[FR] How does The Wall work for races with their own death god? [Archive]

Jeraa

2011-09-05, 12:19 AM

The Wall of the Faithless doesn't make sense. It's cool and I loved Mask of the Betrayer. But it's stupid. In a setting where clerics invoke divine powers regularly and at one points THE GODS WALKED THE EARTH, how do you not believe in a deity? Or ignore them?

Wizards can do much the same as clerics, but without the aid of a god. Maybe to some of the realms inhabitants, clerics are just another form of wizard. And the gods? Just really powerful wizards.

Just because someone can see a really powerful being, doesn't mean that that person will see that being as a god. There are powerful angels, demons, and devils, but none of those are divine, and some of the more powerful of those creatures rival the power of the weaker deities. Just what makes a being a god instead of just another powerful outsider?

And some of the faithless may believe that those beings are gods, but since those beings don't/haven't/won't do anything to help in a time of crisis, the gods aren't worthy of worship. "What good is a god of healing that allows disease to spread amongst the people? Why should I worship someone that allows that to happen?"

Kenneth

2011-09-05, 12:33 AM

Psyren

2011-09-05, 12:52 AM

I would guess the same reason why people do not believe in a deity today.

You mean the inability to pray for cool spells? Because FR folks totally get that, so that's no excuse. And even the ones that aren't allowed to do it themselves can still see/respect its effects.

Wizards can do much the same as clerics, but without the aid of a god.

Instead of a god, they need complicated formulae, precise gestures, bat poop + cobwebs, and genius-level intellect. And since this is FR we're talking about, lol @ you because several gods can simply decide to shut off your magic power anyway, arcane be damned.

Compare that to just needing a symbol, and asking. Oh, and you can wear armor/a shield while you do it, which from FR's pseudo-medieval standpoint is the height of sense and practicality.

And then let's talk the pouch, which from an in-universe perspective, becomes a huge pain in the ass. It means you actually have to go "gleaning", or hitting up the bazaar to purchase the gleanings of others, or sending your familiar to do it for you. Eschew Materials is a great solution for this, but judging from all the novels doesn't appear to be all that common in FR below certain levels.

FelixG

2011-09-05, 12:59 AM

And sorcerers are just a bit weaker than wizards, they can do it without those silly components, and they don't have to spend time praying or worry about loosing their symbol.

So the common folk could say "oh hey that cleric is getting his spells from a god!" or a common unbeliever could just shrug and think its some different kind of arcane casting that the cleric thinks is from a god

Heck a sorcerer could claim he got his powers from a long lost mystical toad in his family linage but that doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about, a commoner could think the same thing about the cleric :smallbiggrin:

Yrcrazypa

2011-09-05, 01:03 AM

Atheism in the FR is typically more not thinking deities are worthy of their worship, and less absolutely not believing in them at all. Of course, there are some who will take up the belief that the gods are just really powerful wizards, and not actually gods, but most are faithless by choice of not wanting to give their devotion to them.

Psyren

2011-09-05, 01:17 AM

And sorcerers are just a bit weaker than wizards, they can do it without those silly components, and they don't have to spend time praying or worry about loosing their symbol.

You're thinking PF - in Faerun, Sorcerers and Bards need components just like wizards do. They don't need the same level of study but you also can't really "become" one either.

Atheism in the FR is typically more not thinking deities are worthy of their worship, and less absolutely not believing in them at all. Of course, there are some who will take up the belief that the gods are just really powerful wizards, and not actually gods, but most are faithless by choice of not wanting to give their devotion to them.

It can also be due to not having a patron - for instance, never choosing one, or renouncing the one you had (or the one you had renouncing you) but not deciding on another before death.

Alleran

2011-09-05, 04:13 AM

How exactly do they work out if they are faithless?

