ToB "Sacred Fist" [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Loki Eremes

2011-09-05, 04:24 AM

Hi there playgrounders.

For the first time in my life i turned my attention to Tome of Battle.
This was a Handbook i always reused to play for a lot of reasons. But in the past few weeks one of my friends saturated my mind with it and told me he wanted to DMaster a mini campaing based on it. So i fetched it and started reading, only to reach a conclusion: I dont know where i am standing.

Maneuvers, Stances...all thats new for me.
My idea was to make a "Sacred Fist" charcter. I played a Monk/wizard PC, and made a Monk/Cleric/Sacred fist progression about 3 years ago.

I want to take that character and adapt it using ToB classes and prestiges.
You will get an idea what im looking to obtain as a final result if you know about this guy:

http://www.fightersgeneration.com/np/fate/kirei-fate.pngKotomine Kirei, from Fate Stay/Night.

There ya go a video for the ones that havent played the novel: (not the best tough)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOUOJa1VWJ8

So what do i want?
I want you to enlighten me and tell me which classes (or progression) from ToB will be perfect for him
[any other 3.5 sourcebooks avalible xD]

If i had more time than a few days i know i could bring him to life by myself, but in a short period of time i really do need you people. Please, help me in this quest for wisdom!

NecroRick

2011-09-05, 04:40 AM

I watched the video... so you want to be good at blocking swords with your face and spleen? Well, Monk is perfect for that.

--- Seriously though:

Actually, and it pains me to say this, Unarmed Swordsage is probably better for this.

Normally I wouldn't recommend ToB for pretty much the same reasons that I wouldn't recommend Syphilis or a career in Accounting...

... but your DM literally asked for it ... so go wild. There's a ToB handbook out there. Load up on cool stances and manoeuvres, try to keep your refresh mechanism in mind...

...and weep as you get blenderised by all the warblades and your damage falls off the crusaders that your DM will throw at you.

Togath

2011-09-05, 04:40 AM

Unarmed swordsage, focusing on shadow hand(1st priority), diamond mind(2nd priority), and some of the throws from setting sun(3rd priority), also one tip, don’t worry too much about which weapon type your using with your strikes, it doesn't actually matter unless otherwise stated in an abilities(or feats) description.
For feats, I’m not quite sure, I always have trouble picking them out, though improved initiative and improved toughness are usually fairly good feat choices, and possibly skill focus: concentration, if you end up going for diamond mind maneuvers(insightful strike and greater insightful strike have damage based on a concentration check, equal to your check + your str[or other melee damage modifiers] for insightful strike, and damage equal to twice a concentration check + your melee damage modifiers, if I am remembering them correctly)

Edit; also if you go unarmed swordsage, pick up snapkick(from the feat section of ToB) as soon as possible, as it effectivly gives you the monk's flurry of blows(and an unarmed swordsage has most of the other monk abilities).

NNescio

2011-09-05, 05:02 AM

I recommend PrCing into Jade Phoenix Mage, since Kotohime is supposed to be a Magus as well (plus Theurging into Cleric, but that's nearly impossible to fit in). The PrC also has some death-defying tricks, which also fits with the character's flavour.

Arcane Swordsage... might possibly work, but that's hard to fly under most DMs.

Basically, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=213845) you want a Kung-fu Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204497) right?

Kaeso

2011-09-05, 05:15 AM

ToB sacred fist?
Yeah, let's give the guy with the monk unarmed strike progression and cleric spell list even more goodies :smallsigh:. There's a reason why people call the RKV the Ruby Knight Windicator.
Not really speaking from experience, but the sacred fist should be strong enough by itself, though debatably you're better off giving your cleric Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed Strike (or just a monks belt, like one of my current characters is using).

Normally I wouldn't recommend ToB for pretty much the same reasons that I wouldn't recommend Syphilis or a career in Accounting...

:smallconfused: What's wrong with Accountancy? It's pays pretty good, so most people would kill for a job like that.

I recommend PrCing into Jade Phoenix Mage, since Kotohime is supposed to be a Magus as well (plus Theurging into Cleric, but that's nearly impossible to fit in).

