Reanimated Dread Necromancer Handbook

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The Reanimated Dread Necromancer Handbook
http://www.iconsoffright.com/Combs/Reanimator_cover.jpgNo, not him :smallfrown:

http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k236/Prroul/Thread_Necromancy.jpg
Oops, wrong Necromancer :smalleek:

http://www.cold-moon.com/images/Motivators/Classes/Necromancer1.jpg
There we go, much better.

So You Want To Be A Necromancer

The class is a solid Tier 3 class, with several different types of tricks available to them, if you so wish.

I also think there's a *lot* of misunderstandings about the class. No, not about the 'undead aren't inherently evil, you could save orphans with them' nonsense. I'm talking about rules and mechanical misunderstandings, what they qualify for, and so forth.

This is not a class for the faint of heart. This is not for 'evil lite', who drink Tab, and casually try to take over the world every Friday by employing boy-band pop music to either mind-control or drive insane the majority of the population.

This is Evil Ultra. This is for those who sank to the deep end of the alignment pool... and loved it. This is for those depraved individuals who wish to truly plumb the depths of evil, and find out what prize you get at the bottom of the crackerjack box. This is for those who traded off their last chance of redemption for a random bonus on a fairly minor ability, simply because you were at least getting something for nothing. Although we're still not dealing with the 'talking in a movie' crowd. After all, even Dread Necromancers have their standards. However, a split-ray empowered Enervation tends to take care of those annoying people fairly well. And hey, after a few centuries, when you're tired of torturing them, you can grant their desperate plea to finally die again... maybe.

Grave Soil and Onyx: What do they do?
Pros:
* Spellcasting, up to 9th level spells, with some good options.
* Lots of good innate abilities. Like the monk, we have something at every level. Unlike the monk, it actually helps.
* Minions. Really, this one word sums up why most people play the class.
* Single Attribute Dependent. Charisma is pretty much the only stat you *have* to get up there. Literally everything else can suffer.
* Auto-casting off of your spell list. Like the Beguiler and Warmage, you can cast any spell on your spell list. This means things like Arcane Disciple are a much better deal for you.
* Decent capstone. You get a LA +4 template for free. That's actually really huge. If you can still get it by this point, anyways.

Cons:
* Specialized field of interest. If it isn't necromancy, odds are you aren't doing it. And if it's immune to fear/negative levels, and not something you can simply command to sit down and obey, then you're probably not going to do a whole lot to it.
* Poor BAB. Okay, you're probably not going to want to beat on things, but if you do, you won't be good at it unless you use tricks (see below)
* Feat Starved. Most of the combos you want to pull off involve heavy feat investment.

So basically... they have several synergistic abilities which complement each other within the overall niche. However, they have very limited ability outside that niche, and find it difficult to affect much which is immune to their shtick.

Party roles

* Nerf Bat. Negative levels suck. So does Fear. You've got a lot of ways of applying both to opponents to make them trivial encounters for your party
* Disposable minions. Is there anything they can't solve? Seriously, if you can't figure out how to use disposable minions to overcome nearly any obstacle... well, that advice is covered later in the guide.
* Damage Output. Depending on your minions, you might have some sick damage output. Command an undead Bard, and you've got the makings of some truly hideously sick damage output. Even without that, if your GM throws an Ubercharger at you... well, now YOU have an ubercharger as your new minion. It's really that simple.
* Battlefield Control. Few things like taking AoO's. Having strategically placed disposable minions can make wading through a battlefield very annoying for opponents. Also, you do get other battlefield control abilities, as described later.
* Healbot. If your whole party is undead or picked up a feat to heal from negative energy, you can provide unlimited out of combat healing, and sub-par in combat healing that also hurts opponents. It requires the whole party working together to get this to work, but it can.

Class Abilities

* Rebuke Undead. This is one of your bread-and-butter abilities.
-- this bears mentioning right now: Barring tricks (described below), Dread Necromancers can not Divine Metamagic because they are an Arcane caster class. Yes, there's a way to activate it, but you don't get it 'out of the box'.

* Charnel Touch. Effective unlimited healing for your pets and for yourself if you pick up the feat or happen to be something like Necropolitian.

* Lich Body. Bludgeoning AND magic is not a common combination. And it comes early enough to be useful. Not that you should be getting close enough to be eating attacks, but hey, it never hurts.

* Negative Energy Burst. Heal yourself and your pet. Hurt opponents at the same time. Not the worst thing to do with an action. The fact that it scales with level, and no cap, is a good thing.

* Advanced Learning. I have a whole section devoted to this below. Yes, it's worth that much.

* Fear Aura. It is either minor, or huge, depending on how much you work with it. See below for optimization tricks.

* Scabrous Touch. Meh. Stat damage is fun, don't get me wrong, but 1/day Contagion, which you can pick up as a spell you can cast, if you wanted to waste a slot on it? Oh well, it's still instant stat damage if something ticks you off.

* Summon Familiar. Even without blowing a feat on a Stitched-Flesh familiar, the choices are very nice.

* Undead Mastery. It rather cramps your style that it won't stack with Corpsecrafter, which you still have to pick up to get the rest of the feat chain, but hey... throwing your Charisma bonus into the calculation for Control Cap? Made of Win no matter how you look at it.

* Negative Energy Resistance. The only truly worthless ability you get, since by now, you are healing from negative energy.

* Fortification. If you aren't undead, it's not bad. I guess.

* Enervating Touch. Hey, more negative levels to throw at opponents!

* Craft Wonderous Item/Litch. This is your capstone. Enjoy. Unless you are already Undead (Necropolitian), in which case, you simply PrC out at some point, since it is worthless to you.

Stats:
Str: For most builds, this can be safely dumped. If you're building a Gish, you might want it, but that's about all you care about this.

Dex: Well, I suppose extra bonus on ranged touch attacks is nice

Con: This is one of the few classes that can safely dump Con, since you plan on going undead anyways.

Int: Skill points are nice, but the only real point is for qualifying for PrC's. You're not a skillmonkey, and you shouldn't try to pretend that you are.

Wis: Can be a dump stat, since you already have good Will saves.

Cha: The only stat you truly need to worry about.

Skills:
You aren't a skillmonkey, pretending to be one is going to only complicate your life.

Spellcraft: D'uh.

Knowledge (Religion): gives a synergy bonus to your pet production

Concentration: Casting on the defensive

Anything else: optional.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ghoul Flesh and stitching: Building your Necromancer


Races
In general, races mean less to a Dread Necromancer, because of your lack of stat dependency. If it gives you Charisma, go for it. Otherwise... bonus feats are definitely good.

Strongheart Halfling - Bonus feat is good. Boost to Dex for ranged touch attacks, boost to AC and all attack rolls from being Small. You lose nothing, really.

Human - Bonus feats are good. Bonus skill is nice if you are dumping Int.

Azurin - if you're dipping into Incarnum, it can be very good, otherwise it's still okay.

Spellscale - Charisma bonus... check. Metamagic fun times... check (sorta). It's not bad.

Star Elf - Charisma bonus. That's something, anyways.

Assimar - LA is bad, mmmkay? There's the 'lesser assimar' version, which can be useful, if your GM permits.

Kobold - Depends on how cheese-tolerant your group is. Dragonwrought can be powerful, but Loredrake explicitly calls out Sorcerer levels, not just spontaneous caster levels, which puts a damper on things. Still, Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold = +3 to all mental stats, including Charisma, for no loss.

Illumians - This can let you persist two spells per day without needing to work on bypasses and workarounds with Persist, but beware the flying DMG's.




Templates
Your problem with templates is that LA = fail. Still, there's some fun ones

* Necropolitian - Because being undead nets you a lot of advantages, including not needing to blow a feat to heal yourself.

* Spellstitched - This will be more completely covered later, but if you can afford it, do it.

* Litch - You get this for free at Dread Necromancer 20. However, if you are already a Necropolitian, you'll need to get a True Res to get this to work. That's expensive, but worth it. You will loose any spellstitching in the process, however. But, this also means you can set up your own bonus-stacking (see below).

* Phrenic - If LA Buyoff is allowed, it can net some useful abilities. If it isn't, then it isn't worth +2 LA.


Taint
The Deceased Dread Necromancer Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook) had a large section on this. Personally, I don't know if you really want to do this or not. It depends on how cheese-tolerant the GM is. A section under Dirty Tricks will cover how to best exploit that. However, if you don't plan on doing that, I don't suggest this in general.

In brief, however, you get Taint equal to 1/2 your Charisma score + 1 if you are undead, AND you get to ignore any negative effects of Taint. You gain a bonus feat for hitting Moderate taint, and again for hitting Severe taint.

There's a cute little exploit that probably wouldn't fly with any GM about waffling between two stages of taint to get a bunch of free feats. For all practical purposes, your GM will not approve of that. Besides, it all but calls out that you regain the feat you lost when your taint score dropped anyways.

But wait, it gets better. A dip into Tainted Scholar lets you use your taint score as your casting stat. Furthermore, every time you cast a spell, you make a will save or gain more taint. Which you are immune to the negative effects of. Which makes your casting more powerful. So net result is by willingly failing that save, you end up with an arbitrarily high casting stat, and thus your DC's are something which makes even the Red Wizards green with envy.


Feats

Tomb-Tainted Soul - If you aren't planning on going undead before level 20, this is probably the feat you take at level 1. Unlimited self healing is just that powerful.

Fell Drain - Can be very nasty, with the right combinations. See below for tips and tricks. No-Save No-SR negative levels are fun to play with.

Fell Frighten - This is part of a combo to make your Fear Aura truly fearful. And then, after you get it down to +0 level adjustment, there's really no reason to *NOT* throw it on every damaging spell you use.

Fell Animate - A bit over-hyped, but still perfectly viable for reagent-free minion making. Tips and tricks to be found in it's own section.

Stitched Flesh Familiar - Can be abused by spellstitching it.

Metamagic School Focus - A -1 spell level adjustment (minimum 1) to all of your spells which are Necromancy (all of them) is never a bad thing. Do keep in mind the limitation of 3/day

Arcane Thesis - a way to reduce metamagic cost to 0, but not particularly useful if you have access to a Slaymate.

Versitile Spellcaster - can be broken, since a Dread Necro gets his entire spell list off the bat, so this DOES allow him to cast a spell level higher than he normally would.

Practical Metamagic - only works on a single metamagic feat, however unlimited usage. Good with certain tricks.

Rapid Metamagic - You're a spontaneous caster. Not eating a full-round action is a good thing. If you can afford the extra feat.

Corpsecrafter - If you are going to get this, it means you plan on getting more of them, since this doesn't stack with your class ability

Bolster Resistance - If you are running into a lot of opponent clerics rebuking/commanding your minions, then okay. Otherwise, pass.

Deadly Chill - Extra damage per mook. It's not the worst thing around, but if you've got a Bard handy, mostly unnecessary.

Destructive Retribution - Give your disposable minions something useful to do when they die! Excellent when paired with Fell Animate.

Hardened Flesh - not worth it

Nimble Bones - Most groups have you roll initiative and your pets move on your initiative. In which case, this is mostly worthless. If, however, they get to go separately, then it's a lot of fun.

Piercing Cold - Bypasses immunities of Cold Immune creatures. Except for [Cold] subtypes, who still retain immunity for some reason. It lets your Grave Mist affect more things, but still not everything. That's why we refer to it as 'UPS man lite'... it's not as good as what the UPS man does, but it's also not bad. Cold subtype critters aren't too common, in my experience.


Prestige Classes

* Dread Witch - If you plan on optimizing for fear, this is mandatory to remain effective. Dread Witch 4 nets you the ability to penetrate immunities, which is all kinds of useful. However, if you are wanting to dip into it before 8, you need all five levels, because you lose a caster level at the first Dread Witch level, and you want to pick up Aura of Terror as soon as you get out.

* Pale Master - mostly sub-par, although if your GM prohibits Leadership/Undead leadership, it's a way to get an Undead Cohort Bard/War Chanter to amp up the effectiveness of even the weakest undead in your army. That first level is *painful*, though. Strictly inferior to... anything. Heck, even MONK levels are more useful than the first level of Pale Master.

* Master of Shadows - You need Southern Magician to qualify, and the abilities really aren't much to write home about. Basically, you're trading Southern Magician and a lot of class abilities for... extra turning an an incorporeal pet. Pass.

* True Necromancer - I cannot begin to describe the amount of fail this PrC possesses. However, it *DOES* have one useful trick. Go ahead and dip Cloistered Cleric. Pick up Death domain, and probably Planning for prerequisites for Persist. Now Southern Magician, and you can cast Summon Undead II as a divine spell, and you meet all prerequisites.

You lose a caster level. Actually, you lose two of them (one from Cleric, and one from the PrC). But the Zone of desecration might be worth it. It saves the cost of buying the ring, anyways.

* Mindbender - You'd need a way to get Charm Person somehow. Fortunately, there's a lot of ways to do that, although it will require that you spend either a feat or level adjustment for it. Basically, this is a one-level class intended to net you Mindsight with another feat. Which is actually pretty handy. But probably not worth the investment for you.

* Abjurant Champion - With ways to get Divine Power, do we really need Gish PrC's? I mean, Undetectable Alignment qualifies you, but why bother?

* Nightmare Spinner - You've got better ways of dishing out fear effects, like just walking close to them. Pass.

* Ur Priest - Sure, why not? I mean, you already are telling the gods to piss off, so why not siphon off their energy while you're at it? It almost makes Theurging viable.

* Void Disciple - too many lost caster levels, not enough abilities to compensate. Pass.

* Magical Trickster - It's hard to say 'no' to a bonus metamagic feat.

* Master of Masks - A one-level dip for those gishy types nets you access to all exotic weapon proficiencies.

* Spellwarp Sniper - Possibly useful to Enervation specialists, but really... not too valuable overall.

* Uncanny Trickster - This class is mostly useful for tricks like extending HFW or War Weaver. You really don't use any classes like that, so it's not very handy.


Dips and Splashes - how other classes can help you do this better

* Duskblade - For those gish-types out there. Specifically, Arcane Channeling lets you reach out and smack someone. Combo this with, say, Enervation or Shivering Touch. Have fun.

* Rogue - Really, not that spectacular, although if you absolutely are being pidgeoholed into the skillmonkey role, despite clearly being a 'Blarg, Blarg, Death, Fear Me' type person, it nets you Trapfinding, Sneak Attack, and Evasion if you go 2 level dip. If you plan on pursuing this, you're almost going to have to go Arcane Trickster (pick up the feat for Mage Hand), because nearly every single spell you have is Necromancy, so the penalty for all non-divination spells is *crippling*.

* Paladin - And by Paladin, I mean Paladin of Tyranny or Paladin of Slaughter. After all, we're swimming in the deep end of the alignment pool here. A two-level dip gets your only really vital stat, which happens to be your casting stat, as a bonus to all saving throws. What's not to like about that? If you're going for more of a Gish-Centric build, three levels into Paladin of Tyranny nets Aura of Despair for a no-save debuff to saving throws. Four levels nets you an extra set of Rebuke attempts you can burn on DMM stuff, but that's starting to really cripple your Dread Necromancer levels.

* Barbarian - If you're going Gish, then do it right. One level dip for Whirling Frenzy Pounce Barbarian is not the worst thing that can happen if you are abusing Divine Power through Arcane Disciple, or otherwise end up with a high BAB.

* Fighter - No. Just... no. Even if you need the feats, there's other things to do. Don't even *think* about Zhent, since you've got better things to do than spending actions, even swift actions, to make opponents cower. Like simply walk near them.

* PsyWar - If you need feats, go here. You at least also get meaningful class abilities.

* Beguiler - Sure, it's fun, but... why? Two spontaneous classes? There's really no way to make them work together.

* Scout - For the more mobility-minded skillmonkey builds who prefer this to Rogue. Personally, I'd rather just go Rogue, but to each their own.

* Ranger - Why?

* Cleric - Okay, a one-level dip here can net some useful things. With the right domain choices, you can enable the True Necromancer class (if you *REALLY* are wanting the Aura of Desecration THAT badly), Planning domain can net you Extend Spell so you can pick up Persist easier, Deathbound nets you Extra Turning. And speaking of turning... you get another pool of rebuke attempts to spend on DMM shenanigans.

* Wizard - Technically, you can try for an Ultimate Magus build, but... why?

* Sorcerer - Only if you're having a real strong desire for Mage Armor and Shield and Abjurant champion to make... only the latter one... more effective. And even then, not worth the dip.

* Factotum - It's like what I said with Rogue, only a bit better at what it does for you. Not the worst thing that can happen to you, particularly if you're trying to qualify for a PrC with some obnoxious skill requirements. Going into it for any length of time is detrimental to your overall Necromancy focus.

* Dragon Shaman - Do you *really* want auras that bad? Glah. I suppose, if you absolutely must buff your minions in this way, get a minion to do this for you.

* Marshall - Yo dawg, I heard you liked Charisma. So we let you Inspire Charisma so you can get your Charisma modifier while you get your Charisma modifier. Other than that, I see no viable use for this.

* Bard - I already see where you're going with this... "I've got a metric TON of minions... now I want to make them AWESOME!". That's nice. But the problem is that IC optimization is feat-intensive. So is Minionmancy. Do one or the other, but doing both ends up in doing neither. However, if you DO encounter a Bard... it would make an excellent Sargent for your army of undead.

* Crusader - If you don't like using class variants, here's a martial class for Gishing it up with instead of Paladin. Also makes a decent Lockdown build even better with Thicket of Blades. Check with your GM if the ambiguous wording lets you negate Tumbling as well.

* Warblade - Another perfectly viable option for a gish splash, although more Int centric.

* Swordsage - Nets some handy abilities, depending on when you get into it. Short range teleport is always nice, precision-based damage can be useful for a Gish, and they do have some fun ways of saying 'no thanks' to melee in Setting Sun.

* Incarnate - It's so easy when you're eeeevil... Ahem, sorry. There's this thing, it's called Necrocarnate. Look it up, this might be your shtick.

* Soulborn - Friends don't let friends do Soulborn.

* Totemist - Sure, some of the Totem binds can be really useful for you, and a two-level dip isn't too hard on you.


Jump-out points
Really, Dread Necro is viable all the way 1-20. However, there's some places which are better to leave than others...

* 7th level - If you promise to come back to 8th level for Advanced Learning of a higher level spell, then this works well. Otherwise, not so much.

* 8th level - Trap. Big, huge, honkin' trap. The previous guide even commented that this was pretty much the optimal leaving point. I disagree completely.

Undead mastery only applies to Dread Necromancer levels. In other words, you are quartering, or worse, your control HD cap by leaving now. And the ability doesn't stack with Corpsecrafter. So either you're going to blow a feat on absolutely nothing to gain access to the rest of them, or you are trading a steep class investment for something a simple feat can duplicate.

Either way, it's a sucker's bet.

* 12th level - This is a good jump point. You have either Aura of Terror (if you are optimizing your fear aura) or Animate Dread Warrior (if you want big, beefy, scary, dangerous pets).

But like I said, it's perfectly viable 1-20, if you want.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This post reserved for dirty tricks and combinations as well as example builds.


Spellstitched, Desecration, and DMM: Tricks of the Trade

Okay, this is the part you've all been waiting for... how to twist the RAW into neat looking pretzels and come out smelling very Gouda.

1) Divine Metamagic and YOU!

Okay, DMM is a lot of fun. You've even got more than the typical amount of rebuke attempts to fuel it. Only one problem: You're an arcane caster, and DMM can only be applied to Divine spells.

The solution: Southern Magician. Has to be taken at 1st level, but basically it lets your spells count as divine, which means DMM Enabled! Does blow a feat, though.

2) Spellstitched. There's a LOT of fun things you can do with this, as long as you don't have to do it yourself. Hire someone to do it to you. If you have a Stitched-Flesh familiar, you can spellstitch your familiar as well. Or at least get it spellstiched, since you still would rather pay GP. There's lots of fun things to have Spellstitched, Create Undead is probably the most fun. Component-free creation of undead. Sign me up!

