Well, I've managed to do something interesting

[Coidzor]

Namely, I've managed to get Knowledge Devotion banned. The archivist having it, rolling for it, but not actually using any of his ray attack spells this session may have contributed as well.

The sad thing is, most of what I fought were aberrations and dungeoneering was my weakest knowledge skill.

Didn't even really use the good rolls I got against the clockwork horrors to very great effect, since I would've either easily hit 'em or whiffed completely anyway.

[Geigan]

Nobody likes a knowitall.:smalltongue:
My sympathies.:smallfrown:

[Godskook]

Wait, what?!?

Exactly what did your DM say was the reason for banning a feat that gives a modest +5(at max) typed bonus, but requires ~7*(level+3) skill points to use effectively?

[Coidzor]

Wait, what?!?

Exactly what did your DM say was the reason for banning a feat that gives a modest +5(at max) typed bonus, but requires ~7*(level+3) skill points to use effectively?

The damage. Which is usually less than what I'm getting from strength, let alone strength*1.5.

[Greymane]

The... damage? Really? Is Craven allowed?

Oh, how about Natural Spell? Being a Core option, we know it's balanced, right? :smallsigh:

[Killer Angel]

Oh, how about Natural Spell? Being a Core option, we know it's balanced, right? :smallsigh:

If no one plays a druid, it certainly is. :smalltongue:

[Greymane]

If no one plays a druid, it certainly is. :smalltongue:

... Touchè.

texttext

[Alleran]

When your GM allows a respec every two to three levels but explicitly bans you (but not anybody else) from respeccing and from taking anything above a T3 class, then you'll know sorrow. :smalleek:

[Coidzor]

When your GM allows a respec every two to three levels but explicitly bans you (but not anybody else) from respeccing and from taking anything above a T3 class, then you'll know sorrow. :smalleek:

No, then I'd no longer know a DM.

[TheJake]

Maybe you should just play a DMM cleric with Persist spell and break the game over your knee while laughing in his face.

Or failing that, a Druid with Natural Spell if he wants to play the 'Core Only' card? :P

- J.

[Greymane]

When your GM allows a respec every two to three levels but explicitly bans you (but not anybody else) from respeccing and from taking anything above a T3 class, then you'll know sorrow. :smalleek:

That... sounds a little less like a GM and more like your personal nemesis was put in charge of your hobby. At that point it's time to vote with your feet.

[Godskook]

The damage. Which is usually less than what I'm getting from strength, let alone strength*1.5.

I....but....bwuh?

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g146/Godskook/Futurama.png

[Treblain]

Uh, it sounds like the DM didn't ban it because of its power, he was just annoyed that the player was constantly rolling free knowledge checks against every enemy. That can get irritating when a DM is trying to introduce his monsters and you keep butting in to ask what type they are and roll dice.

[JonRG]

Uh, it sounds like the DM didn't ban it because of its power, he was just annoyed that the player was constantly rolling free knowledge checks against every enemy. That can get irritating when a DM is trying to introduce his monsters and you keep butting in to ask what type they are and roll dice.


The damage. Which is usually less than what I'm getting from strength, let alone strength*1.5.

Even if it was because Coid was being disruptive, all the DM would have to do is say, "HEY! Lemme get through this description, then you can do your thing? Capisce?" Banning the feat would be unreasonable.

[DemonRoach]

Namely, I've managed to get Knowledge Devotion banned. The archivist having it, rolling for it, but not actually using any of his ray attack spells this session may have contributed as well.

The sad thing is, most of what I fought were aberrations and dungeoneering was my weakest knowledge skill.

Didn't even really use the good rolls I got against the clockwork horrors to very great effect, since I would've either easily hit 'em or whiffed completely anyway.

Bah? Out of curiosity, how optimised is your group?!

[Keld Denar]

Uh, it sounds like the DM didn't ban it because of its power, he was just annoyed that the player was constantly rolling free knowledge checks against every enemy. That can get irritating when a DM is trying to introduce his monsters and you keep butting in to ask what type they are and roll dice.

