Synthesists: brokenness?

[Coidzor]

Hi

We seem to be a bit off topic - original asked about fighters. A dip to enhance is one thing, but.......

Suggest Cha 12 Fighter, take level of Bard (Savage Skald archetype) for the skill access. Or you could take Sandman (Bard archetype) to be able to disarm magical traps as a rogue.

Don't forget you can get 4 skill points/level as Human Ftr. (Ftr, Human, Favoured Class).

If we do change to another melee class, I suggest Synthesist (Summoner archetype). Just massive stat bonuses, abilities, skill points, spells (Haste is 2nd lvl) etc. Dip into fighter at 2nd lvl for weapon access & extra feat.
19HP at 1st level, with only 13 Con? :smallbiggrin:

Thanks
Paul H
PS your GM might think Synthesists are a tad broken.


Your GM would be right. :smallcool: But that's a topic for another thread.


Hi

Strange thing is, Synthesist is legal for PFS campaign!

Synthesist 2/Paladin 3/Dragon Disciple xxx is one build. Transform into a Gold Dragon & smite away!

Thanks
Paul H


I would join that thread. Why is Synthesist so broken? :smallconfused:


So. Why indeed?

[Paul H]

Cut'n pasted from other thread:

Hi

Some cut'n paste, formatted by me (sorry)

Synthesist (Archetype)

Rather than summon an eidolon to serve by his side, the
synthesist fuses his eidolon’s essence to his own. Instead of
two creatures, the synthesist is a fusion of the summoner
and eidolon into a single being.

Fused Eidolon: A synthesist summons the essence of a
powerful outsider to meld with his own being. Instead of
appearing as a separate creature next to the summoner,
the eidolon appears around the synthesist, so that the
synthesist seems to be inside a translucent image of his
eidolon.

The synthesist directs all of the eidolon’s actions
while fused, perceives through its senses, and speaks
through its voice, as the two are now one creature.
While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist uses the
eidolon’s physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and
Constitution), but retains his own mental ability scores
(Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma).

The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points. When these
hit points reach 0, the eidolon is sent back to its home plane.
The synthesist uses the eidolon’s base attack bonus, and
gains the eidolon’s armor and natural armor bonuses and
modifiers to ability scores. The synthesist also gains access to
the eidolon’s special abilities and the eidolon’s evolutions.

The synthesist is still limited to the eidolon’s maximum number
of natural attacks. The eidolon has no skills or feats of its own.
The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.
While fused, the synthesist counts as both his original
type and as an outsider for any effect related to type,
whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as
banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but
the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his
eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one
creature.

The synthesist and eidolon cannot take separate
actions. While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can
use all of his own abilities and gear. In all other cases, this
ability functions as the summoner’s normal eidolon ability
(for example, the synthesist cannot use his summon monster
ability while the eidolon is present). This ability replaces
the class’s eidolon ability, bond senses, and life bond.
The following class abilities function differently for
synthesist summoners.

Fused Link (Su): Starting at 1st level, the synthesist
forms a close bond with his eidolon. Whenever the
temporary hit points from his eidolon would be reduced
to 0, the summoner can, as a free action, sacrifice any
number of his own hit points. Each hit point sacrificed
this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon
(thus preventing the loss of the summoner’s temporary
hit points), preventing the eidolon from being sent back
to its home plane. This ability replaces life link.

Shielded Meld (Ex): At 4th level, whenever the synthesist
is fused with his eidolon, he gains a +2 shield bonus to his
Armor Class and a +2 circumstance bonus on his saving
throws. This ability replaces shield ally.

Maker’s Jump (Sp): At 6th level, whenever the synthesist
is fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can cast dimension
door as a spell-like ability using his caster level. This
ability only affects the fused synthesist and eidolon. The
synthesist can use this ability once per day at 6th level,
plus one additional time per day for every six levels beyond
6th. This ability replaces maker’s call and transposition.

Greater Shielded Meld (Ex): At 12th level, whenever the
synthesist is fused with his eidolon, he gains a +4 shield
bonus to his Armor Class and a +4 circumstance bonus on
his saving throws. This ability replaces greater shield ally.

Split Forms (Su): At 16th level, as a swift action, the
synthesist and his fused eidolon can split into two creatures:
the synthesist and the eidolon. Both have the same evolutions.
The synthesist emerges in a square adjacent to the eidolon if
possible. All effects and spells currently targeting the fused
synthesist-eidolon affect both the synthesist and the eidolon.
The synthesist can use this ability for a number of rounds
per day equal to his summoner level. He can end this effect
at any time as a full-round action. For the duration of this
effect, the eidolon functions as a normal eidolon of the
summoner’s class level. This ability replaces merge forms.

You effectively 'wear' your Eidolon. Add the Eidolon evolutions to your own abilities. (Summoner APG Pg 54).

Thanks
Paul H
Edit:
Example. My 2nd vl Synthesist in PFS is a Human,
Str 12 Dex 13 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18 (+2 Stat) Dodge & Toughness
As Synthesist: Str 17 Dex 15 Con 15 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 18. +4 Nat AC, Darkvision & Evasion. (Inc. Evolution bonuses Dex & Con).