3) HP Stacking And *YOU*

Undead don't get bonus hit points every hit die. That really sucks, considering they die when they hit 0 hp, and it's almost impossible to get them back (in the state they were in). Fortunately, there's a lot of ways you can pull this off. If you're setting yourself up for your Capstone, you can make sure all this is already in effect:

* Caster has Corpsecrafter/Undead mastery. +2 HP/die
* Created in a Desecrated + Alter area: +2 HP/HD

That'll probably ramp up your survivability somewhat.

4) UPS Man Lite!

Fell Drain is a lot of fun. And by a lot I mean 'insta-gib any CR appropriate encounter'. But it's a +2 spell level adjustment, how ever shall we deal with it?

Well, first off, we could always use Practical Metamagic with it, to reduce cost by 1. We could also get Metamagic School Focus for 3/day. We can also pick up a Slaymate, since you're going to be using it with something in the Necromancy college.

Now, as far as what to use it with? Kelgore's Grave Mist. No save, no SR, deals damage in an area effect. Perfect for Fell Drain. Pick it up at 4th level with Advanced Learning. Your undead minions are immune to it, so friendly fire isn't much of a problem.

5) Fell Animate + Destructive Retribution
This is a cute little trick for making a bunch of walking bombs. Kind of feat intensive, but it works beautifully when you get it up and running. Again, I suggest Kelgore's Grave mist as the vehicle for this combination, particularly if you can throw in Fell Drain on top.

6) Aura of Terror. This is the spell you pick up at 12th level. Or, if you went with Dread Witch to bust immunities, then you go Dread Necro 7/Dread Witch 5/Dread Necro x. Why? Because Aura of Terror increases your Fear Aura by 10'. That triples the radius! And it increases the fear from Shaken to Frightened. Now we tack on... Fell Frighten... and everything is starting to be Panicked. And the DC stacking is pretty nice too.

7) Bardic Music + Requiem + Lots of Undead Minions = Profit!
The Requiem feat lets Bardic Music affect undead. We all know how well IC/DFI optimization can go. If you find a bard, make sure to bring him back as something that retains class abilities. Animate Dread Warrior, for example, I believe retains class abilities (Advanced Learning is so much fun). I'm sure there are others.

8) Slaymates: The perfect companion
Get one. It doesn't matter what you have to do. Call up Pazuzu and ask for a candle to wish for one, if you must. Scour the lands far and wide. When you get one, Command the hell out of it. Keep it with you always. Guard it well. It's a free -1 level adjustment metamagic reducer. And it doesn't limit you to a minimum of +1. That's right, this, combined with Practical Metamagic, lets you cast Fell Drain or Fell Frighten with no level adjustment at all!

9) Black Lore of Moil. Deals sub-par damage with any necromancy spell. So why bother? Because you need a damage component to tack on Fell x feats. For, let's say, Aura of Terror shenanigans. However, it also lets pretty much any Necromancy spell deal at least one negative level in addition to whatever else it does through Fell Drain.


Advanced Learning: Special Topics for the Dedicated Necromancer
Advanced Learning is one of the reasons Dread Necro is more than 8 levels long. Allow me to provide a list and brief reasons what spells are good to go with this:

4th level: You can pick up a 2nd level spell at this level. Here's some suggestions:

* Kelgore's Grave Mist (PhB II) - Quite simply, it's no save no sr damage that you can Fell X stack. This is how you get automatic negative level output by level 4.

* Death Armor (SpC) - Fairly sub-par, but some Gish builds might like the idea of making opponents hurt themselves by attacking you.

* Ghoul Glyph (SpC) - Now this one is a lot of fun, however it isn't as fun as you might think. You see the Casting Time: 1 Minute? Yea, that puts a damper on things. Fortunately, the duration is Permanent Until Discharged. Unfortunately, if they move more than 5', then the glyphs fade, so you can't pull the same trick you do with Explosive Runes, and you can't use a Bouncing Ball of Symbol of Insanity (Mad props to ya, Xykon). It's good for preparing an ambush, but don't expect to be able to use it in combat effectively, and probably not worth your Advanced Learning slot.

So of these spells, Kelgore's Grave Mist is your option if you plan on (ab)using Fell X, but Death Armor is an option for those dedicated gish builds who want to mix it up in melee.

8th level: You can pick up a spell up to 4th level here. There's some good options. Also, if you enter a PrC before 8th, make sure you pick up at least +4 CL before returning to pick up the 8th level so you can get higher level spells from it.

* Shivering Touch (Frostburn) - 3d6 Dex damage on a touch attack, what's not to like?

* Crown of the Grave (PhB II) - Not worth it. Big ol' trap. You've got much better ways of Commanding Undead. Hey, wasn't there a spell with that name somewhere? As a lower level spell? That you get in-house? Pass.

* Doom Scarabs (PhB II) - Another decent way of applying Fell X, since it ignores SR. Will save for half, so Evasion won't protect you. Mettle will, though, so be careful of Crusaders.

* Incorporeal Enhancement (SpC) - If you really like incorporeal undead, it is a 24 hour buff, and it has a number of targets equal to caster level. If you've gone for Master of Shrouds, or if you just like incorporeal undead, this might be fun to play with, but only for certain specific builds focusing on incorporeal minions.

* Undead Lieutenant (SpC) - Not bad for Minionmancers. You can control more undead this way.

*Undead Torch (SpC) - It's not bad, I suppose. The duration sucks, so you'd probably want to find a way to Persist it, but it's another way to stack a bit more damage onto your undead horde. 2d6 is crap by itself, but 2d6* (number of corporeal minions you happen to have) might be worthwhile. Do keep in mind that if you are a corporeal undead, you can buff yourself with this, making it viable for gish types.

* Burning Blood (SpC) - While a bit underwhelming, it might be fun if you can Chain it. If the target can't make it's saves regularly, it's an effective Save or Lose. Any round it fails the save, it can't attack, and takes 1d6 Fire and 1d6 acid damage. Good single-target debuff if your DC's are significantly better than the target's Fort saves.

* Rebuking Breath (SpC) - It's a trap. You don't have a breath weapon. Even if you did, you still have better ways of Rebuke/Commanding undead.

So, you've got some fun options, depending on your play style.

12th level: This is where it gets fun.

* Aura of Terror (SpC) - Increases your already present Fear Aura by 10' (to a total of 15', effectively tripling your radius), increases fear from Shaken to Frightened, *AND* increases the DC of the save. Hey, I like the way you think! Even more fun if you Persist and Fell X stack it.

* Animate Dread Warrior (UE) - For those minionmancers who prefer quality over quantity. This is one of those spells that makes your minions go from 'disposable minions' to 'better than the party tank'. Spellstich it if you really want to get cheesy.

* Graymantle (SpC) - Well... suppressing Regeneration is useful if you are wanting to take down Big T, because then anything will kill him until the spell wears off. Getting it to stick might be hard without Tainted Sorcerer tricks, but hey... if that's where ya want to go, then go there.

* Fleshshiver (SpC) - CL boosting methods (Tainted) can make this single-target No-Save-Just-Lose. Stunned (hard to be immune to), then Nauseated after that. Best served with Chain Spell.

* Imperious Glare (SpC) - Depends on if your Fear Aura counts as a Frightful Presence or not. If that flies, then this makes imperious Command look like a pansy, because it's a large number of targets, so no need to bother with Never Outnumbered or the feat investment of Imperious Command. Otherwise, you may have to blow feats to get a Frightful Presence, which still comes out ahead of Imperious Command by virtue of having a longer duration (1 round/level rather than 1 round) and larger number of targets.

* Revive Undead (SpC) - Because sometimes it's easier to revive your valued lieutenant rather than hunt another one up

16th level: Okay, now you're cookin'. This nets you up to an 8th level spell, or even a 9th if you PrC'd out somewhere for a couple of spell levels. Do keep in mind that you can pick up one from the previous list if you're wanting both Animate Dread Warrior *AND* Aura of Terror.

* Awaken Undead (SpC) - Well, if you want a lieutenant, sometimes you have to make one

* Barghest’s Feast (SpC) - When you really, *REALLY* want someone gone for good.

* Evil Glare (SpC) - Paralysis is a fun status effect to pass out, although by now it's a bit underwhelming. Still, with Dread Witch, you can bypass immunities, so it isn't so bad.

* Avasculate (SpC) - Because sometimes, you just want to do damage. Stunning is also fun. But really, there's stronger things to do.

* Kiss of the Vampire (SpC) - you can already do most of this better already. It's a trap.

* Skeletal Guard (SpC) - So wait... I get to do the same thing I was doing with Fell Animate Kelgore's Grave Mist some ten levels ago... only now it costs me a ton of onyx? Okay, maybe if you had some Cleric who loved turning the heck out of your minions, it might be nice (turn resistance equal to CL-1), but otherwise... definitely pass.

* Veil of Undeath - You are already undead at this point. Pass.

* Bestow Curse, Greater - On first glance, my question was 'why bother with a 3rd level spell?' Then I actually read it. One stat is reduced to 1 = Shut down casters instantly. -8 on pretty much everything. It's a great way to drop saves. Duration = Permanent. You need a Wish or Miracle to get rid of it. And you're used to using Spectral Hand to deliver touch attacks anyways. Not bad, actually.




Move Your Dead Bones: Build Examples

The Scarecrow
Illumian Dread Necro 7/Dread Witch 5/Dread Necro 8

Feats: Extend Spell, Persist Spell, Fell Frighten, Black Lore of Moil, Arcane Disciple (Pride)

Toys: Slaymate. Metamagic Rod of Fell Drain makes this even more amusing

Trick: Pick up Aura of Terror. Use NaenHoon to Persist it. Black Lore of Moil deals negative energy damage that very few things are immune to, which lets you Fell Frighten which increases fear level to Panicked, or Shaken even on a successful save. Here's the fun part... Fell Frighten stacks with itself, so you can easily lock down entire battlefields with Fell Frighten Kelgore's Grave mist. Oh, and Lord of the uttercold means half the damage it is doing is negative energy.

You now are a walking 15' radius of lockdown that bypasses immunities to Fear, thanks to Dread Witch. If you have Metamagic Rod of Fell Drain, you also deal negative levels to opponents in the area as well. Your undead minions, of course, could care less about negative levels.

Black Lore of Moil causes any necromancy spell to deal damage, which enables Fell Frighten. There isn't a way to bust immunities, such as there is for Cold or Fire based damage, but very few things are immune to negative energy damage. Most of them being either Undead (which you simply turn into your personal flying monkey via Command Undead), or Constructs (which might be a problem if you weren't a Gish build with effective full BAB).

Oh, he's got one more use of NaenHoon. So let's go ahead and Persist Divine Power while we're at it. Now we're a full BAB gish that loses only a single caster level.

Basically, he tells Takahashi to go cry in a corner. He doesn't need to expend any actions to force opponents to make a Will save or Panicked, and if they can't run, they Cower. Oh, and before you call the build a one-trick pony, remember he's still got 9th level spells available to him. Sure, he's got a strong trick, but that's not all he can do, and more importantly, he can ignore immunities.

Minonmancer

Human Dread Necromancer 10/Pale Master 10

Feats: Fell Animate, Fell Drain, Skill Focus: Religion, Metamagic School Focus (Necromancy), Corpsecrafter, Explosive Retribution, Profane Lifeleech, Nimble Bones

The tricsk:

1) Profane Lifeleech cannot reduce opponent's hit points below 0. So, drain 'em down to 1 (you'll know when you stop getting hit points from them), then send in the Fell Animate Kelgore's Grave Mist. Instant minions, no onyx required.

2) Hey, I got me a Bard! Pale Master is widely seen as a sub-par PrC. And... I'd really agree with that assessment. However, it *DOES* give you an Undead Cohort, since most GM's ban Leadership or Undead Leadership. And you get to make your Cohort. So I'd suggest you nip on over to the IC/DFI optimization thread to consult when making your new best friend and lieutenant. Because even 1hd zombies become scary when a proper Bard/Warchanter boosts the heck out of 'em.

3) Explosive Disposable Minions! Who cares if they die off in droves? You can make more for free, and they blow up when they die, doing (1+1/2HD)d6 negative energy damage to everything within a 10' spread. including your other pets. Including yourself. Oh, wait... you and your pets HEAL from negative energy damage, so... bonus. So go ahead, and let the paladin wade through your minions. He'll run out of hit points before you run out of minions. Then just stop by the next village to stock up again.

4) Breaking the HD Cap.
Now, being as you are a Dread Necro 10, you already have a higher HD cap than most 20th level Clerics, since you get to multiply your Charisma mod in there. However, the capstone ability of Pale Master means you also get to break the HD cap in a couple other ways. First off, there's no HD limitation on how big a critter you can bring back with your capstone ability. So if you find a way to actually kill Big T, you can theoretically turn him into a zombie. And zombies acquired this way don't count against your HD cap. Granted, zombies normally aren't all that powerful. But hey, 20something HD zombies at least have a metric ton of hit points. At least the ones you create do. And when you combine that with the Bard's stuff... ouch. And if they DO somehow manage to take it down, well... remember, Destructive Retribution doesn't have a cap either. So if they DO manage to kill your Zombie 12 headed Hydra (for the extra bites per turn), they take an extra 7d6 negative energy damage, just for having killed it.

Some fun critters to do this with:

Hydras: Lots of attacks are fun when combined with DFI

Leopard: 3hd, so you can have a LOT of them. Pouncing for 5 attacks (bite + 2x claw + 2x Rake) means a LOT of DFI application

Enervationist
Human Dread Necro 20

Feats: Split Ray, Empower, Black Lore of Moil, Arcane Thesis (Enervation), Fell Drain, Rapid Metamagic, Quicken Spell, Practical Metamagic (Quicken)

Tactic: Enervation is a lot of fun. A Split-Ray Empowered Enervation is a lot more fun. A split-ray Empowered Fell Drain Enervation is... well, you get the point. We're doing metamagic stacking in the worst way here. With a Slaymate, it's going to be pathetically easy. Split Ray is a +2. Well, Arcane Thesis knocks one off, and Slaymate knocks the other one off. Same with Empower and same with Fell Drain. And, of course, in addition to doing negative levels, it's also doing a bit of negative energy damage, thanks to Black Lore of Moil. Wait, what's that? Oh, Quicken would like to announce that it will balance out that -1 level adjustment modifier that Black Lore of Moil provides, so you can quicken without spending a higher level slot.

So now you apply everything for sick negative level generation at almost no cost to you.

Priest of the Damned

Human Cleric1/Dread Necro8/UrPriest2/True Necro9

Ever got the urge to theurge? This is the way to do it right. Mind you, make sure to advance UrPriest with True Necro for 9's on the divine side. You sucked up too many other levels to get away with 9's on the arcane side, but that's okay, there wasn't a whole lot of love for a Dread Necromancer's 9th level spells.

What do you get? More turn attempts than you can shake a Metamagic Rod at. You gotta take the Cleric dip for the Death domain. There just doesn't seem to be any other way 'round it. And Ur-Priest? Well, who doesn't like getting 9th level spells over 10 levels?

So you've got 9th level Divine spells, if you delay your Dread Necro 8 until you get 6th level spells, you can pick up something fun that you might otherwise miss out on. You can persist the hell out of a LOT, probably half your UrPriest spells are gonna be persisted buffs. But you'll still have a Desecrate aura, Unhallow on your list, Blasphemy which can be Divine Spellpower augmented to INSANE levels to insta-gib just about anything, and in general, you generally go to bed with more spells than most casters wake up with in the morning.

I'm sure you can come up with more

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Pets, Minionmancy, and YOU

So you want to go Minionmancer and have your pets do all the work for you while you sit back and relax? That's an excellent application of magic to reduce your overall need to do anything yourself other than give orders. But what make the best pets? I'm glad you asked that too!

Here's a cute problem/benefit about minions, though: All minions of the same HD have the same hit points, because they all have the same d12 HD, no Con modifier, and the same bonuses of hit points based on what you do and where you are when you make them. Therefore, 'meat shield' options simply don't exist. If it's got that HD, it's just as good, or bad, a meat shield as anything else that HD. Chose based on damage output and utility.

Stats: Strength and possibly Dex are the only two stats you care about.

Special Qualities: You're looking for things that augment your pet's natural attacks. So things like Pounce, Improved Trip, Improved Grab... those work. Most other things? Don't. So watch out for traps.

This list will be broken up by HD.

1/4 HDRat - Pipes of the Sewers summon a bunch of them. Fell Animate Kelgore's Grave Mist makes them all zombies under your control. It's a level 4 combo to max your control cap quickly.

1HD
Baboon - Well, it's better than a human, anyways.
Badger - 3 attacks on a full attack is not bad
Monkey - Retains it's climb speed, so it might be able to be useful for utility

2HDWolf - Trips are a lot of fun.
War Pony - If you want a packbeast for 2hd, here you go.

3HDCamel - makes the best pack animal of the 3hd options.
Crocodile - If you're in swampy terrain, it's not bad.
Bear, Black - Two claws and a bite... and a 19 strength. What's not to like?
Leopard - Ouch. No, really. 5 attacks on a pounce. If you can get some inspirational music going, these guys can be your Turbo-Ginsu! Start a conservation/breeding program early so you can have a large supply of them.

[Traab]

You know, im glad you are posting this. The dread necro is the class ive heard about which most makes me want to play the game. It just sounds FUN!

[Daftendirekt]

* Decent capstone. You get a LA +4 template for free. That's actually really huge. If you can still get it by this point, anyways.



You do not gain the lich template at DN20. You get a phylactery and the undead type, that's it. The whole point of Dread Necromancer is that you get all the **** the lich gets, but spread out over 20 levels. If you want the template, take the template.

[Urpriest]

I've never heard Dread Necro called Tier 4. It's pretty much the quintessential Tier 3 caster, second only to the Beguiler.

[Amphetryon]

"Lich body" not "Litch body". "Scabrous Touch" not "Scaberous Touch".

Quoted from K's Revised Necromancer Handbook:

The Dread Necromancer
The Dread Necromancer is a class that is 8 levels long. Early in its life it is a melee warrior, and later on it’s a passable Undead Leader. You can cast any spell on your spell list as a spontaneous effect, which is a unique way to do things and of course is the most favorable spellcasting mechanic ever. Adding spells to your list is easy and fun, the default method is to use Arcane Disciple, which adds 9 spells to your list each time, but more elaborate methods (such as a Ring of Theurgy) exist. All Dread Necromancers, regardless of their ultimate goals, have Tomb Tainted Soul as their 1st level feat. That’s not a recommendation, that’s a simple fact. The ability to heal yourself with your own touch is invaluable, and in the long run you are going to have the ability to spray negative energy all over everyone within five feet of you, including yourself. If you don’t have Tomb Tainted Soul, your negative energy bursts are a suicide bomb, if you do have it they are instead an vampiric healing attack.

[TheJake]

Schneeky, good work on starting this. :)

BTW...

You do not gain the lich template at DN20. You get a phylactery and the undead type, that's it. The whole point of Dread Necromancer is that you get all the **** the lich gets, but spread out over 20 levels. If you want the template, take the template.

This is correct by RAW.

Lenient DMs may choose to provide the Lich template, but that is a house rule. (Is it just me or does the DN class look like the capstone if not all class abilities were developed completely independent of the Lich template??).

It's also unknown how DMs would choose to handle the various overlapping abilities of both the Lich template and the class abilities (e.g. would Lich DR override class DR?).

All this needs to be reflected in the guide some how. Some advice for guiding players into house ruling this into a relatively sane manner would also be doubly appreciated.

- J.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Quoted from K's Revised Necromancer Handbook:

And I strongly disagree with this. It fails to take into consideration that your charisma bonus is only added onto your Dread Necro levels, so you'd ultimately be hurting your legion of undead by only taking eight levels. Basically, you're getting Corpsecrafter, then having to take it again just to get your explosive undead minions.

If you were only going to go 8 levels, don't bother with it.


You do not gain the lich template at DN20. You get a phylactery and the undead type, that's it. The whole point of Dread Necromancer is that you get all the **** the lich gets, but spread out over 20 levels. If you want the template, take the template.

WRONG!

Lots of people seem to think that, however it explicitly states:


When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich.

So yes, you become a lich. It even references the page number for the Lich entry, and stating that he doesn't have to pay for his phylactery. So I really don't see how you can argue that he doesn't.



It's also unknown how DMs would choose to handle the various overlapping abilities of both the Lich template and the class abilities (e.g. would Lich DR override class DR?).

