3.5 Core-only Druid Help

[Darkweave31]

I'm relatively new to 3.5, though I've been wanting to try it for a long time. I've finally found a group to play with so I decided to be a Dwarf Druid. I need some advice on stats, feats, and spell selection. Starting at level 1.

So, I rolled:
9, 15, 14, 14, 10, 7
I assume 15 in Wisdom and 14 in Constitution, how would I best arrange the other stats? I'd like to be strong enough to survive until I can become a bear at least

For the feat I was thinking improved initiative (I like going first :smalltongue:) but i'm somewhat lost on what druids need for feats

Now for spells, the party (all level 1 or 2, bard, archer ranger, fighter, sorcerer) has no healing... in general, should i prepare healing spells? If not, then what?

Thanks for your help!

[gbprime]

The standard core load out for druid feats are

1 - Spell Focus - Conjuration
3 - Augment Summoning
6 - Natural Spell

This improves the fighting ability of anything you can summon and lets you cast spells while wildshaped.

As far as healing spells go, there's nothing wrong with loading up on them. You can always spontaneously summon critters instead. Besides, with Core-only your best "buff me and my pet so we both chew on things" spells are not available.

[Darthteej]

One thing you need to keep in mind when playing a druid is to only use your incredible power when it's needed. Otherwise you're going to outshine the fighter and ranger, because nothing beats a spellcasting tiger.

[Keld Denar]

1 Spell Focus Conjouration
3 Augmented Summoning
6 Natural Spell
9 Skill Focus: Craft(Basketweaving)
12 Skill Focus: Profession(Basketweaving)
15 Skill Focus: Perform(Basketweaving)
18 Skill Focus: Knowledge(Basketweaving)

That should cover pretty much all of your bases.

[NecroRick]

The standard core load out for druid feats are

1 - Spell Focus - Conjuration


Wait. What? Why?

Is a +1 to the DC of Conjuration spells worth wasting a feat on??? As a Druid?

[Keld Denar]

Prereqs, my dear Watson. Prereqs.

Augmented Summoning, one of the best feats for Droods, requires it. Thus, its a feat tax, but an acceptable feat tax.

There are a few Conjourations that require saves, but most of them are non-core or non-Druid. Still, not a bad feat tax for the awesomeness that is Augmented Summoning.

[Greenish]

Wait. What? Why?Prerequisite for Augment Summoning. :smallamused:

I'd put the 15 to Wis, then 14 to Con, the other 14 to Str, 10 to Dex, 9 Int, 7 Cha. Or if you don't want to mix it in melee before wildshape, dump physical stats (other than Con) and put the decent ones into mental.

[LansXero]

Are those before or after racial modifiers? Im guessing before. a 7 in cha would give you a net 5 charisma... not that it matters at all, but get used to jokes about the ugly dwarf hehe

I think in core only it could also be viable to go into a mounted combat route, right? wolf animal companion to ride into battle! :D

[TehLivingDeath]

Prereqs, my dear Watson. Prereqs.

Augmented Summoning, one of the best feats for Droods, requires it. Thus, its a feat tax, but an acceptable feat tax.

There are a few Conjourations that require saves, but most of them are non-core or non-Druid. Still, not a bad feat tax for the awesomeness that is Augmented Summoning.

Plus it's not like Druids need a lot of feats. There's not a lot to do with them in Core (a few metamagic feats are nice, but they can be delayed until 9th level or even later). They only become really starved for feats once you allow splats and realize how much stuff you're missing out on.

[Greenish]

Plus it's not like Druids need a lot of feats. There's not a lot to do with them in Core (a few metamagic feats are nice, but they can be delayed until 9th level or even later).Multiattack and INA or two. IUS -> Imp Grapple isn't bad, either. Fly-by Attack is pretty sweet for more caster-y druid.

But yeah, Core doesn't have that many useful feats. At least a druid can probably find something useful for his slots, unlike a fighter.

[Godskook]

You can afford to dip 3 levels elsewhere over the course of your career. First either dip monk* or grab a belt, to get that tasty Wis to AC, which will likely be worth more than most armors. It'll also grab you a lot of useful feats you probably would've wanted anyway. Grabbing the other 2 levels in fighter/monk is worth it too, however, only the first monk level can be taken pre-10, as you really need to push into useful wildshape and mid-level spells as quickly as possible.

As for healing. The heal skill is going to be worth more to you than combat healing, and you should team up with the other casters to get all your enchanting done 'in-house' if you can, which makes for another great thing you can do while you're forcing the beserker PCs(referring to mentality, not build type) to rest for a few days. Later on, you can start buying wands of cure light wounds(cheap enough to be worth it in a properly supplied party), but you'll want that "sometimes we have downtime" lesson to be well learned first.