[Curious]

Alright, so lets look at the advantages a 1-level dip in this gives us.

-Temporary hit points.
-Gain the Eidolons stats.
-Evolutions, including Pounce and other such gems.
-1st level spells.

However, I believe the Eidolons stats override your own, so later on in the game, or if you have a high point buy, it seems more a detriment than a boost. Doesn't seem that broken to me.

[The Glyphstone]

Alright, so lets look at the advantages a 1-level dip in this gives us.

-Temporary hit points.
-Gain the Eidolons stats.
-Evolutions, including Pounce and other such gems.
-1st level spells.

However, I believe the Eidolons stats override your own, so later on in the game, or if you have a high point buy, it seems more a detriment than a boost. Doesn't seem that broken to me.

Physical stats only. So a (25-pt PF buy) Summoner with Str 7/Dex 7/Con 16/Int 13/Wis 13/Cha 18 becomes Str 16/Dex 12/Con 13/Int 13/Wis 13/Cha 18. It's basically 3.5 Druid Wildshape, but with unlimited duration (you can refuel your Eidolon's temp HP with your real HP, meaning it lasts as long as you want it to or until you're dead), and usable from Level 1 onward. And any class who typically dumps physical stats can benefit just as much, since Eidolons (and thus you) can still benefit from items that enhance ability scores.

[Curious]

Physical stats only. So a (25-pt PF buy) Summoner with Str 7/Dex 7/Con 16/Int 13/Wis 13/Cha 18 becomes Str 16/Dex 12/Con 13/Int 13/Wis 13/Cha 18. It's basically 3.5 Druid Wildshape, but with unlimited duration (you can refuel your Eidolon's temp HP with your real HP, meaning it lasts as long as you want it to or until you're dead), and usable from Level 1 onward. And any class who typically dumps physical stats can benefit just as much, since Eidolons (and thus you) can still benefit from items that enhance ability scores.

Oh, that. . . Does make sense. Perfect for a gishy caster, I suppose.

[The Glyphstone]

For Summoner Gishes it's brutal. For other gishes it's actually kinda awful, since you use the Eidolon's BAB while fused. Non-gish spellcasters who rely on debuffs/non-attack-roll blasting benefit more, and fantastically so if you use the interpretation that wearing a +Con item benefits your HP pool and your Eidolon's temp HP pool (because you're both 'wearing' it simultaneously). And if this isn't true, that items only benefit one of you, you then have a phenomenal AC by wearing the best armor you can 'underneath' your Eidolon (who is banned from wearing armor, but has lots of natural armor instead).

[Curious]

For Summoner Gishes it's brutal. For other gishes it's actually kinda awful, since you use the Eidolon's BAB while fused.

I think they errated that to using the Eidolon's BAB for the Summoner levels only.

[The Glyphstone]

I think they errated that to using the Eidolon's BAB for the Summoner levels only.

In that case, never mind. Wheee, it's even more broken than before.

[Curious]

So, I guess the thing to take away from this thread is, Synthesist is amazing, and you should feel amazing for having dipped it? :smalltongue:

[IthroZada]

Broken compared to what? It's tier 3, so it's better than the average melee option, not counting Tomb of Battle. Of course, you should be wary of something everyone wants to dip, but that just makes it the new Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian.

Edit: Apparently tier 2 is what was the general consensus.

[Curious]

Broken compared to what? It's tier 3, so it's better than the average melee option, not counting Tomb of Battle. Of course, you should be wary of something everyone wants to dip, but that just makes it the new Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian.

Think it's tier 2, actually, but broken compared to any other dip, I guess.

EDIT: Oh, yes, and in PF only play, it's probably pretty powerful compared to other classes.

[Wings of Peace]

Broken compared to what? It's tier 3, so it's better than the average melee option, not counting Tomb of Battle. Of course, you should be wary of something everyone wants to dip, but that just makes it the new Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian.

I think the focus at the moment is on Pathfinder only given that a couple of the quotes reference the class' legality in Pathfinder Society play.

[Big Fau]

Broken compared to what? It's tier 3, so it's better than the average melee option, not counting Tomb of Battle. Of course, you should be wary of something everyone wants to dip, but that just makes it the new Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian.

It's broken in that it's on-par with Wildshape (pre-PF). Considering how many options you have to customize your eidolon, it could actually be better than that.

[IthroZada]

It's broken in that it's on-par with Wildshape (pre-PF). Considering how many options you have to customize your eidolon, it could actually be better than that.

Doesn't that just make it balanced with the other tier 2 and 1 classes? And it doesn't have the advantage of ninth level spells and a companion that came with the druid. So compared to a Wildshape Druid, or Melee Cleric, even with their nerfs, I'm seeing it as respectable. The dipping thing, is a whole 'nother issue.

[Big Fau]

Doesn't that just make it balanced with the other tier 2 and 1 classes? And it doesn't have the advantage of ninth level spells and a companion that came with the druid. So compared to a Wildshape Druid, or Melee Cleric, even with their nerfs, I'm seeing it as respectable. The dipping thing, is a whole 'nother issue.