- J.

DR doesn't stack. It never stacks. So the DR 15 Bludgeoning AND Magic overwrites your current DR 8. Your immunities overwrite your resistances.

[Amphetryon]

And I strongly disagree with this. It fails to take into consideration that your charisma bonus is only added onto your Dread Necro levels, so you'd ultimately be hurting your legion of undead by only taking eight levels. Basically, you're getting Corpsecrafter, then having to take it again just to get your explosive undead minions.

If you were only going to go 8 levels, don't bother with it.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'll agree to disagree here.

[TheJake]

Also it would be useful to talk about different playstyle approaches with a DN.

E.g.
* Metamagic hijinx: (E.g. Rapid Metamagic, Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, Chain Spell).
* High Save (E.g. Finger of Death, Horrid Wilting)
* No Save (E.g. Enervation)
* Hordemaster (E.g. Corpsecrafter feat chain, Leadership, Undead Leadership).

The other books touched on it with build guides and spell lists but never really took that extra step. I also think this is how you really get people to understand "how-to-charop" for a given class.

- J.

[NecroRick]

You're entitled to your opinion, but I'll agree to disagree here.

FWIW I agree with Schneeky (sp???) here, Dread Necro's bonus undead controlled only take into account DN levels. Other levels after that accumulate at the normal rate (usually 4 extra HD per level).

---

I'm interested to see what you do with Advanced Learning. I'd originally thought Desecrate, but of course Desecrate is an Evilcation not a Necromancy, so it isn't eligible. (Fortunately there's a (cheap) Ring for that - check the third link in my sig)

I'm also interested in why the emphasis on ranged touch attacks - after all, once you hit level 4 (?) Spectral Hand is on your list and you should (?) go hog-wild with it. (??? Maybe this is a mid-low strategy, after all Spectral Hand only conveys spells up to 4th level)

Other points of interest to me are when I look at the first level spell list, and then I look at charnel touch, pretty much all your offensive spells are either worse than charnel touch, or only better by a tiny margin - which makes them kind of pointless....

...unless you can 'stack' Charnel Touch on top of other touch spells! Of course you cannot (normally) use multiple touch spells (but see Spell Flower), but Charnel Touch isn't a spell or even an SP, it is an SU!

... other things to consider in this are whether you can stack Charnel Touch _damage_ when you use Scabrous and Enervating Touch (or whether they override the damage with their particular effect). And if it is a standard action to use Charnel Touch then that effectively gimps the low level Dread Necro (though depending on interpretations you may be allowed to use two rounds, one to cast the touch spell (and hold it) and then the next to use your Charnel Touch and deliver the 'double whammy').

At low levels not being able to combine your charnel touch and spell casting is enough (in my mind) to knock it back from tier 3 to tier 4.

... in which case the touch spells you want to be casting are the ones with which (may or may not) spread over multiple rounds, e.g. Chill Touch. So a level 3 DN could cast Chill Touch and hit with it on round 1, and then in the subsequent two rounds† use Charnel Touch and get the Chill Touch as a freebie.

Other low level tactics can involve summoning skeletons. Their duration is terrible, and their HP look low, but their DR makes them surprisingly durable against low level opponents. If summoning zombies instead, be aware that they can charge (it is pretty much their only(?) viable combat tactic).

You kind of have to make up your mind what you're going to do at low levels, are you going to get in close and zap people with your touch attack, or are you going to stand back and do ranged attacks (e.g. minions).

Other things to consider: Slaymate? Y/N (from the book of bad latin), Cantrips? Y/N Their omission seems odd - even Duskblades get cantrips. Apart from Paladins and Rangers, I can't think of any other spell casting base class that doesn't get cantrips. Maybe it's just that the pickings for Necromancy cantrips are so thin on the ground, or perhaps that Disrupt Undead simply emphasises how weak their level 1 casting really is.

Depending on your WBL you may be able to get minions a little earlier than level 8 (by which time they're starting to fall behind anyway unless you pull some nifty tricks). One way would be with an Animate Dead scroll. Now either you can get a cleric to make you a Divine one and plop some ranks into UMD (cross-class unfortunately), or you can get the more expensive Arcane version - 700gp + material component cost. Unfortunately you have to guess what total levels of undead you're going to raise in advance because the Onyx cost get baked in.

And it sounds like you will have a section on fear stacking. This would be good because it isn't obvious which fear spells (if any) can be spammed in order to bump their terror up to the maximum (whatever that is), or whether they come under the 'multiple effects from the same source do not stack' rules.

[TheJake]

And I strongly disagree with this. It
So yes, you become a lich. It even references the page number for the Lich entry, and stating that he doesn't have to pay for his phylactery. So I really don't see how you can argue that he doesn't.


There was a CustServ ruling on the old Wizards board. You're being selective with the text too. Exact wording says undead type + phylactery.

I don't disagree with your interpretation though :P and what was RAI. But when it comes to RAW, CustServ have spoken.

Check the old DN handbook for a place to start if you're keen to see it for yourself, I think that has the exact ruling if I recall - but its pretty well known by now.


DR doesn't stack. It never stacks. So the DR 15 Bludgeoning AND Magic overwrites your current DR 8. Your immunities overwrite your resistances.

Pretty sure the DRs were different types - hence my question, but I am AFB for now so I'm going from memory. Mea culpa if I got this wrong.

- J.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There was a CustServ ruling on the old Wizards board. You're being selective with the text too. Exact wording says undead type + phylactery. I would certainly hope that, being a litch, I become undead.


I don't disagree with your interpretation though :P and what was RAI. But when it comes to RAW, CustServ have spoken.

Check the old DN handbook for a place to start if you're keen to see it for yourself, I think that has the exact ruling if I recall - but its pretty well known by now.Since when was CustServ RAW? It is no more accurate than asking any other outsourced customer service for tech support, although at least you don't have to have to puzzle through the accent.

It explicitly states you turn into a litch. It explicitly states you get a phylactery with no cost. The ONLY critter known who has a phylactery is... a lich.

The person who typed out the CustServ response was clearly not bothering to read the ability.


Pretty sure the DRs were different types - hence my question, but I am AFB for now so I'm going from memory. Mea culpa if I got this wrong.

- J.

DR's from different types overlap, but do not stack. And they are, in fact, the same: Bludgeoning and magic.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Great to see this! I love Necromancers in general, so I'll throw in my two bits. Take them as you will.

Another cool (and extremely broken) combination for the metamagicking Dread Necro is the exploitation of the spell Ghoul Glyph. Add on Rapid Spell, Reach Spell, and (possibly) Chain Spell. This will let you paralyze (no save) one enemy (or more if chained). If you're already playing with Black Lore of Moril and Fell Drain/Frighten, you might as well add them on.

The Dread Necromancer's Fear Aura is surprisingly potent at low levels. You're still at the point where you will most likely be resorting to melee, whether to use touch spells or your charnel touch. At 5th level, when you get the Fear Aura, you can use simple Demoralization on any shaken enemies to make them flee you. You can get an AoO when he tries to flee. That, or just use Never Outnumbered to make them all shaken/frightened. And at 6th level, when you can grab Imperious Command, it's even better.

There is some ritual in an Ebberon book, of which I can't remember the name, that does 2 Con damage to you in exchange for adding your Charisma to your HP, adds 1 to your CL for necromancy effects, and adds one to your effective rebuking level. And, as you're going to undeadify yourself before too long, this is a great benefit for no cost. And you may be able to stack it, which would be insane.

You might want to add a list of nice Advanced Learning Spells.

Also, your recommendations on spells to Spellstitch.


But anyway, thanks again for animating up this guide for us.

[NecroRick]

Lich Transformation: When a dread necromancer attains 20th level, she undergoes a hideous transformation and becomes a lich. Her type changes to undead, and she gains all the traits of the undead (see page 317 of the Monster Manual). She no longer has a Constitution score, all her existing Hit Dice become d12s, and she must reroll her hit points. A dread necromancer need not pay experience points or gold to create her phylactery.
A dread necromancer who is not humanoid does not gain this class feature.


(a) On the table and in the text the relevant class feature is called Lich Transformation
(b) it says you undergo a transformation and become a lich (surprise!)
(c) you become undead
(d) you (also) gain all the traits of the undead as outlined on p317 of MM)
(e) you don't need to pay to create a phylactery
(f) doesn't work if you're not humanoid

Seems fairly clear cut to me.

In fact, as written it also seems to work even if you are (for instance) a Necropolitan when you hit level 20, since you're still a humanoid. I guess you just magically upgrade (transform even) from a weaker form of undead into a stronger one. <- That's the sort of thing I'd expect arguments about, not about whether "Lich Transformation" transforms you into a lich or not.

----

I find it funny how willing people are to throw away cust serve's rulings one minute, and then treat them like holy scripture the next.

Take Arcane Thesis for instance. Cust serve (or the FAQ or whatever) ruled that (just like every other metamagic reducer in the whole game) it doesn't stack with itself (duh!). But players want to hold onto their broken-ness despite that being clearly the correct ruling, so they yell abuse at cust serve, and cherry pick from among conflicting interpretations to whatever suits them best.

Now, in the face of a clearly wrong ruling (just how stupid do they have to be to say that Lich Transformation doesn't involve actually becoming a Lich anyway??) all of a sudden cust serve's word is inviolate?

[NecroRick]

DR's from different types overlap, but do not stack. And they are, in fact, the same: Bludgeoning and magic.

The Warlock's DR appears to stack with the DR from the Fey Heritage chain. (???)

[TheJake]

I would certainly hope that, being a litch, I become undead.

Since when was CustServ RAW? It is no more accurate than asking any other outsourced customer service for tech support, although at least you don't have to have to puzzle through the accent.

It explicitly states you turn into a litch. It explicitly states you get a phylactery with no cost. The ONLY critter known who has a phylactery is... a lich.

The person who typed out the CustServ response was clearly not bothering to read the ability.

There's a running joke in Australia with our tax office - if you're not happy with the answer you get when you call up to ask a question, just call back later and ask again. :P

I kinda view Cust Serv rulings like that.

Thankfully I have sane GMs so the whole thing is moot.

- J.

[TheJake]

The Warlock's DR appears to stack with the DR from the Fey Heritage chain. (???)

Pretty sure it explicitly calls it out in the feat as an exception though.

- J.

[*.*.*.*]

I've never heard Dread Necro called Tier 4. It's pretty much the quintessential Tier 3 caster, second only to the Beguiler.

This^

Please fix it in the original post

[Daftendirekt]

There's already a Dread Necro handbook anyway. This guy did it first, and he did it better (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook).

[faceroll]

Kobold - Depends on how cheese-tolerant your group is. Dragonwrought Loredrake can be just as broken for Dread Necromancers as they are for Sorcerers.

Incorrect.
Dragonwrought kobold lets you trade in your first level feat for +3 to all mental scores. Cool, but hardly game breaking.

Loredrake adds +2 to your sorcerer level. Sorcerer is a class, much like Dread Necromancer is a class, but they are not the same class. It won't stack. Having sorcerer2//Dread Necromancer is a hell of a lot less broken than having 6th level sorcerer casting at 4th level.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Having been researching the Dread Necromancer for a couple of weeks for an upcoming game I am in, I was excited to see this on the thread list, but most of the information can be found in the handbooks that already exist.

I also am going to say this Dread Necro is indeed an eight level class. After that just Prc out into something else that suits your purposes.

A great one level dip for the Dread Necro is Cloister Cleric. Adds an extra turn pool, in case you wanted to DMM, gives you three free domains, gives you access to spell trigger items from one of the, IMHO, greatest spell lists out there and gets you +2 Fort and Will.

So something like Cloister Cleric 1/Dread Necromancer 8/Full Casting Prc 11 could yield a lot of potential.

[aazru]

Does Nacrotic Focus(Libris mortis) work with dread necromancer's enervating touch(lesser ones too)?

If you Haunt Shift Slaymate does aura still work?

[TheJake]

(a) On the table and in the text the relevant class feature is called Lich Transformation
(b) it says you undergo a transformation and become a lich (surprise!)
(c) you become undead
(d) you (also) gain all the traits of the undead as outlined on p317 of MM)
(e) you don't need to pay to create a phylactery
(f) doesn't work if you're not humanoid

Seems fairly clear cut to me.

In fact, as written it also seems to work even if you are (for instance) a Necropolitan when you hit level 20, since you're still a humanoid. I guess you just magically upgrade (transform even) from a weaker form of undead into a stronger one. <- That's the sort of thing I'd expect arguments about, not about whether "Lich Transformation" transforms you into a lich or not.

----

I find it funny how willing people are to throw away cust serve's rulings one minute, and then treat them like holy scripture the next.

Take Arcane Thesis for instance. Cust serve (or the FAQ or whatever) ruled that (just like every other metamagic reducer in the whole game) it doesn't stack with itself (duh!). But players want to hold onto their broken-ness despite that being clearly the correct ruling, so they yell abuse at cust serve, and cherry pick from among conflicting interpretations to whatever suits them best.

Now, in the face of a clearly wrong ruling (just how stupid do they have to be to say that Lich Transformation doesn't involve actually becoming a Lich anyway??) all of a sudden cust serve's word is inviolate?

I only point out the CustServ ruling because so many do treat their advice as gospel. I really don't give care and neither do my DMs. We make our own decision and have close to a decade of minor houserules for D&D 3.0/3.5 now.

Unfortunately CharOp requires RAW to establish a definitive measure so we all have the same yardstick. But real CharOp (IMHO) requires that houserules are made all the time and can/should assist with it. That and its one of the golden rules of CharOp (otherwise its essentially 'cheating (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18835842/The_Character_Optimization_Board_FAQ_%28Link_to_Li brary%29)'):



Changing the rules is kind of a sticky subject for min/maxing. Technically if you just change the rules then you are not truly min/maxing. Then again if your DM has made the changes and you are just exploiting them, then that should be considered min/maxing. To make things even more murky there are some common house rules included in discussions of min/maxing.


BTW I was of the opinion Arcane Thesis did stack with itself, it just can't reduce it below 1, but now I'm digressing... I might be confusing that with Metamagic School Focus.

- J.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

There's already a Dread Necro handbook anyway. This guy did it first, and he did it better (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872470/New_Dread_Necromancer_Handbook).

And I strongly disagree. It has a bunch of crap that isn't useful, and doesn't have any way of optimizing what you get out of your class.


Having been researching the Dread Necromancer for a couple of weeks for an upcoming game I am in, I was excited to see this on the thread list, but most of the information can be found in the handbooks that already exist.

I also am going to say this Dread Necro is indeed an eight level class. After that just Prc out into something else that suits your purposes.

A great one level dip for the Dread Necro is Cloister Cleric. Adds an extra turn pool, in case you wanted to DMM, gives you three free domains, gives you access to spell trigger items from one of the, IMHO, greatest spell lists out there and gets you +2 Fort and Will.

So something like Cloister Cleric 1/Dread Necromancer 8/Full Casting Prc 11 could yield a lot of potential.

Not really. You forget that Dread Necromancer's Undead Mastery only multiplies your charisma bonus into your HD cap for Dread Necromancer class levels. So you're basically quartering the HD cap of Rebuke/Control undead.

If you were going to do that, just pick up Corpsecrafter, and proceed from there. That way, you don't have to take 8 levels of Dread Necro. After all, if that is your opinion, then clearly you might as well take Wizard7/Cloistered Cleric1/Full Casting PrC12 and be done with it.

Most arcane casting PrC's don't advance both turning and casting, and provide something actually relevant. Heck, you can get metamagic reducers without needing to go into Incantatrix, so not even that is absolutely astonishing (although it might help with feat tax).

And by ditching at 8, you miss out on Aura of Terror for just flat out making opponents Panicked with your aura (unless you ditch out at 7, then come back after four levels of spellcasting advancement)

If you think the other guide had more information, then either you didn't browse very deeply, or you just didn't care to read what was there. Included are methods to turn DMM back on, example builds, how to optimize your fear aura, details on how to optimize Enervation to one-round kill anything not immune to negative levels, and how to deliver unresistable negative levels to broad swaths of opponents... by level 4.

Also, a one-level dip in Cloistered Cleric is okay, if you're wanting to pick up Deathbound and Planning domains, so certain builds are less feat strapped, but you're rarely that strapped on turn attempts that a dip is necessary for more of them.

[Amphetryon]

Fear effects become considerably less useful in my experience beyond level 8ish, so the Aura of Terror is relegated to being more niche-case than the earlier aura.


If you think the other guide had more information, then either you didn't browse very deeply, or you just didn't care to read what was there. Included are methods to turn DMM back on, example builds, how to optimize your fear aura, details on how to optimize Enervation to one-round kill anything not immune to negative levels, and how to deliver unresistable negative levels to broad swaths of opponents... by level 4.
My emphasis. I've read the other one before, several times. DN's probably my favorite base class. Disagreeing with your opinion does not by default make me an inattentive or uncaring reader. The highlighted language comes across as very high-handed, from my POV.

[sreservoir]

really, loredrake isn't the only useful sovereign archetype. most of the others add cleric spells as arcane spells, and one adds druid. this is really, really helpful to list-casters -- it's like rainbow warmage with less class investment.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Fear effects become considerably less useful in my experience beyond level 8ish, so the Aura of Terror is relegated to being more niche-case than the earlier aura.Dread Witch disagrees with you. So does Animate Dread Warrior, which turns your minions into things *FAR* more powerful than the party tank is. Even if he *IS* an ubercharger.


My emphasis. I've read the other one before, several times. DN's probably my favorite base class. Disagreeing with your opinion does not by default make me an inattentive or uncaring reader. The highlighted language comes across as very high-handed, from my POV.

So have I. It never mentions how to stack a quarter of the things I've already included. I apologize if it sounds high handed, but your statement sounded like you didn't bother reading the guide before posting, which also comes off as highly insulting.

[Thespianus]

Sweet Handbook. I've never really looked at the DN before ( Kinda prefer "good"-type of characters) but this made me re-read the class and enjoy the Handbook.

I love Handbooks. Yumm, yumm. :smallsmile:

[Amphetryon]

Dread Witch disagrees with you. So does Animate Dread Warrior, which turns your minions into things *FAR* more powerful than the party tank is. Even if he *IS* an ubercharger.I was unaware that Dread Witch was part of the class features of Dread Necromancer's higher levels to which you were referring. EDIT: Oh. And a spell from outside the Dread Necromancer's base list. My mistake. Carry on.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I was unaware that Dread Witch was part of the class features of Dread Necromancer's higher levels to which you were referring. My mistake. Carry on.

There's some sample builds in the third post which describe various means of utilizing class abilities. The first one posted, The Scarecrow, does precisely this.

Then there's one which optimizes Fell X + Kelgore's Grave Mist for no save, no SR damage output.

Then there's also a build which focuses on being the Mailman of negative levels, using some of the same tactics to do stupid things with Enervation.

Give 'em a look, you might like what you find.

[deuxhero]

Could use an "items" section.

[The Underlord]

Doesnt piercing cold only bypass immunities to cold damage?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Doesnt piercing cold only bypass immunities to cold damage?

Yes it does. However, by doing so, it automatically damages anything, and thus Fell X spells can be applied. By applying Lord of the Uttercold, half of the damage becomes negative energy, which then heals undead, who have a Net Sum Zero damage applied to them.

Also, Kelgore's Grave Mist does... cold damage. Hey, I see some synergy here...


Could use an "items" section.

That's coming up next. But really, other than the desecrate ring and a slaymate... toys are largely optional. Sure, cracksticks if you're really leveraging your DMM shenanigans, maybe a Metamagic Rod if you are feat-tight. But I can't think of much else that's really necessary.

[The Underlord]

But things immune to fear and mind-affecting are still immune to it, so it doesnt affect everything.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

But things immune to fear and mind-affecting are still immune to it, so it doesnt affect everything.

Look up the Dread Witch again. Look up how it bypasses fear immunities. Have fun.

[Urpriest]

But things immune to fear and mind-affecting are still immune to it, so it doesnt affect everything.

Plus cold subtype creatures aren't affected by Piercing Cold. But this is a more minor point.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Plus cold subtype creatures aren't affected by Piercing Cold. But this is a more minor point.

