Leap attack mounted?

[Silverlich]

Can you use leap attack from a mount?
That is, can you get the benefits of leap attack while riding a horse like you can from charging?

[herrhauptmann]

I say:
No, not if you still want to use your mounted feats. Others say it's okay.

Simple solution?
Play a Tauric creature. Centaur, Bariaur, Tauric template, etc.
Taurics can qualify for mounted combat feat chain (look at the inevitable in MM1, and centaurs in Races of Faerun). And since they're both mount and rider, there's no issue with them also jumping as part of the attack.

[Quietus]

I would have to agree. In order to use Leap Attack, one must make a Jump check. This means that you are airborne, thus, not mounted. Of course, this speaks to the general level of game that I want to run, too; I don't think one-shotting something is appropriate.

[Waker]

One could argue that you could use the mounts jump to use Leap Attack. Here's the snippet from Ride in PH.

Leap: You can get your mount to leap obstacles as part of its movement. Use your Ride modifier or the mount’s Jump modifier, whichever is lower, to see how far the creature can jump. If you fail your Ride check, you fall off the mount when it leaps and take the appropriate falling damage (at least 1d6 points). This usage does not take an action, but is part of the mount’s movement.
And then Leap Attack.

You can combine a jump with a charge against an opponent. If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you can double the extra damage dealt by your use of the Power Attack feat. If you use this tactic with a two-handed weapon, you instead triple the extra damage from Power Attack.
This attack must follow all the normal rules for using the Jump skill and for making a charge, except that you ignore rough terrain in any squares you jump over
Using the Ride skill in that fashion does allow you to make a special jump check, so I would allow it if a player tried it, though I can see why some people might not.

[Silverlich]

Excellent. Time to make an ubercharger centaur cavalier.

[Kenneth]

I was under the impression that the uber charger DID his thousands of damage from leap attack from his mount with a lance with other such feats class features and enchantments.


and I am pretty sure than it does not say that you have to be standing on the ground to qualify for Leap Attack

another point. You definately get more force behind your blow leaping form a moving object than just by yourself.

[herrhauptmann]

Excellent. Time to make an ubercharger centaur cavalier.

Nah, go Bariaur from Manual of the Plains.
No racial hitdice, and while the stat boosts are lower than centaur, so is your LA.

Kenneth,
Part of why I say you shouldn't get Leap Attack, is that when you jump off your horse, you're no longer mounted. So you shouldn't get the use of your mounted combat feats anymore. And while jumping from a horse should give more force (because the horse is faster) than running and jumping, it's still less force than if I'm seated and braced in my saddle (don't look at western cowboy saddles, you can't joust/fight in those).

Anyway, that's the reasoning I'll use in my games. Which has no bearing on how your games are run.

[deuxhero]

I think TC meant having the mount leap...

[Curmudgeon]

Using the Ride skill in that fashion does allow you to make a special jump check, so I would allow it ...
Since it only allows the mount to make the Jump check, or you to make a Ride check, it doesn't meet Leap Attack's stipulation:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump
You could have your mount take Leap Attack, of course; that would give them the feat's benefits while you did a normal mounted charge attack.

[Silverlich]

Where could I find a 3.5 update to bariaur?

[Greenish]

Where could I find a 3.5 update to bariaur?BoED, but that has higher LA.

[LordBlades]

The issue is a bit ambiguous in the rules(there's not a definite yes or no answer anywhere in the rules) so it's best to be decided by the DM. Depending on the power level of your game, it might or not be too strong.

[Silverlich]

I almost feel like that one extra level of centaur compared to BoED bariaur, while annoying, gives an extra +4 strength, +2 constitution, +4 dexterity, +2 charisma, +2 wisdom, -2 intelligence, 10 more feet of base land speed, +1 to the fighter's two weak saves, and another point of BAB. Also, +3 natural armor bonus. This is actually a nicer level than just another level of fighter.

[herrhauptmann]

BoED, but that has higher LA.

Manual of the planes does have a 3.5 conversion.

[Silverlich]

Where could I find it?

[Urpriest]

Where could I find it?

More relevantly, the guy is in the Planar Handbook, a 3.5 book that came after BoED.