Examples include Dragons (who have Null).
Kelemvor has supreme authority over the portfolio of Death. When you die, you go to him, and from there, if you have a deity (whether that happens to be a different race to human or not), you'll go to that deity's realm. If your actions were often in alignment with a particular deity despite not actually having them as a patron, Kelemvor may also send you to that deity's domain, since you have proven yourself a true follower of that god even if you didn't really follow all the precepts of the official church. Drizzt has a relationship akin to this with Mielikki - he doesn't necessarily follow all the doctrinal requirements, but follows her in a more personal sense.

Oh, and you can sell your soul to a demon/devil before you're judged.

And atheism does exist in FR, but it's extremely rare. It's less that "there are no gods" and more that they acknowledge the existence of powerful beings, but don't believe that makes them worthy of a "godhood" moniker or worship. Given that most in FR know all too well what happens to them upon death (to the Wall with you!), even if they don't know the exact specifics, it's obviously not a popular perspective.

Lans

2011-09-05, 06:24 AM

What about people who worship dead/false gods?

Kefkafreak

2011-09-05, 06:26 AM

What about ur-priests? :smallbiggrin:

Tebryn

2011-09-05, 06:31 AM

How exactly do they work out if they are faithless?

Examples include Dragons (who have Null).

Dragons do not have Null...I do not even believe that such a deity existed for Dragon-kind in 3.5 or 3.0. Probably not before then either.

Morty

2011-09-05, 06:33 AM

What about people who worship dead/false gods?

They wind up in the Wall too.
The whole scheme works as follows - once you die, you end up on the Fugue Plane. If you worship a deity, it sends a servant to take your soul to its plane. If you don't, there's noone to take your soul anywhere so you wind up in the Wall, unless you make a deal with the devils who have an enclave there.

Psyren

2011-09-05, 06:45 AM

What about people who worship dead/false gods?

Mostly what Morty said; there seems to be some level of divine trickery allowed though, such as one goddess (Auril? Umberlee?) granting spells in Ubtao's name while he sleeps.

What about ur-priests? :smallbiggrin:

No doubt, in Faerun's far more restrictive cosmology, Ur-Priests would either not exist or be forced to choose the "dead god" option due to notables such as Moander and Myrkul floating around.

Feytalist

2011-09-05, 07:30 AM

Mostly what Morty said; there seems to be some level of divine trickery allowed though, such as one goddess (Auril? Umberlee?) granting spells in Ubtao's name while he sleeps.

It's Auril. Tiamat is also being worshiped as Entropy and Sseth. At least, in 3.5. I refuse to acknowledge the existence of a 4.0 FR.

Qwertystop

2011-09-05, 07:34 AM

What's the Wall?

Feytalist

2011-09-05, 07:49 AM

The Wall of the Faithless is a literal wall made out of dead souls on the Fugue Plane, where all souls go when they die. If you had a patron deity, they send someone to come get you. If you don't, you eventually end up in the wall for eternity.

Huh. I was looking for a decent explanatory link to post here, but I could only find links to Mask of the Betrayer, where the wall is a major plot point.

Qwertystop

2011-09-05, 08:02 AM

Wow...

So you just drift closer to it until you go splat or get picked up?

Feytalist

2011-09-05, 08:33 AM

I think after X days (10 days? something like that), you get judged by Kelemvor, deity of the dead and sentenced to the wall if no-one has come to pick you up yet. The demons have a deal with Kelemvor that allows the faithless to sell their souls to be spared, but I think other than that it's pretty much inevitable.

MotB described it quite nicely.

FelixG

2011-09-05, 08:43 AM

You're thinking PF - in Faerun, Sorcerers and Bards need components just like wizards do. They don't need the same level of study but you also can't really "become" one either.

Ah right so I was. I also always just picked that EM as my first level feat in 3.5 for games because my GM was a jerk who always had my components bag stolen. :smallannoyed:

Valwyn

2011-09-05, 09:48 AM

When people (I don't know if it's restricted by race/pantheon) die, they go to the Fugue Plane to be judged by Kelemvor. If you were faithful, you go to whatever afterlife you earned, if you're False, you're stuck in the City of Judgement living with other souls of your alignment (I think). If you're Faithless, you end up in the Wall.