Except you can do this without Knowledge Devotion. Just the Knowledge skills alone allow you to make an immediate Knowledge check to ID monsters, with each 5 pts above the DC earning you one piece of "special" knowledge about the foe such as DR, ERs, Special Qualities, or such. Knowledge Devotion simply rewards you with +hit and +damage for doing what you'd already be doing with those ranks.

[Curmudgeon]

Namely, I've managed to get Knowledge Devotion banned. The archivist having it, rolling for it, but not actually using any of his ray attack spells this session may have contributed as well.
I think that's addressing the issue of a powerful (Tier 1) character indirectly rather than overtly. Sort of like throwing up 30 KPH speed limit signs in town when someone shows up with a Ferrari (ignoring the autobahn nearby). I've used Knowledge Devotion quite frequently, but mostly for Rogues. (I keep up with Tier 1-2 characters just fine.) I suspect the context is what matters here.

[Coidzor]

The... damage? Really? Is Craven allowed?

You know, I don't think anyone's taken a Rogue-type past level 2 in quite a while... So I can't really remember.


I....but....bwuh?

http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g146/Godskook/Futurama.png

<_< >_> ...I love that image...


Uh, it sounds like the DM didn't ban it because of its power, he was just annoyed that the player was constantly rolling free knowledge checks against every enemy. That can get irritating when a DM is trying to introduce his monsters and you keep butting in to ask what type they are and roll dice.

Not really, DM doesn't really care when wizards and psions do it to get MM knowledge of the creature and just uses their names directly anyway, more often than not.


Bah? Out of curiosity, how optimised is your group?!

Good question. We've had everything from druids who refused to wildshape and instead focused on either blasting or battlefield control as the mood took them to fighter 5/rogue 5 builds and straight-classed Gnome Paladin 12s with Dread Necromancers who managed to get the class banned from having more than 4 undead minions to just being banned along with leadership depending upon the game. And a couple of psions who pointed at enemies and made them fall down from massive fire damage.


I think that's addressing the issue of a powerful (Tier 1) character indirectly rather than overtly. Sort of like throwing up 30 KPH speed limit signs in town when someone shows up with a Ferrari (ignoring the autobahn nearby). I've used Knowledge Devotion quite frequently, but mostly for Rogues. (I keep up with Tier 1-2 characters just fine.) I suspect the context is what matters here.

9th level gish with a rather weak +12/+7 without using knowledge devotion. I mostly use my magic to give myself a miss chance/AC, to fuel wrathstrike power attacking against big nasties, and to fuel my minor shapeshift reserve feat to give myself a buffer of temporary HP.

And I still find myself lacking spells I could've used (like resist energy against 3 clockwork horrors spamming lightning bolts on me... no idea how I'd managed to leave that one off my list) and lack much in the way beyond minor gear due to the spells I had to purchase.

Considering the archivist hadn't actually used the bonuses granted by knowledge devotion in the game yet, I don't think it was done to limit the power of the archivist.

Wheras... hitting things hard, the only things that can do that in the party are me, the scout's pet tiger, and if the wizard or archivist are there that day and want to summon something big and nasty. Got a halfling scout, a human pyromaniac kineticist psion, a gnome wizard, a middle-aged or old human archivist, and a healer now that the over-leveled(yay deck of many things) monk moved away.

[Big Fau]

From the sounds of it, your group isn't optimized at all and your DM has a serious knee-jerk reaction.


I suggest building a Dragonfire Bard. You will make him cringe. Or run your own campaign, and try to teach them practical optimization the hard way.

[Greenish]

And a couple of psions who pointed at enemies and made them fall down from massive fire damage.Silly psions, when you can kill someone without lifting a finger, why would you lift it? :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

Because just saying "Bang" has less dramatic effect without the finger point?

[Big Fau]

Because just saying "Bang" has less dramatic effect without the finger point?

Actually, it does if you say it right... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cNQKbrk36w)

[Coidzor]

I suggest building a Dragonfire Bard.

Funny you should mention bards... I managed to get him to rage at wild cohort despite not actually being able to take the heavy horse I got from it with me anywhere because I was an idiot and forgot that age of worms is predominantly enclosed spaces starting off.


