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View Full Version : [3.X] What is an appropriate level for this spell?



Yitzi
2011-09-05, 07:47 PM
I won't even try to hide where the idea comes from, but it's a good idea and worth being able to incorporate.

Feldegast's Fireball Trick
Evocation
Wizard/Sorcerer ?, Bard ?
Components: V
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: 0'; see text
Effect: 1 small fireball/level; see text
Duration: Concentration+1 round, up to 1 round/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

Upon casting this spell, a ball of fire appears in your hand. Each following round that you concentrate on the spell, another ball appears. You can hold up to one ball in each hand, but to hold more than that, you must juggle them (Sleight of Hand DC 5+2Xnumber of balls, made once per round.) If you fail the check, 1d3 balls escape your control and land 1d2X5 feet away from you in a random direction, doing 2d6 damage each to a random target in that square and possibly setting things alight.

On the round you stop concentrating on the spell, no more balls of fire appear, but you may throw the balls you are currently juggling at targets of your choosing within 100'. You may throw a number of balls equal to half your most recent Sleight of Hand check result (minimum 2) at chosen targets; all others escape your control with the effects described above. You may not target a single target with more than one ball.

If you choose to juggle the balls, you may make a bluff check (opposed by the spellcraft check of any observers) to pretend that this is simply a feat of legerdemain and not an actual magic spell. (The verbal component of the spell is mundane enough not to interfere with this impression.)

If this spell is used to emulate the Perform skill with Sleight of Hand, you use the lowest Sleight of Hand roll associated with the spell for the Perform check equivalence, but get a +10 bonus for that purpose.


So, what level do you think it should be for wizards/sorcerers, and what level for bards?

jiriku
2011-09-05, 08:02 PM
This spell really seems like it needs a somatic component, given the juggling theme and the "look what just popped out of my sleeve!" flavor of the spell.

I'd peg it at level 2 for sorcerers and wizards. Its damage (2d6 per round) is similar to flaming sphere, with the lack of a save being offset by the delayed damage and element of uncertainty. For bards I'd call it a level 1 spell - its effectiveness is heavily limited by your Sleight of Hand skill check, which is hard to cheese out at level 2. At higher levels, better spells are available and this spell isn't going to upset the apple cart by any means.

Uncontrolled balls land in squares, but controlled balls are directed at targets. I assume that an uncontrolled ball affects all targets in its square?

Yitzi
2011-09-06, 10:09 AM
This spell really seems like it needs a somatic component, given the juggling theme and the "look what just popped out of my sleeve!" flavor of the spell.

I'd peg it at level 2 for sorcerers and wizards. Its damage (2d6 per round) is similar to flaming sphere, with the lack of a save being offset by the delayed damage and element of uncertainty. For bards I'd call it a level 1 spell - its effectiveness is heavily limited by your Sleight of Hand skill check, which is hard to cheese out at level 2. At higher levels, better spells are available and this spell isn't going to upset the apple cart by any means.

Uncontrolled balls land in squares, but controlled balls are directed at targets. I assume that an uncontrolled ball affects all targets in its square?

That gets a bit silly, though, so I'm changing it to only affect one target.

And yes, it is a somewhat weak spell...looking at the source material again, a stronger version probably would fit better, I'll post that in the next post.

Yitzi
2011-09-06, 10:28 AM
Feldegast's Fireball Trick, Improved
Evocation
Wizard/Sorcerer ?, Bard ?
Components: V,S
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: 0'; see text
Effect: 1 small fireball/level; see text
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level, and concentration, up to 1 round/level (minimum 5 rounds), and instantaneous (see text)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

Upon casting this spell, you pull 1d8+2 brightly colored balls out of thin air. Each following round that you concentrate on the spell, you may pull another 1d8+2 balls. In order to keep control of the balls, you must juggle them (Sleight of Hand check; the maximum number of balls is 2X(check result-5).)

