No low level NPC's!

[Kansaschaser]

What if there were no NPC's from level 1-9? What if the lowest level NPC out there was level 10 and it only went up from there? The lowest level monsters would be ECL 10 or higher too. What would be the ramifications?

Also, what if there were no NPC classes and all the NPC's had normal player classes? No Commoners, no Adepts, no Experts, etc...

Are either of these bad ideas? If so, why?

I only ask because I'm thinking about starting an Epic campaign where the players start at level 10, and progress from there. Plus, when they do get to epic level, I want to let the level 10-20 NPC's stand a chance against the player characters.

[Laura Eternata]

I have a feeling that if you do that, you'll be in for a LOT of bookkeeping. I mean, it's annoying enough to have to come up with a dozen general NPC stat sheets when they're all level one. Just think of how long it'll take to do that for level 10-20... :smalleek:

Other than that, I don't foresee any problems. Just make sure your players know beforehand so they won't be expecting the usual godhood that comes with high levels.

[Arbane]

What if there were no NPC's from level 1-9? What if the lowest level NPC out there was level 10 and it only went up from there? The lowest level monsters would be ECL 10 or higher too. What would be the ramifications?

Also, what if there were no NPC classes and all the NPC's had normal player classes? No Commoners, no Adepts, no Experts, etc...


How would anyone ever live to get to level 5, let alone level 10?

Why would any NPC bother hiring PCs to do anything?

The ecology would be astoundingly messed-up, but that's pretty normal for D&D....

[EvilJoe15]

Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that with so many people capable of casting Planar Binding, and even more the lesser version. Death is a minor inconvenience at most(Because of nightmares giving astral projection to anyone who asks), and the wish economy would be in full force, if not full on Tippyverse.

Also, everyone in the world is a supreme badass. Things like this being common. (http://www.stickpage.com/shock2play.shtml)

[DeAnno]

Basically, everyone is a superhero. It's like the Marvelverse if everyone was a mutant. (Most Marvel mutants are actually pretty inferior to level 10 characters)

[Flickerdart]

It would be the Tippyverse incarnate - you wouldn't have any farming, for one, everyone would take spellcasting classes (because by level 10, you kind of need to), the society would be completely post-scarcity...

[DiBastet]

Why everyone managed level 10 is irrelevant. However, one must know if everyone attains "power equal to level 10" when they become adults or ir they have to work for it.

If they work for it, then it's a little dumb.

If everyone just has this power and ability, it's something like Valhalla and the gods, both Aesir and Vanir. They are born powerful and versatile cretures. There are some that are more powerful, but no one is really "worthless" and everyone can do awesome things.

[Kansaschaser]

How would anyone ever live to get to level 5, let alone level 10?

Why would any NPC bother hiring PCs to do anything?

The ecology would be astoundingly messed-up, but that's pretty normal for D&D....

Basically, level 10 would be the new level 1. I might consider children to be level 1, then as they age from childhood to the first age category, they become level 10.

As for NPC's needing PC's to do things for them, it would have to be things that much higher level PC's would be needed for.


Well, the first thing that comes to mind is that with so many people capable of casting Planar Binding, and even more the lesser version. Death is a minor inconvenience at most(Because of nightmares giving astral projection to anyone who asks), and the wish economy would be in full force, if not full on Tippyverse.

Also, everyone in the world is a supreme badass. Things like this being common. (http://www.stickpage.com/shock2play.shtml)

Oh, the Planar Binding and Wish tricks won't be a problem in my campaign. I use most (if not all) of the rules for the Test of Spite.

[Eldan]

Still. Any Divine caster can feed a few dozen people per day, even if he doesn't devote all his spell slots. So, no one needs to farm or hunt anymore. Spellcasters get Fabricate and Creation, so we don't need Craftsman either. Teleport is a viable and common form of travel, so we don't need roads or inns. WE don't need fortifications either, since we have squads of dimension-dooring mage assassins. On the other hand, if you need a castle, your neighbour can build you one.

Edit: of course, there's also no diseases.

[Ashiel]

Are either of these bad ideas? If so, why?

The biggest reason it's a bad idea is because you are just adjusting the bar to the point everyone is ridiculous, not just the people who are supposed to be crazy-awesome. Let me put it another way...

You gain nothing by this. If you make level 10 the new level 1, then why not just start at level 1? There's nothing special about being 10th level.