*Warning: Excessive monk levels have been linked to suckage. To avoid this condition, limit per-PC use to at most 2 levels. Please consult your local optimization forum should suckage actually occur.

[OverdrivePrime]

Do you know what the rest of the people you're playing with are going to be? In a core-only game (or any game) druids are extremely potent. If you're rolling out with fighters and rogues, you'll want to exercise restraint, and like someone said earlier, pack a lot of heal spells.

Be nice to your DM and don't take a dinosaur animal companion, and please make your save vs cheese to avoid turning into one. Just say no to dinos unless your DM is running a "Savage Lands" campaign.

Otherwise, Druids are like the warblades of Core. It's really hard to get them wrong, and even if you do, you'll still have a lot of fun.

Always remember that you can summon things that cast spells for you. The ability to drop a spell and call up unicorns, nixies, jann and the like gives you even more flexibility, as if you weren't already more flexible than an half-ooze unarmed swordsage.

[NOhara24]

1 Spell Focus Conjouration
3 Augmented Summoning
6 Natural Spell
9 Skill Focus: Craft(Underwater Basketweaving)
12 Skill Focus: Profession(Basketweaving)
15 Skill Focus: Perform(Basketweaving)
18 Skill Focus: Knowledge(Basketweaving)

That should cover pretty much all of your bases.

That first bit is important, what if it's an aquatic campaign?

[Keld Denar]

This has been brought up a few times. Underwater basketweaving is similar enough to normal basketweaving that it would result in the same check but with an increase to the DC (or penalty to the roll, either works) to account for unfamiliarity with the surroundings. That said, a creature with the Aquatic or Amphibious subtype would recieve no such penalty due to their inherant familiarity with underwater settings.

[Darkweave31]

underwater basketweaving while wild shaped into an octopus... nobody expects the basketweaving mollusk! :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for all the input. If all goes well I might just make it to level 2. I'll be sure to max that craft (basketweaving).

[Gavinfoxx]

A serious answer is to get Improved Natural Attack Claw and Multiattack. Are non phb/dmg/mm1 feats in the SRD considered 'core' in your group?

[BlueInc]

My first character was a druid :D

What animal companion were you considering? Wolf/Riding Dog are considered the strongest in melee.

[Darthteej]

underwater basketweaving while wild shaped into an octopus... nobody expects the basketweaving mollusk! :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for all the input. If all goes well I might just make it to level 2. I'll be sure to max that craft (basketweaving).

Seriously though, don't go crazy unless everyone else is bleeding on the floor. In that case it is acceptable to transform into the biggest, meanest animal you can think of, and then summon a dozen bears with Nature's Ally spells.

Once the other players pick their jaws up, they'll thank you for it.

[OverdrivePrime]

Oh, and to Darthteej's point, one of the failings of druids is that they can stop play for a while while they figure out all of their forms and summons. Don't be that druid!

The courteous druid comes to the game with the stats of any animals he'd be likely to summon, and well as his own stats when wildshaped into 3 or 4 primary forms (war form, flying form, spy form, and maybe secondary war form).

[Eldariel]

I think you want to go:

Wis > Con > Dex > Int > Cha > Str for low levels. This assumes you won't be meleeing but enables you to use ranged attacks (including Touch Attacks such as Alchemist's Fire or Produce Flame) and gives you a decent setup far as saves/AC/Initiative goes. Leave melee to your animal companion.

Alternatively, if you want more skillpoints you could go with 10 Dex 14 Int giving you advantage later but making your first 4 levels rougher (though you still have animal companion). This would also qualify you for Combat Expertise which opens up Improved Trip down the road (a rather reasonable feat for Druids). On the other hand, you can get Improved Unarmed Strike > Improved Grapple from Dex (which is also reasonable if weaker) so it's kinda useful either way (and you should be able to take Dex-based feats and use them in forms with good base Dex but that depends on the DM).


As for feats:
- Spell Penetration-line is pretty good in Core and nice for Druids with their solid offensive casting.
- There's some Spell Foci to consider. Though they're largely somewhat restricted.
- Augment Summoning is decent. Mind, I wouldn't consider it must like many people seem to; it's fully possible that you aren't really that interested in using summons heavily in combat and stick to more utility summons. Two feats is a sizable investment. That said, it's a reasonable option. Basically +2 to hit & damage and +2 HP/Level and +2 Fort-saves for all your summons. Some also get improved DCs on their abilities thanks to Con/Str increase, and improved opposed checks.
- Craft-feats are pretty good on all casters and Druid is no exception. Particularly Craft Magic Arms & Armor and Craft Wondrous Items are of interest for Druid since there are some you really want (Beads of Karma, +1 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate, +1 Wild Heavy Shield, some Ioun Stones and company).
- Multiattack [MM] as mentioned is a solid feat. Most good forms have multiple attacks and thus it gives you sizable To Hit bonuses.
- Flyby Attack [MM] is likewise useful if you're interested in skirmishing in flying forms.
- Improved Grapple & Improved Trip are both decent, as mentioned.