While juggling, all watching individuals are fascinated (as the bardic music ability, with save DC equal to your Sleight of Hand check result). You may attempt to interrupt combat with this spell (thereby allowing enemies to be Fascinated) with a Bluff check (opposed by the Sense Motive checks of watching enemies.) You may juggle these balls for up to 1 round/level.

You may make a bluff check, opposed by the spellcraft check of all watching enemies, to pretend that this is a feat of legerdemain rather than a magic spell.

At any point, you may move to the second phase of the spell. In this phase, the balls begin to glow brighter and brighter, until at the end of 5 rounds they are balls of fire. You may continue juggling them in this state for as long as you concentrate, up to 1 round/level for the second phase. Any enemies who recognize the effect as a magic spell realize the danger and are no longer fascinated.

At any point after the balls have turned to fire, you may, as a full-round action, throw them all at targets of your choosing within 100' (requiring a touch attack for each target); each ball does 1d6+1/caster level damage, and no two balls may target the same target.

If this spell is used to emulate the Perform skill with Sleight of Hand, you use the lowest Sleight of Hand roll associated with the spell, but get a +10 bonus for the purpose of the performance.

Special: The concentration for this spell is required for the Sleight of Hand skill as well as the spell, and the concentration requirement therefore cannot be removed via most magical effects.


So, again, what level do you think this one should be for wizards/sorcerers, and what level for bards? (Its purpose, of course, is recovering from a bad situation and then clearing out large numbers of mooks.)

Tyndmyr
2011-09-06, 10:34 AM
How does this work with more hands?

Hell, how does this work with Mage Hand. Yes, I'm aware they both require concentration. Feh, Sonorous Hum.

Behold, you now have become a permanent fountain of fireballs.

jiriku
2011-09-06, 11:58 AM
2nd version of the spell doesn't list a consequence for failing to control the balls.

So, depending on check results, a 10th-level caster could deal 1d6+10 damage to anywhere between 3 and 100 targets within 100 ft. This is an all-around strange spell. I'd probably peg this one at 4th level for both sorcerer/wizard and bard. It gets upranked for bard because high-level damaging spells aren't a normal part of the bard's repertoire. The extra versatility of a strong damaging spell needs to come at the cost of a slightly higher spell level.

Yitzi
2011-09-06, 12:29 PM
How does this work with more hands?

You're juggling anyway, so it doesn't matter.


Behold, you now have become a permanent fountain of fireballs.

Not really; you can only still get 1d6+2 per round, and there's a maximum of 1 round/level. It's a lot, but not infinite.


2nd version of the spell doesn't list a consequence for failing to control the balls.

Because I decided to make it a single check that determines how many you can get; you know the result, so you just won't produce more than you can handle.


So, depending on check results, a 10th-level caster could deal 1d6+10 damage to anywhere between 3 and 100 targets within 100 ft.

Usually more, as someone with no Sleight of Hand skill probably won't bother with the spell.


This is an all-around strange spell. I'd probably peg this one at 4th level for both sorcerer/wizard and bard. It gets upranked for bard because high-level damaging spells aren't a normal part of the bard's repertoire. The extra versatility of a strong damaging spell needs to come at the cost of a slightly higher spell level.

Makes sense; you'll get it at around level 10 whether you're a bard or an arcane trickster.

Tyndmyr
2011-09-06, 12:33 PM
You're juggling anyway, so it doesn't matter.[quote]

Why would I need to juggle three balls when I have four hands?

[quote]Not really; you can only still get 1d6+2 per round, and there's a maximum of 1 round/level. It's a lot, but not infinite.

So? If it's a static buff, I just fail the check and watch things burn randomly around me(but not actually on me), until I run out of balls. So, basically free random damage occurring around me in every fight.


Usually more, as someone with no Sleight of Hand skill probably won't bother with the spell.

While my example wouldn't require SoH at all, that would seem to be normal.

4th does seem about right...

Yitzi
2011-09-07, 08:21 AM
Why would I need to juggle three balls when I have four hands?

In the second form, the juggling is part of what turns them from brightly colored balls into fireballs.


So? If it's a static buff, I just fail the check and watch things burn randomly around me(but not actually on me), until I run out of balls. So, basically free random damage occurring around me in every fight.