[Daer]

I don't see bigger problem with this as long casters would be rare and most people would have only mundane class levels. for example most priests might be just fighters who serve the god wihtout gaining spells and only few would actually be able to do a real spells..

i guess wanting to use 10 as starting level has something to do with some classes and many multiclass builds are pretty boring or weak on early levels.

[Kansaschaser]

Still. Any Divine caster can feed a few dozen people per day, even if he doesn't devote all his spell slots. So, no one needs to farm or hunt anymore. Spellcasters get Fabricate and Creation, so we don't need Craftsman either. Teleport is a viable and common form of travel, so we don't need roads or inns. WE don't need fortifications either, since we have squads of dimension-dooring mage assassins. On the other hand, if you need a castle, your neighbour can build you one.

Edit: of course, there's also no diseases.

So...

1. No farmers needed if you can just create food. That means no one would be fighting for farm land. That's pretty cool since farm land is a huge portion of a kingdom.

2. Fabricate and Unseen Crafters would be the new crafting system. However, you still need to know how to create the items to begin with. So before you can make it magically, you would need to be trained to make it the mundane way. That means people with crafting skills would need to be available to teach the spellcasters how to make said items.

3. Teleport and Dimension Door would be the easiest ways for assassins to get in and out fast. That means most cities, towns, and castles will probably be surrounded by spells that prevent teleportation. Teleporting can only be done at official locations inside the city (or possibly only outside the city).

4. There are a few diseases that take more than just Remove Disease to get rid of. Most mundane diseases people wouldn't worry about.


The biggest reason it's a bad idea is because you are just adjusting the bar to the point everyone is ridiculous, not just the people who are supposed to be crazy-awesome. Let me put it another way...

You gain nothing by this. If you make level 10 the new level 1, then why not just start at level 1? There's nothing special about being 10th level.

I'm starting everyone at level 10 because I want to run an epic game. I want a reason that all characters are level 10 to begin with. Also, I don't let my players prestige class before level 10. Also, they can't change classes before level 10. So if they wanted to play a Wizard, they would be a level 10 Wizard and nothing else.

[Ashiel]

I'm starting everyone at level 10 because I want to run an epic game. I want a reason that all characters are level 10 to begin with. Also, I don't let my players prestige class before level 10. Also, they can't change classes before level 10. So if they wanted to play a Wizard, they would be a level 10 Wizard and nothing else.

Perhaps I'm not making my point clear enough. I'm saying there is nothing special about them being level 10 if everyone is 10th level. In other words, you are making it so that there is no difference between 10th and 20th level, and 20th and 30th level. For 10th level to mean anything, there has to be a 9 and lower.

It's entirely fine to begin a campaign where the PCs are 10th level. Just means they have some history, and have been around the block. They're 10th level and ready to go off to achieve the unthinkable. This is very similar to Baldur's Gate II where you can roll up a fresh 8th-9th level character and then go up to like 20th and then 40th level or so. It doesn't mean every commoner in Baldur's Gate is going to be walking around at 8th and 9th level.

If everyone did start at 8th and 9th level, then there's no point in being 8th or 9th level because the scale has just been reset with different numbers.

[King Atticus]

Still. Any Divine caster can feed a few dozen people per day, even if he doesn't devote all his spell slots. So, no one needs to farm or hunt anymore. Spellcasters get Fabricate and Creation, so we don't need Craftsman either. Teleport is a viable and common form of travel, so we don't need roads or inns. WE don't need fortifications either, since we have squads of dimension-dooring mage assassins. On the other hand, if you need a castle, your neighbour can build you one.

Edit: of course, there's also no diseases.

This is a problem as I see it because now all of a sudden everyone has a lot of time on their hands and people with too much time on their hands tend to get themselves into trouble. You'd end up with people who aren't afraid of death and therefor do really stupid reckless things. You'd have people who spend all day at the inn and starting brawls every night. You'd have people with crazy amounts of free time to hatch moronically complex schemes to commit crimes...not because they need whatever they're trying to steal but because it's something to do. Giving the "common" person that much free time and free will turns the world back into the old west or some hyper-darwinist post-apocalyptic wasteland where bad people are really bad and neutral people go bad outta boredom and good people are afraid to leave their lead-lined wall anti-magic fielded house.

[Valameer]

The coolest thing about an epic campaign is that you've finally far surpassed all others on your planet, and are ready to take on nearly godly challenges.