This is a valid point, and I should probably go back and include this caveat.

[Hadessniper]

Being the Wisconsin boy I am I'm going to bring the cheese.

**Warning cheese of this level will get things thrown at you**

Get yourself the pipes of the sewers, they will give you control of 1d3 rat swarms that don't poof when they die. Command them to walk into a bag of holding then close the bag and wait an hour for them all to suffocate. You now have 300-900 rat corpses. Animate them into little 1d4 HD skeletons and combine those countless minion with the tomb-tainted soul & destructive retribution feats.

Each rat skeleton is now a 1d6 negative energy bomb with 1-3 HP. Get a swarm of them, order them to cover an enemy, then have your wizard cast fireball for massive amounts of damage. Damage that would heal you and your undead minions. If you keep say 10 rats on your person at all times anytime you take an AOE attack you will heal 10d6 HP. Directable bombs and instant healing for the price of some feats you would most likely have taken anyway and 1k for a set of pipes of the sewers.

[Bill Bisco]

I think it's worth making a build and noting the potential of Being an Illumian with Southern Magician. That means plenty of Persisted Spells. Also take note of the ability to go into Chameleon as well. A Cloistered Cleric 1/ DN 4/ Chameleon 10 or DN 5 / Chameleon 10 . Take a look at Shroudcrown from Player's Guide to Faerun, very expensive but it explicitly lets you turn as a 10th level Cleric.

You talk a lot about Dragonfire Inspiration without explicitly calling out what it is. I'd be more tempted to Suggest DN 4 / Bard 1/ Chameleon 5

At 10th level you Persist Bardic Chorus from Complete Mage which continues your bardic music effect for you. So you can boost up your undead with Dragonfire Inspiration all day and every day.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Being the Wisconsin boy I am I'm going to bring the cheese.

**Warning cheese of this level will get things thrown at you**

Get yourself the pipes of the sewers, they will give you control of 1d3 rat swarms that don't poof when they die. Command them to walk into a bag of holding then close the bag and wait an hour for them all to suffocate. You now have 300-900 rat corpses. Animate them into little 1d4 HD skeletons and combine those countless minion with the tomb-tainted soul & destructive retribution feats.

Each rat skeleton is now a 1d6 negative energy bomb with 1-3 HP. Get a swarm of them, order them to cover an enemy, then have your wizard cast fireball for massive amounts of damage. Damage that would heal you and your undead minions. If you keep say 10 rats on your person at all times anytime you take an AOE attack you will heal 10d6 HP. Directable bombs and instant healing for the price of some feats you would most likely have taken anyway and 1k for a set of pipes of the sewers.

Very nice trick! Personally, what I'd do is summon the swarms, cast Fell Animate Kelgore's Grave Mist on them. Rats all die quickly and painfully, then turn into zombies without having to blow a ton of Onyx on them. You got it dead on with Destructive Retribution, though.

I think it's worth making a build and noting the potential of Being an Illumian with Southern Magician. That means plenty of Persisted Spells. Also take note of the ability to go into Chameleon as well. A Cloistered Cleric 1/ DN 4/ Chameleon 10 or DN 5 / Chameleon 10 . Take a look at Shroudcrown from Player's Guide to Faerun, very expensive but it explicitly lets you turn as a 10th level Cleric.

You talk a lot about Dragonfire Inspiration without explicitly calling out what it is. I'd be more tempted to Suggest DN 4 / Bard 1/ Chameleon 5

At 10th level you Persist Bardic Chorus from Complete Mage which continues your bardic music effect for you. So you can boost up your undead with Dragonfire Inspiration all day and every day.

Err... I did actually make a build noting the potential of Illumian. That only means 2 persisted spells per day with NaenHoon. If you're going to do more than that, then go Human for the bonus feat to pick up Southern Magician and DMM.

What does Chameleon bring to the table that is worth slaughtering your spell and turning progression for?

And I'd rather own an undead Bard than try to be one myself. The builds are feat strapped enough without needing that extra burden. That way you don't NEED to persist it, since your undead bard can play all day long for you.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

And I strongly disagree. It has a bunch of crap that isn't useful, and doesn't have any way of optimizing what you get out of your class.


Not really. You forget that Dread Necromancer's Undead Mastery only multiplies your charisma bonus into your HD cap for Dread Necromancer class levels. So you're basically quartering the HD cap of Rebuke/Control undead.

If you were going to do that, just pick up Corpsecrafter, and proceed from there. That way, you don't have to take 8 levels of Dread Necro. After all, if that is your opinion, then clearly you might as well take Wizard7/Cloistered Cleric1/Full Casting PrC12 and be done with it.


I forgot nothing. This class is very SAD. So at level 20 you can/should have a Charisma around 34-36, that's a +12-13 Cha modifier. ((4+12)*8)+(4*12))= 176, 176/4= 44. Do you really need more Undead than a level 44 character at level 20? If you have a template that boosts Cha by 2, you are controlling the same amount of Undead as a level 46 character. If you can't make due with that amount of undead you have a problem. Even though you would get the same amount of undead as a level 80 (or 85) character at level 20 you don't need that many.


Most arcane casting PrC's don't advance both turning and casting, and provide something actually relevant. Heck, you can get metamagic reducers without needing to go into Incantatrix, so not even that is absolutely astonishing (although it might help with feat tax).

I will give you that, but most builds that have either Turn/Rebuke undead also have DMM, a Dread Necro build should be no different.


And by ditching at 8, you miss out on Aura of Terror for just flat out making opponents Panicked with your aura (unless you ditch out at 7, then come back after four levels of spellcasting advancement)

If you go straight Dread Necro, people are immune to fear by that point and the effect becomes useless. If you went Dread Necro 7/Dread Witch 5/Dread Necro 1 you are 13th level, two levels off of Mind Blank which shuts down your fear effects (If my reading was correct). Also at level 12 or 13 why would you be in melee distance anyway?


If you think the other guide had more information, then either you didn't browse very deeply, or you just didn't care to read what was there. Included are methods to turn DMM back on, example builds, how to optimize your fear aura, details on -how to optimize Enervation to one-round kill anything not immune to negative levels, and how to deliver unresistable negative levels to broad swaths of opponents... by level 4.

My original post was before you had finished a major section of the handbook ((the advanced learning (which is very nice by the way)), but using Southern Magician or if Dragon is allowed Alternate Source Spell are well known tactics of getting Divine/Arcane spells if you don't have them, but it is good that you put it down for those who don't know. The fear aura is nice but I would add more about how to maximize its potential. I would suggest adding Imperious Command to the list of feats along with Dreadful wrath, helps skimmers see that fear is useful (link to a good fear handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) if you want to add it somewhere for reference)), and your Enervation trick in the Dread Necro 20 build doesn't work, not at all. Slaymate only reduces the total cost by one, not one for every meta-magic you slap on.

"Any creature within the aura that
uses a metamagic feat on a spell from the school of necromancy
can prepare or use the spell as if it took up a spell slot one level
lower than what the metamagic necromancy spell would
normally require."

It says nothing about reducing the metamagic cost of metamagic effect put onto a necromancy spell, just says that you can prepare/use it as one level lower than normal.


Also, a one-level dip in Cloistered Cleric is okay, if you're wanting to pick up Deathbound and Planning domains, so certain builds are less feat strapped, but you're rarely that strapped on turn attempts that a dip is necessary for more of them.

That is why I suggested it really, getting extra turning and extend spell is nice.

Looking over the Handbook again before I post this I saw the Mindbender part. You can get charm person if you have the charm domain from a CC dip (hurray for multi purpose dips) but if you also want to keep extra turning and extend spell (if you took them) if you can manage to get yourself a 1/day item of change domain you can get rid of knowledge domain to grab the charm domain to qualify for Mindbender.

[Hadessniper]

Very nice trick! Personally, what I'd do is summon the swarms, cast Fell Animate Kelgore's Grave Mist on them. Rats all die quickly and painfully, then turn into zombies without having to blow a ton of Onyx on them. You got it dead on with Destructive Retribution, though.

Summon swarm has a duration so the creatures despawn when they die. Fell animate could work, but personally I find that that feat is generally a trap. Nine times out of ten you'll want skeletons so the cash you'll save really isn't worth the feat you'll lose.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I forgot nothing. This class is very SAD. So at level 20 you can/should have a Charisma around 34-36, that's a +12-13 Cha modifier. ((4+12)*8)+(4*12))= 176, 176/4= 44. Do you really need more Undead than a level 44 character at level 20? If you have a template that boosts Cha by 2, you are controlling the same amount of Undead as a level 46 character. If you can't make due with that amount of undead you have a problem. Even though you would get the same amount of undead as a level 80 (or 85) character at level 20 you don't need that many. Somtimes it's a matter of quality rather than quantity. Rather than having an unwieldy army of lesser minions, you could take Animate Dread Warrior as your 12th level Advanced Learning spell, which nets you the ability to have a few very high level undead with powerful abilities. You know, if your GM throws an Ubercharger at you... slay it instantly and Animate Dread Warrior. now you have an Ubercharger at your beck and call. Repeat as necessary. Instead of hundreds of lesser minions, I've got a half-dozen high-level very powerful undead.


I will give you that, but most builds that have either Turn/Rebuke undead also have DMM, a Dread Necro build should be no different. And I disagree with this, simply because the Dread Necro has the resources and tools to get more out of Turn/Rebuke than DMM.


If you go straight Dread Necro, people are immune to fear by that point and the effect becomes useless. If you went Dread Necro 7/Dread Witch 5/Dread Necro 1 you are 13th level, two levels off of Mind Blank which shuts down your fear effects (If my reading was correct). Also at level 12 or 13 why would you be in melee distance anyway? Dread Witch. Never lets you down. Bypasses immunities handily.


I would suggest adding Imperious Command to the list of feats along with Dreadful wrath, helps skimmers see that fear is useful (link to a good fear handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) if you want to add it somewhere for reference)), and your Enervation trick in the Dread Necro 20 build doesn't work, not at all. Slaymate only reduces the total cost by one, not one for every meta-magic you slap on. Imperious Command is a huge, honking TRAP. It tricks you into spending actions on things you don't need to spend actions on. Heck, get the spell Imperious Glare to do the same thing, only better, without the feat investment, from Advanced Learning.

You may be right about the Slaymate, I will adjust the build accordingly. It'll still pull it off, mind you, it just needs some things shifted around a bit.


That is why I suggested it really, getting extra turning and extend spell is nice.

Looking over the Handbook again before I post this I saw the Mindbender part. You can get charm person if you have the charm domain from a CC dip (hurray for multi purpose dips) but if you also want to keep extra turning and extend spell (if you took them) if you can manage to get yourself a 1/day item of change domain you can get rid of knowledge domain to grab the charm domain to qualify for Mindbender.

In exchange for losing caster levels? I dunno... pretty steep cost, even so. Heck, just by choosing the right type of undead to be can net you Charm Person. It's not that hard to pick up. And then you have to decide between Charm or Planning or Deathbound... plenty of choices if you want to do that. Charm is fairly minor on that list.

If you do dip Cleric, though, you might as well simply go through the motions and net yourself a few True Necro levels for Zone of Desecration.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Somtimes it's a matter of quality rather than quantity. Rather than having an unwieldy army of lesser minions, you could take Animate Dread Warrior as your 12th level Advanced Learning spell, which nets you the ability to have a few very high level undead with powerful abilities. You know, if your GM throws an Ubercharger at you... slay it instantly and Animate Dread Warrior. now you have an Ubercharger at your beck and call. Repeat as necessary. Instead of hundreds of lesser minions, I've got a half-dozen high-level very powerful undead.

The thing is, even if you have the undead of "only" a 44th level caster, you'll have more than enough space for a half-dozen undead of equal level to you.


And I disagree with this, simply because the Dread Necro has the resources and tools to get more out of Turn/Rebuke than DMM.

The thing that I love about using Turn/Rebuke for DMM is that, if you foresee yourself actually using your Rebuke, you can leave a few uses open in addition to the ones you use for Persisting or whatever.


Imperious Command is a huge, honking TRAP. It tricks you into spending actions on things you don't need to spend actions on. Heck, get the spell Imperious Glare to do the same thing, only better, without the feat investment, from Advanced Learning.

Can you explain this? It has always seemed to be an awesome, amazing feat to me...spend 5k for Fearsome armor, maybe another item enhancing intimidate, and you can cower-lock any opponent not immune to fear, while still taking standard actions.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Can you explain this? It has always seemed to be an awesome, amazing feat to me...spend 5k for Fearsome armor, maybe another item enhancing intimidate, and you can cower-lock any opponent not immune to fear, while still taking standard actions.

Because with Aura of Terror, you can cower-lock everything without needing to spend ANY actions. So... not spending actions vs spending a feat and spending actions... which would you rather do?

Or, if you prefer, you can get the spell Imperious Glare to cower-lock everything in the area, rather than single target, for rounds/level instead of one round, and thanks to Dread Witch, you're bypassing immunities. All that... for an Advanced Learning.

So, either way... Imperious Command really doesn't have anything to offer you that you already get better, more powerful, and easier.

[TheJake]

I am not convinced of the superiority of Kelgor's Grave Mist as an Advanced Learning (i.e. for my necrogish) when compared to the likes of the awesomesauce of Shivering Touch (especially continuing your cold theme).

Anyone care to comment on this one?

EDIT:
I think its better with the Minionmaster build - much more utility, especially with Fell Animate. But I'd rather Shivering Touch + Fell Animate my dragons.

- J.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I am not convinced of the superiority of Kelgor's Grave Mist as an Advanced Learning (i.e. for my necrogish) when compared to the likes of the awesomesauce of Shivering Touch (especially continuing your cold theme).

Anyone care to comment on this one?

EDIT:
I think its better with the Minionmaster build - much more utility, especially with Fell Animate. But I'd rather Shivering Touch + Fell Animate my dragons.

- J.

Isn't Shivering Touch a 3rd level spell and your Advanced Learning at level 4 and thus only able to get 2nd level spells?

Granted, it's a perfectly viable option at level 8, assuming you're not picking up Aura of Terror at that point due to PrCing, but it's not accessible at that point.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Kelgore's Grave Mist = (best?) trigger for zombie bat-bombs. Destruction Retribution is a great thing on tiny (or smaller) low HD creatures.

[TheJake]

Isn't Shivering Touch a 3rd level spell and your Advanced Learning at level 4 and thus only able to get 2nd level spells?

Granted, it's a perfectly viable option at level 8, assuming you're not picking up Aura of Terror at that point due to PrCing, but it's not accessible at that point.

I... *checks books* you're right on Shivering Touch. I might take that as a later spell learning. But between that and Animate Dread Warrior, its a tough call...

Oh btw, Flash Frost Spell feat requires Con 13. No can do if Necropolitan.

EDIT:
If I use the necrogish build here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11741658) this is the Advanced Learnings I'm thinking of:

DN4: Kelgore's Grave Mist
DN8(12th lvl): Aura of Terror
DN12(16th lvl): Animate Dread Warrior
DN16(20th lvl): Awaken Undead

Ok, his learnings don't really capitalise on the fear that much. But Animate Dread Warrior and Awaken Undead are too damned cool to pass up, especially if I become a Spellstitched Necropolitan.

I could always use Necrotic Skullbomb or that functions exactly Evard's Black Tentacles but deals negative energy damage. Those would work better better with Fell Drain though but I'm not sure how that would work, given you need to deal 'damage' and not 'drain' for Fell Drain to kick in...

- J.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I... *checks books* you're right on Shivering Touch. I might take that as a later spell learning. But between that and Animate Dread Warrior, its a tough call...

Oh btw, Flash Frost Spell feat requires Con 13. No can do if Necropolitan.

- J.

Page 91 of PhB II... I see no Con requirements. In fact, it has NO requirements so far as I can tell.

[TheJake]

Page 91 of PhB II... I see no Con requirements. In fact, it has NO requirements so far as I can tell.

Urgghh I'm reading wrong thing, and its late in my timezone. Ignore my ramblings. Good night.

- J.

[monkey3]

It is Snowcasting which requires 13 con. (Prereq?)

My favorite race for Dread Necro is Hellbred. It gives:
Free telepathy (at level 15)
+2 chr at the cost of -2 con. Do I care about con if I am going undead?
Cool fluff.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It is Snowcasting which requires 13 con. (Prereq?)

My favorite race for Dread Necro is Hellbred. It gives:
Free telepathy (at level 15)
+2 chr at the cost of -2 con. Do I care about con if I am going undead?
Cool fluff.

Snowcasting just turns any spell into a cold spell. Since Kelgore's Grave mist is already a Cold spell, it doesn't need it.

Hellbred... where is that from again?

[aazru]

Hellbred... where is that from again?

Fiendish Codex 2?

[Greenish]

Grand to have a guide for DN at last.

However, a few nitpicks:

AzurianAzurin.


Kobold - Depends on how cheese-tolerant your group is. Dragonwrought can be powerful, but Loredrake explicitly calls out Sorcerer levels, not just spontaneous caster levels, which puts a damper on things. Still, Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold = +6 to all mental stats, including Charisma, for no real loss.Loredrake isn't the only sovereign archetype (Wyrm of War or Flame of Forge may be useful for DN, depending on focus, for example), and venerable is only +3 to mentals.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Grand to have a guide for DN at last.

However, a few nitpicks:
Azurin.Fix'd. Thanks.


Loredrake isn't the only sovereign archetype (Wyrm of War or Flame of Forge may be useful for DN, depending on focus, for example), and venerable is only +3 to mentals.

Venerable is +3, and Dragonwrought is another +3, for a total of +6. I will have to look up the other sovereign archetypes and see what might be useful.

Also updated: Dips and Splashes!

[Greenish]

Venerable is +3, and Dragonwrought is another +3, for a total of +6.My copy of RotD doesn't say anything about Dragonwrought giving bonuses to any stats. :smallconfused:

[Edit]:
I will have to look up the other sovereign archetypes and see what might be useful.That'd be nifty, and I'd also like to see Dragon Compendium's bloodline feats mentioned, they're such an easy way to expand your spell list.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My copy of RotD doesn't say anything about Dragonwrought giving bonuses to any stats. :smallconfused:Hmm... I wonder where I got that idea from... probably from the fact that you don't get any aging penalties, and so EVERY Dragonwrought ever built is Venerable, then tried to stack it on itself... Blarg, changing that. Thanks.


[Edit]: That'd be nifty, and I'd also like to see Dragon Compendium's bloodline feats mentioned, they're such an easy way to expand your spell list.

I'm... leery of adding what is tantamount to published homebrew to what should be a Newbie Guide.

[Greenish]

I'm... leery of adding what is tantamount to published homebrew to what should be a Newbie Guide.It's official D&D material, says so right in the cover. :smalltongue:

Anyway, it's not worse really any worse than other splats.

[NecroRick]

I forgot nothing. This class is very SAD. So at level 20 you can/should have a Charisma around 34-36,


Stupid question time: can someone break that down for me?

I start with an 18
I get +5 from level ups
I get +6 from an item that provides an enhancement bonus to charisma...

I'm still 6 short of the target. What am I missing? Some other item? A way of boosting cha which isn't an enhancement bonus?

[sreservoir]

Stupid question time: can someone break that down for me?

I start with an 18
I get +5 from level ups
I get +6 from an item that provides an enhancement bonus to charisma...

I'm still 6 short of the target. What am I missing? Some other item? A way of boosting cha which isn't an enhancement bonus?

18 + 5 level + 6 item (enh) + 5 tome (inherent) + 3 age + 2 racial + 2 mushroom powder drug (alchemical) = 41

[NecroRick]

18 + 5 level + 6 item (enh) + 5 tome (inherent) + 3 age + 2 racial + 2 mushroom powder drug (alchemical) = 41

Thanks! Much appreciated.

[Vizzerdrix]

Can Versatile Spellcaster qualify you for Southern Magician at level 1? If so, would this work, or am I crazy?

Dread Necro human with 2 flaws nets you 4 feats at level 1.
Versatile Spellcaster, Fell Animate, DMM and Southern Magician.

Buy a dog or mule, then kill it with a Fell animate Inflict moderate. Tadaa! Zombie meat shield at level 1, yes?

