Level Adjustment makes no sense!!!!

[Babale]

Why exactly do Drow and Ogres have the same LA? Drow get a +2 bonus to Int, Cha, and Dex. They have a -2 penalty to Con. They get a few useless immunities. OK, not useless; just use impaired. And their stats make them good Rogues, Wizards, and Sorcerers. All of those are badly hurt by LA, with the Rogue a bit less than the others. Yes, Drow get Spell Resistance, but at what cost? And SR isn't that hard to overcome, Vaarsuvius's experiences not withstanding.

Ogres, on the other hand, get +10 Str, +4 Con, -4 Cha, -4 Int, and -2 Dex. This means they can start with 28 Strength and 22 Con, which makes them amazing Barbarians or Fighters. Neither of those is hurt by LA to anywhere near the same level as casters are hurt by it. At the same time, they get Large size, giving them reach and the ability to use Large weapons (!). Not to mention two free feats! An Ogre Fighter at level 5 is just as strong as a Human Fighter of the same level, if not more, whereas a 5th level Drow Wizard can't match a 5th level Human wizard. At any given point, the Human will be one spell level ahead.

And somehow, Hill and Stone Giants are both LA +4, where Stone Giants are clearly superior in every single way. How does this make sense?!


EDIT: Huh, this should have gone in 3.5. Opps!

[NecroRebel]

Ogres have racial hit dice that don't get replaced by class levels, so in theory, a minimum-level playable ogre and a drow of that same level are roughly equal in power. Similarly, stone giants have more racial hit dice than hill giants, so, again, a minimum-playable-level stone giant is supposed to be roughly equivalent to a hill giant with a few class levels.

Practically speaking, of course, it doesn't work that way; the drow would almost always be able to crush the ogre, for instance, since those extra class levels mean significantly more than the stat bonuses, but that's how it's supposed to work.

Generally, though, level adjustment in early official sources is basically just arbitrary and has no balance to it whatsoever. It was intended more as a "you can't actually play these races" than anything else. 3.5... Mistakes were made, really, and the designers really had no idea what sort of game they were making, which lead to there being basically no real balance for quite some time.

[Eldan]

You are forgetting something. Namely, racial hit dice.

The Drow is LA +2 and has only one hit die, which is replaced by it's first class level. So, a drow rogue 1 counts as a level 3 character. The Ogre, however, has also 4 racial hit dice. These count for effective character level, so that an ogre barbarian 1 counts as a level 7 (4 HD, 2 LA, 1 class level) character.

So, you should be comparing a Drow Rogue 5 to an ogre barbarian 1.

[SowZ]

Why exactly do Drow and Ogres have the same LA? Drow get a +2 bonus to Int, Cha, and Dex. They have a -2 penalty to Con. They get a few useless immunities. OK, not useless; just use impaired. And their stats make them good Rogues, Wizards, and Sorcerers. All of those are badly hurt by LA, with the Rogue a bit less than the others. Yes, Drow get Spell Resistance, but at what cost? And SR isn't that hard to overcome, Vaarsuvius's experiences not withstanding.

Ogres, on the other hand, get +10 Str, +4 Con, -4 Cha, -4 Int, and -2 Dex. This means they can start with 28 Strength and 22 Con, which makes them amazing Barbarians or Fighters. Neither of those is hurt by LA to anywhere near the same level as casters are hurt by it. At the same time, they get Large size, giving them reach and the ability to use Large weapons (!). Not to mention two free feats! An Ogre Fighter at level 5 is just as strong as a Human Fighter of the same level, if not more, whereas a 5th level Drow Wizard can't match a 5th level Human wizard. At any given point, the Human will be one spell level ahead.

And somehow, Hill and Stone Giants are both LA +4, where Stone Giants are clearly superior in every single way. How does this make sense?!


EDIT: Huh, this should have gone in 3.5. Opps!

Yep. Look at a simple example. Hobgoblin=+2 Dex, +2 Con, Darkvision, Bonus to Move Silently. +1 LA. Level 1 Fighter Hobgoblin is a level 2 character. Bugbear? +4 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha, Bonus to Move Silently, Darvision, +3 Natural AC. Also has 3d8 hit dice, (these are just like class levels in that you get bonus Stats, Saves, BAB, and Feats from them, you are 'taking levels in' the race,) so a level 1 Fighter Bugbear can be a level 5 character. Usually, LA races are only good for specific classes for that reason.

So a Bugbear? I would play one as a rogue, (for the level trade in I get the same BAB, I will have better saves, better HD, +3 AC, a move silently bonus, and a bonus to my most important combat skills by trading in a few less skills and a sneak attack damage die,) but you have to weigh what you get for what you lose with each class for each race. Usually? It isn't worth it.

[Babale]

Ah, right... I forgot about RHD.