Human Cleric 3/Wiz3/MT10 or FS /Sorc 4/MT 10 with improved unarmed strike or superior unarmed strike should do the trick, though if we are to believe popular opinion on the playground it makes you weaker than either a wizard or a cleric (though can't that be helped with the feat practised spellcaster?:smallconfused:), and of course a 2hour preparation per day means you're holding up the party for longer than even the other casters (unless you go for a spontaneous theurge, which is weaker but pretty cool).

Thespianus

2011-09-05, 05:54 AM

So what do i want?
I want you to enlighten me and tell me which classes (or progression) from ToB will be perfect for him
[any other 3.5 sourcebooks avalible xD]
The PrC "Sacred Fist" will kind of hurt you, since you won't be able to keep adding to your Maneuvers/Stances known through that class.

If you're absolutely set on being a Divine caster, the only PrC available for you is the Ruby Knight Vindicator (as has been said before) but it won't boost your unarmed attack damage.

So a really good "Sacred Fist" PrC for Tome of Battle classes doesn't exist. If you want to go with Arcane Magic, the Jade Phoenix Mage might be better, as you can get Greater Mighty Wallop through Arcane Spells and boost your unarmed damage that way.

the Feat "Snap Kick" is a given, and also "Superior Unarmed Strike", both from ToB.

Feytalist

2011-09-05, 05:59 AM

Go Jade Phoenix, but throw out arcane casting and throw in divine casting? Or alternatively go Sacred Fist but throw out casting and throw in maneuvres. Something like that. If that will even work.

Lateral

2011-09-05, 09:05 AM

Well, you could go in for a normal RKV, and take Superior Unarmed Strike so that your unarmed strike progresses with character level. It won't be as powerful as an unarmed swordsage's unarmed strike, but it'll still be a perfectly reasonable 2d6 by 20th level.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-05, 11:56 AM

...and weep as you get blenderised by all the warblades and your damage falls off the crusaders that your DM will throw at you.

Never used the Mountain Hammer line on a swordsage, have you? Or Setting Sun for battlefield control (make your enemies move somewhere else, deny them full attacks, etc). Or Shadow Hand for utility out of combat (the teleport maneuvers and the one that turns you invisible, which are also decent in combat) and the ability to avoid hits with Child of Shadows (seriously, negating 1/5 attacks is always good). Or Tiger Claw for damaging and hindering moves like Soaring Raptor Strike, Rabid Bear Strike, Hamstring Attack, and Swooping Dragon Strike.

Loki Eremes

2011-09-05, 02:49 PM

Sry, i expresed myself wrong.
I just said "Sacred Fist" to give you an idea of the FLAVOR of the PC, it has nothing to do with the PrC.

another thing: dont care that much about throwing things. just see that as an optional secondary weapon.

Urpriest

2011-09-05, 04:46 PM

If you want to blend Cleric and ToB classes, the class for that is Ruby Knight Vindicator. If you want some unarmed strike as well, the feat Superior Unarmed Strike (also from ToB, and previously mentioned) will give you a slightly lower progression than that of a typical monk no matter your classes.

McClintock

2011-09-05, 05:34 PM

Human Cleric 3/Wiz3/MT10 or FS /Sorc 4/MT 10 with improved unarmed strike or superior unarmed strike should do the trick, though if we are to believe popular opinion on the playground it makes you weaker than either a wizard or a cleric (though can't that be helped with the feat practised spellcaster?:smallconfused:), and of course a 2hour preparation per day means you're holding up the party for longer than even the other casters (unless you go for a spontaneous theurge, which is weaker but pretty cool).

Just played RHoD with a Sorc/FS/MT and i can tell you from first hand experience. It sucks. My friend was ALWAYS behind us in power progression. We had a warlock out cleric and mage-ing him, and he ultimately met his demise to the aspect, from a simple brrath weapon. Do not go Sorc/FS/MT.

Yuki Akuma

2011-09-05, 05:44 PM

Human Cleric 3/Wiz3/MT10 or FS /Sorc 4/MT 10 with improved unarmed strike or superior unarmed strike should do the trick, though if we are to believe popular opinion on the playground it makes you weaker than either a wizard or a cleric (though can't that be helped with the feat practised spellcaster?:smallconfused:)

No. Not at all. It's not your caster level that's the problem - the problem is that you're at least a spell level behind, and can just barely get 9th level spells on one side of your spellcasting at level 20 if you utterly ignore the other half after your MT levels.

Spontaneous casters are even worse, because they cannot possibly ever get 9th level spells. Especially if both sides are spontaneous!