Starting everyone at 10th might strip this sense of achievement from the game.

Keep NPCs at the normal level (mostly 1), but come up with another way to justify the players beginning at 10th. Either require a nice backstory to explain the level, or just infuse them with forgotten power from a dead god or something.

It will be less paperwork for you (because looking at a world where everyone is at least 10th level would be like looking down the rabbit hole) and more satisfying for the players when they hit epic levels.

[Urpriest]

If monsters are limited by ECL rather than CR then you won't see many high level monsters. For example, a Troll is going to start out with no levels, so all trolls in the world begin at CR 5, easy pickings for the level 10 NPCs.

[Tyndmyr]

I'm starting everyone at level 10 because I want to run an epic game. I want a reason that all characters are level 10 to begin with.

Bigger numbers are not what makes a game feel epic.


Also, I don't let my players prestige class before level 10. Also, they can't change classes before level 10. So if they wanted to play a Wizard, they would be a level 10 Wizard and nothing else.

Why?

[Kansaschaser]

I think the pros outweigh the cons for making level 10 the standard. Sure there are lower level NPC's, but they are children and adolescents.

Everyone seems to think that the NPC's would abuse their power and do really bad things. I think there are a lot more people that would do good. In my games, most people in civilized societies are good and/or neutral and crime rates are at about 5%. So only 5% of the population would go out and commit crimes. The other 95% would be helping society.


Why?

It cuts down on some cheese and gives them a solid character foundation. They would have clearly defined roles.

[Kansaschaser]

I think the pros outweigh the cons for making level 10 the standard. Sure there are lower level NPC's, but they are children and adolescents.

Everyone seems to think that the NPC's would abuse their power and do really bad things. I think there are a lot more people that would do good. In my games, most people in civilized societies are good and/or neutral and crime rates are at about 5%. So only 5% of the population would go out and commit crimes. The other 95% would be helping society.


Why?

It cuts down on some cheese and gives them a solid character foundation. They would have clearly defined roles.

[Flickerdart]

So only 5% of the population would go out and commit crimes. The other 95% would be helping society.
When your average hobo on the street can punch tigers to death all day without tiring, crime stops being "stealing someone's handbag" and starts being "stealing people's souls" and "butchering the laws of reality".

[SowZ]

I think the pros outweigh the cons for making level 10 the standard. Sure there are lower level NPC's, but they are children and adolescents.

Everyone seems to think that the NPC's would abuse their power and do really bad things. I think there are a lot more people that would do good. In my games, most people in civilized societies are good and/or neutral and crime rates are at about 5%. So only 5% of the population would go out and commit crimes. The other 95% would be helping society.



It cuts down on some cheese and gives them a solid character foundation. They would have clearly defined roles.

You could just make leveling up to ten a lot easier and involve less risking of life and limb. Then the changes would be apparant and you still get the advantages you are talking about, but there is still a difference between first and tenth level and tenth level is above average. For example, children are level one but young adults are typically level three and good at a trade, (all trades are enchancemed by magic items. There aren't enough casters to make everyones food, but there are enough to make magic items for all farmers that enhance crop production vastly.) Most crafters are about level five or six in expert by age thirty and a real master of the craft is a level ten and isn't too rare.

A real underachiever may stay level two or three his whole life. Mages are a lot less common then martial classes and level up somewhat slower, but the mages there are typically have higher levels so there is a lot more access to high level spells.

Any full soldier is level five or six, because before that you are not considered combat ready and are still in training. A veteran or good soldier is level seven to nine and may make up thirty percent of an army or so. A level ten, twelve, or fifteen soldier is definitely decorated and powerful but any given platoon probably has one or two. Even at level twenty, a platoon of level fives to twelves, (as opposed to ones to sixes,) is a challenge.

Just give monster races class levels from one to eight to balance them out.

A world where experience is gained faster also helps to alleviate the logistics issue of why a group of adventurers levels up so fast when the rest of the world levels up so slow.

Anyone above level fifteen or sixteen should still be very rare.

[Talbot]

Everybody who's screaming "Tippyverse!" is just being difficult. You're the DM, it's only the Tippyverse if you want it to be. First off, how many of the NPCs are going to be casters? I assume not too many, but let's say half of them are for a worst case scenario. Now, despite what this board will tell you, most people who play casters play them as follows:

Wizard: I shoot fireballs and lightning and I can fly! Yay!

