Thri-kreen Monk Query

[Gandolfi Feesh]

I've crafted a Thri Kreen Monk on Herolab to be a rockem-sockem robot.

However, it designates it's four claw attacks as being separate from it's unarmed strike damage. I figured I could take the unarmed damage and then improve it once more with the Improved Nat Attack feat, but no such luck.

However, another thought sprung to mind. Unarmed strike can be from anywhere on the body (forearm chops, kicking etc) right? Therefore should I get my full flurry of blows AND 4 claws + 1 bite as secondary attacks???

[Gandolfi Feesh]

Furthermore, I just bought an Amulet of Mighty Fists +4 and it did not incorporate this into the claw and bite attacks, only the unarmed strike.

Am I missing something here, or is this simply a design flaw??

[Urpriest]

You always get your claws+bite in addition to your unarmed strikes (provided you aren't making your unarmed strikes with your hands). That's how natural attacks work.

Edit: Also, what is this "it" you are referring to? A character sheet program?

[Cicciograna]

Edit: Also, what is this "it" you are referring to? A character sheet program?


I've crafted a Thri Kreen Monk on Herolab to be a rockem-sockem robot.

Nice program, tried the demo some time ago.

[Gandolfi Feesh]

You always get your claws+bite in addition to your unarmed strikes (provided you aren't making your unarmed strikes with your hands). That's how natural attacks work.

Edit: Also, what is this "it" you are referring to? A character sheet program?

I created it on Herolab, a character generator program.

[Cieyrin]

I've crafted a Thri Kreen Monk on Herolab to be a rockem-sockem robot.

However, it designates it's four claw attacks as being separate from it's unarmed strike damage. I figured I could take the unarmed damage and then improve it once more with the Improved Nat Attack feat, but no such luck.

However, another thought sprung to mind. Unarmed strike can be from anywhere on the body (forearm chops, kicking etc) right? Therefore should I get my full flurry of blows AND 4 claws + 1 bite as secondary attacks???

Why couldn't you Improved Natural Attack your unarmed strike? That's a valid target, though Superior Unarmed Strike may get you higher damage, if you're not after a Monk's Belt.

Urpriest answered the Natural Attack plus unarmed flurry already. As for the Amulet, that must be a glitch, as it should be affecting both, not just the unarmed strikes. Necklace of Natural Attacks this isn't.

[Urpriest]

I created it on Herolab, a character generator program.

Ah sorry, missed that detail in the OP. Anyway, all that we'll be able to tell you here is what the rules are, which might have nothing to do with Herolab's programming. I'd recommend you ask the people who made it, or look at its documentation if such exists.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why couldn't you Improved Natural Attack your unarmed strike? That's a valid target, though Superior Unarmed Strike may get you higher damage, if you're not after a Monk's Belt.

Real men take Improved Natural Attack.
Real roleplayers take Superior Unarmed Strike.
Loonies take Improved Banana Attack or Superior Nerf Sword strike.
Munchkins take all three, and don't mention Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike not stacking.

Cookie for whoever gets the reference.

And Improved Natural Attack does work for unarmed strikes.

[Yuki Akuma]

Improved Natural Attack only works for Monks unarmed strikes, just to be clear. It's a class feature - everyone else treats unarmed strikes as manufactured weapons, oddly.

Which is of course where the program is going wrong - the programmer didn't take into account the fact that Monks have a class feature that lets Improved Natural Attack and etc. apply to their unarmed strikes.

[Panartias]

Real men take Improved Natural Attack.
Real roleplayers take Superior Unarmed Strike.
Loonies take Improved Banana Attack or Superior Nerf Sword strike.
Munchkins take all three, and don't mention Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike not stacking.

Cookie for whoever gets the reference.

And Improved Natural Attack does work for unarmed strikes.
Munchkins take whatever gives the most plusses or anything by Garry Gygax would be valid answers too, me thinks.

And you are of course refering to the hillarious classification of rol(l)players - I keep it printed out somewhere...:smallbiggrin:

[Hiro Protagonest]

Munchkins take whatever gives the most plusses or anything by Garry Gygax would be valid answers too, me thinks.

And you are of course refering to the hillarious classification of rol(l)players - I keep it printed out somewhere...:smallbiggrin:

Your cookies!

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[Laura Eternata]

Real men take Improved Natural Attack.
Real roleplayers take Superior Unarmed Strike.
Loonies take Improved Banana Attack or Superior Nerf Sword strike.
Munchkins take all three, and don't mention Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike not stacking.

Cookie for whoever gets the reference.

Is it this? (http://www.uri.edu/personal/rmcd8250/realmen.htm) It doesn't have the "Loonies" or "Munchkins", but it's what the "Real Men" bit reminded me of.

EDIT: And swordsaged. Looks like I was wrong, too. :smallannoyed:

[noparlpf]

You should get your unarmed attacks (which gain more attacks as your BaB increases) and flurry with unarmed strikes. You also get natural attacks (like claws) as secondary attacks (and thus they all take a -5 penalty unless you take Multiattack and Improved Multiattack).
There's a feat from a Dragon Magazine (the number is escaping me right now) called Beast Strike. You add your claw or slam damage to your unarmed attacks, and you still get your natural attacks as secondary weapons.