It requires concentration, and as you said it's random (meaning as likely to affect allies as enemies). Not such a good use of your actions.

Also, in the second form, they don't turn to fire until after they've stopped appearing, so you can't use that approach anyway.

Tyndmyr
2011-09-07, 11:04 AM
In the second form, the juggling is part of what turns them from brightly colored balls into fireballs.

Was looking at the original.


It requires concentration, and as you said it's random (meaning as likely to affect allies as enemies). Not such a good use of your actions.

Also, in the second form, they don't turn to fire until after they've stopped appearing, so you can't use that approach anyway.

Sonorous Hum concentrates for you. So, a second level spell from a common ource(SpC) entirely negates all real downsides with this.

So, with the second form, you can still cast it pre-battle, and have an exceptionally good nuke at your disposal. No damage cap, decent rage(though non standard for no particularly good reason), offers no save...and apparently does NOT require a touch attack to throw a ball of fire at someone, and it even has damage equivalent to a d8.

I don't like it. I'd flat out just ban it from my games instead of assigning a level.

jiriku
2011-09-07, 12:23 PM
While I'm not quite as worried about it as Tyndmyr, the reliance on concentration and skill checks to limit the spell, rather than caster level, saves, or attack rolls, makes it open to exploitation. I can think of at least three ways the concentration requirement could be bypassed, and by RAW, skill-enhancing equipment is very inexpensive. I doubt you intend to abuse the spell, but I think it's one of those spells that could produce jaw-dropping results if TO was applied to it.

As a potential bandage, consider a hard cap on the number of balls that can be conjured, based on caster level.

Phosphate
2011-09-07, 12:36 PM
I don't understand why you put in the restriction that you may only hit each target with a single ball of fire. It hurts the usefulness a lot, and it's not really realistic as a restriction.

Tyndmyr
2011-09-07, 12:38 PM
I don't understand why you put in the restriction that you may only hit each target with a single ball of fire. It hurts the usefulness a lot, and it's not really realistic as a restriction.

It was, presumably, an attempt to avoid this being a no-save just die spell.

Phosphate
2011-09-07, 02:36 PM
Problem is, this spell is WAY too good for level 3 and WAY too bad for level 4 because of it.

jiriku
2011-09-07, 03:01 PM
Oh, I dunno, 1d6+CL uncapped can be pretty decent in some circumstances. If the DM is inclined to use large mobs of weak creatures, like your sterotypical army of goblinoids or low-level human soldiers, this can clear the field of a dozen or more opponents with one spell. Its strength is the ability to affect a large number of targets automatically within a circle that might easily be 400 ft in diameter. That's an enormous area.

Yitzi
2011-09-07, 06:13 PM
Sonorous Hum concentrates for you. So, a second level spell from a common ource(SpC) entirely negates all real downsides with this.

Yeah, that has to be fixed...done.


So, with the second form, you can still cast it pre-battle, and have an exceptionally good nuke at your disposal.

Only if you know that there's a battle coming up within a number of rounds between your CL and twice your CL. It's a possible use, but for the right character there are far better ones.


though non standard for no particularly good reason

It's because it's a thrown range, not a spell range; compare Produce Flame.


and apparently does NOT require a touch attack to throw a ball of fire at someone

That was a mistake. Fixed.


and it even has damage equivalent to a d8.

It is meant to be capable of one-shotting a level 1 (or maybe even 2) enemy.


It was, presumably, an attempt to avoid this being a no-save just die spell.

Indeed.


Oh, I dunno, 1d6+CL uncapped can be pretty decent in some circumstances. If the DM is inclined to use large mobs of weak creatures, like your sterotypical army of goblinoids or low-level human soldiers, this can clear the field of a dozen or more opponents with one spell. Its strength is the ability to affect a large number of targets automatically within a circle that might easily be 400 ft in diameter. That's an enormous area.

Actually, it can only reach 200 ft in diameter. But yes, it can clear an entire building of mooks when used properly.