Note that no one really knows what happens in the afterlife. According to Tyrants of the Nine Hells:

First of all, few inhabitants of a D&D world, even devil cultists, have access to accurate information about the afterlife. Most lawful evil characters envision the Nine Hells as a place much like the everyday world, except with higher, sharper mountains and a touch more brimstone in the air.

Not that it counts as cannon, but in Mask of the Betrayer, Kaelyn says that all faithless end up in the Wall (http://lparchive.org/Neverwinter-Nights-2-Mask-of-the-Betrayer/Update%2011/). If you want to believe her, go ahead, it might be true, but since MotB isn't cannon, you may want to believe that the game developers exagerated it a bit.

Big quote/conversation about the Wall:

Kaelyn: Once I was one of the priesthood of Kelemvor, God of the Dead. I walked the planes alleviating the suffering of others. But... To face those same spirits, to soothe them and comfort them, only to know that they are bound to a place of that torments them... it is not something I understand.

PC: What do you mean?

Kaelyn: In Kelemvor's faith, they teach that death is not something to be feared, that it is part of the natural cycle. But that is not true. If one does not worship the gods, then there is much to fear - and no prospects of peace in the afterlife.

PC: No prospects of peace? I don't understand.

Kaelyn: To comfort a child... knowing it is destined to scream eternally in an ever-living wall... A midwife of the Planes who has never heard of such a thing as gods, an entire plane of seawives who harvest the sea and seed the oceans to bring about life... to know that they are bound to become stones in the wall of a faithless citadel, crushed together by dogma and ritual that has never once be reflected upon. That never once has been examined for what it is.

PC: You're speaking of the Wall of the Faithless.

Kaelyn: Yes, the great Wall that encircles the City of Judgment. Its bricks are souls that never pledged fealty to any god - nor knew that they had to to achieve paradise in the afterlife.They are mortared there, crushed together to suffer by archaic law. No matter how good, or pure, or unselfish they were - it matters only if they followed the proper rituals to a deity, any deity.

PC: You value one's deeds and heart over their devotion, then.

Kaelyn: Religion is not ritual. It is intended to comfort, to strengthen, not to punish. Is lip service to a god... is that what is important? Or is it the acts and belief that matter?

Whatever you may think of the Wall, I think it's best not to discuss it. We all have our opinions on it, but it's a touchy subject for some and it might be best to stop talking about it before a flame war begins.

Psyren

2011-09-05, 12:50 PM

What's the Wall?

Not much hasn't been said about it at this point, but read here:

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Faithless

Whatever you may think of the Wall, I think it's best not to discuss it. We all have our opinions on it, but it's a touchy subject for some and it might be best to stop talking about it before a flame war begins.

I see nothing wrong with discussing it. Not only is it a fictional religion, it's also one specific to a particular D&D setting/cosmology. The Wall is an interesting topic simply because no other D&D setting has anything like it. Even stranger is that it's implied to be, if not as bad, nearly as bad as ending up in one of the Lower Planes, when most other settings treat the consequence for being undecided as similar to being Neutral.

Valwyn

2011-09-05, 03:03 PM

I see nothing wrong with discussing it. Not only is it a fictional religion, it's also one specific to a particular D&D setting/cosmology. The Wall is an interesting topic simply because no other D&D setting has anything like it. Even stranger is that it's implied to be, if not as bad, nearly as bad as ending up in one of the Lower Planes, when most other settings treat the consequence for being undecided as similar to being Neutral.

I don't really mind discussing it, as you said, it's fiction, but sometimes people bring their own beliefs (from real life) into the discussion and it gets ugly. Just saying.

Morty

2011-09-05, 03:05 PM

The Wall of the Faithless is controversial, but not more so than, say, Tome of Battle, edition wars, Miko back in the day or any other subject that spawns multi-page threads. People tend to get riled up about because, well, it is horribly unfair. I like the Forgotten Realms but there's no denying that.

herrhauptmann

2011-09-06, 12:19 AM

Did 3rd ed get rid of how Asmodeus was using teh souls of 'the faithless' to heal himself of his wound so he could take his anger and what not out on the rest of teh multiverse?
I think this might be the first I've heard of this particular plot point...
Care to elaborate (or list sources)?