Cleric: I heal stuff and the Undead are collectively my bitch! Yay!

Druid: I can turn into a bear. Yay!.


So, most of your NPC casters aren't going to have Natural Spell or DMM: Persist or Gate... unless you want them to. Sure, a few do, but they're the bad guys; your high-level heroes are there to go stop them from getting into Tippy-esque shenanigans.


In other words: Your idea is fine, as long as you don't go out of your way to make it harder on yourself.

[Chess435]

http://dave.lab6.com/acid/albums/random/syndrome.jpg

"When everyone's super, nobody is."

[Ravens_cry]

http://dave.lab6.com/acid/albums/random/syndrome.jpg

"When everyone's super, nobody is."
Crimson crap on a crooked crutch, I was just going to say this.
But let me explain my feelings further.
Contrast is important. We know this instinctively. It applies visually, a low enough contrast scene is hard to make out, it applies audibly, sounds of all the same volume and pitch is noise, it even applies textually and to taste and scent. Dip your hand in cold water then in lukewarm, than hot and the same lukewarm water. Feel the difference?
Contrast.
It should be no surprise that the same applies to our stories and other acts of creation.
If everyone was as super as Superman, he wouldn't be super, now would he? Even Batman, a human ostensibly without powers, has much more willpower, determination and stamina than the average joe in his stories.
I am not saying the world has to be full of Muggles who are absolutely useless, who then are the heroes? Having them be Chosen Ones™ feels a bit odd when they can die and another Chosen One™ just happens to be in the next town. I also don't like players feeling like they can simply run roughshod over the whole world with no consequences.
But if all the NPC are able to handle the PC in combat, one must ask why they don't handle the bigger threats themselves? There sure is a lot more of them.

[faceroll]

I have a feeling that if you do that, you'll be in for a LOT of bookkeeping. I mean, it's annoying enough to have to come up with a dozen general NPC stat sheets when they're all level one. Just think of how long it'll take to do that for level 10-20... :smalleek:

Other than that, I don't foresee any problems. Just make sure your players know beforehand so they won't be expecting the usual godhood that comes with high levels.

Just use NPCs from splat books. Most example PrC NPCs have at least 8 character classes.


It would be the Tippyverse incarnate - you wouldn't have any farming, for one, everyone would take spellcasting classes (because by level 10, you kind of need to), the society would be completely post-scarcity...

Post scarcity, as in everyone has enough food, but getting soul-raped is very real. It'd be post-scarcity in the same way a william gibson novel is post scarcity.


Crimson crap on a crooked crutch, I was just going to say this.
But let me explain my feelings further.
Contrast is important. We know this instinctively. It applies visually, a low enough contrast scene is hard to make out, it applies audibly, sounds of all the same volume and pitch is noise, it even applies textually and to taste and scent. Dip your hand in cold water then in lukewarm, than hot and the same lukewarm water. Feel the difference?
Contrast.
It should be no surprise that the same applies to our stories and other acts of creation.
If everyone was as super as Superman, he wouldn't be super, now would he? Even Batman, a human ostensibly without powers, has much more willpower, determination and stamina than the average joe in his stories.
I am not saying the world has to be full of Muggles who are absolutely useless, who then are the heroes? Having them be Chosen Ones™ feels a bit odd when they can die and another Chosen One™ just happens to be in the next town. I also don't like players feeling like they can simply run roughshod over the whole world with no consequences.
But if all the NPC are able to handle the PC in combat, one must ask why they don't handle the bigger threats themselves? There sure is a lot more of them.

Meh, level 10 characters aren't really that big a deal if you've ever actually read more than a paragraph of D&D cosmology. Have you read about the infinite planes of demons infinitely more powerful than all the level 1 commoners combined? Level 1 doesn't even make an ounce of sense in anything but an E6 world. Once the PCs hit 10th level, the only reason they'll ever care about a level 3 character is for plot (yay railroads!) or alignment (LG is everyone's favorite alignment, yah right).

[Morph Bark]

How would anyone ever live to get to level 5, let alone level 10?

Why would any NPC bother hiring PCs to do anything?

The ecology would be astoundingly messed-up, but that's pretty normal for D&D....

