Turning off the optimizer.

[Ursus the Grim]

Guys, I've got a problem. And I blame you.

I was optimizing before signing up for the forums, but not to the extent that I am unfortunately capable of. If I can't figure out a game-breaking way to build a concept, I can recall a build that does. Every character I make, work on, or assist with I find myself trying to turn into an unstoppable juggernaut somehow.

While this is fun theory, its really irritating to do in practice.

The simple answer is to don't, right? But its difficult to stick to that without having my DM simply ban certain options. Its most evident with the character I'm building now.


High Strength, High Dexterity Barbarian with Wild Shape.
Smilodon is most effective form for the level.
Smilodons have pounce and rake attacks.
Pick up Rapid Assault, Improved Initiative
Buy Wild Rhino Hide.
Necklace of Valorous Natural Weapons
Leap Attack, Power Attack, Shocktrooper aren't far behind.


I'm currently at step 4 of that, and I can see further down the staircase. Technically I could pick up that last step already, but I've been telling myself not to.

So, for the optimizers (and the psychologists) in the playground, I pose this question. How do you keep yourself from going overboard in actual play while still creating an effective character?

[Gnaeus]

Optimize in team friendly ways. Optimize a healer (class or role). Optimize a buffer. Optimize for item creation and spread the wealth with your party. Optimize a skillmonkey and just be really good at disarming those traps. It is perfectly ok to be amazingly good in a specialty if your specialty doesn't take away other people's spotlight time or reduce their game enjoyment.

[Pigkappa]

If you are good at optimizing, it's likely that you aren't that bad at playing too. So you can build a crappy character and try to play it at your best.


If you can't build a crappy character (which makes no sense, actually), just ask here. It's easy.


(I don't really agree with the previous post. If a caster gives the whole party +2 attacks/round and +20 to hit and damage, he's still breaking the game, in my opinion, and that's not funny.)

[Sucrose]

I don't know why you find it difficult, but my process is generally to look at the optimization level of the party, and then tweak my character's mechanics to fit that as closely as possible. Think of it as another optimization challenge, rather than trying to 'turn off' your optimizing thought process.

[Flickerdart]

Well, Rapid Assault sucks, so you're not exactly overdoing it. Also, Dexterity isn't doing as much for you as Constitution would be.

I'm not helping at all, am I. :smallbiggrin:

[Ursus the Grim]

Optimize in team friendly ways. Optimize a healer (class or role). Optimize a buffer. Optimize for item creation and spread the wealth with your party. Optimize a skillmonkey and just be really good at disarming those traps. It is perfectly ok to be amazingly good in a specialty if your specialty doesn't take away other people's spotlight time or reduce their game enjoyment.

I see where you're coming from. Part of the issue with optimization is that it ruins the fun for the other players. Granted, being optimized support means the DM is going to have a harder time preparing an appropriate challenge, and in the case of your death, a wipe is probably not far behind, but that's an interesting way to do it, and something I've seen suggested to multiple druids.


If you are good at optimizing, it's likely that you aren't that bad at playing too. So you can build a crappy character and try to play it at your best.


If you can't build a crappy character (which makes no sense, actually), just ask here. It's easy.

I don't think I'm bad at playing at all. But the issue is that I find myself having trouble building a terrible character, because I always find myself thinking of ways to improve it.

[Yuki Akuma]

Optimise a White Raven Warblade/Crusader, a Bufftificer, a teamwork-centric Bard or a buff-centric Wizard.

Basically make an awesome guy who makes everyone else awesome.

[kamikasei]

2. Smilodon is most effective form for the level.
...
How do you keep yourself from going overboard in actual play while still creating an effective character?
So why don't you just pick something less effective than Smilodon, while still being effective? That seems like the obvious first step.

The most important thing is probably to talk to the DM. I know, that's the (and my) standard advice, but in this instance specifically: talk to the DM about the kinds of challenges you'll be facing and satisfy yourself that you're not going to be too weak to be effective in your role, and then leave it at that. Perhaps you can work out a few alternative paths to take as you level, some stronger than others, and adjust as you get a feel for the game by playing it. Playing with an open-ended ability like Wild Shape is good for that - you can pick stronger forms if you need to, but until you first do so they may as well not exist. Let her know the alternatives you have planned out, and when you feel you should step up or down a notch.

Meanwhile, take character-building resources you're not spending on being as good at your main schtick as you could be and spend them on giving yourself weak or situational but fun abilities for versatility, or on something that can provide benefits to the rest of the party.