I wouldn't bother with Improved Natural Attack; it's largely a bad Weapon Specialization outside like...Tyrannosaur form where it's decent (but even then, it's kinda meh).


Some good Animal Companions out of Core:
- Riding Dog (War-Trained)
- Dire Bat
- Crocodile
- Brown Bear
- Dire Wolf
- Tiger
- Giant Crocodile
- Rhinoceros (though they're kinda unwieldy)
- Polar Bear
- Dire Lion
- Dire Bear
- Dire Tiger
- Tyrannosaur


Wildshape...well, similar forms really. Most cat forms & dinosaurs are good for charging, wolves trip, bears brawl (and grapple), crocodiles grapple and avians fly.


Skills:
Max out Concentration & Knowledge: Nature. Enough Handle Animal to take 10 to teach your Animal Companion stuff (+10 including the +4 for handling your AC). Spot, Listen & Tumble are good. Spellcraft if you need self-sufficiency or have no other casters in the party. Hide & Move Silently are solid too, especially in some forms.


Spells:
- Entangle
- Faerie Fire (to deal with invisibility; might not be that important to prepare but at least have a Scroll)
- Produce Flame (it's not pretty but it can work)

- Soften Earth and Stone
- Barkskin
- Resist Energy
- Summon Swarm
- Animal's X (Bear's Endurance, Bull's Strength, etc.)
- Lesser Restoration

- Greater Magic Fang (split it at first, cast individually for each natural weapon once you exceed level 8)
- Sleet Storm
- Wind Wall (scroll is handy)
- (Call Lightning) (at this point, you really shouldn't need damage magic anymore as you can just attack in Wildshape)

- Air Walk
- Dispel Magic
- Freedom of Movement
- Giant Vermin
- Ice Storm

- Animal Growth
- Baleful Polymorph
- Control Winds
- Death Ward
- Transmute Rock to Mud

- Anti-Life Shell
- Greater Dispel Magic
- Wall of Stone


Those are the big ones for the first 6 levels, in addition to Summon Nature's Ally (master that list; stuff like Unicorns, Janni, Pixie, Thoqquas, etc. are very very, very useful for replicating spell effects you can't easily cast and there are some solid combat creatures on that list too, especially with Animal Growth).

You should also keep in mind stuff like Commune with Nature, Speak With Animals and such for solving things when it becomes relevant of course (and if you need to farm land, Plant Growth). Also, obviously Endure Elements, Water Breathing and such as necessary but those should go without saying.

Only prepare Cures when you don't have access to Wand of Cure Light Wounds (should be one of party's first purchases); may need to on level 1 tho. Still, never leave home without Entangle or two. Once you reach level 7, Summon Nature's Ally IV can get you Unicorns with superb healing powers better than casting Cures yourself (and you can get more of 'em outta SNAV and SNAVI).

Note that you can't cast Restoration yourself so for already inflicted negative levels, you need a Rogue or Cleric for Wand of Restoration (Cleric can obviously just cast the spell; Rogue has Use Magic Device).

[Safety Sword]

Are those before or after racial modifiers? Im guessing before. a 7 in cha would give you a net 5 charisma... not that it matters at all, but get used to jokes about the ugly dwarf hehe


You mean ugly BEAR.

[Greenish]

Wildshape...well, similar forms really. Most cat forms & dinosaurs are good for charging, wolves trip, bears brawl (and grapple), crocodiles grapple and non-dinosaur avians fly.For the great pedantry!


You mean ugly BEAR.Nobody calls a bear ugly. :smallamused:

[TheJake]

I think you want to go:
I wouldn't bother with Improved Natural Attack; it's largely a bad Weapon Specialization outside like...Tyrannosaur form where it's decent (but even then, it's kinda meh).


You understand INA is a pre-requisite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedGrapple)? It's not an option. You can get the feat but unless you acquire the feat by a form or any other method, then you cannot use the Improved Grapple feat.

- J.

[Gullintanni]

You understand INA is a pre-requisite (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedGrapple)? It's not an option. You can get the feat but unless you acquire the feat by a form or any other method, then you cannot use the Improved Grapple feat.