[Person_Man]

My understanding of the RAW is that you cannot use Leap Attack while mounted. Leap attack specifies that "you" cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump. You must therefore make a Jump check. Not your mount. Also, a Centaur or Bariaur have a special ability that reads "A centaur employing a lance deals double damage when it charges, just as a rider on a mount does." You do not count as mounted just for being a Centaur or Bariar. You simply deal double damage with a lance on a charge. So they could combine a lance with Leap Attack, but would need to ride another (larger) creature in order to benefit from Spirited Charge, which requires that you "be mounted."

Also, there's no particular reason to combine Leap Attack while mounted. There are a dozen ways to multiply damage without going into questionable rules territory. For example:



Manyfang Dagger: Deals quadruple damage on each hit, or quintuple on a critical hit. Bonus dice of damage (like Sneak Attack) are never multiplied, and Power Attack can’t be applied to light weapons. But it works VERY well with Smite, Craven, and Incarnum bonuses. 32,302 gp, Serpent Kingdoms pg 152.
Lance: Pretty basic piece of equipment which most melee characters should have. PHB.
Spirited Charge: Multiplies damage on Charge from a mount. PHB.
Riding Boots: Unnamed bonus to Ride, and if you have Spirited Charge you further multiply your damage when you Charge. DMGII pg 270.
Centaur, Bariaur, Raptorian, Dragonborn, and all have abilities that double damage on a Charge with a lance or on a diving (flying) Charge.
Headlong Rush: Multiplies damage on any Charge, but provokes an attack of opportunity from everyone who threatens you (including your target). This can be avoided with a reach weapon. Or it can be used to your advantage with a King of Smack Karmic Strike/Vampiric Claws combo. Player's Guide to Faerun.
Rhino's Rush (Pal 2): Immediate Action spell. Multiplies damage on a Charge. Spell Compendium.
Battle Jump: Multiplies damage on a Charge if you drop from at least 10 feet above your enemy - which can be done with a moderately high Jump check, or by attacking from higher ground. Unapproachable East.
Valorous weapon enhancement: Multiplies damage on a Charge. Unapproachable East.
Anything with a good critical hit range or multiplier. Given the existence of the Scabbard of Keen Edges, I personally never bother with the Keen enhancement or wasting a feat on Improved Critical when there are so many other better options for feats. But this is debatable. PHB/DMG.
Devastating Smite (Paladin/Blackguard/Cleric 1): Swift Action. Your next Smite attempt deals double damage. Not limited to Smite Evil. The Forge of War pg 113.



The Tarrasque has 858 hit points, and I'm not aware of any non-homebrew creature with more hit points. With Pounce, a reasonably high to-hit, and a reasonable number of attacks, you can get to that damage output fairly simply via a wide variety of methods. Optimizing your damage output beyond that level is self defeating.

[Big Fau]

I was under the impression that the uber charger DID his thousands of damage from leap attack from his mount with a lance with other such feats class features and enchantments.


He does. And it's squarely in the territory of TO, because you apply Leap Attack and Mounted Charge benefits to every attack made, and use Pounce to make a Full Attack.

[Silverlich]

I've been trying to understand how ubercharger works...How do you obtain pounce?

[Urpriest]

I've been trying to understand how ubercharger works...How do you obtain pounce?

Complete Champion lets Barbarians trade Fast Movement for it. There are more complicated options, but that's the easiest.

[Silverlich]

Thanks Ur-Priest!:smallsmile:

[Silverlich]

Wait...it doesn't seem like bariaurs are considered mounted....

[herrhauptmann]

Also, a Centaur or Bariaur have a special ability that reads "A centaur employing a lance deals double damage when it charges, just as a rider on a mount does." You do not count as mounted just for being a Centaur or Bariar.

I'd been using a line from the Zelekhut for the bariaur qualifying for mounted combat.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#zelekhut

Feats

Due to its centaur-like construction, a zelekhut qualifies for feats as if it had the Mounted Combat feat.

[Person_Man]

I'd been using a line from the Zelekhut for the bariaur qualifying for mounted combat.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm#zelekhut

That seems reasonable to me.