Also bear in mind that on the FRCS, getting plastered into the Wall doesn't happen for 1d10 days after death. In that time a character is still allowed to choose a god.
While I'm not sure about the 1d10 days thing, I'm pretty sure that a soul/petitioner can't suddenly claim devotion to God X after death. Or even beg forgiveness if he was False.
It's like the extreme version of "There's no atheists in foxholes."

Atheism in the FR is typically more not thinking deities are worthy of their worship, and less absolutely not believing in them at all.
Roy for instance, if he lived in FR would have been blocked into the wall for months rather than learning a new trick from his grandpa.

Umm,
Punishment for the faithless, does that depend on their actions in life (perhaps how they acted upon their faithlessness), or just their alignment?

deuxhero

2011-09-06, 01:15 AM

Just their fatihlessness except in a brief period after Khel ascended.

Psyren

2011-09-06, 01:25 AM

People tend to get riled up about because, well, it is horribly unfair. I like the Forgotten Realms but there's no denying that.

This, precisely.

Now, I will note that for high-level personages (and there are a ton, in FR), the existence of the Wall is provable - Faithless cannot be raised, so if you're trying to bring back someone and you know they have no reason to refuse, it would be easy to deduce that something is holding them in the Fugue, particularly if you're aware that they had no patron at the time of death.

Also, other deities can intervene on your behalf should you be trapped on the Wall, without even being your patron first. This is true even if their intervention is solicited by powerful mortals, either by a Miracle spell (directly requesting intercession) or a Wish (requesting aid from the Weave itself.)

Finally, Kelemvor is explicitly described as not being secretive about the afterlife like his predecessors were - this is part of his campaign to increasing understanding and reduce fear of death. So his clergy would be expected to tell everybody about the Wall.

Safety Sword

2011-09-06, 01:37 AM

I think after X days (10 days? something like that), you get judged by Kelemvor, deity of the dead and sentenced to the wall if no-one has come to pick you up yet.

In in our wildest fantasies there is a delay due to administration requirements...

Alleran

2011-09-06, 01:45 AM

No doubt, in Faerun's far more restrictive cosmology, Ur-Priests would either not exist or be forced to choose the "dead god" option due to notables such as Moander and Myrkul floating around.
Ur-Priests are getting their power from a god or goddess. Said god or goddess just isn't telling them that they're getting their divine spells from them, because said Ur-Priest is doing what the god or goddess wants them to do.

Basically, in FR, rather than gods getting tricked by the Ur-Priest, the Ur-Priest is being tricked by the gods while thinking he's the one tricking them.

Feytalist

2011-09-06, 01:47 AM

I think this might be the first I've heard of this particular plot point...
Care to elaborate (or list sources)?

I'm pretty sure that was in 2nd Ed somewhere. Strangely I can't find any links at the moment.

I must say I appreciate the idea of the Wall. It necessitates a deeper characterisation on the part of players. If you're going to be Faithless, you better have a damn good reason to.The deities are, for better or worse, a large part of FR.

Safety Sword

2011-09-06, 01:50 AM

Ur-Priests are getting their power from a god or goddess. Said god or goddess just isn't telling them that they're getting their divine spells from them, because said Ur-Priest is doing what the god or goddess wants them to do.

Basically, in FR, rather than gods getting tricked by the Ur-Priest, the Ur-Priest is being tricked by the gods while thinking he's the one tricking them.

Shar most likely ;)

Feytalist

2011-09-06, 02:06 AM

In in our wildest fantasies there is a delay due to administration requirements...

Heh. Any difficulties are probably due to a horde of devils breaking in to come steal souls.

This has got me thinking... so it's possible to resurrect a faithless within 10 days?

Shar most likely ;)

Or possibly Tiamat. She's already tricking three other groups, why not a fourth?