[Panartias]

Your cookies!

http://www.pricedrightgift-baskets.com/images/Gourmet_Cookies=Cookie_Basket=SKU_sampler.jpg

Hmmmm! Thanks!:smallredface:

@Laura Eternata
It is this (http://dragon.facetieux.free.fr/jdr/Munchkin.htm)

[ericgrau]

You can stack on the natural attacks with unarmed strikes, but you can't use them in a flurry. I was considering a thri-keen monk once and I liked the speed & jumping but I couldn't get the attack bonus, class features and so on to work. Well, good luck. Maybe if you get your natural/unarmed attack damage up to high heaven it could work, by stacking monk's belt, superior unarmed strike, improved banana and skill focus (craft: basketweaving).

[Darrin]

Improved Natural Attack only works for Monks unarmed strikes, just to be clear. It's a class feature - everyone else treats unarmed strikes as manufactured weapons, oddly.


That's still a matter under debate. RAW is not clear on whether non-monk unarmed strikes are considered manufactured or natural by default. Skip Williams seems to think they are not natural in his Rules of the Game articles (see Part Two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a)), but Keld Denar disagrees (see his Natural Weapon mini-guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)). I was siding with Skip... but I'm starting to lean towards Keld's side, because his interpretation tends to favor playability and reduces rules headaches.



Which is of course where the program is going wrong - the programmer didn't take into account the fact that Monks have a class feature that lets Improved Natural Attack and etc. apply to their unarmed strikes.

On this issue at least there's very little controversy. Yes, monks can take Improved Natural Attack. Unless you're playing Pathfinder, in which case the Schwarzschild Radius of Stupidity starts to expand at a staggering rate.

Given the inconsistency at which even the game designers fail to grasp the complexities of unarmed strikes, it doesn't surprise me that a programmer would have some issues getting everything to add up correctly.

[Keld Denar]

Going with the fact that casting Magic Weapon (which only affects manufactured weapons) doesn't work on UASs unless the character is a Monk is mostly what leads me to believe that UASs are natural. If a 1st level Fighter took IUAS, he would need to recieve a Magic Fang spell, and only a Magic Fang spell would work. Thus, I'm of the opinion that an UAS is a natural weapon for all purposes EXCEPT for determining iteratives (UASs can make iteratives while normal natural weapons don't). That also makes sense since it's a part of your body, and thus "natural" in the same sense that a claw is and a sword isn't.

Programs such as Heroforge or Herolab often have issues with "monstrous" PCs, especially with PCs who utilize non-iterative attacks such as Totemists.

[Curmudgeon]

RAW is not clear on whether non-monk unarmed strikes are considered manufactured or natural by default. Skip Williams seems to think they are not natural in his Rules of the Game articles (see Part Two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070403a)), but Keld Denar disagrees (see his Natural Weapon mini-guide (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10994.0)).
Taking Skip Williams's opinion as a rule will often lead you into trouble. But the RAW are clear:

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike.

You can’t cast this spell on a natural weapon, such as an unarmed strike (instead, see magic fang).

Magic fang gives one natural weapon of the subject a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The spell can affect a slam attack, fist, bite, or other natural weapon. (The spell does not change an unarmed strike’s damage from nonlethal damage to lethal damage.)
A fanged ring grants its wearer the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and the Improved Natural Attack (unarmed strike) teat.

[Yuki Akuma]

But unarmed strikes receive iterative attacks from high BaB, meaning they're not natural weapons - because natural weapons don't get iterative attacks.

Basically unarmed strike is yet another place in D&D 3.5 that gets houseruled subconsciously without even realising it. (I'm not accusing anyone of 'doing it wrong', I'm accusing the rules of making no sense.)

[Keld Denar]

Attacking with a natural or manufactured weapon doesn't normally provoke AoOs, but attacking with your UAS without IUAS does. UASs are different. As I stated, they are natural weapons EXCEPT when they aren't. Yes, it is a little bass ackwards, but it is no matter which way you treat it.

The difference is, the rules don't explicitly state that an UAS is a manufactured weapon (except for monks, which are explicitly both), but they do explicitly state that an UAS is a natural weapon.

That said, claws and bites aren't "special monk weapons", so a Kreen Monk couldn't combine them with his Flurry of Blows routine. He could still combine them with a normal UAS full attack, but not for a Flurry.

[Curmudgeon]

But unarmed strikes receive iterative attacks from high BaB, meaning they're not natural weapons - because natural weapons don't get iterative attacks.
While it's true that most natural weapons don't get iterative attacks, unarmed strikes are a special case.

From page 13 of Rules Compendium:
IT’S REALLY AN EXCEPTION
One of the bits of game designer jargon that we’re fond of is the notion of “exception-based rule sets.” Here’s a basic definition: An exception-based rule set has simple, straightforward rules, but a whole bunch of cool exceptions that are under at least a degree of player control. In other words, the rules of the game change depending on who’s sitting at the table and what they’ve done so far in the game. Most creatures (monsters) do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. Characters (PCs) using unarmed strikes do.

[DMJeff]

I've crafted a Thri Kreen Monk on Herolab to be a rockem-sockem robot.

However, it designates it's four claw attacks as being separate from it's unarmed strike damage. I figured I could take the unarmed damage and then improve it once more with the Improved Nat Attack feat, but no such luck.

[QUOTE=Gandolfi Feesh;11786722]
However, another thought sprung to mind. Unarmed strike can be from anywhere on the body (forearm chops, kicking etc) right? Therefore should I get my full flurry of blows AND 4 claws + 1 bite as secondary attacks???

I'm surprised through all that no one responded to that. Essentially no natural attacks count as full round attack's depending on your source some creatures can use normal attack then a natural even if it is a primary it now count's as secondary. Off the top of my head, Lich comes to mine. And the monk's unarmed attack's count as naturalish attack's. I think it's just a bug in hero Lab.