The problem is the balancing point itself is in the "Gamebreaker" territory. It's never good when an ability rivals a Tier 2+ ability.

An entire class based on Wildshape is easily Tier 3. An entire class based on Wildshape with Bardic spellcasting is overpowered by comparison to any Tier 3. It may not be quite Tier 2, but it isn't Tier 3 by any definition described in JaronK's Tier system.

Hell, the original Summoner is pretty powerful right out of the door. Summon Monster 3+Cha/Day, 1st level spells (with Daze at will), and effectively a Fighter as a constant minion; at the lower levels it's barely any different from the 3.5 Druid, and at the mid-levels it's still a solid class thanks to improved Summon Monster lists and Gate. UMD to boot.

[panaikhan]

I'm running a 'pure' synthesist in the campaign i'm in at the moment.
We're only level 4, but if the wording is correct, I could have a build with up to 8 attacks in one round.
Small breakdown of that:

Bite (with free trip)
Claw / Claw (with free grapple chances against smaller opponents)
For each successful grapple, Rake / Rake
Tail Sting

Compare this to the only other combat character in the party, the Ranger.

Single attack with weapon.

OK, my AC isn't fantastic at 18, but with 56HP and Step Up, I take a little slowing down

[Paul H]

Hi

Just a brief overview:

PFS is only 20 point buy.

One a base form is chosen, it can never be changed.

For Gish types you use the Eidolon's BAB instead of the Synthesist's, and add it to other classes (as usual). When Eidolon is down Synthesists have Cleric BAB.

You use your base saves, modified by your Eidolon's stats.

No iterative attacks with natural weapons.

Synthesists are only proficient with Simple Weapons (plus some racial ones). To gain access to Martial Weapons costs you 4 Evolution Points, a level dip into another class, or feats for specific weapon.

You lose your Eidolon when unconcious or asleep. Beware dumping physical stats too much, in case you get hit camping. You can resummon Eidolon as 2nd vl spell, but does take full round. Better off using those standard action Summons.

Whilst you can wear armour, it is ignored whilst your EIdolon is up. (Good backup in case your Eidolon goes).

Eidolons can't be dipelled by Dispel Magic, but can be by Dismissal, Anti-Magic zones, etc. Brilliant at low levels, easily taken down in high level games. (PFS 'retires' char's at 12th lvl, so not a problem)

You get the Bard's spell progression (maxing at 6th lvl spells at level 16), but you do get things like Haste at 2nd lvl.

You only get 15HD of Eidolon over 20 levels of Synthesist.

Evolutions varied and powerful. Includes stat increases, +8 to skills, energy resistance, etc.

Thanks
Paul H
PS Mine's working towards 3 attacks with 2H weapons, (6 arms), Pwr Attacking & Arcane Strikes.

[The Glyphstone]

Whilst you can wear armour, it is ignored whilst your EIdolon is up. (Good backup in case your Eidolon goes).


Is this actually in text anywhere? It's not mentioned or described in the PFSRD under either Eidolon, Summoner, or Synthesist.

[Cieyrin]

PF 20 point buy is equivalent to 32 point buy in 3.5, as minimums start at 10. Not exactly lacking. :smallwink:

[Paul H]

Hi

Many threads/posts on the Synthesist. This and some of the vagaries are probably the biggest arguments against it. :smallconfused:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/ultimateMagicSynthesistQuestions (just over 40 posts)

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/rules/oneSynthesistSummonerThreadToRuleThemAll (over 400 posts)!

General consensus is that since Eidolons can't wear armour, they shouldn't gain the bonuses from when their Synthesist wears some.

We're all waiting for a definitive answer on a few things. No doubt an errata will come out (hopefully) soon.

Thanks
Paul H
PS I can't say I agree with all the consensus at the moment*, but it's a starting point I can use playing my Synthesist in the PFS campaign.

*1) I believe they should be able to use Synthesists armour bonus, but clarify what type AC the Eidolon gains on levelling. (Use best armour bonus to AC from either Eidolon or Synthesist. Same for Nat Armour)
2) My view - Since Eidolons can't have Feats/Skills, the 'Skilled' Evolution can't work. How can you gain Eidolon's bonus to a skill your Eidolon can't have?

But until errata'd we just use the consensus.

[MeeposFire]

Is this actually in text anywhere? It's not mentioned or described in the PFSRD under either Eidolon, Summoner, or Synthesist.

No text on it but they did make a not so reliable FAQ (they already had to change one of their answers because one was so not supported by the rules that they had to change it). I see the rules saying armor should work but the designers and others don't want it to work either for perceived balance or because they don't like the idea of the armor bonus transferring from inside the eidelon to the outside.

[Paul H]

Hi

The text does say that the Eidolon can't wear armour becasue it interferes with their link to the Synthesist.

Maybe this is the intention behind the rationale behind the consensus.

Thanks
Paul H

[etrpgb]

Where is Synthesist from?

