Help with tauric template's cr

[Runestar]

A medusa is cr7.

A tauric medusa griffon is cr5 on paper. And statistically superior in every way. Coz the designers apparently forgot that the tauric template can be used in tandem with monstrous humanoids with a lot of racial HD and high cr. :smallannoyed:

In case you are wondering, I am trying to create a medusa encounter which the party can't trivalise simply by closing their eyes.

What do you feel is a fair cr for this? I am guessing 8 or even 9? Or a more reliable way of determining the cr?

[Runestar]

So everyone has condemned the tauric template? That's why they don't face this issue? :smalltongue::smallbiggrin:

[Lateral]

Yeah, the Tauric template is horribly broken. Case in point: Baby Shemp.

[Andorax]

For the life of me, I'm trying to figure out how "tauric gryphon" is the best way to non-trivialize a Medusa encounter, besides intentionally cheating the CR rules that are there for your own benefit.

If I were to attempt to non-trivialize a Medusa encounter, where "closing one's eyes" is a serious concern, then I'd look at very different ways to do it.

1) Rogue levels, archery feats. Poison your own arrows and sneak attack those flat-footed fools into oblivion. Bonus points for con-boosting items/spells and Ability Focus: Poison for higher DCs.

2) Wizard/sorc/cleric levels. Take your pick between suggestion or command.

3) Work the environment angle. Find a way to make the setting itself extra hazardous if you can't see where you're going. Basically, set up a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario.

4) Monster of Legend is always a fun template to play with. A Medusa of Legend, just baseline, has +3 DC to petrifying gaze, and +9 to poison DC.


If you're going to tauric a medusa, then for style sake, I implore you to skip the four-leg proviso and go with Large Viper as the base. It gains next to nothing in terms of mechanical benefits, but the style points are well worth it. You could even argue a different sort of venom and grant the medusa con-damage poison as a result.


Tauric Medusa of Legend-Large Viper with a bit of equipment and feat shuffling and the right setting...yeah, now we're talking.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Monstrous Humanoids get +1 CR per 3 HD added (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng), so Tauric Medusa would be at least CR 9 just from increased saves, BAB, HP, skills/feats, and DCs. The extra one HD, along with the mobility and natural attacks, is probably worth another +1 CR, so I'd put the Tauric Medusa Griffon at CR 10. Note that a gaze attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks) can be focused on a creature as a standard action, forcing them to save against its affect even if they're not looking or if they've already had to save once that round. She could attack when it's foggy and just Flyby Attack with gazes until everyone is turned to stone.

Note however that a Medusa is found in temperate marshes, and a Griffon is found in warm hills, so the end result wouldn't really feel at home in either location. Looking at core monsters that are found in marshes (DMG p96-98 helps a lot), a Manticore would actually be a better fit. It gets one fewer HD and loses Pounce and the Rake attacks, but it gets the tail spikes which can actually be fairly significant. Give her Flyby Attack, and she should do four bombing runs with tail spikes to soften up her opponents, and then go into melee or flyby again with gaze attacks. Give her Martial Study and Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance, and her spike volley and melee attacks get +2d6 sneak attack against anyone who closes their eyes to avoid her gaze.

[Urpriest]

Monstrous Humanoids get +1 CR per 3 HD added (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#advancedMonsterChallengeRati ng), so Tauric Medusa would be at least CR 9 just from increased saves, BAB, HP, skills/feats, and DCs. The extra one HD, along with the mobility and natural attacks, is probably worth another +1 CR, so I'd put the Tauric Medusa Griffon at CR 10. Note that a gaze attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#gazeAttacks) can be focused on a creature as a standard action, forcing them to save against its affect even if they're not looking or if they've already had to save once that round. She could attack when it's foggy and just Flyby Attack with gazes until everyone is turned to stone.


Those rules are for advancing monsters, not applying templates. If you need an example of how templates that add HD affect CR, look at the lycanthropes. The template's adjustment is the only one that applies, period.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Those rules are for advancing monsters, not applying templates. If you need an example of how templates that add HD affect CR, look at the lycanthropes. The template's adjustment is the only one that applies, period.


What do you feel is a fair cr for this? I am guessing 8 or even 9? Or a more reliable way of determining the cr?

Only Humanoids and Giants can become Lycanthropes, and they can only gain the special abilities of Animals via that template. Adding HD to a creature with a save-or-die-at-will increases its DC. It increases its HP and thus the length of the fight, which is directly proportionate to the number of saves the party has to make in order to survive. I'd say adding a minimum of +1 DC per +3 HD is fair in this case, which is what he was asking for.

[Runestar]

For the life of me, I'm trying to figure out how "tauric gryphon" is the best way to non-trivialize a Medusa encounter, besides intentionally cheating the CR rules that are there for your own benefit.

I wasn't exactly intending to abuse the cr rules. The idea was to create a medusa that could still be viable in combat should the party just opt to close their eyes (or find some other way of being resistant/immune to its gaze). Plus, I like the idea of the medusa just saying 'ah, screw it' and charging headlong into battle.

I thought of rogue lvs, but the medusa's stats seem quite weak overall, and don't really scream 'combat!' at me.

I am also trying to stay away from spellcasting because I am trying to create a more unique encounter, rather than have every other foe fall back on spellcasting when their primary attack fails.:smallsmile:

A half-manticore medusa...now that's an idea...:smallcool: So now it can fire spikes from ranged, has claws+snakes+weapon in melee, all while forcing the party to fight with their eyes closed (especially from the now higher DC due to its 12HD). Think I will use that instead! :smallcool:

Now, I just need a reasonable cr, because I have realised tauric does not account for powerful humanoid forms (of which I already have a few in mind, like that redspawn arcaniss from MM4. :smallbiggrin:

On a side note, what obscene combinations have you come up with using tauric?