No room for Tomb tainted soul though :smallfrown:

[TheJake]

Can Versatile Spellcaster qualify you for Southern Magician at level 1? If so, would this work, or am I crazy?

Dread Necro human with 2 flaws nets you 4 feats at level 1.
Versatile Spellcaster, Fell Animate, DMM and Southern Magician.

Buy a dog or mule, then kill it with a Fell animate Inflict moderate. Tadaa! Zombie meat shield at level 1, yes?

No room for Tomb tainted soul though :smallfrown:

Technically I am sure CustServ ruled that you cannot cast a spell beyond your normal casting but sincemost of the CharOp boards seem to dismiss this, yeah sure, why not. The real question is why would you? It might be viable in a low level environment but the problem you face is that the build doesn't scale well unless your DM permits feat retraining.

- J.

[faceroll]

Technically I am sure CustServ ruled that you cannot cast a spell beyond your normal casting but sincemost of the CharOp boards seem to dismiss this, yeah sure, why not. The real question is why would you? It might be viable in a low level environment but the problem you face is that the build doesn't scale well unless your DM permits feat retraining.

- J.

CustServ made up a rule without any context in the rules. Whether or not you can cast spells higher than your level with metamagic is entirely dependent on your method of metamagic mitigation. There's even a RULES COMPENDIUM, published at the end of 3.5, and that gives no support to what you're claiming.

Feat retraining is very easy without optional rules- Chaos Shuffle & Psychic Reformation both work fine.

[TheJake]

CustServ made up a rule without any context in the rules. Whether or not you can cast spells higher than your level with metamagic is entirely dependent on your method of metamagic mitigation. There's even a RULES COMPENDIUM, published at the end of 3.5, and that gives no support to what you're claiming.

Your selective interpretation of when CustServ is RAW or not, isn't my problem. Unless you're willing to say that CustServ never count as a RAW and that statement is accepted practise for CharOp (which generally isn't on any charop board I've frequented, including Wizards).


Feat retraining is very easy without optional rules- Chaos Shuffle & Psychic Reformation both work fine.

Easy isn't a word I would use but that's is a valid example. Such methods are often banned and trying that would get the book thrown at you at some tables.

In any case, my argument stands: the build functions fine at low levels. Less so at higher levels.

- J.

[Cieyrin]

Interesting read, though the spelling of Lich with a 't' makes me twitch horribly. :smallfrown:

Also, the Scarecrow build mentions Lord of the Uttercold but doesn't actually take it, so...?

[faceroll]

Your selective interpretation of when CustServ is RAW or not, isn't my problem. Unless you're willing to say that CustServ never count as a RAW and that statement is accepted practise for CharOp (which generally isn't on any charop board I've frequented, including Wizards).

I don't know what you're trying to say here. CustServ's rulings are no, in and of themselves, RAW. Sometimes they rule correctly on an issue, much like a monkey on a typewriter can occasionally reproduce a sonnet of Shakespeare.


Easy isn't a word I would use but that's is a valid example. Such methods are often banned and trying that would get the book thrown at you at some tables.

Yes, the game changes when you make up rules.

[AMFV]

Technically I am sure CustServ ruled that you cannot cast a spell beyond your normal casting but sincemost of the CharOp boards seem to dismiss this, yeah sure, why not. The real question is why would you? It might be viable in a low level environment but the problem you face is that the build doesn't scale well unless your DM permits feat retraining.

- J.

I haven't actually seen this ruling. I'm fairly sure they did not rule this, as it would have come up elsewhere. Certain metamagic mitigation feats (Metamagic Song) for example explicitly identify this restriction, others (DMM) explicitly do not. It is not an unreasonable thing to houserule, but RAW is silent on this issue. If you DMM persist a spell that is 2nd level, it's level is not raised, making it still a 2nd level spell, by RAW.

[TheJake]

I was thinking more about additional builds to be included.

Is it worthwhile having a build which maxes out Save or Die spells? Maximising no saves like Enervation seems to be covered already.

- J.

[Pechvarry]

Any plans to add ideal pets to this guide? I've always been interested in the DN, but I'd have to play one with the fewest number of pets possible. And since I can't rationalize just not using my class features to their max potential, I need few, powerful pets.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Any plans to add ideal pets to this guide? I've always been interested in the DN, but I'd have to play one with the fewest number of pets possible. And since I can't rationalize just not using my class features to their max potential, I need few, powerful pets.

Animate Dread Warrior was covered, and is an exellent method of obtaining superior pets which beat out the party tank in terms of ability and stats, since it's pretty much a tank done properly, with bonuses right where you want them, and a whole host of immunities built in.

You are right, there does need to be more attention brought to minionmancy, but I don't really have a resource I'd trust. If anyone is willing to offer suggestions, I'd be willing to add them.

[Zaq]

Point of order about Dread Witch: While it's an excellent class for what it does, be aware that Greater Master of Terror (the class feature that lets you ignore fear immunity, of course) only applies to fear spells, so your Fear Aura has no ability to bypass immunity. You'll have fear spells if you want 'em, of course, but it's really easy to forget that Dread Witch is not a free ticket to ignore all fear immunity forever.

[BillyBobJoe]

Fear Aura is a spell that modifies your fear aura, so would that make the entire thing count as spell in this case? It wouldn't work on the basic fear aura, though.

On an unrelated note, when are you going to do the 20th level advanced learning?

[JaronK]

I notice a lack of Black Sand on the suggested spells list. That spell is AMAZING, especially since if you kill someone with it they turn into the stuff permanently. Now put that result in the boots of your undead... they now get fast healing 1d6 forever.

JaronK

[Coidzor]

^: To be fair, it's probably better as a scroll than as a spell known, since once you have some, you can always use it to make more black sand by torturing your dying enemies whose bodies you don't have a use for to death with it.

I think it's a 1d4 though.
Animate Dread Warrior was covered, and is an exellent method of obtaining superior pets which beat out the party tank in terms of ability and stats, since it's pretty much a tank done properly, with bonuses right where you want them, and a whole host of immunities built in.

You are right, there does need to be more attention brought to minionmancy, but I don't really have a resource I'd trust. If anyone is willing to offer suggestions, I'd be willing to add them.

Hmm... Probably best to do it by level ranges for the sections, maybe in groups of 3-4 levels or so. And then from there organized by the sorts of CR the living creatures that one would expect to encounter (What is it, typically APL-3 or so as the bottom end and APL+3 or 4 for big bosses?) and harvest the raw material to make minions out of and then the kind of role that the creature would have in the dread necromancer's arsenal.

Since there are some things which have "Vehicle" or some other utility use written all over them, after all.

Something like categories such as "Lots of attacks," "Meat/bone walls," "Single big hits," "Lockdown," "Utility/Miscellaneous," and "Hydras."

I've been thinking about a sort of skeleton that such an idea could build upon, though I would have a lot more work to do in order to get anything usable out myself, something that'd look a bit like this.

Before you can animate - Remember those guys you killed? Turns out they were loot.
Starting off: So, those corpses you've been collecting for the past 8 levels, here's what we can do with them.highlights of creatures that are good from CR <1 to CR 8 or so. Especially ones that give the most bang for their HD buck.

Probably less organized by CR here, since this would be more going by the DMG suggested encounter guidelines of what would/could have been fought by that point and would be the ideal options.

Level 8-12 - So you wanna be a minionmancer?: Avoiding melee obsolescence
Chargers: Things with pounce, such as fleshrakers, tigers, and dire tigers

Grapplers: large size is going to be the most important thing, likely to be zombies due to the bonus to strength they get from the template and not really caring about only having one attack per round if they're being used to take enemies out of the fight on a one-on-one basis. Probably would need to do a comparison against the average/mode grapple modifier of monsters so that the undead chosen have higher than average grapple modifiers to be competitive with what would be faced of CR 8-11.

Trippers: Similar to grapplers, though reach is going to be more important, and probably going to be skeletons for the dex and AoO component.

Blockers/Meatwalls: Things with good size and AC for their HD and any further abilities to deny enemies squares or efficacy to their attacks. Since only a few undead will have their HP vary by anything other than their number of HD unless rolling for the buggers individually is allowed.

Hydras: You have up to 9-headed hydras that you could've potentially killed dead prior to this point. Great as either zombies or skeletons due to the way their attacks work. Even better if you're able to incapacitate them prior to kiling them, so that you can increase the number of heads up to double the number of heads the hydra originally had before killing and animating it. They eat up a good bit of HD, especially as zombies, but they have a 1 attack for 1 HD rate in their base form, which can be doubled to 2 attacks per HD for skeletons and 1 attack per HD for zombies if a little more care is taken with them before they're added to the horde. Also, great candidates for awaken undead as the zombie versions regain fast healing, which stacks with filling their bellies with black sand/giving them booties.

Better off grabbing them at odd number of base heads though, as that's how their strength increments, so you get the best value of attack for the HD you invest in keeping them.

Non-standard options: Bloodhulks and Necrosis Carnexes, mainly, and how and when to spend HD in this manner.

Eyes on the prize: Best minions you can get for each role based upon the expected use of the CR system and your class's abilities to summon them

Planar Binding and You: Outsiders and Elementals of note from 1-12 HD

Level 12-16 - Staring down Gods and stealing from devils
Similar CR-breakdown of creatures that become going concerns for stabbing in the face until they become minions.

Lockdown's grapplers and trippers

Melee Brute's chargers and face-eaters

Hydras: Of note is that with pyrohydras a going concern, you can make skeletal hydras that are immune to both energy types simply enough or have zombie cryohydras that are immune to cold and can be used in applications previously restricted to skeletons for this reason.

Utility: So, you want a submarine and an airship, eh?

Enemy NPCs to Dread Warrior and Enemy NPCs to Skeletonize: Who is good to dread warrior? Lieutenants? BBEGs? Are wis-based casters worth the hassle?

Planar Binding 2: Outsiders with 18 or less HD are your oyster.

Level 16-20 - I say, is that entire building made out of zombies?
Things that you'd like to throw at the Tarrasque to watch the carnage: Battletitans

Further appropriate thoughts on previously covered topics.

From here on out, it's all Dragonhill: Coping with being unable to use most enemies as future minions except for dragons. Varieties of dragon that are preferable as skeletons or as zombies.

There's also some kind of collection of necromantic oddities (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=181.0) that might be of interest as well, if it hasn't already been brought up.

[T.G. Oskar]

Shneekey, any reason why Corpsecrafter and Undead Mastery don't stack at all? Note that I said "at all", not merely "doesn't stack", since from what I can see you can stretch a stack-up.

From what I see, there's at least one thing from Corpsecrafter that might stack with Undead Mastery (the HP per HD thing), since they come from different sources (one from a feat, the other from a class ability), or else Corpsecrafter/Undead Mastery HP per HD wouldn't stack with Desecrate either.

So it seems that it's a half-stacking concept, and since you still need Corpsecrafter for the other feats, it's not really a terrible choice. Unless, of course, there's an odd ruling that doesn't let the two stack (though, as it works, the "HP per HD" thing is not even a bonus, so it should be counted separately).

[JaronK]

Indeed, the hit points part does stack, and can be worthwhile (Undead Mastery + Corpse Crafter + Desecrated Altar = double hps for all undead you make).

JaronK

[Talya]

If you go after high quality minions, you can go through your allotted HD totals rather quickly. Nothing like a Great Wyrm Zombie Red Dragon (Dragon Zombie template is not HD limited like others), and an army of zombie hydras to go with them...The DN certainly can use the bonus hit dice from Undead mastery all the way up to 20.

Why have a couple hundred standard and easily killed skeletons and zombies when you can have 20-30 epic-HD level monstrosities at your disposal?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Why have a couple hundred standard and easily killed skeletons and zombies when you can have 20-30 epic-HD level monstrosities at your disposal?

If there's a Bard involved (like Undead Leadership or Pale Master 9 ability), then you now have a couple hundred standard and easily killed (but easily replaceable) skeletons who have a BAB = your HD, have +8 to attack and damage, +8d6 Sonic damage per shot, Pounce + 5 attacks (if you pick up Leopard skeletons at 3hd each), for a damage output of ZOMGWTFBBQ!!!111ONE!

It will lag your game to a crawl if you actually try to go through with making some several thousand attacks per round, and not suggested for real play, but as a theoretical exercise, it beats out most Ubercharge builds that don't come with Cancer Mage recursive strength boosting to NI.

[Coidzor]

Well, I think if you go with Hydras you're going to be getting about the same thing as pounce and with more attacks per HD if you use the hydra torture technique before you kill and animate it.

A 5 headed hydra skeleton can get you 10 attacks if you specially decapitate it to double its heads before killing it and turning it into an undead. So skeletons get 2xHD in natural weapons and zombies are at 1 attack per HD with this technique.

So 2 5-headed hydras are more individually durable and have one more attack than 3 leopards as skeletons at the cost of one extra HD controlled. Then if you double their heads before skeletonizing them, you've got 20 attacks on 2 5-HD creatures vs 9 attacks on 3 3-HD creatures.

If you're able to start a breeding program (since handle animal and wild empathy both work on hydras...), you might even be able to make the hydras dungeonbred so they fit in more convenient locations as large creatures, and maybe find a template to give them claws, like draconic, in order to up their attacks per HD.

[Sception]

Go go theme appropriate thread necromancy....

Large scale unintelligent undead should be placed under Command Undead (the 2nd level spell), rather then take up space in your Animate Dead or rebuking pools. Command Undead grants complete, no-save control of mindless undead regardless of hit dice and lasts for days. So that 30 HD gold dragon zombie? One spell, cast every (caster level) days. A 13th level dread necromancer / 2nd level Pale Master (not an ideal choice, but if you're trying to animate a lot of bones, the spell like animate dead can be worth the lost caster level), who dedicates two second level Command Undead spells per day can comfortably control 28 such dragons without touching his rebuking pool (which should be reserved for spawning undead or other exotic creatures with unique gimmicks) or his Animate Dead pool (which should be reserved for HD-efficient utility creatures that have been Awakened, since awakening stops Command Undead from working reliably).

Notably, if your DM allows the Leadership feat, any third level or higher arcane caster followers can control their own pool of 30 hit dice dragons.

You don't have to choose between having a lot of undead and having big undead. You can have have your cake and eat it too.

Of course, all comments about the impracticality of large numbers of minions within the confines of the typical adventuring environments still apply, and more so. It's a gimmick for mass combat games, not regular dungeon delving.

[agahii]

My HoH states the following.

"In addition, when a dread necromancer uses the animate
dead spell to create undead, she can control 4 + her Charisma
bonus HD worth of undead creatures per class level (rather
than the 4 HD per level normally granted by the spell)."

Emphasis mine.

It doesn't say class level OF DREAD NECROMANCER. By my reading, it would be any class level gained after and including level 8. What is you reasoning behing it only being DN levels?

[Shades of Gray]

Because any time a class mentions "per class level" they mean "levels in this class." If they want something based on levels in any class, they use HD instead of class level.

[agahii]

I thought the HD thing was the big argument against why the feral template does not give any of the higher HD bonuses for class levels.

Also do you have a reference for your interpretation of "per class level" for me so I can verify?

In the srd Arch mage (first I checked, so likely many other classes) says this "that deals 1d6 points of damage per class level of the archmage". Does this mean, by your interpretation, this ability will only ever do 14d6(5 for arch mage levels, 9 for spell slot) damage which you traded a 9th level slot for?

[JaronK]

That's correct. "Class levels" always refers to the number of levels of the class you're in. And yes, that Archmage ability is pretty weak.

JaronK

[agahii]

What about magic items that have the same wording?

Also Im not being argumentative here, I would like to see this interpretation of the rule referenced somewhere so I can change my games to the correct RAW. To me it seems counter intuitive.

[agahii]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm

Here it is.

Still though, I think this is an oversight by the writers in many cases(confusing class level and character level). I will just houserule it and encourage other DMs to do the same, as many abilities are just terrible because of the wording.

[Sception]

Perfectly reasonable house rules aside, the 8th level dread necromancer ability replaces the entire normal animate dead pool with the new limit. Ie, if you gain additional spellcaster levels outside of Dread necromancer, they won't give any additional control limit, although they'll still let you animate more HD in a single casting, allowing larger minions. In addition, other sources of increased caster level even for a character with only dread necromancer levels will not increase their maximum animate dead control pool, because, again, the 8th level ability does not add to the normal caster-level based limit, it replaces it entirely with a new class-level (which, yes, means levels in that class) based limit. An 8th level dread necromancer doesn't look at caster level at all when figuring maximum pool size for Animate Dead.

It's annoying, but if you max out cha you can kind of ignore it. An 8th level dread necro with maxed out cha has about the same animate dead limit as a 20th level regular caster, barring caster level bonuses, so its not costing you anything if you do only take 8 levels, and that 8th level is still worthwhile for the advanced learning. And the extra HP for your creations isn't bad. And Dread Necro builds can be feat starved to the point of skipping the Corpse Crafter chain entirely, at which point it's a much more meaningful ability. But it's not the magic dump point that K described it as. Ideal dump point actually seems to be 1st (for limitless out of combat healing), 5th (for fear aura), or maybe 7th (for the fancy familiar).

[Sception]

Some issues with the Enervationist build: first, Arcane Thesis requires the spell be one you can cast before you take it - no biggie, just switch its spot with fell drain.

More significant: iirc, black lore of moil requires Spell Focus: Necromancy as a pre-req, which is going to require dumping a feat. Fortunately, Practical Metamagic is there to be dumped, since it has a pre-req of the dragonblooded subtype, which as far as I can tell you lack as a human in that build.

Quicken ends up costing you a spell level increase after all, but then again Enervation's the build's primary offensive tool, so you're probably going to be casting more of it then you'll have unused 4th level slots in a given day, anyway, so having to cast your quickened enervations with 5th or 6th level slots shouldn't be a big deal. You're probably using some of those slots on more enervation regardless.

Of course, dropping the last feat to add a new prereq pushes everything back three levels.... Ergh.


Oh, and a note on finding a Slaymate to play with: there's really no given means of creating one, so you're generally stuck begging the DM for one. But there is an end run around that - Polymorph Any Object, the same trick used to generate rare corpses for animation, can turn a small zombie into a slaymate. This should be a permanent change, but even with an unfavorable DM (who isn't so unfavorable as to ban slaymates outright), it should last at least a week. Of course, access to PAO can be an issue - it's available by arcane disciple (trickery), by UMDing scrolls or staves, by begging uses from a wizardly fellow party member, or, potentially, by paying a 15th level npc wizard to cast it for you - provided you can find one willing to do so - at a cost of 1,200 gold.

The resulting slaymate would be vulnerable to both turning and dispelling, but it is about the only reliable in-game way I can think of to get one.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Some issues with the Enervationist build: first, Arcane Thesis requires the spell be one you can cast before you take it - no biggie, just switch its spot with fell drain.

More significant: iirc, black lore of moil requires Spell Focus: Necromancy as a pre-req, which is going to require dumping a feat. Fortunately, Practical Metamagic is there to be dumped, since it has a pre-req of the dragonblooded subtype, which as far as I can tell you lack as a human in that build.

Quicken ends up costing you a spell level increase after all, but then again Enervation's the build's primary offensive tool, so you're probably going to be casting more of it then you'll have unused 4th level slots in a given day, anyway, so having to cast your quickened enervations with 5th or 6th level slots shouldn't be a big deal. You're probably using some of those slots on more enervation regardless.

Of course, dropping the last feat to add a new prereq pushes everything back three levels.... Ergh.


Oh, and a note on finding a Slaymate to play with: there's really no given means of creating one, so you're generally stuck begging the DM for one. But there is an end run around that - Polymorph Any Object, the same trick used to generate rare corpses for animation, can turn a small zombie into a slaymate. This should be a permanent change, but even with an unfavorable DM (who isn't so unfavorable as to ban slaymates outright), it should last at least a week. Of course, access to PAO can be an issue - it's available by arcane disciple (trickery), by UMDing scrolls or staves, by begging uses from a wizardly fellow party member, or, potentially, by paying a 15th level npc wizard to cast it for you - provided you can find one willing to do so - at a cost of 1,200 gold.

The resulting slaymate would be vulnerable to both turning and dispelling, but it is about the only reliable in-game way I can think of to get one.