[Paul H]

Hi

Summoner is APG. Synthesist is Ult Magic. Pg 80

Hope that helped.
Paul H

[Cieyrin]

Where is Synthesist from?

Synthesist is an Archetype of the Summoner that's from Ultimate Magic. You can find it on the PF SRD.

[Paul H]

Hi

Note that SRD isn't always accurate. Dervish Dance is from Qadiran handbook. SRD is unofficial and waived some of the prereqs.

In PFS campaign the Qadiran version is OK, SRD (prob) not.

Thanks
Paul H

[Blisstake]

I think they errated that to using the Eidolon's BAB for the Summoner levels only.

I don't think they have.

[MeeposFire]

Hi

The text does say that the Eidolon can't wear armour becasue it interferes with their link to the Synthesist.

Maybe this is the intention behind the rationale behind the consensus.

Thanks
Paul H

Except I don't think anybody is saying for the eidolon to be wearing the armor. Just the synthesist himself under the eidolon. If they are you are correct the eidolon can not wear armor (nor does it need to).



Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious View Post
I think they errated that to using the Eidolon's BAB for the Summoner levels only.
I don't think they have.

They haven't it was said in the FAQ. Yes I know they are making up mechanics and putting it in the FAQ they do it a lot.

[Paul H]

Hi

@Blisstake.

Yep - you use the Eidolon's BAB instread of the Synthesists (whilst the Eidolon is up), You add this to the BAB of other classes as you would multiclassing with any other class(es).

It has been posted already.

Thanks
Paul H

[Blisstake]

I don't see anything about that in their errata section. Is this on their forum or something? Because I thought anything listed there is planned for an errata, but not actually in effect yet.

[Paul H]

Hi

Yep - it's on their forums.

Good luck finding stuff - posts now number over 400!

Thanks
Paul H

[The Glyphstone]

So it's not official then, just a collective decision by the community. Opinions of players are useful, but official errata (or, failing that, a post by one of the Paizo chief writers) would be useful if this were to come up in a game.

[Paul H]

Hi

The community including Paizo staff.

But yes, you're right, we still need the errata to make it official, not quasi official.

Over 400 posts on one thread says it all..........

Thanks
Paul H
PS AFAIK we're using the consensus (for now) in the PFS games.

[Drothmal]

I've been meaning to write soemthing about the synthesist, because I find it bothan awesome and a broken idea, but I want to wait until no further changes are made to the FAQ

But, basically, the synthesist could be an awesome 2-4 level dip for ANY melee-like class

Main Reason: REACH
Many other reasons (Paul H described them earlier)

Magus+Synthesist: use your PB in INT, get reach and use spell combat and spellstrike without worries
Fighter +Synthesist: Don't lose BAB, gain HP, reach, increase skills, some buff spells
Monk +Synthesist: use PB for WIS and have an incredible AC. Buy extra arms to have more unarmed attacks. Access to mage armor
Rogue +Synthesist: Pounce, more attacks for sneak attack
Bard +Synthesist: CHA synergy (don't know a lot about bards, to be hones)
Paladin +Synthesist: CHA synergy, no BAB lost

You can take a lot of traditional melee or 1/2 melee builds and make them more powerful and versatile with jsut 2 levels of this class while loosing little unless you know you are going all the way to lvl 20

Like I said, I want to make an exhaustive guide on it, since I love the archetype, but I will wait until there are more clarifications

@Paul H: I've seen a lot of posts from you on this, and I must say I'm always very impressed with them

[Curious]

I've been meaning to write soemthing about the synthesist, because I find it bothan awesome and a broken idea, but I want to wait until no further changes are made to the FAQ

But, basically, the synthesist could be an awesome 2-4 level dip for ANY melee-like class

Main Reason: REACH
Many other reasons (Paul H described them earlier)

Magus+Synthesist: use your PB in INT, get reach and use spell combat and spellstrike without worries
Fighter +Synthesist: Don't lose BAB, gain HP, reach, increase skills, some buff spells
Monk +Synthesist: use PB for WIS and have an incredible AC. Buy extra arms to have more unarmed attacks. Access to mage armor
Rogue +Synthesist: Pounce, more attacks for sneak attack
Bard +Synthesist: CHA synergy (don't know a lot about bards, to be hones)
Paladin +Synthesist: CHA synergy, no BAB lost

You can take a lot of traditional melee or 1/2 melee builds and make them more powerful and versatile with jsut 2 levels of this class while loosing little unless you know you are going all the way to lvl 20

Like I said, I want to make an exhaustive guide on it, since I love the archetype, but I will wait until there are more clarifications

@Paul H: I've seen a lot of posts from you on this, and I must say I'm always very impressed with them

Actually, now that you mention it, a 1-level dip would be pretty amazing for monks: gain pounce and an extra set of arms for attacks, as well as some 1st level spells for utility.

