My heirs and I shall not rest..." it says, "I shall not rest [...] until I or my heirs..."

By the strict letter of the oath, Eugene is the only one bound by it. Of course he didn't tell Roy that, or he might not have convinced him to take up the quest. Or at the very least he'd have to ask him nicely. Humbling himself isn't really Eugene's style.