- J.

I'm pretty 100% sure Improved Natural Attack is a different feat than Improved Unarmed Strike. IUS is a prerequisite. INA is not.

SRD:

Improved Natural Attack [General]

Prerequisite
Natural weapon, base attack bonus +4.

Benefit

Choose one of the creature’s natural attack forms. The damage for this natural weapon increases by one step, as if the creature’s size had increased by one category: 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 2d6, 3d6, 4d6, 6d6, 8d6, 12d6.

A weapon or attack that deals 1d10 points of damage increases as follows: 1d10, 2d8, 3d8, 4d8, 6d8, 8d8, 12d8.

This feat may be taken multiple times, but each time it applies to a different natural attack.

Improved Unarmed Strike [General]
Benefit

You are considered to be armed even when unarmed —that is, you do not provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed. However, you still get an attack of opportunity against any opponent who makes an unarmed attack on you.

In addition, your unarmed strikes can deal lethal or nonlethal damage, at your option.
Normal

Without this feat, you are considered unarmed when attacking with an unarmed strike, and you can deal only nonlethal damage with such an attack.
Special

A monk automatically gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at 1st level. She need not select it.

A fighter may select Improved Unarmed Strike as one of his fighter bonus feats.

[Draz74]

I'm with Eldariel -- Spell Focus and Augment Summoning are only needed if summoning is your main combat strategy. It's a powerful option, but I recommend against it because it slows the game down a lot.

Multiattack is amazing once you're spending much of your day in Wild Shape.

I'm surprised how little Metamagic has been mentioned. It seems like at least Extend Spell and Quicken Spell are things you definitely need to pick up eventually.

[hex0]

Which core is this? SRD? If so...

Rapid Metabolism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#rapidMetabolism)
When you wildshape you heal as though you rested for the night...

[Safety Sword]

Nobody calls a bear ugly. :smallamused:

They do, but then they get eaten by BEARS

[Talya]

Not debating the great power of Augment Summoning, but since when is it Core?


Apart from Natural Spell (which, if your DM isn't smart enough to ban it, you will take), druids don't really need any feat. You might choose to pick a specialty and go with it, but in general, you may wish to consider:

Spell Penetration
Your favorite metamagic feats
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Natural Attack
Armor Proficiency (heavy) ... in case you get your hands on some +5 wild dragonscale full plate


Sadly, in core-only, even Weapon Focus isn't a terrible choice, if only because there aren't many really good choices. And in either case, your druid will kick ass.

[Eldariel]

Not debating the great power of Augment Summoning, but since when is it Core?

Since it's in the PHB :smallwink: Page 89, right row, 15-20th lines to be exact.

[Darkweave31]

It is PHB, DMG, MMI core. What should I do in terms of a weapon? I was thinking heavy shield and a club/shortspear, but then i realized it may become annoying for spellcasting.

[Eldariel]

It is PHB, DMG, MMI core. What should I do in terms of a weapon? I was thinking heavy shield and a club/shortspear, but then i realized it may become annoying for spellcasting.

Wooden Heavy Shield's fine. Carry a Sling; it's the only ranged weapon they get inherently so might as well pluck some stones every now and then. You really shouldn't be in melee unless you have strength. Leave melee for your animal companion. Mostly, your armament should be defensive; if you don't have racial proficiencies, Druid without 14+ Strength really doesn't have too many weapon options. You have no business fighting in melee; run of the mill Goblin would beat you.

Level 2-3 when you can afford them, you can throw Alchemist's Fires no problem. Those are relatively efficient ranged weapons (touch attacks, even with splash effect) for low levels.

[Eldariel]

Forums are being difficult; I need to make this post to make my last post show up *sigh*


To add some content, I should echo Draz74 in that some Metamagic is probably a good idea. Extend Spell is a fairly good feat (though Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend is a rather cheap item and covers that for quite a while) and Quicken Spell is an absolute must if you ever get to level 12 (especially since Druid has some great low level spells and in animal form, you probably can't use Rods so Rod of Quicken Spell isn't going to cover for this).

[Talya]

Since it's in the PHB :smallwink: Page 89, right row, 15-20th lines to be exact.

Bah. I was getting it confused with Augment Healing.

[hex0]

Two dip in Monk is decent in core for Druid...except the delayed casting and you have to be lawful neutral...BUT 3 bonus feats, evasion, good saves, in-class tumble, WIS to AC...and you can just barely qualify for hierophant at the end of your build...

Why not Ranger 2 and let your dm take multiattack as your combat style? 6 Skills, ref. save, endurance...take a useful favored enemy like chaotic outsiders.