It's the other way around, everyone who didn't live to level 10 no longer exists, because everyone at some point had 9 negative levels bestowed upon them, turning all the rest into wights, which are now being controlled/destroyed by clerics and paladins all around. :smallwink:

[Yahzi]

Everybody who's screaming "Tippyverse!" is just being difficult. You're the DM, it's only the Tippyverse if you want it to be.
Until your players point out that the village priest can raise the dead and talk directly to his/her god. You can't establish a set of facts about the world, and then just ignore them. Your players won't let you.

Normally, a game starts at the low end, where you kick in doors and roll dice a lot. Then it progresses to the high end, where it's all about talking. My last campaign ended at 10th level with a final session where we utterly defeated the BBEG without touching any dice. High-level magic is like that. Why would you want to deprive your players of the early part of the game?

[Kansaschaser]

When your average hobo on the street can punch tigers to death all day without tiring, crime stops being "stealing someone's handbag" and starts being "stealing people's souls" and "butchering the laws of reality".

Staling souls and bending reality don't happen in my games. I use the rules from Test of Spite for character builds.


Until your players point out that the village priest can raise the dead and talk directly to his/her god. You can't establish a set of facts about the world, and then just ignore them. Your players won't let you.

Normally, a game starts at the low end, where you kick in doors and roll dice a lot. Then it progresses to the high end, where it's all about talking. My last campaign ended at 10th level with a final session where we utterly defeated the BBEG without touching any dice. High-level magic is like that. Why would you want to deprive your players of the early part of the game?

Yeah, that would never happen in my campaign. I've run two epic games before and they've never beat any challenge without rolling dice. I make sure of that.

[DiBastet]

I'm saying there is nothing special about them being level 10 if everyone is 10th level

I guess the world is very special if every peasant is level 10. Not everything is about the players.

[Urpriest]

Staling souls and bending reality don't happen in my games. I use the rules from Test of Spite for character builds.


The Test of Spite banlist I've found via google does not restrict the basic soul-stealing spells (Trap the Soul, Magic Jar), it makes messing with Efreets and the like easier (Planar Binding/Ally targets are permanently present), and reality warping is still present as much as it ever was (Wish still exists, just can't be free, the only thing missing is Genesis). A world full of level 10 NPCs means lots of access to Plane Shift, so you could just send a strike team to kidnap Efreets in the mundane way rather than Planar Binding them if you somehow ban that method. So you are operating in a Wish economy.

[Qwertystop]

...without touching any dice....

How did that happen?

[Anarchy_Kanya]

How did that happen?
Telekinesis, duh. :smallamused:

[SowZ]

How did that happen?

Good planning with spells and the party can solve serious crisis without rolling. Or just cashing in on a lot of favors at once.

[Kansaschaser]

The Test of Spite banlist I've found via google does not restrict the basic soul-stealing spells (Trap the Soul, Magic Jar), it makes messing with Efreets and the like easier (Planar Binding/Ally targets are permanently present), and reality warping is still present as much as it ever was (Wish still exists, just can't be free, the only thing missing is Genesis). A world full of level 10 NPCs means lots of access to Plane Shift, so you could just send a strike team to kidnap Efreets in the mundane way rather than Planar Binding them if you somehow ban that method. So you are operating in a Wish economy.

I'm not sure how Trap the Soul or Magic Jar are overpowered. There would be a lot of people that can cast both spells, and an even greater number of people that could save against the spells or counter them.

DM fiat will prevent the players and NPC's from even finding an Efreet, let alone capturing one.

Even Wish has it's limitations. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by a "Wish economy". The economy I use is based on copper, silver, gold, platinum, and precious gems. In the Test of Spite rules, there is no Wish spells. Wish has been replaced in all ways by Miracle.

[Daedroth]

If monsters are limited by ECL rather than CR then you won't see many high level monsters. For example, a Troll is going to start out with no levels, so all trolls in the world begin at CR 5, easy pickings for the level 10 NPCs.



No with my logic, in my logic if all npc are level 10 monsters with intelligence of at leat 10 too. A troll will be a CR 15 NPC, a troll with 10 class level.

[NNescio]

Good planning with spells and the party can solve serious crisis without rolling. Or just cashing in on a lot of favors at once.

The lack of initiative rolls means they were not involved in direct combat at all. Which is not completely impossible (through proxies, for example), but unlikely. At least in most campaigns.


No with my logic, in my logic if all npc are level 10 monsters with intelligence of at leat 10 too. A troll will be a CR 15 NPC, a troll with 10 class level.