Well, I'm about to run a campaign on these forums (here) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214283) and everyone is going to be playing monstrous races. I want to encourage players to choose high-LA and RHD races like Ogres... How can I do this without unbalancing the game? If I do it for everyone, would ignoring all LA and giving all players 1 or 2 free RHD to ignore be too unbalancing? Gnolls, for example, have 2 RHD, but are rather lackluster. Would taking away all benefits from RHD such as feats and skills, but allowing them to start with full class levels, really put them so far ahead of a human of the same class? Especially if all the characters have this?

If I do this and one player chooses a race that does not have RHD or LA, what can I give him to balance things out?

[SowZ]

Ah, right... I forgot about RHD.

Well, I'm about to run a campaign on these forums (here) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214283) and everyone is going to be playing monstrous races. I want to encourage players to choose high-LA and RHD races like Ogres... How can I do this without unbalancing the game? If I do it for everyone, would ignoring all LA and giving all players 1 or 2 free RHD to ignore be too unbalancing? Gnolls, for example, have 2 RHD, but are rather lackluster. Would taking away all benefits from RHD such as feats and skills, but allowing them to start with full class levels, really put them so far ahead of a human of the same class? Especially if all the characters have this?

If I do this and one player chooses a race that does not have RHD or LA, what can I give him to balance things out?

Try and make sure the combined total of everyones RHD and LA are within one or two of each other. If you do that, you shouldn't have to worry. Otherwise, yeah, the people who are behind need to have more class levels. Allowing RHD to trade in for class levels makes LA races with a low LA and high RHD powerful while making anyone who chooses a race with a mid-high LA a member of a much weaker race.

[Volthawk]

I would suggest monster classes. There are the official Savage Species-style ones (which take you to the normal ECL, LA and all, eventually making you be the same as a normal monster, ability-wise), and there are also the homebrew Improved Monster Classes, which can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192151)for many of them, and also around our homebrew forums for newer ones (the big central project got shut down due to problems with how to make a fair, equal quality control system). The big thing with these are that there is no LA (instead basing the class length on CR, meaning that people have made classes for creatures that would be otherwise unplayable due to LA -), less ability score boosts, and that it doesn't match the base creature's stats, with abilities altered or added to make it more fun and PC-suitable (so the monsters that don't have many interesting things get interesting stuff to do, and creatures with stuff problematic in PC hands have that stuff altered to be more appropriate). I'd recommend using the latter version, personally.

[Babale]

Those seem a bit... Well, not weak, but a bit too human. For example, the Ogre gains 3 Str and 3 Con. An Ogre, going by SS or MM rules, gains a total of 10 Str and 4 Con, and has massive Int and Cha penalties. But those make him an Ogre, rather than just a strong human.

[Sucrose]

I'd advise against dropping all LA for everyone. That just encourages ghost mineral warrior half-dragons, and penalizes those that don't template-stack. I'd suggest ignoring an equal amount of LA for everyone, and an equal amount of RHD for everyone, or an equal amount of the combination of both (essentially, what has been mentioned above). That'll keep things on a somewhat more even keel. If someone opts not to go with something that has LA or RHD, encourage them to pick up a template or two.

[DiBastet]

I would suggest pathfinder. You can use pathfinder monsters as a character level equal to their CR. So CR 5 troll = CR 5 character, ECL 5. So in a party of 6th level guys you just play a Troll with Whatever 1.

It would be naive to apply this to every monster in 3.5 without first converting them to pathfinder's approximate values by cr table; and even with official pathfinder monsters, some aren't perfect. But it's a lot better than the arbitrary LA.

[Babale]

I think I'll do this:

Party starts at level 5. Any character can ignore up to 4 RHD, but they do not get any of the benefits of the levels they ignored. Characters who do not use all their free RHD get a +1 bonus to any stat. In addition, characters can ignore up to 2 LA. Whatever LA and RHD is left must be taken normally. Characters who use less RHD than they are allowed are not given any boosts, since RHD normally doesn't give you much, and those characters ignoring RHD are missing out on the HP, Feats, and Skills normally given by RHD. Characters who use less than the allowed LA are given an extra feat for each LA not used.

So a character could start play as a fifth level Ogre Fighter, which admittedly is much better than a fifth level Human Fighter; however, a fifth level Human Fighter would have an additional 2 bonus feats and +4 to any stat he chooses.

I think that's (somewhat) balanced? I doubt any character would actually have all 4 bonus stats and both bonus feats, since this is a monstrous campaign and everyone is going to be playing some sort of monster. Maybe an Orc would get the full bonuses, but this isn't a pure hack-n-slash game, so that should be OK...


EDIT: The main thing is, I hesitate to do anything which will weaken the base race or make it feel less different, since the whole point of the campaign is that the characters are not standard, and don't fit into society.