Since the Slaymate provides an untyped bonus, it stacks with itself, and thus using the PAO trick, you can get unlimited slaymates and never have to worry about metamagic modifiers ever again. If you're particularly paranoid, there's ways to protect them. Shrink them and put them in your Haversack, for example.

[JaronK]

Wouldn't that be an untyped bonus from the same source, and thus not stack?

JaronK

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wouldn't that be an untyped bonus from the same source, and thus not stack?

JaronK

It's coming from two different Slaymates...

If multiple Nightsticks is valid, so is multiple Slaymates.

[Sception]

Of course, typically speaking multiple nightsticks isn't valid (talking actual gameplay, not RAW here). It's worth tacking on a 'watch out for flying DMGs' note, anyway, as something likely to get barred in actual play.

A Slaymate in a haversack - wouldn't you still have to pull it out to use it, since while in the sack it would in an extra dimensional space, and thus not w/in 5' of any space in the material plane? Not a problem with the plan, just something to note.

Shrinking them I'd heavily endorse, along with any other persistent or long duration effects of lower level then Polymorph Any Object you can put on them, just to soak up a dispel effect before losing the polymorph. Same theory as rolling with a number of tiny or smaller zombies (or even filling small crates with them and lashing the crates to the insides of your bigger skeletons' rib cages), just to soak a turning check or two.

[Amphetryon]

It's coming from two different Slaymates...

If multiple Nightsticks is valid, so is multiple Slaymates.
So, multiple Clerics casting Bless also stacks? Woohoo!

[Sception]

Bless is a morale bonus, not untyped. Most DMs are going to rule the same aura from multiple creatures as the same source, though.

[SirFredgar]

Before this hits the 6 week mark, I wanted to thank you Shneekey for the awesome handbook. It's helped my DN out immensely.

One thing I did want to point out is the Scarecrow build that incorporates Snowcasting. That feat has a CON 13 requirement, so any build that goes DN 20, or Necropolitian wouldn't be able to make use of it, or the line of tricks it produces.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Before this hits the 6 week mark, I wanted to thank you Shneekey for the awesome handbook. It's helped my DN out immensely.

One thing I did want to point out is the Scarecrow build that incorporates Snowcasting. That feat has a CON 13 requirement, so any build that goes DN 20, or Necropolitian wouldn't be able to make use of it, or the line of tricks it produces.

Even without Snowcasting, it still produces an aura that Frightens, rather than Panics, opponents. Snowcasting is just there so Aura of Terror deals damage and thus is able to have Fell Frighten applied to it.

[SirFredgar]

Even without Snowcasting, it still produces an aura that Frightens, rather than Panics, opponents. Snowcasting is just there so Aura of Terror deals damage and thus is able to have Fell Frighten applied to it.

Yes, but then it becomes a single advanced learning selection than a feat chain to make it beastly. I was very interested in the Normal-to-panic ability that build generated, and was wondering if you knew of any other way to get similiar effects from a more undead friendly feat chain. The lock down your build manages is amazing, and I'd hate to loose it for a handfull of immunities.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, but then it becomes a single advanced learning selection than a feat chain to make it beastly. I was very interested in the Normal-to-panic ability that build generated, and was wondering if you knew of any other way to get similiar effects from a more undead friendly feat chain. The lock down your build manages is amazing, and I'd hate to loose it for a handfull of immunities.

To be honest? Anything that increases Fear by a step will do the job. I simply went a more convoluted route because it's entirely passive, but you could just as easily be casting Fell Frighten Kelgore's Grave Mist to soften up targets (making them Shaken), then watch as they hit Panicked when they reach your Aura.

Heck, just use Fearful Empowerment, since you already have Dread Witch. There's your fear boost right there.

[NEXxREX]

{{scrubbed}}

[SirFredgar]

{{scrubbed}}
First of all: Undead Mastery at 8 is AMAZING.... only if you continue in Dread Necromancer as he suggested. Because those bonus HD undead mastery gives you only apply to your Dread Necro class levels.... not caster levels.

Mathmatically Speaking, at level 8 Dread necromancer grants you 128 HD to play with (assuming a +12 charisma Modifier, which isn't likely at 8). At level twelve you get 192, a difference of 64HD of undead you are missing out on. Every level after 8th you do not take in Dread Necromancer is 16 hd of minions you've lost. Seems pretty significant for a minionmancy build, does it not?

Also, for a dread necromancer with a fixed spell list, being able to add a spell at 12, custom tailored to your build, is nothing to sneeze at. Most of the time these PrCs you mentioned (which ones?) continue your fixed spell list... so this addition is useful throughout.

So, yeah... dread necro 8 is a trap. Read first, then post, plz.

EDIT: My initial math was way off, not sure why.

[Heatwizard]

{{scrubbed}}
Eighth level as a drop point is a trap. He's saying if you go to Dread Necro 8, you gain so much by sticking around (and you waste it so thoroughly if you take off) that to drop it then is foolish.

Also:
{{scrubbed}}
Per CLASS level, not caster level. Levels in the class called Dread Necromancer. Your caster level doesn't have anything to do with it. The only prestige class that progresses your cap after Dread Necro 8 is Uncanny Trickster.

Also, you want him to be objective(that's the one without biases) and not subjective(the one with).

[danzibr]

Thanks for the guide Shneekey! I love DN's even though I've never played one. We stick with good groups... someday though.

Also sorry for the hate you're getting. I think it's a good guide.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

stuff

You know... I was going to type out a long and reasoned response to this...

Then I realized someone probably just made the account for the expressed purpose of trolling this thread. Check out the created date and the profile... one post made by user... wow, if that isn't obvious, I don't know what is.

What I found particularly amusing was that his suggestion that Aura of Terror or Animate Dread Warrior was not worth a four level investment, when the former gives you no-action Frightened aura and the later gives you minions with class levels...

[Benly]

I'm going to have to hop on the "Pale Master is not actually that bad" bandwagon here. It's not one of the All-Time Greatest PrCs, of course - it's no incantatrix, it's no ScM, whatever. I know that's not actually your problem with it.

Your problem is that first level, and that first level is ugly. Now look at the class and imagine some of the abilities were shuffled around a bit - no new abilities, but just imagine for a moment that, say, undead graft at level 5 and deathless vigor at level 4 were shifted down to that first level to offset the lack of spellcasting.

Suddenly it's a 9/10 casting class with no dead levels, some extremely good abilities (free cohort, armor without ASF, useful spell with a material component turned into a no-components SLA, breaking the control limit.) That version of the Pale Master is about as good as a 9/10 casting class gets for a necromancer, and the important thing is that it's the same Pale Master. The only difference between that solid 9/10 class with no dead levels and the much-maligned Pale Master is that, for no reason obvious to me, the designers decided not to put any of its abilities at first level. After a few levels in the class, there's absolutely no difference between these two versions.

So, yes, that first level is ugly, and it's a huge psychological barrier to entering the class - but the class as a whole is perfectly fine, and after a few levels you won't feel the sting. You'll be too busy laughing maniacally as your endless horde of 100% free, 100% disposable minions chews off your enemies' faces.


Edit: I guess I'm preaching to the choir, since I see your minion-master build is DN10/PM10. Which does raise the question of why you call the PrC "generally subpar".

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm going to have to hop on the "Pale Master is not actually that bad" bandwagon here. It's not one of the All-Time Greatest PrCs, of course - it's no incantatrix, it's no ScM, whatever. I know that's not actually your problem with it.

Your problem is that first level, and that first level is ugly. Now look at the class and imagine some of the abilities were shuffled around a bit - no new abilities, but just imagine for a moment that, say, undead graft at level 5 and deathless vigor at level 4 were shifted down to that first level to offset the lack of spellcasting.

Suddenly it's a 9/10 casting class with no dead levels, some extremely good abilities (free cohort, armor without ASF, useful spell with a material component turned into a no-components SLA, breaking the control limit.) That version of the Pale Master is about as good as a 9/10 casting class gets for a necromancer, and the important thing is that it's the same Pale Master. The only difference between that solid 9/10 class with no dead levels and the much-maligned Pale Master is that, for no reason obvious to me, the designers decided not to put any of its abilities at first level. After a few levels in the class, there's absolutely no difference between these two versions.

So, yes, that first level is ugly, and it's a huge psychological barrier to entering the class - but the class as a whole is perfectly fine, and after a few levels you won't feel the sting. You'll be too busy laughing maniacally as your endless horde of 100% free, 100% disposable minions chews off your enemies' faces.


Edit: I guess I'm preaching to the choir, since I see your minion-master build is DN10/PM10. Which does raise the question of why you call the PrC "generally subpar".

Well, you see, this word 'generally' means 'usually, but not always'. There are uses for the class, and I did point out the same things you did... good for a minion and infinite disposable minions... but generally... it's not really all that powerful.

Usually, you either don't care about using a bardic cohort to boost your minions, or are taking Animate Dread Warrior to make your own, so the cohort is mostly icing on the cake, and you have to jump through significant hoops to net unlimited zombies.

From time to time, however, it does have its uses and can be useful.

[Benly]

Usually, you either don't care about using a bardic cohort to boost your minions, or are taking Animate Dread Warrior to make your own, so the cohort is mostly icing on the cake, and you have to jump through significant hoops to net unlimited zombies.

From time to time, however, it does have its uses and can be useful.

The only "significant hoop" you have to jump through for rendering your minions endlessly disposable is taking two levels of the class. The hoop-jumping only comes if you want to break the fundamental rules of how Animate Dead and its minion allowance work

My feeling is that a prestige class isn't supposed to be "better than the base in every regard", and that the ones that are tend to be outliers like the aforementioned incantatrix and shadowcraft mage. Pale Master is more like Malconvoker: if you want to be good at the theme of the PrC (undead minions or summoning respectively), the PrC will make you much better at it with very little overall tradeoff. If you're not interested in what the PrC is about, you don't take it, but that's true of any PrC. What makes a PrC subpar is if it's not all that great at what it's supposed to be about, which is not the case with Pale Master.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The only "significant hoop" you have to jump through for rendering your minions endlessly disposable is taking two levels of the class. The hoop-jumping only comes if you want to break the fundamental rules of how Animate Dead and its minion allowance work

My feeling is that a prestige class isn't supposed to be "better than the base in every regard", and that the ones that are tend to be outliers like the aforementioned incantatrix and shadowcraft mage. Pale Master is more like Malconvoker: if you want to be good at the theme of the PrC (undead minions or summoning respectively), the PrC will make you much better at it with very little overall tradeoff. If you're not interested in what the PrC is about, you don't take it, but that's true of any PrC. What makes a PrC subpar is if it's not all that great at what it's supposed to be about, which is not the case with Pale Master.

/sigh


Starting at 2nd level, a pale master begins
to exercise control over the undead. Once per day, he can use
animate dead, as the spell, without need of a material component.


Bolded for emphasis. once per day is not endless by any means.

The ability I refer to is actually the capstone, the zombies created therein bypass the normal HD cap for theoretically infinite undead. However, that ability was severely nerfed by the times per day that occurred when it was updated to 3.5 in LM.

If you want unlimited undead creation without onyx, there's far better ways to do it than taking this PrC. The only significant redeeming features of this class are a) bypassing HD cap of undead under your control, and b) Cohort. Nothing else is worth bothering with. Ever. Your base class abilities from Dread Necromancer are far more powerful than anything else this class has to offer.

[Benly]

I've read the class quite well, but thanks for the sarcastic sigh!

I tend to forget that other people don't have my personal bias against spellstitching (its pricing structure is nearly inverted from any other crafting in the game, there's a tendency to assume that temporary Wisdom bonuses are resolved entirely in the player's favor, and it costs an amount of XP that is not going to be chump change if you want it at any reasonable level, especially after you've already spent a full level's worth of XP to become necropolitan.) Other than spellstitching (and Dweomerkeeper if you manage to get away with that one, I suppose), there aren't really methods for free undead that are superior to Pale Master 2. Fell Animate only gets you zombies (generally inferior to skeletons) and won't work on anything that dies before you get to it, Necrocarnum Circlet gets you exactly one at a time, and so on.

Again, I'm not saying "you should always take Pale Master, all the time", but in terms of a build that focuses on undead minions it is a solid enough class that I don't consider it subpar.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I've read the class quite well, but thanks for the sarcastic sigh!

I tend to forget that other people don't have my personal bias against spellstitching (its pricing structure is nearly inverted from any other crafting in the game, there's a tendency to assume that temporary Wisdom bonuses are resolved entirely in the player's favor, and it costs an amount of XP that is not going to be chump change if you want it at any reasonable level, especially after you've already spent a full level's worth of XP to become necropolitan.) Other than spellstitching (and Dweomerkeeper if you manage to get away with that one, I suppose), there aren't really methods for free undead that are superior to Pale Master 2. Fell Animate only gets you zombies (generally inferior to skeletons) and won't work on anything that dies before you get to it, Necrocarnum Circlet gets you exactly one at a time, and so on.

Again, I'm not saying "you should always take Pale Master, all the time", but in terms of a build that focuses on undead minions it is a solid enough class that I don't consider it subpar.

And again... it's only once per day. I prefer to be able to do my primary shtick more than once a day, thanks.

Fell Animate is, at best, a band-aid, yes. However, when combined with Fell Drain and Kelgore's Grave Mist, it works out fairly well to create large swarms of low-end disposable explosive minions.

As far as getting it as a spell-like ability, there's plenty of ways. Heck, Archmage pulls it off handily, although qualifying might be a bit tricky. But Spellstitched is generally the easiest way to go, since you're only duplicating a 3rd level spell, you only need a Wis of 13, which means an xp cost of 6.5k, and can use it more often, without screwing over... well... pretty much everything about your character with a completely dead level.

No temporary wisdom bonuses necessary, and not an exorbitant xp cost by any means.

Now, if you were wanting to get, for example, Animate Dread Warrior and get things like Uberchargers as pets, now THAT would require a Wis score of 19+, which would require such hoops as you required. However, it would be 1/day 'I now have a better pet than the party beatstick', not 1/day 'I have another skeleton which will probably die in the next encounter'.

Pale Master does have uses. The animate dead SLA, however, is merely the icing on the cake. It's the Cohort that is worth the price of admission.

[Madara]

I did a fair amount of work on the Minions, you've seen it before, but I'll link it. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223916)

I got a little trigger-happy with the colors.


Also, I still believe that Pounce isn't kept by skeletons. It's a special attack, not quality. :smallsigh: But keep it your way if you want.

[Benly]

As far as getting it as a spell-like ability, there's plenty of ways. Heck, Archmage pulls it off handily, although qualifying might be a bit tricky. But Spellstitched is generally the easiest way to go, since you're only duplicating a 3rd level spell, you only need a Wis of 13, which means an xp cost of 6.5k, and can use it more often, without screwing over... well... pretty much everything about your character with a completely dead level.

Archmage just shifts it from a material cost to an XP cost - acceptable if you're into "XP is a river", but not really nullifying. Still, I grant that it's probably less of a hit than a caster level loss would be particularly if your GM goes with XP as a river, and I'd pretty much forgotten about it. (Rather, I'd forgotten that Archmage did that weird halfway-ignoring-components thing rather than simply retaining components - I remembered that it kept XP components and forgot that it converted material components.)

Spellstitching can only be done by a wizard or sorcerer, which means a fourth-level spell, which means 7500 XP, which is a fair slab - if Spellstitching followed conventional pricing schemes rather than its own wacky unique pricing scheme, it would be pushing the borderline of epic-level items. This ties into my other problems with spellstitching, which are more GM-side, and honestly if spellstitching is going to be the focus of conversation I should probably bow out - its pricing scheme is spectacularly broken in a fairly obvious way, but it is officially published material, so while my personal feeling is that it belongs in the same bin as the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, that's just a personal feeling and a player at a table where it's allowed should presumably take advantage of it.

I still feel that Pale Master is, on the whole, above average as PrCs go, but falls prey to the "one lost caster level = might as well commit suicide" mentality compounded by the starkly odd design of pushing all its features away from the first level. Personally I find one lost caster level tolerable, but if you don't, it's going to be ignored like any other 9/10 PrC will be.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Spellstitching can only be done by a wizard or sorcerer, which means a fourth-level spell, which means 7500 XP, which is a fair slab - if Spellstitching followed conventional pricing schemes rather than its own wacky unique pricing scheme, it would be pushing the borderline of epic-level items. This ties into my other problems with spellstitching, which are more GM-side, and honestly if spellstitching is going to be the focus of conversation I should probably bow out - its pricing scheme is spectacularly broken in a fairly obvious way, but it is officially published material, so while my personal feeling is that it belongs in the same bin as the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, that's just a personal feeling and a player at a table where it's allowed should presumably take advantage of it. Sanctum Spell. It's back to a 3rd level spell. Slaymate. Now it's a 2nd. Shall I go on? These also work in combination with metamagic-reducing abilities to make you able to pull things off like Split Ray Twin Spell Empowered Enervation out of a 4th level spell slot.


I still feel that Pale Master is, on the whole, above average as PrCs go, but falls prey to the "one lost caster level = might as well commit suicide" mentality compounded by the starkly odd design of pushing all its features away from the first level. Personally I find one lost caster level tolerable, but if you don't, it's going to be ignored like any other 9/10 PrC will be.I think you are missing the point. There are several 9/10 classes which are worth going into. The point is that a 1/day Animate Dead SLA is not worth the lost level. If you're only going in for the two-level dip, then it's effectively 1/2 CL... which is a big no-no.

If you go into Pale Master, it's for the Cohort. Which is worth the class, don't get me wrong, but don't confuse Animate Dead 1/day as being worth the price of admission.

[The Underlord]

Sanctum Spell. It's back to a 3rd level spell. Slaymate. Now it's a 2nd. Shall I go on? These also work in combination with metamagic-reducing abilities to make you able to pull things off like Split Ray Twin Spell Empowered Enervation out of a 4th level spell slot.

Wrong. While it reduces effective spell level, it does not reduce slot

A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.
lol fail, forgot about metamagic reducers

[ShneekeyTheLost]

lol fail, forgot about metamagic reducers

Yea, basically using some of Mailman's more easily reachable techniques, although most metamagic reducers won't work here, simply because they tend to not allow it to go below the original spell level. Slaymates are a notable exception, as are things like Arcane Thesis, which can combo quite nicely with Sanctum Spell.

[Madara]

I was searching my books, and came across the Runesmith.

Interestingly enough, it would make a great PrC for the DN

Share Runes has a secondary ability; Because the spell is treated as two levels higher, its a +2 DC bonus! Also, it has the normal spell sharing.

Permanent Rune with give you your Spell-Like ability. It is a 5lv full arcane casting PrC.

Downside: Must be a dwarf, need Heavy Armor Proficiency(Which seems silly, since heavy armor has Arcane Failure chance...wait nevermind it solves that problem.)

[Cieyrin]

Must be a dwarf, need Heavy Armor Proficiency(Which seems silly, since heavy armor has Arcane Failure chance...wait nevermind it solves that problem.)

Well, there's Stoneblessed but I don't think anyone would spring for a 5/8 casting class, do you?

As for Heavy Armor Proficiency, that can be a pain to gain, though the best is probably dipping Dragonslayer for it, which doesn't lose you a CL.

[Madara]

What book is dragonslayer in? I'm starting to work on a DN/Runesmith build.
Also, I forgot to mention it still needs Scribe Scroll.

You could dip cleric to get the Heavy Armor Prof and Rune domain for Scribe Scroll, giving you entry at level 4, as long as you meet skill reqs. But I don't think 4th level is the best option, you could always delay the last level until you have better spells.

[Benly]

Sanctum Spell. It's back to a 3rd level spell. Slaymate. Now it's a 2nd. Shall I go on? These also work in combination with metamagic-reducing abilities to make you able to pull things off like Split Ray Twin Spell Empowered Enervation out of a 4th level spell slot.

Yeah, we're well into the realm of what I would not try to get past most DMs. If your experience is different, more power to you, but if you consider this a viable option I'm not sure there's much of a conversation to be had between us on that front.


I think you are missing the point. There are several 9/10 classes which are worth going into. The point is that a 1/day Animate Dead SLA is not worth the lost level. If you're only going in for the two-level dip, then it's effectively 1/2 CL... which is a big no-no.