Kefkafreak

2011-09-06, 02:08 AM

The thing is, according to Kaelyn, you go to the Wall even if you had never heard of the concept of a god, and had no way to know that such a thing existed.

Feytalist

2011-09-06, 02:09 AM

The thing is, according to Kaelyn, you go to the Wall even if you had never heard of the concept of a god, and had no way to know that such a thing existed.

As some people are so fond of saying; ignorance is no excuse.

Safety Sword

2011-09-06, 02:13 AM

Or possibly Tiamat. She's already tricking three other groups, why not a fourth?

Untheric pantheon... pfft.

Psyren

2011-09-06, 02:31 AM

This has got me thinking... so it's possible to resurrect a faithless within 10 days?

Yes. You can also rez a Faithless after that, but as I said before, this requires divine intervention (either by a deity's direct action, or via a Miracle/Wish.)

Coidzor

2011-09-06, 02:54 AM

Yes. You can also rez a Faithless after that, but as I said before, this requires divine intervention (either by a deity's direct action, or via a Miracle/Wish.)

Wow. Not only is your character tortured for all eternity, but regular old divine intervention doesn't even work to get them back into the game.

Huh. If only there were some way to make people likely to come back as sapient undead into faithless before they died, that'd solve a lotta problems.

Also, cut down on a lot of time to make it so that villains couldn't come back to bite your party in the butt.

And atheism does exist in FR, but it's extremely rare. It's less that "there are no gods" and more that they acknowledge the existence of powerful beings, but don't believe that makes them worthy of a "godhood" moniker or worship. Given that most in FR know all too well what happens to them upon death (to the Wall with you!), even if they don't know the exact specifics, it's obviously not a popular perspective.

It is rather funny that the correct perspective, that is to say, the one of the players themselves, is the one being punished and least popular amongst the characters of the world.

Did Ed Greenwood have a lot of trouble with metagaming, I wonder?

Hazzardevil

2011-09-06, 03:33 AM

Mostly what Morty said; there seems to be some level of divine trickery allowed though, such as one goddess (Auril? Umberlee?) granting spells in Ubtao's name while he sleeps.

No doubt, in Faerun's far more restrictive cosmology, Ur-Priests would either not exist or be forced to choose the "dead god" option due to notables such as Moander and Myrkul floating around.
Ur-Priests do officially exist in forgotten realms (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ur-priest), I found them on the wiki.

Alleran

2011-09-06, 03:44 AM

The thing is, according to Kaelyn, you go to the Wall even if you had never heard of the concept of a god, and had no way to know that such a thing existed.
Although the number of people in FR who don't have the concept of a god (and thus a patron) is vanishingly small. As in, virtually nonexistent. Even for those who might be more like Drizzt in their ways (Kelemvor isn't nasty about his judgements - he's quite fair).

Did Ed Greenwood have a lot of trouble with metagaming, I wonder?
Not as far as I know. According to his players, he has a much "darker" FR in his home campaign, and the gods are also a whole lot more distant. They communicate through signs and odd portents (well, they might be communicating...), and not often as outright avatars unless you're particularly important/special for some reason. Since if an avatar is killed, it can permanently weaken the deity (e.g. when one of Mystra's lesser-powered avatars was slain, she actually lost the strength embodied in the avatar until it had built back up again and returned to her through the Weave). So throwing avatars around isn't something that they're likely to do.

Kefkafreak

2011-09-06, 03:54 AM

Although the number of people in FR who don't have the concept of a god (and thus a patron) is vanishingly small. As in, virtually nonexistent. Even for those who might be more like Drizzt in their ways (Kelemvor isn't nasty about his judgements - he's quite fair).

She mostly meant people not in the material plane.

Coidzor

2011-09-06, 04:01 AM

Not as far as I know. According to his players, he has a much "darker" FR in his home campaign, and the gods are also a whole lot more distant. They communicate through signs and odd portents (well, they might be communicating...), and not often as outright avatars unless you're particularly important/special for some reason. Since if an avatar is killed, it can permanently weaken the deity (e.g. when one of Mystra's lesser-powered avatars was slain, she actually lost the strength embodied in the avatar until it had built back up again and returned to her through the Weave). So throwing avatars around isn't something that they're likely to do.

