Variant Gestalt Rules - workable?

[Partysan]

In a game I am running I might employ a special variant of the gestalt rules that once came to me (somehow a bit of 2nd ed. got mixed in, no idea how since I never played it) - if the game evolves in a way as to benefit from it. I'd like to humbly present the rules to see if I oversaw anything. They are as follows:

At a level yet to be determined, a character gains an additional class slot. This slot is empty, at 0 XP and yet to be filled.
Experience earned is distributed between the slots at the player's choice. Starting with 1000 XP for level 1, the player can gain class levels in the second slot just as he could with the first, with the following differences:

- The levels count as gestalted, meaning a player will only earn additional HP, skill points and/or save bonuses if the new level has a higher bonus than the level already present on the other side.

- A level can never be taken twice, so if there are (e.g.) Wizard levels on one side, the second side cannot have Wizard levels until it catches up with the first side's Wizard levels.

- The XP needed to level up in a slot is calculated by that slot's level alone, so a Wizard11//Fighter2 would need 2000XP to get to Wiz11//Ftr3 but 11000XP to get to Wiz12//Ftr2.

- Only the highest skill rank maximum of the different sides is in effect for both , but each side uses its own class skills.

- I am not yet sure whether the second side will earn level-based feats and/or ability points. I'd appreciate input on that.

Added possibilities: Apart from the obvious one of adding even more slots, possibly even just having a level-based slot progression (I won't do that, I'm just saying one could) it would also be possible to apply multipliers for the XP needed to level on the additional sides. Both would combine well for high-level high-powered games.

Speculation and intentions: This allows players from mid-level on to grab some diversity, bonus feats, added abilities etc. without screwing up their progression too much, while it still discourages all-can-do types because their progression will be slowed the more they invest in the secondary slot. Also, casters benefit less since they suffer more from a slower level progression while mundanes will embrace cheaper bonus feats and added abilities.

Thoughts?

[The Rabbler]

It seems like that would only make dipping classes much easier. For example: say you have a barbarian 10 and you unlocked a second gestalt tree. raking fighter 1 after 1,000 xp is always going to be preferable to taking fighter 1 after 10,000 xp.

Essentially, if you enjoy dip-heavy builds and a faster power scaling (at least for non-casters) then go for it.

[grarrrg]

It seems like that would only make dipping classes much easier. For example: say you have a barbarian 10 and you unlocked a second gestalt tree. raking fighter 1 after 1,000 xp is always going to be preferable to taking fighter 1 after 10,000 xp.

Essentially, if you enjoy dip-heavy builds and a faster power scaling (at least for non-casters) then go for it.

I agree it would make SMALL dips easier.
In your example of Barbarian 10 taking Fighter 1, all you gain is the feat in this case. Barb already has better/same HP/Bab/Skills/Saves/etc...
So yeah, a free feat for 1000xp is great! But the next free feat now costs 2000xp, and the one after that costs 7000xp. And this whole time the Feats are the ONLY thing your gaining.

Granted Barb dipping Fighter is a poor example. But you have to remember that your "higher" side is NOT leveling at this time. By the time you reach XX 10//YY 5 you could be at XX 11 instead. I can see "main side" melee classes getting the most use out of this system. With a few caster friendly options (Sorc X//Paladin 2 Divine Grace for cheap anyone?)

[137beth]

I agree it would make SMALL dips easier.
In your example of Barbarian 10 taking Fighter 1, all you gain is the feat in this case. Barb already has better/same HP/Bab/Skills/Saves/etc...
So yeah, a free feat for 1000xp is great! But the next free feat now costs 2000xp, and the one after that costs 7000xp. And this whole time the Feats are the ONLY thing your gaining.

Granted Barb dipping Fighter is a poor example. But you have to remember that your "higher" side is NOT leveling at this time. By the time you reach XX 10//YY 5 you could be at XX 11 instead. I can see "main side" melee classes getting the most use out of this system. With a few caster friendly options (Sorc X//Paladin 2 Divine Grace for cheap anyone?)

Yes...
That's a bunch of reasons why dipping/multi-classing isn't always ideal. But this just makes it cost less than multiclassing--IF you use this method for dipping, your total level (of class features only) will end up substantially higher. This system is unquestionably better than dipping via normal multi- classing.
On the other hand, this is still lower on the power scale than regular gestalt is. Still, I'd limit what classes had access to it (don't give this option to T1 classes).