If you go into Pale Master, it's for the Cohort. Which is worth the class, don't get me wrong, but don't confuse Animate Dead 1/day as being worth the price of admission.

..yeah, I think I figured out a reason we're arguing so much (at least one.) :smallredface: I didn't mean to imply "ANIMATE DEAD IS WHAT MAKES THE 9/10 WORTH IT", and I'm not sure what I said that implied that. What I've been saying is that the class as a whole is a pretty good one, and that Animate Dead is one of the good things it offers, including the cohort and the limit-breaking zombification punch. (Personally, I see the last as the Big One, but it's a capstone and I tend to like hordes more than cohorts on a play style level.) If it was a 9/10 class where 1/day Animate Dead was the only thing on tap, I'd be considerably more hesitant, but it's not: as I said, it's a 9/10 class with a large menu of abilities including several that are quite good and a couple that are very good.

edit: Actually, I'm pretty sure it's because my initial post was talking about the expendable minions and I made clear that I meant the Animate Dead. The reason there is that I was talking about how it's pretty good even a few levels into the class - at the time when you first get the Animate Dead ability and for a fair bit thereafter, you're unlikely to be able to swing all the shenanigans you're offering for spellstitching and your wealth is relatively low, so you'd have to be careful with your undead. At level 8 being able to throw all the corpses you find in a bag, dump them out at the end of the day and stand them up without having any regard for cost is intensely liberating, and if you've had to play budget-conscious as a low-level necromancer before it takes a lot of the sting out of the casting level you just lost. And, of course, with that dead level behind you things are getting better from there. So, yeah, at the level when you get it the free Animate Dead is pretty good, but it's not the Best Thing About The Class.

[Cieyrin]

What book is dragonslayer in? I'm starting to work on a DN/Runesmith build.
Also, I forgot to mention it still needs Scribe Scroll.

You could dip cleric to get the Heavy Armor Prof and Rune domain for Scribe Scroll, giving you entry at level 4, as long as you meet skill reqs. But I don't think 4th level is the best option, you could always delay the last level until you have better spells.

Dragonslayer is, fittingly, from the Draconomicon.

The reason I recommend Dragonslayer over Cleric or other stuff is then you aren't lagging a CL. You can't get in as a Dread Necro till 10th, due to the BAB +5, but if you're building that high, anyways, it shouldn't matter. Though, on the other hand, free domain stuff is still free domain stuff and there seems to be lots of support for dipping cleric regardless across the boards, so take it as you will.

[Madara]

I looked it over, DN is too feat starved to pull it off well. It was a nice suggestion. Thank you :smallsmile:

Now I know what PrC to get proficiencies from.

[123456789blaaa]

(I'm under the impression that handbook are generally exempt from the thread necromancy rules. Sorry if I'm wrong :smallfrown:)

Some thoughts/suggestions:


I'm not sure why you have that whole "DN's are hardcore evil" speech at the beginning of the handbook. DN doesn't even require you to be evil and furthermore Heroes of Horror, in the introduction to Chapter 4- and in the description of the Dread Necromancer class later in the chapter, suggests that characters who, while committing evil deeds, do them toward good ends, and have good intentions, may possibly be able to maintain a Neutral alignment, describing them as "a flexible Neutral" or "can remain solidly neutral". So you can animate all the undead you want and still remain non-evil as long as you do good stuff.



Thanks to someone I can't remember on these forums I recently found an awesome, awesome item for necromancers.

In the online article Dead Life (
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) on the wizards website there is an item called the Shrouds of the Unholy. Here is it's description:


Shrouds of the Unholy: These shrouds, like shrouds of the holy, look like ordinary funerary wrappings for dead bodies and are often decorated with symbols and icons representing the dead rising. If a dead body is wrapped in the shroud, and the command word spoken, the body will return as undead. The type of undead it returns as is determined by the speaker of the command word. The undead creature is not under anyone's control when it rises. Wrapping a body takes 10 minutes. The magic of the shrouds is useable only once, after which the wrapping becomes ordinary, fine cloth.

Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, animate dead, create undead, or create greater undead as appropriate; Market Price: 1,550 gp (animate dead), 12,250 gp (create undead), or 16,000 (create greater undead); Weight: 10 lbs.

This is a must-have item for any necromancer. Just off the top of my head: you now have a RAW legal way to get a Slaymate. Hello free metamagic on necromancy spells! ;D.



Another thing you may want to add is the feat Dilate Aura from the FCII. It allows you to double the range of your aura once per encounter. The expanded aura lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Charisma modifi er (minimum 1 round). This strikes me as an awesome feat for a fear focused DN.



As SirFredgar said, the Scarecrow can't be a Necropolitan because Snowcasting requires 13 Con. This means you need to fit in TTS somewhere in there. You should probably edit this in.



One candidate for a removed feat is Arcane Disciple (Pride). I don't think it's a very good feat for a DN. Your spells/minions will be far superior for killing your foes (instead of whacking them with your one martial weapon) even when they're paralyzed with fear. This leaves the hp you gain as the primary benefit. That combined with False Life and your DR makes you pretty hardy. Still, when you consider the investment (a feat and some otherwise useless investement in Wis) the feat doesn't seem so great (and doesn't really turn you into a gish either). If you want to get up close so your fear aura works and don't want to get splatted by the enemy, wouldn't it be better to just put your minions around you to soak hits?.



Also, Dread Witch doesn't actually punch through fear immunity completely. Targets with 4 more HD than your CL are still immune. You should probably mention this.



Finally I think you should edit in that while dropping at 8 isn't the mandatory thing that K made it sound like, it's not really that bad either. Some relevant quotes (by Malisteen and LinkLord231 respectively:



Perfectly reasonable house rules aside, the 8th level dread necromancer ability replaces the entire normal animate dead pool with the new limit. Ie, if you gain additional spellcaster levels outside of Dread necromancer, they won't give any additional control limit, although they'll still let you animate more HD in a single casting, allowing larger minions. In addition, other sources of increased caster level even for a character with only dread necromancer levels will not increase their maximum animate dead control pool, because, again, the 8th level ability does not add to the normal caster-level based limit, it replaces it entirely with a new class-level (which, yes, means levels in that class) based limit. An 8th level dread necromancer doesn't look at caster level at all when figuring maximum pool size for Animate Dead.

It's annoying, but if you max out cha you can kind of ignore it. An 8th level dread necro with maxed out cha has about the same animate dead limit as a 20th level regular caster, barring caster level bonuses, so its not costing you anything if you do only take 8 levels, and that 8th level is still worthwhile for the advanced learning. And the extra HP for your creations isn't bad. And Dread Necro builds can be feat starved to the point of skipping the Corpse Crafter chain entirely, at which point it's a much more meaningful ability. But it's not the magic dump point that K described it as. Ideal dump point actually seems to be 1st (for limitless out of combat healing), 5th (for fear aura), or maybe 7th (for the fancy familiar)."

I would also add that 12th lvl is also a good drop point since that is when you get the choice of 3 very good advanced learning spells: animate dread warrior, aura of terror and revive undead.



Regarding the whole "8th level drop point" debate:
The 8th level ability of the Dread Necromancer sets the control limit for animate dead to be based off of class level instead of caster level. This means that taking levels in prestige classes will not advance this limit. At first glance, this looks like a bad thing.
However, if you do some quick math, you realize that this is no problem whatsoever. The "normal" control limit for a 20th level character (disregarding things like the Deathbound domain) is 4*20 = 80 Hit Dice. A Dread Necro can get that right at 8th level with an 18 starting Cha + 2 racial + 2 levels. Your control limit would be (4+6)*8 = 80. Any more Cha boosts, such as your +6 cloak, +5 inherent, et cetera, all increase your control limit.
Yes, PrCing out at level 8 lessens your control limit compared to straight Dread Necro. But your control limit is already obscenely large; much bigger than anybody else can get without caster level cheese. So the question becomes this: Would you rather have even more minions (whose power drops off at higher levels), or class features that are more useful than 12 levels of Dread Necro?


Again it's not awesome (I like 12 the best personally) but I don't think it's deserving of the scorn you give it.

[tadkins]

This was a great guide. I've been wanting to play a Dread Necromancer in a game and I plan to bookmark this for when that day comes.

Just a couple of things I'm wondering about though, mostly in regards to skills.

1. Since DN's rely pretty much solely on CHA, but lack somewhat in versatility, wouldn't it be a good idea to cross-class some skill points into UMD? I figured that would help extend their options a bit.

2. Also, what about Ride? Being a necromancer, there's no doubt you can raise yourself a cool undead horse or perhaps even a dragon to ride.

[123456789blaaa]

Is this guide not being updated anymore? I would be happy to take over if Shneeky is too busy.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Is this guide not being updated anymore? I would be happy to take over if Shneeky is too busy.

I have tried to be patient. Apparently that doesn't work. So I'll simply address this. Once.

I haven't bothered responding to you or to your post (nearly a year-old necro-post too... good job with that) because, quite frankly, I've already rebutted those points and you have not bothered to make any new ones. Also I was fairly sure it was simply a troll account due to the name and obvious lack of forethought in said post.

However, if you absolutely insist, I shall be brief:

In the original concept of the Scarecrow build, he simply used Tomb-Tainted Soul to gain healing to negative energy rather than Necropolitian. In later versions, he simply uses Black Lore of Moil to deal damage, which in turn activates Fell x feats. Which does have a slight weakness in that immunity to negative energy makes you immune to the fell x rider. However, most of the things immune to negative energy damage are either Undead (in which case, they now belong to you via Command Undead), or Constructs (which you can deal with conventionally since you're a full-BAB gish).

Second, where are you getting the nonsense about 'more than four HD higher are immune'? Take another look, my friend. Heroes of Horror, page 86. Fear aura has no HD cap. If you are talking about the limitation on the Dread Witch class ability, it's based on caster level, not hit dice. Which can be pumped up trivially enough. There are plenty of other guides out there detailing how. Easiest is simply Divine Spellpower, since you're already using Southern Magician for Persisting Aura of Terror, and you only need to do it once a day, so blowing thirty-odd turn attempts at your one shtick seems a fair trade.

Dilate Fear is okay, I guess, but its limited duration is rather off-setting. Part of the advantage of the Scarecrow's Fear Aura is that he doesn't need to spend an action on it. And very few things are going to be a threat to him between 15' and 30' anyways. He's undead, so he's immune to precision-based damage, that's the only thing I could think of offhand.

Arcane Disciple (Pride) DOUBLES your BAB. If you don't know how useful that is to you, I really can't help you. Plus, yanno, having access to several other useful spells. And also many GMs frown on having a plethora of powerful minions, so being individually powerful is also important.

The debate about the level 8 drop has been hashed and re-hashed. It sucks. You're going to want to go to at least 12th for Aura of Terror/Animate Dread Warrior/Animate Skeletal Champion.

[Arcanist]

I haven't bothered responding to you or to your post (nearly a year-old necro-post too... good job with that)[...]

Handbooks usually get some leeway when it comes to Necro-threading, so the age of his question and comment isn't really important. Hell, as long as his question is legitimate and serious the handbook can be as old as is required. Just walking in too throw that out there :smalltongue:

[123456789blaaa]

I have tried to be patient. Apparently that doesn't work. So I'll simply address this. Once.

I haven't bothered responding to you or to your post (nearly a year-old necro-post too... good job with that) because, quite frankly, I've already rebutted those points and you have not bothered to make any new ones. Also I was fairly sure it was simply a troll account due to the name and obvious lack of forethought in said post.

However, if you absolutely insist, I shall be brief:

In the original concept of the Scarecrow build, he simply used Tomb-Tainted Soul to gain healing to negative energy rather than Necropolitian. In later versions, he simply uses Black Lore of Moil to deal damage, which in turn activates Fell x feats. Which does have a slight weakness in that immunity to negative energy makes you immune to the fell x rider. However, most of the things immune to negative energy damage are either Undead (in which case, they now belong to you via Command Undead), or Constructs (which you can deal with conventionally since you're a full-BAB gish).

Second, where are you getting the nonsense about 'more than four HD higher are immune'? Take another look, my friend. Heroes of Horror, page 86. Fear aura has no HD cap. If you are talking about the limitation on the Dread Witch class ability, it's based on caster level, not hit dice. Which can be pumped up trivially enough. There are plenty of other guides out there detailing how. Easiest is simply Divine Spellpower, since you're already using Southern Magician for Persisting Aura of Terror, and you only need to do it once a day, so blowing thirty-odd turn attempts at your one shtick seems a fair trade.

Dilate Fear is okay, I guess, but its limited duration is rather off-setting. Part of the advantage of the Scarecrow's Fear Aura is that he doesn't need to spend an action on it. And very few things are going to be a threat to him between 15' and 30' anyways. He's undead, so he's immune to precision-based damage, that's the only thing I could think of offhand.

Arcane Disciple (Pride) DOUBLES your BAB. If you don't know how useful that is to you, I really can't help you. Plus, yanno, having access to several other useful spells. And also many GMs frown on having a plethora of powerful minions, so being individually powerful is also important.

The debate about the level 8 drop has been hashed and re-hashed. It sucks. You're going to want to go to at least 12th for Aura of Terror/Animate Dread Warrior/Animate Skeletal Champion.

If you did not want to answer my questions you could have just said so and I would have stopped bothering you. However as you did not answer I had no way of knowing whether you had even seen my posts/pms. You say that you have "tried to be patient". I'm not really sure what you mean by that. What were you waiting for? You didn't even bother telling me to stop even once.

I have tried to be polite as I really like this handbook and you have been rude. Good day.

[Segev]

As one who has always lamented the minionmancer's inability to really start playing towards the schtick until 7th level (for a wizard), and one who has bemoaned Fell Animate's high cost for that very reason, I am interested in your claim that Kelgore's Grave Mist + Fell Animate can turn on at level 4. Is this just using Illumian, or is there some way for an arbitrary racial choice to achieve minionmancy that early?

My other concern - I've never really been big on fear effects, so I was fascinated to see the "Scarecrow" build be so...terrifying - is the Dread Witch's ability. It says it bypasses immunity to Fear. Does that cut through immunity to mind-affecting, because that immunity extends an immunity to fear? Or does the mind-affecting immunity still trump?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

As one who has always lamented the minionmancer's inability to really start playing towards the schtick until 7th level (for a wizard), and one who has bemoaned Fell Animate's high cost for that very reason, I am interested in your claim that Kelgore's Grave Mist + Fell Animate can turn on at level 4. Is this just using Illumian, or is there some way for an arbitrary racial choice to achieve minionmancy that early?Fell Animate can be tricky to pull off at level 4, but you'll be using many of the same tricks later on in your career anyways.

First off, Southern Magician + DMM can pull this off, if you wanted to. Southern Magician lets you treat the spell as either Arcane or Divine, which enables DMM, which you can fuel with your Rebuke Attempts.

Second off, you can get a Slaymate to reduce by one, you can get School Focus to reduce by another one for the Necromancy school, you can get Practical Metamagic for Fell Animate for another one, then Arcane Thesis on Kelgore's Grave Mist. Now, this will almost certainly require flaws to pull off due to all the feats, but you'll be using the Slaymate School Focus anyways, and this lets you drop Fell Animate on any damaging spell for the price of +1 Spell Level adjustment, which increases your flexibility later on.


My other concern - I've never really been big on fear effects, so I was fascinated to see the "Scarecrow" build be so...terrifying - is the Dread Witch's ability. It says it bypasses immunity to Fear. Does that cut through immunity to mind-affecting, because that immunity extends an immunity to fear? Or does the mind-affecting immunity still trump?

Well, there's several ways of thinking about that problem.

Some say that Specific Trumps General. Generally, immunity to mind-affecting includes immunity to fear effects. Specifically, Dread Witch bypasses that immunity to fear effects. Meaning it should work. Others state that you're just bypassing immunity to fear effects, such as a 4th level Paladin's class feature, not anything which just so happens to make you immune to fear effects, such as immunity to mind affecting.

Personally, I'm in the former camp. However, clear with your GM before embarking.

Of course, Scarecrow won't work on anything which is not damaged by negative energy damage (using Black Lore of Moil as the damage dealer on the Aura of Terror spell to activate Dread Frighten), like Undead. Of course, a high-level Dread Necro has other ways of dealing with those threats... Command Undead comes readily to mind, for example...

[Segev]

Hm, yeah. That's extremely feat intensive by level 4, and leaves you with dead feats prior to level 4. Useful if you start there, but annoying if you don't.

A wizard can get undead minions - if he can find pre-animated undead - by level 3, thanks to Command Undead, and a Dread Necromancer who can pull it off can gain commanded minions thanks to their Rebuke power as early as level 1, but...the inability to MAKE your own remains frustrating.

Then again... is there a way to get negative level applications at level 1? You could drain humanoids to 0 levels, wait for them to get up as Wights, and Command them then, perhaps.

I think what I like most about the "Scarecrow" build is that it really is a fairly solid Dread Necro, capable of decent minionmancy, even with its optimized trick. I'm picturing a Death Knight style of character whose one weapon prof. is in Lance and who charges in on an undead steed. Slip the Strength Domain on there somehow for Divine Power and it really works well.

Now, given that you're going to have at least Undead Mastery and possibly Corpsecrafter, is it possible to rig things such that you convert yourself to undead via a mechanism that would trigger that class feature and that feat (and its subsequent chain) so you can give yourself +4 HD/level and +4 Str and +4 Dex enhancement for "free?"

[Deophaun]

Second off, you can get a Slaymate to reduce by one.
I'm curious as to how many people run into slaymates while playing DNs. They aren't exactly common monsters, and they're not something that you can create.

[Segev]

I'd honestly love to see ways to create/find/obtain them that a player could do that wouldn't be completely dependent on DM fiat.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'd honestly love to see ways to create/find/obtain them that a player could do that wouldn't be completely dependent on DM fiat.

Technically, the entire game runs on DM Fiat.

First off, we have this passage:

Slaymates are undead creatures given
a semblance of life when a guardian’s
betrayal, either outright or through
negligence, leads to death. A slaymate’s
appearance is a weird and twisted reflec-
tion of the form it had in life.

So, set yourself up as a guardian of an orphanage, then betray them and slaughter them all. One of them ought to pop up eventually.

Second off, start hunting down other Necromancers until you find one that has one.

Third, Candle of Invocation and Wish for one. If you don't want to CoI, just do any other traditional sort of Planar Binding cheese.

[123456789blaaa]

I'd honestly love to see ways to create/find/obtain them that a player could do that wouldn't be completely dependent on DM fiat.

While I dislike entering this thread again:


In the online article Dead Life (
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20021031x) on the wizards website there is an item called the Shrouds of the Unholy. Here is it's description:


Shrouds of the Unholy: These shrouds, like shrouds of the holy, look like ordinary funerary wrappings for dead bodies and are often decorated with symbols and icons representing the dead rising. If a dead body is wrapped in the shroud, and the command word spoken, the body will return as undead. The type of undead it returns as is determined by the speaker of the command word. The undead creature is not under anyone's control when it rises. Wrapping a body takes 10 minutes. The magic of the shrouds is useable only once, after which the wrapping becomes ordinary, fine cloth.

Caster Level: 20th; Prerequisites: Craft Wondrous Item, animate dead, create undead, or create greater undead as appropriate; Market Price: 1,550 gp (animate dead), 12,250 gp (create undead), or 16,000 (create greater undead); Weight: 10 lbs.

There you go.

[Deophaun]

While this is active and the author is paying attention, there are some things that are missing...

First, Advanced Learning is not the only way to get new spells. You can get them through spell research as detailed in the DMG. Dread Necros do not have a limit on spells known, so anything they research they add to their spell list and can cast. As Advanced Learning already confirms that every single Cleric/Wizard Necromancy spell is a possible DN spell, that gives you a good selection of pre-approved research topics.

Second, there is a spell accessible through Advanced Learning that's easy to overlook because it's not a Necromancy spell. Door of decay (Complete Champion). Basically, think tree stride, but with teleportation's range and using your undead. It's a level 5 Conjuration (Teleportation) spell that explicitly can be chosen by a DN.

For the scarecrow, there's the Dilate Aura feat in Fiendish Codex II. Coupled with Aura of Terror, you get a 30' radius for Charisma rounds each encounter. Don't forget the Veil of Allure (MIC). +2 to the DCs of all your Cha-based Supernatural abilities.