I hope you don't use ethergaunts.

[NichG]

If everyone is level 10+, I think its important to have a why, or at least have the setting reflect that fact. If its just an invisible 'random people are much more buff' thing that only shows up when the PCs get into combat, it just feels forced.

On the other hand, an example where this is integrated into the setting: Harry Potter is a world where pretty much all (relevant) adults are at least level 10. Teleport is taught as standard curriculum in highschool, which means that graduating students are at least level 9 wizards.


As far as Tippyverse/etc, thats always a consequence of mechanics-are-king applied to a world containing at least one high level wizard. If everyone is high level, it doesn't really make it more or less applicable. If fluff has teeth, you can explain why you don't get a Tippyverse:


-No, traps cannot be made that cast Create Food and Water, because trap making is a special discipline and cannot incorporate just any spell you like;

-No, Efreet can't be compelled to grant wishes without screwing you over, even if they like you - its the curse placed on them when long in the past the first Efreet was an adventurer who wished for infinite wishes.

-Solars won't do it either, and they have the power to ignore Gate due to the protection of their divine sponsor.

-Not all souls are allowed to be raised. Sometimes they must be wrested from the grasp of a jealous realm, sometimes from the arms of a god. Or perhaps the afterlife is such a transcendent experience that very few people want to return from it, like being addicted to a drug.

[Talbot]

Until your players point out that the village priest can raise the dead and talk directly to his/her god. You can't establish a set of facts about the world, and then just ignore them. Your players won't let you.




*sigh* I hate this kind of thinking. Priest =/= Cleric. There's no reason a local priest has to have levels in Cleric. His levels could be in Commoner, or Expert, or (going with the idea that there are no NPC classes suggested above), Monk or Fighter or Healer or Factotum or Bard or...

[Urpriest]

I'm not sure how Trap the Soul or Magic Jar are overpowered. There would be a lot of people that can cast both spells, and an even greater number of people that could save against the spells or counter them.

DM fiat will prevent the players and NPC's from even finding an Efreet, let alone capturing one.

Even Wish has it's limitations. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by a "Wish economy". The economy I use is based on copper, silver, gold, platinum, and precious gems. In the Test of Spite rules, there is no Wish spells. Wish has been replaced in all ways by Miracle.

Trap the Soul and Magic Jar aren't overpowered in the least. They are, however, ways that people can have their souls stolen, which you denied was a more common threat in your world.

DM fiat doesn't appear to be on the ToS banlist, and if NPCs are unable to find Efreets, then Efreets have awfully difficult lives, being NPCs themselves with significant trade interests. Also, again, Planar Binding. Also, DM fiat is irrelevant to this question anyway: the whole point of this thread is that you're asking what kind of world gets created by this houserule. If you use fiat on this sort of thing then you're specifying a specific world, so the question is moot. If this thread makes any kind of internal sense you aren't using fiat for NPCs.

1. I don't see that anywhere in the rules I was able to find, could you link the ToS banlist you're referring to? In general, if those of us on this thread don't know your houserules we won't give a decent answer to your question.

2. Wish Economy refers to a world in which Wishes can be gotten for free (for example, one in which most adult Wizards can use Planar Binding), and as such where items less than 25,000gp in cost are easy to acquire. Miracle can't explicitly make items like that, so you don't get quite the same effect, but it's certainly within the bounds of its abilities if used creatively.


No with my logic, in my logic if all npc are level 10 monsters with intelligence of at leat 10 too. A troll will be a CR 15 NPC, a troll with 10 class level.

Your logic is irrelevant, the OP says they're limited by ECL.


*sigh* I hate this kind of thinking. Priest =/= Cleric. There's no reason a local priest has to have levels in Cleric. His levels could be in Commoner, or Expert, or (going with the idea that there are no NPC classes suggested above), Monk or Fighter or Healer or Factotum or Bard or...

Healer can still raise the dead. While some of the other options are certainly plausible, it can also be argued the other way: a Farmer need not be someone without magic, they could be a Cleric as well. Base classes have no prerequisites, so it's just a matter of what people decide to be, and certainly some of them will want to be Clerics.

[Kansaschaser]

Trap the Soul and Magic Jar aren't overpowered in the least. They are, however, ways that people can have their souls stolen, which you denied was a more common threat in your world.