[Drothmal]

synthesis 2/ninja 2 (forgotten trick so you can get combat feats as you need them)/monk x

evasion, ridiculous saves, sneak attack. Dump str or dex (depending on point buy and which feats you want, like TWF or PA), pump WIS while having a decent CHA. You don't need that much INT since ninja gives so many SP. Stack Ki from 2 sources

buy an extra set of arms for 4 natural attacks (you might need multiweapon attack but that's up to the DM): You are ahead of the normal monk power curve by leaps and bounds

Disclaimer: I have not seen all the combat feats from UC, so it might not be worth sacrificing the monk levels for ninja levels. BUT you can also use forgotten trick to get style feats when you need them


So much awesomeness

[Prime32]

So it's not official then, just a collective decision by the community. Opinions of players are useful, but official errata (or, failing that, a post by one of the Paizo chief writers) would be useful if this were to come up in a game.There is monk errata which states that the BAB you get from different classes is separate, and abilities which modify BAB only do so for the class which grants them.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy88yj/faq#v5748eaic9naz (also included in the PFSRD monk page)

[Wagadodo]

Here is an Ulitmate Magic FAQ.

That from the Paizo site that gives some of the "official" ruling.

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9ob7

[Coidzor]

Monk +Synthesist: use PB for WIS and have an incredible AC. Buy extra arms to have more unarmed attacks. Access to mage armor

Monks have unambiguously per-arm unarmed strikes? :smallconfused:

[Starbuck_II]

Another errata (from Synethsist designer), you have to have hands in the new form to cast spells.
So Quadrapeds/Surpentines can't cast unless they take Limb (arms) evolution.

[Blisstake]

Another errata (from Synethsist designer), you have to have hands in the new form to cast spells.
So Quadrapeds/Surpentines can't cast unless they take Limb (arms) evolution.

So then you don't get to keep your own arms? The limbs you have switch to that of your eidolon?

That actually makes more sense, and wouldn't give you free limbs for merging with a base form.

(This whole class really needs a serious re-work rather than errata)

[Cieyrin]

Monks have unambiguously per-arm unarmed strikes? :smallconfused:

I don't think so. The way PF Flurry of Blows works is like TWF chain, which has no clause about what happens for creatures with more than 2 hands. It doesn't auto-upgrade to MWF and it specifically says you can't use natural weapons during a flurry, so I see no gain for a Synthesist/Monk on that front.

[Greenish]

(over 400 posts)!

posts now number over 400!

Over 400 posts on one thread says it all..........How many posts was that, again? :smallamused:

[Drothmal]

I don't think so. The way PF Flurry of Blows works is like TWF chain, which has no clause about what happens for creatures with more than 2 hands. It doesn't auto-upgrade to MWF and it specifically says you can't use natural weapons during a flurry, so I see no gain for a Synthesist/Monk on that front.

I can see what you mean, and I admit I could be wrong. But I read it not as a monk with multiple arms but as a synthesist that has improved unarmed strike, thus allowing you to go up to your maximum number of natural attacks using fists given by your limbs evolution without provoking AoO

As far as I know, a pure synthesist with IUS does not need to spend extra evolutions on claws and the like. Monk would just be giving you that feat and increasing your base damage

But, like I said, I could be reading it wrong. If you see it as a monk with more arms, your point is quite valid too

This class should be reworked fully into it's own alternate class. Too many questions. Hence I wait in using one myself

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, the synthesist is just a mess all around. Though that FAQ is good enough for me, for all that it fails to answer the question of how stat-boosting items work for a Synthesist under fusion.

EDIT: Also, the fact that the Fused Link ability is, as written, almost worthless, because you can't take actions (even free actions) outside your turn unless given a specific exception to do so (such as speaking). So it's only useful if you walk through a Blade Barrier or Wall of Fire or something during your action.

[Starbuck_II]

I can see what you mean, and I admit I could be wrong. But I read it not as a monk with multiple arms but as a synthesist that has improved unarmed strike, thus allowing you to go up to your maximum number of natural attacks using fists given by your limbs evolution without provoking AoO

As far as I know, a pure synthesist with IUS does not need to spend extra evolutions on claws and the like. Monk would just be giving you that feat and increasing your base damage

But, like I said, I could be reading it wrong. If you see it as a monk with more arms, your point is quite valid too

This class should be reworked fully into it's own alternate class. Too many questions. Hence I wait in using one myself

What? No, you have 1 unarmed strike even if you have a mllion arms. So monk isn't beneficial.

[MeeposFire]

What? No, you have 1 unarmed strike even if you have a mllion arms. So monk isn't beneficial.

Oh lord don't start that argument again. It only causes problems especially in PF where flurrying is two weapon fighting and that they use it with unarmed attacks by default.

[Drothmal]

What? No, you have 1 unarmed strike even if you have a mllion arms. So monk isn't beneficial.

Like I said, I could be reading it wrong.

My reasoning follows 2 steps. Please let me know if you disagree with 1 or 2 and whay

1) If you had a synthesist with Improved Unarmed Strike, I see no reason (read as no argument against) why they could not use the hands given to them from limb evolutions as valid primary attacks they can use to reach the maximum number of attacks per turn that they are allowed

2) If (1) is true, I could see the monk giving you the improved unarmed strike feat and more damage from your unarmed strikes (I copied the extra damage part of the text below)


A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table: Monk. The unarmed damage values listed on Table: Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Table: Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage.