I don't think I'm bad at playing at all. But the issue is that I find myself having trouble building a terrible character, because I always find myself thinking of ways to improve it.
It sounds like your problem is simply a mental habit that anything not as good as it possibly could be is terrible, rather than simply good enough.

[Gnaeus]

I see where you're coming from. Part of the issue with optimization is that it ruins the fun for the other players. Granted, being optimized support means the DM is going to have a harder time preparing an appropriate challenge, and in the case of your death, a wipe is probably not far behind, but that's an interesting way to do it, and something I've seen suggested to multiple druids.

The other way to do it with high tier casters is to keep your best spells in reserve. Learn and memorize the Polymorph/shapechange/time stop/gate/broken whatever, but only use it if you see a TPK (total party kill) in the immediate future. No one likes TPKs, not even most DMs.

Also, being optimized support does not necessarily make the DMs job harder. In one game in which I play, most PCs are very sub-optimized. The barbarian took a feat for Scent before Power Attack, and the druid took a 2 level dip in ranger so that she could shoot her bow in combat. When I optimize my support role, it makes my DMs job easier. That Barbarian will be in Tier 4 if I have to drag him over the line kicking and screaming.

[Ursus the Grim]

I don't know why you find it difficult, but my process is generally to look at the optimization level of the party, and then tweak my character's mechanics to fit that as closely as possible. Think of it as another optimization challenge, rather than trying to 'turn off' your optimizing thought process.

Perhaps part of the issue is that we don't really work together to create our characters, aside from pitching a general concept. Also, unfortunately, certain members of our party play characters that are, in theory, fairly decent, but play them like idiots, making it really hard to gauge theoretical and practical potency.


Well, Rapid Assault sucks, so you're not exactly overdoing it. Also, Dexterity isn't doing as much for you as Constitution would be.

I'm not helping at all, am I. :smallbiggrin:

As you can probably recall from the other thread, I was smart enough to pump Con. . . wait, no. . . GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!


Optimise a White Raven Warblade/Crusader, a Bufftificer, a teamwork-centric Bard or a buff-centric Wizard.

Basically make an awesome guy who makes everyone else awesome.

My current build is going to reduce the amount of damage my party members take. . . by killing everything dangerous fast!

[mykelyk]

Make classy build, pounce+shock trooper is just cheap, try to make build Iron Chef Style.

[Kefkafreak]

I, too, am unable to play unoptimized characters.

What I do is either

1 - Use a crappy class and optimize it to make it playable.

or

2 - Be a buffer / debuffer so that the rest of the players think their characters are better than mine.

[Tyndmyr]

Use new and different methods of optimization every time. If you've used it before, it's out.

It forces a lot more creativity.

[Runestar]

Simple. Continue to optimise, but you don't always have to use all your options or play to the best of your ability. You don't need to PA + Shocktrooper every battle, for instance.

That's the plus. You can choose to go all out if the DM ever decides to ramp up the difficulty of his challenges. Conversely, an unoptimised PC cannot decide to suddenly "not suck" in response to a tougher encounter.

[Pigkappa]

If you still can't make it, just use a PHB-only Barbarian. Items from the DMG only. This should be enough to make you quite weaker.

[Randomguy]

This happens to me, too. I suggest limiting the amount of books you let yourself use. Try only three books outside of core.

Also, try sticking to things that make decent roleplaying. For example, does it make sense for your character to want an amulet of valorous natural weapons? Would an amulet of mighty fists make more sense?

[Flickerdart]

Also, try sticking to things that make decent roleplaying. For example, does it make sense for your character to want an amulet of valorous natural weapons? Would an amulet of mighty fists make more sense?
Uhm...what? Exactly how does a Necklace of Natural Attacks differ fluff-wise from an Amulet of Mighty Fists?

[Greenish]

Would an amulet of mighty fists make more sense?Given that Amulet of Mighty Fists is ridiculously expensive, I somehow doubt it'd make more sense in-character either.

Maybe if you have lots of natural weapons, and don't want special qualities.


Anyhow, if being too strong is a problem, optimize for something that's not so easy to pump into ridiculous levels. Charger? Blah! Try to make a great duelist (the concept, not necessarily the PrC): no armour (or light armour), no magic, just a rapier and a quick wit.