[Kamai]

The first thought that came to mind is the possibility of "I'll be happy to spend 1,000 xp for prestige class features over lots more' The second thought is on the skills, where you change the skill list, but only for each side, yet following the gestalt rules for how many skill points you have. It's a pretty convoluted mess, and can be not nice on legitmate concepts, if you are jumping to a class that has lower or equal base skills/level. It also means you can't easily handwave experience, like a lot of people like to do.

[grarrrg]

On the other hand, this is still lower on the power scale than regular gestalt is. Still, I'd limit what classes had access to it (don't give this option to T1 classes).

(before we start, remember that a "/" means "same side" and a "//" means a Gestalt Split)

How about...
For the sake of argument, let's call this system "Sub-Gestalt".
Disclaimer: I just thought this up, so there are bound to be holes in it, and adjustments will need to be made before it is useable (if at all, especially with regards to PrC's)

Tier 1's cannot Sub-Gestalt until level 25 (needs Epic)
Tier 2's cannot Sub-Gestalt until level 20 (needs Epic)
Tier 3's cannot Sub-Gestalt until level 15
Tier 4's cannot Sub-Gestalt until level 10
Tier 5's cannot Sub-Gestalt until level 5
Tier 6's can Sub-Gestalt at level 1

How Sub-Gestalt works:
Upon reaching the S-G-able level, the character can spend their XP on either advancing their Main class, or on one of their Sub-Classes.
A Sub-Class can never be a higher level than the class above immediately above it.
Each Gestalt-Group of classes has a Tier level equal to the best Class it has taken in that Grouping. So a Fighter 15/Sorcerer 2 would still be considered a Tier 2, but a Fighter 15//Sorcerer 2 has a Main-Tier of 5, and a Sub-Tier of 2.
Mixing and matching within the same Gestalt-Grouping is usually a poor idea.
Example:
A level 6 Monk (Tier 5) can either take Monk 7, or branch off a Sub group (he can branch off a Sub-Group because he has attained level 5). He decides to spend 1000xp on a level of Warrior, to help build his Bab. He is now a Monk 6//Warrior 1. Because Warrior is a Tier 6, he can now level the Monk-Group, level the Warrior-Group, OR start a NEW Sub-Group based off Warrior. He decides that he needs more skill points, so takes a level of Rogue.
He is now a Monk 6//Warrior 1//Rogue 1. His next level can be in either the Monk-Group or the Warrior-Group, but NOT the Rogue group (set harpoons and tow-cables). He will not be able to add a second level to the Rogue-Group (hang on back there) until he takes another level of Warrior.
If he wanted to add yet another Gestalt-Sub-Group he would have to wait until at least Monk 10//Warrior 10//Rogue 10 (because Rogue is a Tier 4 and must wait until level 10).

Thoughts?

[Partysan]

The first thought that came to mind is the possibility of "I'll be happy to spend 1,000 xp for prestige class features over lots more' The second thought is on the skills, where you change the skill list, but only for each side, yet following the gestalt rules for how many skill points you have. It's a pretty convoluted mess, and can be not nice on legitmate concepts, if you are jumping to a class that has lower or equal base skills/level. It also means you can't easily handwave experience, like a lot of people like to do.

I guess that means I should add a clause for one-side PrC qualification? And it's true, I can't handwave experience like this, though this is a price I'm willing to pay.
About the "legitimate concepts": this system isn't intended to produce gestalt characters. Earning small class levels on the side will not change your main character concept and it isn't supposed to, it only enhances it.
Character builds often follow specific plans, if you play at a certain optimization level. These can be rather strict and often feat-starved and will result in missing a lot of nice small things in order to preserve the greater plan. These rules are intended to relieve that strictness and give small boons of diversity and additional, but not too powerful, features to a character.
Thus, the character concept of the main side should stay the same. But it can play around a little, gain another tactical feat for options, pick up some basic magic along the way or learn to fight a little more dirty, all that without screwing up the Spellsword/EldritchKnight/AbjurantChampion/SacredExorcist progression or taking away your access to Double Stance.

And does anyone have an opinion on whether the second side should provide class-based feats and/or ability points?

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

19//8 or 14//14 is less powered than my BG variant. The problems are of course in the tiers.

If you want to tally XP differently and micro it out for balance I have a radical variant I haven't posted similar to this and inspired by JaronK's