Once again, I admit that I could be wrong. But I do not think my interpretation is so crazy... And so far synthesists have had a lot exceptions in their ruling, so it's not necessarily true that the standard ruling for monks of 1 attack no matter how many limbs still applies

[Coidzor]

Oh lord don't start that argument again. It only causes problems especially in PF where flurrying is two weapon fighting and that they use it with unarmed attacks by default.

My head hurts now.

[Barstro]

(This whole class really needs a serious re-work rather than errata)

+1

I had a pretty neat idea for the Iron Chef - PF Alchemist contest using a dip in Synthesist that I just couldn't bring myself to submit because the FAQ for Synthesist was plain wrong and there was no good explanation of what would happen if a Synthesist drinks a cognatogen.

Cognatogen = Mental score goes up, physical score goes down.
Synthesist takes Cognatogen and THEN summons; Synthesist's Mental score up, and physical score down, but Eidolol was summoned after all this, so its physical score is the same?
Sythesist summons FIRST, then takes Cognatogen; Synthesist's Mental score up, Physical score down, AND Eidolon's Mental score up and Physical score down?

[grarrrg]

Just like to add this for the Melee-Synthesist dippers. 3 levels in Synthesist lets you keep Full Bab.
Eidolon's Bab = Summoners Bab +.75 (using Fractional Bab)
OR
Summoner has "worst" possible 3/4 Bab (1st level lost), Eidolon has "best" possible 3/4 Bab (4th level lost)


Sythesist summons FIRST, then takes Cognatogen; Synthesist's Mental score up, Physical score down, AND Eidolon's Mental score up and Physical score down?

Eidolon-Form only replaces physical scores, so the question is, is it purely a mental gain? (with the possible exception of -Con+Cha dropping HP), or do your Eidolon Physical scores go down as well?

[Infernalbargain]

One issue with synthesist dips for melee's is that for prereq's you do eat the point of BAB.

The monk flurrying with synthesist is open / close.


A monk cannot use any weapon other than an unarmed strike or a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows. A monk with natural weapons cannot use such weapons as part of a flurry of blows, nor can he make natural attacks in addition to his flurry of blows attacks.

[Ashiel]

Don't forget that synthesists are like a fine wine. They get better with aging. Buff all your mental scores, screw your physical scores, and don't give a darn because you're walking around with a 16 Str, 12 Dex, and 13 Con pretty much always. Toss in a ring of sustenance and you're fused for 22 hours a day, seven days a week, rain or shine, anytime!

A standard 15 point buy human can have Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, Int 22, Wis 18, Cha 18 at 1st level. Bond with your eidolon and you suddenly rise to a humanoid with Str 16, Dex 12, Con 13. Your HP skyrockets too because of minimum HP rules. Finally you get some nice class skills (including Use Magic Device), spellcasting (your spell list isn't terrible), and you can go into wizard or some other class at 2nd level (swap the 22 to Wis or Cha for different types of casters).

A synthesist Paladin who is merged with a celestial angel is damn scary like this. Gotta love that +6 divine grace! Immunity to disease means you won't get killed in your sleep from disease damage either. You also get a spell at 2nd level that lets you apply your Charisma bonus as an insight bonus to the saves of any good creature (yourself included).

It's kind of like having a 42 point buy build on 15 points. :P

[Drothmal]

One issue with synthesist dips for melee's is that for prereq's you do eat the point of BAB.

The monk flurrying with synthesist is open / close.

I'm not sure if that was directed at me (don't thinks so) but I'll clarify just in case: My explanation above was not for a monk/synthesist with flurry but for a monk with many arms, using his non-clawed arms (that were obtained through the limbs evolution) to attack up to the maximum number of natural attacks allowed per the summoner level (with a 2 lvl dip, that would be 4).

But I completely agree that you cannot do this with Flurry (on top of that, I think that would interfere with the maximum number of attacks)

@Ashiel: Totally agree with you! the only thing is that probably a Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1 character will be targeted by an outraged DM with an antimagic field and a house cat.

But I do understand you were making the extreme case and not trying to make a real character (just though that the house cat joke was funny)

[Ashiel]

Actually, I was completely serious. I had a player in my online campaign who made a synthesist with Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, and exceptionally high mental stats. His name was Pollok, but everyone called him "Old Man Pollok", and he was a fun and funny character. Rickety old codger who the party first met sitting in a rocking chair on a ship, and was surprised when he suddenly was encased in his iron-man monstrous-body.

"Heh! Time to show y'youngsters how it's done!" - He said to the bad guys they were fighting before opening a can o' whupass on some badguys.

Sadly, old man Pollok got killed later during an adventure with some plague zombies. Poor guy caught a case of zombie rot and took some con damage which killed him when he was sleeping, resulting in the weakest most useless zombie you've ever laid your eyes on (Str 3, Dex 1, had a combat maneuver defense of like 3).

Though with the Paladin synthesist, you're immune to disease so that's a plus. On a side note, you can kinda do this anyway. Start as a human with poopy physical stats and then get re-incarnated. You get a new, young body, while you get to keep your mental stats.