Or just. you know. play druid 20.

[Eldariel]

Two dip in Monk is decent in core for Druid...except the delayed casting and you have to be lawful neutral...BUT 3 bonus feats, evasion, good saves, in-class tumble, WIS to AC...and you can just barely qualify for hierophant at the end of your build...

First level can be occasionally vindicated if Monk's Belt somehow isn't available, for some melee build. Two? I'd say it's never optimal. Druid-levels are just that much more powerful than anything else.

[hex0]

First level can be occasionally vindicated if Monk's Belt somehow isn't available, for some melee build. Two? I'd say it's never optimal. Druid-levels are just that much more powerful than anything else.

WIS to AC is good Druid since they can't wear anything better that Hide Armor. (3 bonus.) Your WIS should be at least 20 by the end of your build (5 bonus).

[Eldariel]

WIS to AC is good Druid since they can't wear anything better that Hide Armor. (3 bonus.) Your WIS should be at least 20 by the end of your build (5 bonus).

Yes, I agree the first level can be worth it with some provisos (especially the fact that Monk Unarmed Strike is retained in Wildshape as it's a class feature, thus giving you a full primary manufactured weapon attack in addition to your secondary Naturals) on a melee-oriented Druid (potential 5 extra attacks and a free feat without having to meet prerequisites and Wis to AC). The second one only gives you Evasion and 1 feat though which just doesn't cut it compared to a level of Druid. That said, Monk's Belt gives you identical benefits. And your Wis should be at least 30 by the end of the build (if you started with 15); generally more. There's +5 from levels, +6 from enhancement bonus and +4-5 inherent (yes, it's worth it for casters in their casting stat). In Core with no Wilding Clasps you might have to make do with Ioun Stones in animal forms (you can theoretically just put the items on after Wildshaping but this has to of course be repeated each time you Wildshape) which cuts it down to 26-30 but c'est la vie and it's hardly crippling.

You're also forgetting about Dragonhide; for the meager price of twice the normal Mw. Armor you get something a Druid can wear. Dragonhide Breastplate is 700gp; not much far as armors go. Lategame Dragonhide Fullplate can be worn by a Druid (though it does cost 3300gp) and it's +8. +5 Wild Dragonhide Fullplate and +5 Wild Heavy Wooden Shield means you get +13 Armor bonus and +7 Shield-bonus consistently; even using fast-time-plane aging with Timeless Body you're only looking at 36-38 Wis for +13-+14 and +8 Armor if you can make the Bracers work (otherwise +4 from Mage Armor, unless you can benefit of Wild Armor which is melded, which isn't strictly against RAW and would obviously make the combination vastly superior).

[hex0]

Then again...this is a Dwarf so there would be a mutliclass penalty. If I was core only Id still play Monk2/Druid18. You also get Monk skills that Druids dont have and 5 points is enough for synergy bonus (Im looking at you tumble). A reflex boost and evasion will help survivability, too. getting bonus feats without prereqs is nice too. I would like to have improved grapple for when I shift into a bear later AND have a feat freed up.

It will be awhile before you can have a dragon skin to use and you would get the monk WIS to ac while in animal form too...

[Eldariel]

Then again...this is a Dwarf so there would be a mutliclass penalty. If I was core only Id still play Monk2/Druid18. You also get Monk skills that Druids dont have and 5 points is enough for synergy bonus (Im looking at you tumble). A reflex boost and evasion will help survivability, too. getting bonus feats without prereqs is nice too. I would like to have improved grapple for when I shift into a bear later AND have a feat freed up.

Sure, and you gave up 1 caster level, 1 Wildshape level, 1 level of companion advancement & Huge Elemental Wildshape. The skill consideration isn't major; the extra point you have to spend to cross-class Tumble or Balance (the two considerations with useful effects on 5 ranks Druid doesn't have) to rank 5 are pretty minimal. And 1 point in Reflex and Evasion...yeah, no.

Improved Grapple is gained on level 1. Level 2 is Combat Reflexes or Deflect Arrows, neither of which is terribly useful for a Druid. If we go outside Core it gets better but 1 feat still isn't worth 1 level of casting, let alone 1 level of everything a Druid gets (there's a reason for the "Thou Shalt Not Lose Caster Levels"-commandment).


It will be awhile before you can have a dragon skin to use and you would get the monk WIS to ac while in animal form too...

Dragonskin Breastplates are cheap enough to be available in common towns before Fighters even get their Fullplates. We're talking level 2 here, way before Wildshape is even a consideration. Dragonhide Fullplates are available around 5-6.