[RFLS]

While I dislike entering this thread again:

There you go.

Nice, ninja-ed me. I was about to repost that for you. Also, good find. I had not seen that item before, and I've got a necromancer I've been toying with for a while that this would be perfect for.


While this is active and the author is paying attention, there are some things that are missing...

First, Advanced Learning is not the only way to get new spells. You can get them through spell research as detailed in the DMG. Dread Necros do not have a limit on spells known, so anything they research they add to their spell list and can cast. As Advanced Learning already confirms that every single Cleric/Wizard Necromancy spell is a possible DN spell, that gives you a good selection of pre-approved research topics.

Uhm...that's specific to prepared casters. Fixed list casters such as DN/Warmage/Beguiler did not exist at the time of writing for the DMG. This is a strictly DM fiat suggestion, and is not rules-legal.


For the scarecrow, there's the Dilate Aura feat in Fiendish Codex II. Coupled with Aura of Terror, you get a 30' radius for Charisma rounds each encounter. Don't forget the Veil of Allure (MIC). +2 to the DCs of all your Cha-based Supernatural abilities.

I believe 123456789blaaa pointed the feat out in his post, but I'm not sure about the item.

[Segev]

While I dislike entering this thread again:



There you go.

Hm, and that's even a reasonable price.

I have no idea why the Dread Necro gets CWI at 19th level. It's silly late. Anybody with plans to craft would already have it. But this is definitely a reason to pick up said feat if you can't get these items at your local black market.

It definitely becomes DM call whether Create Undead or Create Greater Undead - and thus what kind of shroud - would be "appropriate" for a Slaymate. But at the least, you can be certain that the Greater version covers "all possible kinds" since the shroud says it's of the player's choice, so ONE of them must be able to!

[RFLS]

Hm, and that's even a reasonable price.

I have no idea why the Dread Necro gets CWI at 19th level. It's silly late. Anybody with plans to craft would already have it. But this is definitely a reason to pick up said feat if you can't get these items at your local black market.

It gets it to allow the character to craft his phylactery. I'm not sure, but I believe that that's explicitly stated in the class description. I'll have to check.

[Deophaun]

Uhm...that's specific to prepared casters.
Then why does it say "A spellcaster of any kind can create a new spell?"

Fixed list casters such as DN/Warmage/Beguiler did not exist at the time of writing for the DMG.
Alternatively, the rules for spell research existed when fixed list casters were introduced.

This is a strictly DM fiat suggestion, and is not rules-legal.
By the same logic, possession of any magic item is strictly DM fiat suggestion.

But Advanced Learning already allows DNs to develop original spells, so it's as rules legal as taking Craft Wondrous Item to make a Cloak of Charisma.

[RFLS]

Then why does it say "A spellcaster of any kind can create a new spell?"

Again, because the writers of the DMG were unaware of the existence of fixed list casters.


Alternatively, the rules for spell research existed when fixed list casters were introduced.

And, in many places within the rulebooks, you will find suggestions that fixed list casters not be allowed to expand their spell lists without at least trading out some of their current spells known. I believe the PHB II and Complete Arcane entries for the beguiler and warmage, respectively, contain such a warning.


By the same logic, possession of any magic item is strictly DM fiat.

Yes. Short of crafting, it generally is. Rather, it's up to the DM what magic items you find. However, I'm missing the leap of logic that took you from "adding spells to a fixed-list caster's list is the same level of fiat necessary for magic items."

EDIT: To clarify, I'm missing how the two are in any way, shape, or form equivalent beyond being up to the DM.


But Advanced Learning already allows DNs to develop original spells, so it's as rules legal as taking Craft Wondrous Item to make a Cloak of Charisma.

Original spells are, and always have been, strictly DM fiat to create and use. As in, explicitly so in multiple places.

[Deophaun]

Again, because the writers of the DMG were unaware of the existence of fixed list casters.
So you're saying fixed-list casters are the first time the game came across non-prepared spellcasters? The writers had no clue the Bard or the Sorcerer existed?

And, in many places within the rulebooks, you will find suggestions that fixed list casters not be allowed to expand their spell lists without at least trading out some of their current spells known. I believe the PHB and Complete Arcane entries for the beguiler contain such a warning.
Oh, so we're changing it from "RAW doesn't let you research spells!" To "RAW requires you to swap out a spell from your list!" Well gosh. That will be harsh considering how all the spells on the DN's list are complete gems.

Yes. Short of crafting, it generally is. Rather, it's up to the DM what magic items you find. However, I'm missing the leap of logic that took you from "adding spells to a fixed-list caster's list is the same level of fiat necessary for magic items."
So, again, we're going from "Yes, it is the same" to "No, it's not!" Only this time, in the space of a paragraph.

BTW:If I missed your object to listing magic items in a class guide because it's DM fiat, I'm sorry.



Original spells are, and always have been, strictly DM fiat to create and use. As in, explicitly so in multiple places.
Except they aren't, because that's what Advanced Learning does. A Dread Necromancer shivering touch is an original spell. There is no "Dread Necromancer 3" entry in the spell description.

[RFLS]

So you're saying fixed-list casters are the first time the game came across non-prepared spellcasters? The writers had no clue the Bard or the Sorcerer existed?

Fixed-list casters are a subset of spontaneous casters. They did not exist at the time of writing for the DMG.


Oh, so we're changing it from "RAW doesn't let you research spells!" To "RAW requires you to swap out a spell from your list!" Well gosh. That will be harsh considering how all the spells on the DN's list are complete gems.

No. We're not. RAW, you're limited to the printed spells and have no access to original spells. There are suggestions for researching original spells, and more suggestions that you not be allowed to expand a fixed-list caster's spell list beyond its original size. But RAW, you can't do it at all.


So, again, we're going from "Yes, it is the same" to "No, it's not!" Only this time, in the space of a paragraph.

See above.


BTW:If I missed your object to listing magic items in a class guide because it's DM fiat, I'm sorry.

What?


Except they aren't, because that's what Advanced Learning does. A Dread Necromancer shivering touch is an original spell. There is no "Dread Necromancer 3" entry in the spell description.

Cool, let's check this out:


Advanced Learning (Ex): At 4th level, a dread necromancer can add a new spell to her list, representing the result of personal study and experimentation.

Looking good so far.


The spell must be a cleric or wizard spell of the necromancy school, and of a level no higher than that of the highest-level spell the dread necromancer already knows.

Well...that really blows your point out of the water. The spell he learns has to be a wizard or cleric spell. By RAW, the only ones that exist are those that are printed, as opposed to original ones.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

While this is active and the author is paying attention, there are some things that are missing...

First, Advanced Learning is not the only way to get new spells. You can get them through spell research as detailed in the DMG. Dread Necros do not have a limit on spells known, so anything they research they add to their spell list and can cast. As Advanced Learning already confirms that every single Cleric/Wizard Necromancy spell is a possible DN spell, that gives you a good selection of pre-approved research topics.The entire spell research function is entirely by GM Fiat. There's a *HUGE* difference between Spontaneous casters like Bard and Sorcerer, and static list casters like Beguiler or Dread Necro. The former still has to pick and choose which spells he has as Known, and will have to select his researched spell as Known to be able to cast it. A Beguiler or Dread Necromancer just needs them thrown on their list. Which is why feats like Arcane Disciple are so powerful for them.

I don't think any sane GM would permit a static-list caster from doing research to add spells to their spell list for effectively free.


Second, there is a spell accessible through Advanced Learning that's easy to overlook because it's not a Necromancy spell. Door of decay (Complete Champion). Basically, think tree stride, but with teleportation's range and using your undead. It's a level 5 Conjuration (Teleportation) spell that explicitly can be chosen by a DN.That's cute, but it's also kind of stuck in an odd position. You see, being a level 5 spell, you really can't get it before CL 10. However, you don't get Advanced Learning until CL 8 and CL 12. And when you hit CL 12, either Animate Dread Warrior/Skeletal Champion or Aura of Terror is simply going to be the better option, depending on your focus.

I'm not saying it is a bad spell, I'm just saying that there are too many other good options at that level which are just so much better.


For the scarecrow, there's the Dilate Aura feat in Fiendish Codex II. Coupled with Aura of Terror, you get a 30' radius for Charisma rounds each encounter. Don't forget the Veil of Allure (MIC). +2 to the DCs of all your Cha-based Supernatural abilities.

Hmm... I was looking at the version in Libris Mortis which had a limited number of uses per day. If this is per encounter, then it might well be worth including.

[Deophaun]

Fixed-list casters are a subset of spontaneous casters. They did not exist at the time of writing for the DMG.
And? What does that have to do with spell research being an option for prepared casters only?

No. We're not. RAW, you're limited to the printed spells and have no access to original spells. There are suggestions for researching original spells, and more suggestions that you not be allowed to expand a fixed-list caster's spell list beyond its original size. But RAW, you can't do it at all.
Of course you can. There are Rules that have been Written for researching spells.

What?
I'm just assuming that you're being consistent, and against DM fiat generally. Since magic items are the domain of the DM, I expect that I just glanced over your objection to magic item suggestions.

Well...that really blows your point out of the water. The spell he learns has to be a wizard or cleric spell. By RAW, the only ones that exist are those that are printed, as opposed to original ones.
How does that blow my point out of the water, exactly? Yes, he has the spell he adds has to have been on the Wizard or Cleric lists, as I already stated. However, he's not casting a Wizard or Cleric spell. Otherwise, the Wizard spell would be subject to ASF, even in light armor, or the Cleric spell would be Divine, and ready for DMM right out of the box. Instead, he's casting a Dread Necromancer version of the spell. That is original. It's a class feature allowing the research of original spells. Not DM fiat!

[Segev]

Perhaps arguing over whether creating new spells adds to the spells known list of a character or not should be its own thread?

This one's supposed to be about the Dread Necromancer in particular, and I like to think about the tangential build quirks associated therewith (such as my personal favorite, minionmancy).

[Segev]

Another question on the spells for Advanced Learning: Black Sand, specifically.

I've seen it claimed that the Black Sand created when a creature dissolves into the stuff upon death is permanent. I don't understand where the RAW supports this, however. The spell has a duration. It says that creatures which die crumble into the stuff, but without specifying that the stuff remains, it seems to me it would just end with the rest of the spell. The only RAW effect I can justify from reading the spell is that there is no corpse left behind.

Is there some clear distinction that makes that inaccurate and definitely causes Black Sand to be left behind "permanently" when corpses dissolve into it?

[Norin]

Sorry if this has been covered already, but any thoughts around the corrupt spells that dn's access to according to the class description in heroes of horror?

It's just a little afterthought on the end of the class entry, just before prestige classes are covered,

It's strange, but is it (ab)usable?

[Deophaun]

Is there some clear distinction that makes that inaccurate and definitely causes Black Sand to be left behind "permanently" when corpses dissolve into it?
Nothing clear. But, just as instanteous effects can leave behind non-magical permanent effects, it can be interpreted that the "crumbles to black sand" is such an effect. Otherwise, the question is why not just say "dissolves?"

But yeah, talk to your DM.

[Segev]

Nothing clear. But, just as instanteous effects can leave behind non-magical permanent effects, it can be interpreted that the "crumbles to black sand" is such an effect. Otherwise, the question is why not just say "dissolves?"

But yeah, talk to your DM.

Well, I think the "...into black sand" is likely just to make the visual cooler than simply "dissolves." So that's a "why." I can't think of a DM who'd let me get away with effectively making an area-damage spell permanent just by killing somebody with it, is the thing. Thus, even for TO, this seems like something that really needs firmer wording than "I can argue it might" before it's listed as definitely something you can do as part of a handbook.

[RFLS]

Perhaps arguing over whether creating new spells adds to the spells known list of a character or not should be its own thread?

This one's supposed to be about the Dread Necromancer in particular, and I like to think about the tangential build quirks associated therewith (such as my personal favorite, minionmancy).

Crazy talk! Nah, you're right. Here's (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15761647) a link to the spinoff thread. Thank you for catching us on it.

[Deophaun]

Well, I think the "...into black sand" is likely just to make the visual cooler than simply "dissolves."
Welcome to the problem of blending fluff and crunch! :smallbiggrin:

[123456789blaaa]

Sorry if this has been covered already, but any thoughts around the corrupt spells that dn's access to according to the class description in heroes of horror?

It's just a little afterthought on the end of the class entry, just before prestige classes are covered,

It's strange, but is it (ab)usable?

I'm not sure of the RAW on this. Does it mean that all of those spells are automatically on the list? Does it mean you can learn them through the Advanced Learning ability? Is it just talking about how you can take the Corrupt Arcana feat like any other spontaneous caster? Someone should probably call Curmudgeon.

[Segev]

Welcome to the problem of blending fluff and crunch! :smallbiggrin:

Oh, never debated that separating fluff from crunch was the stuff of which rules lawyering was made!

I do think, however, here, that basing the idea that it is an instantaneous transformation effect on the logic of, "why else mention it?" when there is a perfectly good reason to mention it makes that claim not really a strong one.

That's the issue I'm having with it; it feels like it's a gross stretch to make the words cover a desired but almost certainly unintended effect, rather than a clear reading of the RAW that leads to unintended consequences (or a reading of the RAW that reveals an intent that may have been unclear without it).

Basically, since the Black Sand goes away when the spell ends, the black sand is gone when it ends. Nothing in the spell says otherwise. The spell's duration is not Instantaneous, and nowhere does it state that anything created by the spell - other than the usual (hit points lost, deaths caused, etc.) that never needs individual mention - persists past the point that the spell ends. The only water the argument of "but it says they turn into black sand, so..." might hold lies in the question, "why else mention it?" And that question is easily answered: "because the look is of becoming part of the spell effect, rather than of simply disintegrating."

Since black sand is the spell effect, it would still go away when the spell ends. It doesn't even give mechanics for the spell effect expanding due to increased volume of black sand from a corpse: technically, a colossal ooze or dragon or what-have-you that dissolves into black sand due to dying from this effect doesn't make the effect's area any bigger, despite the creature covering more space with its corpse than the spell effect covers.

If it was in any way permanently there, there'd have to be mechanics explaining how MUCH remains after the spell ends, or at least how much is generated by the corpse in order to determine how much remains after the spell ends.

Anyway. I'm really not trying to be pedantic, despite my long-windedness. I'm just saying, I don't think this is a case of ambiguous wording so much as wishful thinking on our parts to try to stretch words to mean something other than their plain description. It can be read to do exactly what it says it does and leave nothing behind when the spell ends; therefore, claims that it does more based on an alternative reading are spurious.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Another question on the spells for Advanced Learning: Black Sand, specifically.

I've seen it claimed that the Black Sand created when a creature dissolves into the stuff upon death is permanent. I don't understand where the RAW supports this, however. The spell has a duration. It says that creatures which die crumble into the stuff, but without specifying that the stuff remains, it seems to me it would just end with the rest of the spell. The only RAW effect I can justify from reading the spell is that there is no corpse left behind.

Is there some clear distinction that makes that inaccurate and definitely causes Black Sand to be left behind "permanently" when corpses dissolve into it?Welcome to yet another long and hotly contested topic which has never really gotten a clear-cut answer!

If it is self-duplicating, then you suddenly run into a Grey Ooze problem (no, not the monster, the nanomachine theoretical problem). Eventually, the whole world would be covered with the stuff.

However, the stuff is also specifically mentioned under Supernatural Waste Hazards, meaning you don't need a spell to make any. And it does explicitly state

"Upon reaching 0 hit points, they crumble
and join the black sand."

Honestly, the best method is to find some 'natural' Black Sand and start there. That way, you can be certain that the effects will not be temporary.

[Segev]

However, the stuff is also specifically mentioned under Supernatural Waste Hazards, meaning you don't need a spell to make any. And it does explicitly state

"Upon reaching 0 hit points, they crumble
and join the black sand."

Honestly, the best method is to find some 'natural' Black Sand and start there. That way, you can be certain that the effects will not be temporary.

This, I will agree with. Find some of the natural stuff and work from there. The spell saying they "join the black sand" adds further fuel to the "it goes away WITH the black sand" argument.

So yeah. Find naturally-occurring stuff. If you need a theoretical by-the-mechanics way to get it and there's no market value, figure out a proper divination spell to locate it, and hire somebody to cast it for you.

[FlayerIV]

*Grins*

This is my favourite thread ever. Thanks for posting this!

[Meowmasterish]

I'm surprised that no one brought up Haunt Shift. Admittedly, it's kind of cheese, but so is the Black Sands discussion.
Anyway, it's a level 5 spell, so it can only be learned through Advanced Learning at level 12. It turns up to 1 HD/Caster Level (Max HD per Creature=9) creatures into Haunting Presences of the same HD, if you do this with a HD 5 or higher undead, you can create a Poltergeist, which can move a haunted object in a way it can already be moved. (Like a door on hinges.) If you have enough resources, you can build an Adamantine or Obdurium statue with movable joints, Haunt Shift an undead into it and have a nearly unkillable warrior to send into battle.

[Foivos]

Now this might be a bit of a stretch but I want to make some comments on creating truly powerful undead minions. My PCs slayed a Pit Fiend and wanted to reanimate it (they had the unconscious body). The campaign power level is sufficient that this is reasonable, and I (the DM) in fact wanted them to. After looking through all the ways to reanimate undead I found that making the pit fiend into a mummy was the only way to keep all abilities of the devil (look at the Mummyfied Creature entry in Savage species). But to create a mummy you need to do so with Create undead which does not place the animated dead under your control. So the only way to really control it would be with rebuke undead. The complete process for creating the Pit Fiend mummy was the following:
1) Place 9 or more good aligned items on the pit fiend's unconscious body.
2) Cast Feeblemind on it until it works (not necessary but given how it get 1 round after it is risen it is easier to make sure it can't teleport away or something similar. It can still stand up and hit someone once, but oh well. If you can restrain the pit fiend mummy for 1 round otherwise then skip steps 1-3)
3) Remove the good aligned items from it
4) Kill the Pit Fiend
5) Place the good aligned items on it again
6) Create undead it as a mummy
7) Rebuke it with a rebuke level of at least 18 since it now has only 9HD
8) Command it to remove all items on it
9) Cast harm on it to remove feeblemind

I think all of the above should work. two comments:
1) I am unsure if feeblemind persists after death, but given how it is a condition placed on a body with an infinite duration I don't see why a corpse would not still be feebleminded (especially given how dying and being resurrected does not rid you of the condition)
2) The trick is that in theory, after the Pit Fiend dies it is no longer an evil creature, so the good items on it do not longer give it negative levels. So when it is raised as a mummy it has all 18 of its HD, which immediately drop to 9 (or less) because it is once more evil.

I am going to have the Pit Fiend spellstiched and it is going to serve as the party support caster from now on since they need one.
Thoughts/comments?

[Sergio]

In most guides I've read, people do say that you should take maximum 8 levels in the dread necromancer, then switch for something else. I don't understand what is this 'something else'. Are these wizard levels? Cleric levels? I'm really curious, because judging by what you've written on the prestige classes section, all the classes do suck.

:smallconfused:

[drake_vampiel]

You do not gain the lich template at DN20. You get a phylactery and the undead type, that's it. The whole point of Dread Necromancer is that you get all the **** the lich gets, but spread out over 20 levels. If you want the template, take the template.

You are half right, you don't technically get the template, but you for all intense and purposes are a Lich at level 20, why would you take the template when it really does nothing more than waste your character because if you have Lich powers why would you want to keep getting powers you already have.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Love the guide! :smallredface: For the Scarecrow build, it might be better to go 4 levels of Dread Witch instead of 5; one of the capstone's is redundant with your fear aura, and while Reflective Fear could potentially be used to infinitely loop beneficial or multi-target spells the rules are unclear as to whether it reflects just the fear effect or the whole spell (including metamagic, AOE, etc.). This would make you lose out short-term with Advanced Learning, but you'd come out ahead by getting the level 16 Advanced Learning (with 9th level spells, too). Alternatively, you've got a free level you can use on, say, Tainted Scholar. Arbitrarily high casting stat sounds like a nice capstone to me!

[Jervis]

Best this very googd

So the handbook on necromancy is subject to thread necromancy? Pottery