I believe Old Man Pollok's buddies are hoping to find his corpse a nice druid somewhere to reincarnate him. Then he'll be Young Old Man Pollok!

Also...if your GM starts randomly dropping antimagic fields around everywhere just to spite you, he's a moron and has no knowledge of how easy it is to grind PCs beneath your boot using perfectly normal methods. :smalltongue:

[Infernalbargain]

I'm not sure if that was directed at me (don't thinks so) but I'll clarify just in case: My explanation above was not for a monk/synthesist with flurry but for a monk with many arms, using his non-clawed arms (that were obtained through the limbs evolution) to attack up to the maximum number of natural attacks allowed per the summoner level (with a 2 lvl dip, that would be 4).

But I completely agree that you cannot do this with Flurry (on top of that, I think that would interfere with the maximum number of attacks)

@Ashiel: Totally agree with you! the only thing is that probably a Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1 character will be targeted by an outraged DM with an antimagic field and a house cat.

But I do understand you were making the extreme case and not trying to make a real character (just though that the house cat joke was funny)


This indicates the maximum number of natural attacks that the eidolon is allowed to possess at the given level. If the eidolon is at its maximum, it cannot take evolutions that grant additional natural attacks. This does not include attacks made with weapons.

Flurry and eidolon natural attacks don't interact in any fashion. Also flurry spells out the additional attacks that the monk gets.

[MeeposFire]

I forget did they ever correctly describe on how unarmed attacks interact with the natural attack limit? Unarmed attacks are natural attacks but they use the manufactured weapon rules for number of attacks and so I could see that being ruled a non-natural weapon for that purpose.

[Drothmal]

This class really really needs a rework... It's a fantastic idea, and I really want to play it, but the more I look into it, the more questions I have...

[Infernalbargain]

I forget did they ever correctly describe on how unarmed attacks interact with the natural attack limit? Unarmed attacks are natural attacks but they use the manufactured weapon rules for number of attacks and so I could see that being ruled a non-natural weapon for that purpose.

Unarmed attacks do have different rules as natural attacks. For one, you don't need to take a feat to not provoke AoO's. Also unarmed attacks progress iteratively while you just get to use all your natural attacks at once.

[MeeposFire]

Unarmed attacks do have different rules as natural attacks. For one, you don't need to take a feat to not provoke AoO's. Also unarmed attacks progress iteratively while you just get to use all your natural attacks at once.

Thanks for that clarification but I know that. That is why I am asking the question. Unarmed attacks are still natural weapons with built in exceptions (the exceptions are what you list) and they have not been described as being manufactured for the purpose of the eidolon. This means unless they specifically state otherwise unarmed attacks should, by RAW, be counted against the natural attack limit. I do believe however that they shouldn't count against that limit since they do their number of attacks by iteratives just like manufactured weapons. This requires either a clarification as a FAQ (which I would accept though I would also say that they are making up rules again like they often do) or an errata specifying that unarmed strikes do not count against the natural attack limit.

[Infernalbargain]

Thanks for that clarification but I know that. That is why I am asking the question. Unarmed attacks are still natural weapons with built in exceptions (the exceptions are what you list) and they have not been described as being manufactured for the purpose of the eidolon. This means unless they specifically state otherwise unarmed attacks should, by RAW, be counted against the natural attack limit. I do believe however that they shouldn't count against that limit since they do their number of attacks by iteratives just like manufactured weapons. This requires either a clarification as a FAQ (which I would accept though I would also say that they are making up rules again like they often do) or an errata specifying that unarmed strikes do not count against the natural attack limit.

I know monk's unarmed explicitly counts as manufactured. I must ask though, if unarmed attacks are natural attacks, then what do unarmed attacks have in common with natural attacks?

[MeeposFire]

I know monk's unarmed explicitly counts as manufactured. I must ask though, if unarmed attacks are natural attacks, then what do unarmed attacks have in common with natural attacks?

If you notice the monk is specifically an exception. If it was a manufactured weapon they would not need to say that the monk fist is different. Notice that magic fang works on fists but magic weapon doesn't, unless you are a monk which only works because the spell specifically makes an exception?

Notice magic fang assumes that unarmed attacks are natural as a default (and took the time to point out that the spell does not change unarmed attack's basic exceptions).

Also notice magic weapon

"Magic weapon gives a weapon a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. An enhancement bonus does not stack with a masterwork weapon's +1 bonus on attack rolls.

You can't cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang). A monk's unarmed strike is considered a weapon, and thus it can be enhanced by this spell."

Notice the bold. Also once again it lists the monk unarmed attack as being the exception to the rule as it counts as manufactured (which note also implies that it isn't actually manufactured, it just counts as one).

Unarmed strike is a natural attack with odd rules exceptions.

[Drothmal]

So,

How much damage woudl a monk/synthesist deal (not counting STR) with an unarmed attack (as a natural attack) that counts towards their maximum?

[9mm]

Yeah, the synthesist is just a mess all around. Though that FAQ is good enough for me, for all that it fails to answer the question of how stat-boosting items work for a Synthesist under fusion.