[Lord.Sorasen]

I think I'll do this:

Party starts at level 5. Any character can ignore up to 4 RHD, but they do not get any of the benefits of the levels they ignored. Characters who do not use all their free RHD get a +1 bonus to any stat. In addition, characters can ignore up to 2 LA. Whatever LA and RHD is left must be taken normally. Characters who use less RHD than they are allowed are not given any boosts, since RHD normally doesn't give you much, and those characters ignoring RHD are missing out on the HP, Feats, and Skills normally given by RHD. Characters who use less than the allowed LA are given an extra feat for each LA not used.

So a character could start play as a fifth level Ogre Fighter, which admittedly is much better than a fifth level Human Fighter; however, a fifth level Human Fighter would have an additional 2 bonus feats and +4 to any stat he chooses.

I think that's (somewhat) balanced? I doubt any character would actually have all 4 bonus stats and both bonus feats, since this is a monstrous campaign and everyone is going to be playing some sort of monster. Maybe an Orc would get the full bonuses, but this isn't a pure hack-n-slash game, so that should be OK...


EDIT: The main thing is, I hesitate to do anything which will weaken the base race or make it feel less different, since the whole point of the campaign is that the characters are not standard, and don't fit into society.

I'm going to throw this out there: you're doing an all Monster campaign, yes? If that's the case than perhaps you needn't worry about balancing the monsters with traditional races at all. I hear high LA/RHD monsters tend to get obliterated by proper ECL encounters. I also hear that WotC intended a single class level to be worth a single CR. So, this might be terrible, but why not just use a monster's CR as their ECL and work from there? I am aware that this could cause some major issues if someone tries to take advantage of it, but if the group agrees not to and stays away from templates, you should (probably) be fine.

Do you know what things your group will want to play as?

[Babale]

Still recruiting, but we have a (possibly) Orcish variant Fighter (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140278), and a Force Golem (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8983373&postcount=1020) Paladin. I changed the Force Golem to a +2 LA rather than make the player take all 4 levels in the class, so that's around the power level I'll be working with.

[Provengreil]

Why exactly do Drow and Ogres have the same LA? Drow get a +2 bonus to Int, Cha, and Dex. They have a -2 penalty to Con. They get a few useless immunities. OK, not useless; just use impaired. And their stats make them good Rogues, Wizards, and Sorcerers. All of those are badly hurt by LA, with the Rogue a bit less than the others. Yes, Drow get Spell Resistance, but at what cost? And SR isn't that hard to overcome, Vaarsuvius's experiences not withstanding.

Ogres, on the other hand, get +10 Str, +4 Con, -4 Cha, -4 Int, and -2 Dex. This means they can start with 28 Strength and 22 Con, which makes them amazing Barbarians or Fighters. Neither of those is hurt by LA to anywhere near the same level as casters are hurt by it. At the same time, they get Large size, giving them reach and the ability to use Large weapons (!). Not to mention two free feats! An Ogre Fighter at level 5 is just as strong as a Human Fighter of the same level, if not more, whereas a 5th level Drow Wizard can't match a 5th level Human wizard. At any given point, the Human will be one spell level ahead.

And somehow, Hill and Stone Giants are both LA +4, where Stone Giants are clearly superior in every single way. How does this make sense?!


EDIT: Huh, this should have gone in 3.5. Opps!

did you mean ECL 5 instead of level 5? because if it's ECL 5 you're right, but at level 5 the drow wizard's got +2 INT on the human, and the ogre has his STR and con on the human. we're assuming identical builds aside from race and the human feat, so on an even level basis I'd say the monsters win both matchups.

[Tyndmyr]

Ah, right... I forgot about RHD.

Well, I'm about to run a campaign on these forums (here) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214283) and everyone is going to be playing monstrous races. I want to encourage players to choose high-LA and RHD races like Ogres... How can I do this without unbalancing the game? If I do it for everyone, would ignoring all LA and giving all players 1 or 2 free RHD to ignore be too unbalancing? Gnolls, for example, have 2 RHD, but are rather lackluster. Would taking away all benefits from RHD such as feats and skills, but allowing them to start with full class levels, really put them so far ahead of a human of the same class? Especially if all the characters have this?

If I do this and one player chooses a race that does not have RHD or LA, what can I give him to balance things out?

Savage Species progressions tend to be better in general.

Allowing less RHD and/or being generous with LA reductions/allowing buyoff is also of help.

[Zherog]

I'll have to dig around to find the quote (and the original source is long-gone, as it was posted in a thread on the WotC forums that has since been purged) but one of the designers who came up with the concept (Rich Redman I believe) said publicly that he was instructed to intentionally make LA bad.

As for house rules, I once played in a game with a house rule that LA was cut in half - round down, but minimum of 1 for templates. Overall it wasn't a bad "quick" method of fixing LA.

edit: found the quote:


The design guidance that I had was to make ECLs slightly worse than playing a standard race character.