MT sucks unless you're using Ur-Priest cheese, then it's broken.

tyckspoon

2011-09-05, 05:59 PM

I just said "Sacred Fist" to give you an idea of the FLAVOR of the PC, it has nothing to do with the PrC.[/SIZE]

I'm sure there's some other capabilities in the original source materials that I'm not familiar with, but from the gameplay videos you linked there's nothing that couldn't be done with a straight up Swordsage (Unarmed variant preferred, but you could just take Improved Unarmed Strike + Superior Unarmed Strike on the normal kind) and roleplay him with a strong religious background and themes.

Kaeso

2011-09-05, 07:32 PM

I'm sure there's some other capabilities in the original source materials that I'm not familiar with, but from the gameplay videos you linked there's nothing that couldn't be done with a straight up Swordsage (Unarmed variant preferred, but you could just take Improved Unarmed Strike + Superior Unarmed Strike on the normal kind) and roleplay him with a strong religious background and themes.

+1 to this.
Just because your character sheet doesn't have "priest" written on the blank behind "class" doesn't mean he can't be a priest :smallwink:
Do what tyckspoon said and pick a few manouvres you'd think would fit your characters concept. Call his strikes divine inspiration or whatever fits your roleplay and call it a day.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-05, 07:33 PM

+1 to this.
Just because your character sheet doesn't have "priest" written on the blank behind "class" doesn't mean he can't be a priest :smallwink:
Do what tyckspoon said and pick a few manouvres you'd think would fit your characters concept. Call his strikes divine inspiration or whatever fits your roleplay and call it a day.

Or play crusader with Superior Unarmed Strike.

Kaeso

2011-09-05, 07:36 PM

Or play crusader with Superior Unarmed Strike.

While that's theoretically possible, I don't think you'll see that a lot. It's kind of odd that the guy who's supposed to wear full plate and soak up all the damage fights unarmed, but that may just be me. :smallconfused:
I always thought that unarmed characters would want to be as lightly loaded as possible, wearing either light armor or none at all.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-05, 07:39 PM

While that's theoretically possible, I don't think you'll see that a lot. It's kind of odd that the guy who's supposed to wear full plate and soak up all the damage fights unarmed, but that may just be me. :smallconfused:
I always thought that unarmed characters would want to be as lightly loaded as possible, wearing either light armor or none at all.

Why would he wear full plate?

Kaeso

2011-09-05, 07:41 PM

Why would he wear full plate?

Because it's one of his main class features and helps him do what he was designed to do: resist enemy blows so the puny little wizard can cast his spells without wetting his girly skirt.

Yuki Akuma

2011-09-05, 08:05 PM

AC doesn't matter. A Crusader can wear no armour at all and still be effective at soaking up damage and keeping enemies occupied.

Seriously, AC does not matter. You cannot boost it fast enough to keep up with enemy attack bonuses, so why bother? Get a few magic items that cause miss chances and be done with it.

Besides, you have awesome HP, self-healing, and a delayed damage pool. Who cares if you get hit?

(Also, just so you know, the Wizard has some of the best defenses in the entire game.)

stainboy

2011-09-05, 08:16 PM

Hiro Protagonest

2011-09-05, 08:34 PM

Sounds like a single-class unarmed arcane swordsage.

You'd need a sympathetic DM who trusts you not to break the game though. (We don't know how Arcane Swordsage works but just about every interpretation can be broken in half by choosing the "right" spells.)

...

Just about every interpretation can be broken in half by choosing expeditious retreat, invisibility, and fly, then later greater invisibility and overland flight. You know, the basic touch and personal range spells from transmutation.

Yuki Akuma

2011-09-05, 08:46 PM

Never, ever play an 'arcane swordsage'. Infinite spells is not good.

There is a reason maneuvers are less powerful than spells.

Zale

2011-09-05, 10:42 PM

stainboy

2011-09-06, 05:41 PM

Hey, some people choose to sacrifice power for flavor.

Just about every interpretation can be broken in half by choosing expeditious retreat, invisibility, and fly, then later greater invisibility and overland flight. You know, the basic touch and personal range spells from transmutation.

I didn't say the right spells were hard to find. Although that set of abilities doesn't look too bad by itself. Flight and invisibility whenever you want is warlock stuff.