EDIT: Also, the fact that the Fused Link ability is, as written, almost worthless, because you can't take actions (even free actions) outside your turn unless given a specific exception to do so (such as speaking). So it's only useful if you walk through a Blade Barrier or Wall of Fire or something during your action.

as written, because you have access to your gear; your base stats change; then you add your bonuses. This is precisely why I disagree with the armor ruling; though I understand why (basically they're taking the original rules and having it take precedent over newer rules)

[The Glyphstone]

as written, because you have access to your gear; your base stats change; then you add your bonuses. This is precisely why I disagree with the armor ruling; though I understand why (basically they're taking the original rules and having it take precedent over newer rules)

Yeah, but normally Eidolons can wear equipment and wield weapons (just not armor), so if you have a Belt of +Constitution when you're fused with your Eidolon, does it also count as 'wearing' the belt and thus adding to its own temporary HP as well as your permanent HP?

[9mm]

Yeah, but normally Eidolons can wear equipment and wield weapons (just not armor), so if you have a Belt of +Constitution when you're fused with your Eidolon, does it also count as 'wearing' the belt and thus adding to its own temporary HP as well as your permanent HP?

yes, you are a fused being: you wear everything, the essential trade off of the synthesis is your ediolion loses it's own gear, feats, and skills, for you having a decent temp hp shield, all it's evolutions, and a freakishly high AC

[Coidzor]

A standard 15 point buy human can have Str 1, Dex 1, Con 1, Int 22, Wis 18, Cha 18 at 1st level.

Aging penalties got worse? -1 + -2 + -3 should be -6. Or can standard point buy lower to 6 now?

[Ashiel]

The lowest you can go in Pathfinder point buy is 7 before racial modifiers and aging penalties. Thus if you tanked all your physical stats hard you'd get a -6 penalty to all of them. Interestingly, I recently discovered that since penalties don't actually lower your score, and can't reduce it below 1, I think the threat of poison and/or disease isn't quite as lethal as I had previously thought.

As in, the aging penalty applies a -6 penalty to your Str, Dex, and Con. If you have a 7 Con, your effective score is 1. However, since penalties cannot result in you falling unconscious or dying, you would still have to take 7 points of Con damage before you died, though you'd have a -5 to everything Con related, so actually accumulating that Con damage from a disease or poison would be much faster than if you were a strapping youth.

[NamelessNPC]

Just a clarification to two posts in the first page mentioning "summoning synthetists", you can't use your standard action summons while fused with your eidolon, or at least that's what the SRD says.

[Cieyrin]

The lowest you can go in Pathfinder point buy is 7 before racial modifiers and aging penalties. Thus if you tanked all your physical stats hard you'd get a -6 penalty to all of them. Interestingly, I recently discovered that since penalties don't actually lower your score, and can't reduce it below 1, I think the threat of poison and/or disease isn't quite as lethal as I had previously thought.

As in, the aging penalty applies a -6 penalty to your Str, Dex, and Con. If you have a 7 Con, your effective score is 1. However, since penalties cannot result in you falling unconscious or dying, you would still have to take 7 points of Con damage before you died, though you'd have a -5 to everything Con related, so actually accumulating that Con damage from a disease or poison would be much faster than if you were a strapping youth.

Not sure where you're getting that they're a 'penalty,' the rules just say you take this stat change and the effects of aging can't reduce your score beneath 1. That's not the same as an ability penalty. I suppose if you want to go by the text of Timeless Body, they do call it a penalty but by the definition of ability penalty in Appendix 1, an ability penalty lasts a limited amount of time, which aging penalties do not. They're just kinda in a state of flux between the 3 types of ability reduction. I'd treat it as incurable ability drain if we want to get technical about it.

[Ashiel]

Ahh, you're entirely right. My bad. I got it mixed up with something else.

[Paul H]

Hi

@Drothmal. Thanks. I have various sleep issues, looking at character builds is what I do to calm down etc. (Magus was my favoured class, now Synthesist).

I've got a 2nd Lvl Synthesist in the PFS campaign, which is why I keep up to date on the Paizo forums.

Paizo has already nerfed the Heirloom Wpn Trait recently, because it was too powerful. I'm concerned in case the same happens to the Synthesist (for same reasons).

Anything that seems to be an auto 'must have' in any game should be scrutinised.

Pure Synthesists are more powerful than many melee builds, and a single level dip grants far more advantages to spell casters than the disadvantages.

Remember the spell "Summon Eidolon"? (APG). 2nd lvl spell takes full round action to cast. Can be used with Augment Summoning for even more powerful Eidolon, but only lasts for 1 min/CL. Doesn't work if your 'normal' Eidolon is still up, but can return it if it's been banished due to HP loss, etc. (Says so in spell description).
Note: Aument Summoning is for spells. Your 'normal' Eidolon is summoned by a ritual.

So at 4th lvl you can summon your Eidolon with extra +4 Str/Con. Spell Focus (Summoning) isn't that bad either, for a Summoner! :smallbiggrin:

Thanks
(Insomniac)
Paul H