Considering the crap shoot that is the after life in the sold product, I'd have to imagine that was the original intent in the man.

Though the common as rabbits nature of clerics and their magic seems like it'd balance out the relative rarity of actually getting to see an avatar personally.

And doesn't really have much to do with the observation that viewing the gods as unworthy of worship as they actually are given player knowledge of them is the exact opposite of all of the pressures on the character anyway and connecting its frightful symmetry to the metagame.

hamishspence

2011-09-06, 04:06 AM

Alleran

2011-09-06, 04:15 AM

She mostly meant people not in the material plane.
Such as? The Wall only affects people in the crystal sphere encompassing Realmspace. If you're not from there, then it doesn't affect you (AFAIK).

Though the common as rabbits nature of clerics and their magic seems like it'd balance out the relative rarity of actually getting to see an avatar personally.
Though that in itself could also be thought of as just arcane magic of another stripe. The Imaskari are an example of the "gods are just super-powerful beings" viewpoint. Given what they were able to do with arcane magic, that they didn't see the gods as gods is kind of understandable.

And doesn't really have much to do with the observation that viewing the gods as unworthy of worship as they actually are given player knowledge of them is the exact opposite of all of the pressures on the character anyway and connecting its frightful symmetry to the metagame.
Personally, I think it's more that for 99% of people in Faerun, the gods exist in some form, and so an individual have a particular patron who is most suited to their viewpoint and outlook. Which does not preclude praying to other deities on the right occasion, just that one in particular will embody your own viewpoints. It's a little bit like the ancient Greeks - to them, the gods were an embodiment of natural forces and parts of nature, part and parcel of the world. Ares wasn't just the god of war, he was war (his very name is an adjective/noun used to describe "war" and "battle"), quite literally.

If your character is a generally-good mage devoted to the expansion of magic, then it would be natural to choose Mystra as a patron, for example. That doesn't mean you only pray to her or happen to be like some sort of fundamentalist, just that Mystra and her dogma/viewpoint is what you identify with. You don't have to be extremely devout about it.

Renegade Paladin

2011-09-06, 04:16 AM

Shar most likely ;)
Actually most likely Cyric, and it's literally his job, and he enjoys it. :smalltongue:

Alleran

2011-09-06, 04:18 AM

Actually most likely Cyric, and it's literally his job, and he enjoys it. :smalltongue:
It's important to enjoy your work. :smallwink:

hamishspence

2011-09-06, 04:19 AM

Personally, I think it's more that for 99% of people in Faerun, the gods exist in some form, and so an individual have a particular patron who is most suited to their viewpoint and outlook. Which does not preclude praying to other deities on the right occasion, just that one in particular will embody your own viewpoints. It's a little bit like the ancient Greeks - to them, the gods were an embodiment of natural forces and parts of nature, part and parcel of the world. Ares wasn't just the god of war, he was war (his very name is an adjective/noun used to describe "war" and "battle"), quite literally.

If your character is a generally-good mage devoted to the expansion of magic, then it would be natural to choose Mystra as a patron, for example. That doesn't mean you only pray to her or happen to be like some sort of fundamentalist, just that Mystra and her dogma/viewpoint is what you identify with. You don't have to be extremely devout about it.

Indeed. I believe it's mentioned in Power of Faerun that the vast majority of people do in fact pray to multiple deities besides their patron- even if it's often a "please don't do nasty things to me today" prayer.

Greymane

2011-09-06, 04:28 AM

Indeed. I believe it's mentioned in Power of Faerun that the vast majority of people do in fact pray to multiple deities besides their patron- even if it's often a "please don't do nasty things to me today" prayer.

I had a player once who chose to use a goblin thrill-seeker. He tattooed Beshaba's symbol on his forehead and prayed about 50 times a day to her to not let him get mangled horribly. His patron was Maglubiyet, naturally.