[Godskook]

Another option is to stop optimizing forum quality concepts, and start optimizing some crappier concepts, like say:

-A sword and board warrior who isn't ToB(he'd be popular if it wasn't for mechanics sucking)
-The true theurge(basically make a theurge, but then stack on another theurge-class each time you notice you're too good for your party)
-"Off race" concepts, such as a Half-Orc Rogue or Dwarven Sorcerer(They exist, right?)

[Pigkappa]

This happens to me, too. I suggest limiting the amount of books you let yourself use. Try only three books outside of core.

Also, try sticking to things that make decent roleplaying. For example, does it make sense for your character to want an amulet of valorous natural weapons? Would an amulet of mighty fists make more sense?

"Three books outside of core" is enough the break the game with most concepts and in most parties.

"core only" is likely just enough to assure you won't break the game, if you aren't a full caster.

[nyarlathotep]

Take some sort of optimization challenge. Start with some really bad class or prestige class (say truenamer, monk, green star adept, etc.) and optimize the hell out of it. You should be able to get back to the level of normal player from a huge handicap.

[Ursus the Grim]

Geesh. I wish I was able to drum up this much feedback with my homebrews. Responses are listed in reverse chronological order.


Given that Amulet of Mighty Fists is ridiculously expensive, I somehow doubt it'd make more sense in-character either.

Maybe if you have lots of natural weapons, and don't want special qualities.

Anyhow, if being too strong is a problem, optimize for something that's not so easy to pump into ridiculous levels. Charger? Blah! Try to make a great duelist (the concept, not necessarily the PrC): no armour (or light armour), no magic, just a rapier and a quick wit.

I think I've done the math. At or after 3 natural weapons, the Amulet of Mighty Fists gets more cost-effective, if not versatile.


"Three books outside of core" is enough the break the game with most concepts and in most parties.
This. Given example hinges on Frostburn, Complete Warrior, Tome of Battle. And I could drop Smilodon for Dire Lion and not suffer greatly for it.



Another option is to stop optimizing forum quality concepts, and start optimizing some crappier concepts, like say:

-A sword and board warrior who isn't ToB(he'd be popular if it wasn't for mechanics sucking)
-The true theurge(basically make a theurge, but then stack on another theurge-class each time you notice you're too good for your party)
-"Off race" concepts, such as a Half-Orc Rogue or Dwarven Sorcerer(They exist, right?)


Take some sort of optimization challenge. Start with some really bad class or prestige class (say truenamer, monk, green star adept, etc.) and optimize the hell out of it. You should be able to get back to the level of normal player from a huge handicap.

This is turning out to be my favorite suggestion so far, among the numerous like them.


Uhm...what? Exactly how does a Necklace of Natural Attacks differ fluff-wise from an Amulet of Mighty Fists?
It doesn't really, except one is more likely to appear on a lizardfolk and the other is more likely to appear on a monk.


This happens to me, too. I suggest limiting the amount of books you let yourself use. Try only three books outside of core.

Also, try sticking to things that make decent roleplaying. For example, does it make sense for your character to want an amulet of valorous natural weapons? Would an amulet of mighty fists make more sense?
Yep, I don't try to stray from the fluff part of it. For instance, some of the better wild shapes are herbivorous or plants. +17 Natural Armor? Sure. But he wouldn't turn into an ankylosaurus before he turns into a T-Rex.


If you still can't make it, just use a PHB-only Barbarian. Items from the DMG only. This should be enough to make you quite weaker.
The problem is that many of my concepts lie outside the scope of core. Heck, a strict interpretation of this would be that I can't use Wild Shape, despite it being (literally) a god-given gift.


Simple. Continue to optimise, but you don't always have to use all your options or play to the best of your ability. You don't need to PA + Shocktrooper every battle, for instance.

That's the plus. You can choose to go all out if the DM ever decides to ramp up the difficulty of his challenges. Conversely, an unoptimised PC cannot decide to suddenly "not suck" in response to a tougher encounter.
I've tried this before. People seem to pick up on it. Either they call me out for being useless or they detect arrogance. "This encounter is below my full capabilities. Go take care of them, low-op rogue."

That and the fact that I will have the option there means I'll be tempted to use it.


Use new and different methods of optimization every time. If you've used it before, it's out.

It forces a lot more creativity.

Thats not a bad idea, and might be difficult. Particularly because most of my characters seem to be similar in fluff.


I, too, am unable to play unoptimized characters.