Silly psions, when you can kill someone without lifting a finger, why would you lift it? :smalltongue:

I think because the player enjoys theatrics, mostly. Quite animated.


Actually, it does if you say it right... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cNQKbrk36w)

Adding "#t=XXmYYs" to the end of the url is your friend in this case. I'm not even sure where in the 6 minutes and 18 seconds I should be here.... x.x

[Big Fau]

Adding "#t=XXmYYs" to the end of the url is your friend in this case. I'm not even sure where in the 6 minutes and 18 seconds I should be here.... x.x

Basically any time you hear the music change.

[navar100]

The damage. Which is usually less than what I'm getting from strength, let alone strength*1.5.

Then your DM must also object to a player character dealing 10d6 damage to everyone in a 40ft diameter circle from over 400ft away.

[Quietus]

Then your DM must also object to a player character dealing 10d6 damage to everyone in a 40ft diameter circle from over 400ft away.

What, are you kidding me? Everyone knows monks are overpowered!

[Big Fau]

Then your DM must also object to a player character dealing 10d6 damage to everyone in a 40ft diameter circle from over 400ft away.What, are you kidding me? Everyone knows monks are overpowered!

You just got me in trouble for interrupting a lecture.

[Safety Sword]

Because just saying "Bang" has less dramatic effect without the finger point?

You don't even have to say "bang" either? Just have the look of mild constipation while staring at your target.

If they don't die they'll at least get really creeped out.

[Keld Denar]

Sigh...kids these days don't even appreciate the classics...


30.Chuck Norris once shot down a German fighter plane with his finger, by yelling, "Bang!"

[Flickerdart]

Yelling with your finger, a feat worthy of Chuck Norris.

[Tytalus]

I've had a DM nerf the feat since it was "too powerful". His version was dependent on the target's HD, which breaks immersion entirely ("soooo ... how many HD does this guy have?"). Worse, even with maxed out skillpoints and high INT you'd at best get a +3 vs. level-appropriate challenges - and since monster HDs don't scale linearly, the chances of getting a better bonus than +1 would be furhter reduced the higher the level got.

I passed.

[Coidzor]

I've had a DM nerf the feat since it was "too powerful". His version was dependent on the target's HD, which breaks immersion entirely ("soooo ... how many HD does this guy have?"). Worse, even with maxed out skillpoints and high INT you'd at best get a +3 vs. level-appropriate challenges - and since monster HDs don't scale linearly, the chances of getting a better bonus than +1 would be furhter reduced the higher the level got.

I passed.

Well, at least he didn't completely Truenamer it. :/

[NecroRick]

Personally I've found that not knowing the monsters stat blocks and weaknesses has greatly increased my enjoyment of the game.

For that reason I'm not a big fan of the Knowledge Devotion, or Archivist class feature, particularly because there are numerous cheesy ways to pump them through the roof, e.g. teller of tales or collector of stories or whatever it is called.

Also, they are colossally stupid from a mechanics point of view.

E.g. for for one combat I yell out to target the Orcs in the tusk because it is their secret weakness, and in the next battle a couple of minutes later myself and everyone else in my party have forgotten this?

This is one of the more egregious rules retardations.

I guess if hard pressed I could live with a flat or pre-calculated bonus, because then it'd be just like being a bard, only with all the skipping through fields of dandelions strumming a fraggin' lute removed.

[Grendus]

Yes, but the knowledge skills from core let you know these things already. Knowledge Devotion and Dark Knowledge just let you weaponize the knowledge. And as for why you don't keep it, well, a wizard did it...

[Cor1]

Heh. Take Leadership at next level and choose an Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil cohort : "Rocks fall, everyone dies!". -"Nope. That's just 'Rocks Fall'. Umad?"

[Greyfeld85]

Actually, it does if you say it right... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cNQKbrk36w)

I was thinking something more like this. (http://metanorn.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/akira-1.jpg) :P

[The Glyphstone]

Great Modthulhu: Turn Unthread!