Coidzor

2011-09-06, 04:28 AM

Such as? The Wall only affects people in the crystal sphere encompassing Realmspace. If you're not from there, then it doesn't affect you (AFAIK).

It doesn't effect you if you're from out of town but you die there?

Though that in itself could also be thought of as just arcane magic of another stripe. The Imaskari are an example of the "gods are just super-powerful beings" viewpoint. Given what they were able to do with arcane magic, that they didn't see the gods as gods is kind of understandable.

Part of which doesn't really make sense from the way knowledge of magic is portrayed, generally, as the differing power sources alone would be a very clear tip-off, even if one didn't accept that the gods were anything but powerful beings capable of granting their power to others.

And, well, considering what we know of them from their portrayal, especially during and after the Time of Troubles and any scene with Lord Ao... Those Imsarkians would be right.

But, in FR, being right is the wrong choice, because you get punished for it if you can't avoid dying forever. Which is amusing in and of itself.

Alleran

2011-09-06, 04:57 AM

It doesn't effect you if you're from out of town but you die there?
Not as far as I know. It's only people born in the crystal sphere of Toril (or who are from outside but come to worship a Torilian god, presumably). But again, that's as far as I know. I could well be wrong.

Part of which doesn't really make sense from the way knowledge of magic is portrayed, generally, as the differing power sources alone would be a very clear tip-off, even if one didn't accept that the gods were anything but powerful beings capable of granting their power to others.
A wizard casts Light and creates some light.

A cleric casts Light and creates some light.

I can see how common people might confuse the two, or even see one as no greater than the other, given a certain perspective. Most people in FR just happen to have a god as a patron and probably don't think about it a whole lot. Merchants are merchants, and worship Waukeen, and that's really it, to them. They don't stop to ask the questions that players might ask, because they, as people, don't have any reason to.

And, well, considering what we know of them from their portrayal, especially during and after the Time of Troubles and any scene with Lord Ao... Those Imsarkians would be right.
Yes, Ao is indeed an unmigitated ass, though he takes orders from something much greater than he is. And keeps the "Balance" and the Realms "Secure" in some fashion.

Even Elminster tried chewing him out for what he was doing at one point, and as a result was tossed into the middle of a magical brawl that actually had him sweating a little bit. And when he got back to Ao, the overgod had already left. After drinking all the wine Elminster had stored (What do you mean, it's not heinous? (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WhatDoYouMeanItsNotHeinous)). And threatening to make him the god of magic as punishment.

Psyren

2011-09-06, 01:45 PM

Ur-Priests do officially exist in forgotten realms (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ur-priest), I found them on the wiki.

Both citations for that article came from Complete Divine, which is not a FR-specific source. There is quite simply nothing to indicate that Ur-Priest's peculiar brand of divine power even works in a setting like Faerun, or at least not that it works without the "dead god" adaptation.

In Manual of the Planes, it describes the fate of souls in the Realms slightly differently- those souls with no patron deity "wander the fugue plane" until snapped up by devilish or demonic forces, or until some deity chooses to intercede for them.

Only those who "actively opposed the worship of the gods" are bound into the Wall.

They wander for 10 days - after that time, they're mortared into the Wall and are safe from nether forces. No one inhabits the City long-term save the False.

herrhauptmann

2011-09-06, 03:52 PM

In Manual of the Planes, it describes the fate of souls in the Realms slightly differently- those souls with no patron deity "wander the fugue plane" until snapped up by devilish or demonic forces, or until some deity chooses to intercede for them.

Only those who "actively opposed the worship of the gods" are bound into the Wall.

Faithless:
People who don't have a deity, or who claim a deity but don't do anything to worship him/her. No offerings, no going to services, no deeds.
False:
People who claim a deity and actively seek to subvert the faithful. Heretics in other words.
Faithful:
People who worship a god and get admitted into that gods domain after death. However, while some gods grant an afterlife that is 'heaven,' others like to torture their faithful after death. So compare the viking valhalla to what Lolth does to her followers.

The faithless go to the wall, the false go to the city for eternal torture.