What I do is either

1 - Use a crappy class and optimize it to make it playable.

or

2 - Be a buffer / debuffer so that the rest of the players think their characters are better than mine.
But. . . a Barbarian isn't that awesome without totems, is it? That's what I tell myself, but the fact is that its one of the easiest to optimize. Totems or no. :smallsigh:



Make classy build, pounce+shock trooper is just cheap, try to make build Iron Chef Style.
Exactly my thoughts. Hence me trying to avoid it. Hence me trying to change my mindset about character generation.


The other way to do it with high tier casters is to keep your best spells in reserve. Learn and memorize the Polymorph/shapechange/time stop/gate/broken whatever, but only use it if you see a TPK (total party kill) in the immediate future. No one likes TPKs, not even most DMs.

Also, being optimized support does not necessarily make the DMs job harder. In one game in which I play, most PCs are very sub-optimized. The barbarian took a feat for Scent before Power Attack, and the druid took a 2 level dip in ranger so that she could shoot her bow in combat. When I optimize my support role, it makes my DMs job easier. That Barbarian will be in Tier 4 if I have to drag him over the line kicking and screaming.
I try to avoid full casters on principle. Particularly because I feel like I'm losing something by not using a character to its utmost potential. I'd be tempted to hit that panic button when not necessary, and then I'd have to tell my team members why I didn't just do that in the first place. Again, without sounding too arrogant.


So why don't you just pick something less effective than Smilodon, while still being effective? That seems like the obvious first step.

The most important thing is probably to talk to the DM. I know, that's the (and my) standard advice, but in this instance specifically: talk to the DM about the kinds of challenges you'll be facing and satisfy yourself that you're not going to be too weak to be effective in your role, and then leave it at that. Perhaps you can work out a few alternative paths to take as you level, some stronger than others, and adjust as you get a feel for the game by playing it. Playing with an open-ended ability like Wild Shape is good for that - you can pick stronger forms if you need to, but until you first do so they may as well not exist. Let her know the alternatives you have planned out, and when you feel you should step up or down a notch.

Meanwhile, take character-building resources you're not spending on being as good at your main schtick as you could be and spend them on giving yourself weak or situational but fun abilities for versatility, or on something that can provide benefits to the rest of the party.

It sounds like your problem is simply a mental habit that anything not as good as it possibly could be is terrible, rather than simply good enough.

We've been trying to keep the Optimonster down. That's probably why he veto'ed my first idea, which was a (I know it sounds impossible) High-Op Monk with VoP and several Unarmed Strike boosters in addition to Wild Shape. The problem I have with limiting my Wild Shape is that there are some very fluff-suited choices that are still fairly potent.

But you're absolutely correct on the core problem, and that was the thing I was trying to work around when I started the thread.

[Greenish]

I think I've done the math. At or after 3 natural weapons, the Amulet of Mighty Fists gets more cost-effective, if not versatile.At three natural weapons, the difference is relatively small, especially at higher enhancement bonuses.

Amulet is (cost of +X)*3, Necklace is ((cost of +X)+600)*(number of natural weapons it applies to).

[Midnight_v]

If I may...

The thing about optimizing is this.


Having 100 when you need 1
is not optimal.
Having 1 whenever you need 1
Is
Or something like that.

Keep in mind that optimization is not the same as Op (overpowered) and I see people make that mistake all the time. Optimization is as always about finding the "Sweet spot" of what you're trying to play.
So what you need to do is find the "sweet spot" of where you want the char to be. Once you have a viable combat thing going on? Stop.
You don't to push a concept to its natural limit.
Once you know what the limits are you can set your own.

[Ursus the Grim]

At three natural weapons, the difference is relatively small, especially at higher enhancement bonuses.

Amulet is (cost of +X)*3, Necklace is ((cost of +X)+600)*(number of natural weapons it applies to).

Yeah, I've learned that by playing multiple lizardfolk. For most purposes I'd go with the Necklace, if only for the versatility.


If I may...

The thing about optimizing is this.


Or something like that.

Keep in mind that optimization is not the same as Op (overpowered) and I see people make that mistake all the time. Optimization is as always about finding the "Sweet spot" of what you're trying to play.
So what you need to do is find the "sweet spot" of where you want the char to be. Once you have a viable combat thing going on? Stop.
You don't to push a concept to its natural limit.
Once you know what the limits are you can set your own.

You know, that's what people keep telling me. Who knows, I may be able to do it.