But the zelekhut also contains text which states: "A zelekhut may initially appear rather non-threatening—but when it is about to enter combat, it can cause two spiked chains to spring forth from its forearms as a free action." Spiked chains are two handed weapons, but it appears from this description and from it's stat block (Str of 21 with only +5 damage to each spiked chain attack, not +7 like you would expect from a two handed weapon) that the zelekhut ignores the normal weapons rules. So maybe they're not the best example to use for a house rule.

[herrhauptmann]

That seems reasonable to me.

But the zelekhut also contains text which states: "A zelekhut may initially appear rather non-threatening—but when it is about to enter combat, it can cause two spiked chains to spring forth from its forearms as a free action." Spiked chains are two handed weapons, but it appears from this description and from it's stat block (Str of 21 with only +5 damage to each spiked chain attack, not +7 like you would expect from a two handed weapon) that the zelekhut ignores the normal weapons rules. So maybe they're not the best example to use for a house rule.
Ya know, I'd never noticed the discrepancy with his attacks before.
2 weapon fighting, with 2 handed weapons? No penalties vs single weapon, and both weapons get the same strength bonus...

[etrpgb]

The Tarrasque has 858 hit points, and I'm not aware of any non-homebrew creature with more hit points.

The SRD monster with more PF I think is the Great wyrm Prismatic Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm) with 2613 on average.

[LordBlades]

Tbh you don't really need to go that far. Even using a (rather small) fraction of all the ways to make ubercahrgers awesome(such as pounce+leap attack+shock trooper+valorous weapon or valorous lance+spirited charge )is more than enough to one-shot most(dragons might require a bit more optimization) level appropriate encounters.

[etrpgb]

About the topic I think you can leap attack while mounted. If your mount is jumping you also are jumping, just think to any horse race: would you think that the human is not jumping the obstacles?

So take your valorous lance and charge to your heart content. If the DM if unhappy he should just use protections like illusions or cover.

[Urpriest]

Ya know, I'd never noticed the discrepancy with his attacks before.
2 weapon fighting, with 2 handed weapons? No penalties vs single weapon, and both weapons get the same strength bonus...

It's spiked chains, not Spiked Chains. It's just got natural weapons that happen to have the same name as the manufactured weapon. Their reach with them is still only 10ft, for example, despite their Large size.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Thanks to that faerun book, though centuars do RAW count for mounted combat in addition to their other mounted exceptions. Only BG trolls like bowen don'

[Curmudgeon]

Thanks to that faerun book, though centuars do RAW count for mounted combat in addition to their other mounted exceptions.
Which Faerûn book is that? Races of Faerûn is a 3.0 book, so that's all been superseded by the 3.5 Monster Manual treatment of Centaurs. Is there some more current source that you were referring to?

[etrpgb]

Rules -1: if RAW does not explain well, make the choice that is more fun for the game.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

Which Faerûn book is that? Races of Faerûn is a 3.0 book, so that's all been superseded by the 3.5 Monster Manual treatment of Centaurs. Is there some more current source that you were referring to?

The combat, society, and centaurs as characters have been overwritten by MM1, but not the other parts (like explicit allowance of using horsesho

[Curmudgeon]

The combat, society, and centaurs as characters have been overwritten by MM1, but not the other parts (like explicit allowance of using horsesho
So then it's up to individual DM judgment as to whether those "other parts" should be retained, or discarded as part of the minor adjustments necessary when using material from older versions of the game.

[Snails]

My understanding of the RAW is that you cannot use Leap Attack while mounted. Leap attack specifies that "you" cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump. You must therefore make a Jump check. Not your mount.

I am not so sure.

If we read the RAW exactly that way, then mounted charges are logically impossible. "You must move at least 10 feet."

"You" do not perform a "Move", your mount "Moves", you are along for the ride.

"You" do not perform a "Jump", your mount "Jumps", you are along for the ride.

Should we interpret these situations completely differently?

The charge rules imply that your mount's movement count as your movement. A jump is just a sub-action within movement.

The Leap Attack feat does not say you must make a Jump check, only you must follow all the usual rules for jumping. The Jump skill implicitly allows for the variations under the Ride skill.