DM fiat doesn't appear to be on the ToS banlist, and if NPCs are unable to find Efreets, then Efreets have awfully difficult lives, being NPCs themselves with significant trade interests. Also, again, Planar Binding. Also, DM fiat is irrelevant to this question anyway: the whole point of this thread is that you're asking what kind of world gets created by this houserule. If you use fiat on this sort of thing then you're specifying a specific world, so the question is moot. If this thread makes any kind of internal sense you aren't using fiat for NPCs.

1. I don't see that anywhere in the rules I was able to find, could you link the ToS banlist you're referring to? In general, if those of us on this thread don't know your houserules we won't give a decent answer to your question.

2. Wish Economy refers to a world in which Wishes can be gotten for free (for example, one in which most adult Wizards can use Planar Binding), and as such where items less than 25,000gp in cost are easy to acquire. Miracle can't explicitly make items like that, so you don't get quite the same effect, but it's certainly within the bounds of its abilities if used creatively.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150821&highlight=test+spite

You'll see under the second post the 3.51 Fix and Ban list.

Under the Spells, Spell-Like Abilities, Maneuvers, and Powers section...

Wish is replaced in all ways by Miracle.

AND

There are no free Wishes.

So, there is no "Wish Economy". The economy is still based on precious metals and gems.

[Tyndmyr]

I am assuming...levels start at 10, and distribute upwards from there. Therefore, a level 13 person is about as common in this world as a level 4 person in a normal world.

The vast majority of people are NPC classes, but a subset(perhaps 5%) have PC classes. This is, again, similar to city creation rules.

Results:

Adept is an NPC class. Even the lowliest adept starts out knowing how to remove curses, disease, poisons, etc. Polymorph and raise dead are common. Therefore, this is a world without plagues. Without diseases.

Each of them can purify food and drink, create water, etc. A single baby adept can get 20 gallons of water per cast as a cantrip. There is no reason to ever dig a well for anything.

Each of them has mending as a cantrip. There is no longer a need for mundane repair of anything, ever. This leads to a world in which wealth is extremely easy to maintain.

At level 12(so, as common as a 3rd level adept in a normal world), they get minor creation. Major creation happens a bit later. There is no longer any need to seek out materials for anything temporary. This further increases the average wealth level.

Every adept can also animate dead. So...a free workforce, if they wish. For whatever.

Adepts will form the core of society. Under them is the commoners, and essentially everyone else who drew an NPC class without useful things. They will presumably serve as servants to the Adepts in some fashion...though it's likely that the ratio is such, and magic accomplishes so much that each will have a great deal of leisure time. Expect an entertainment industry to flourish.

Above the adepts are the spellcasting PC classes, along with the oddball character here and there who had a good non spellcasting class. Primary spellcasters have level 5 spells from the get go, and almost immediately hit level 6. They will live in a grand fashion, being almost unassailable by anyone without magic. Whichever of them chooses to pursue power will be the rulers of areas.

Note also that some classes, like wizard and archivist, in fluff, attain their classes by study. As the population becomes more wealthy, has more time, and more means....wizarding schools and the like are almost certain to become common, with most people having the ability to learn to cast(a sufficiently high mental stat) attending one. So...basically half the world will eventually become magical. Possibly more so.

Yeah, it's a tippyverse. Perhaps not full on wish economy(though one will exist among the very top tier individuals), or mindrape ruling everything....but dominate person is a 5th level spell. Even the newest of wizards knows it. At least some are bound to pursue this route to power.

[Urpriest]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150821&highlight=test+spite

You'll see under the second post the 3.51 Fix and Ban list.

Under the Spells, Spell-Like Abilities, Maneuvers, and Powers section...

Wish is replaced in all ways by Miracle.

AND

There are no free Wishes.

So, there is no "Wish Economy". The economy is still based on precious metals and gems.

Ah ok, this list is more complete. While I wouldn't call kidnapping an Efreet using mundane means a free enterprise, it certainly falls within the RAI of "no free Wishes".

As other mentioned, you still won't get a traditional economy, since you're living in what is in many ways a post-scarcity world. That said, you aren't quite in Wish Economy territory.

Also, any word on the extermination of most monsters? Are you going to change monster starting levels to CR-based for NPCs, or are they sticking at ECL?

[Kansaschaser]

Also, any word on the extermination of most monsters? Are you going to change monster starting levels to CR-based for NPCs, or are they sticking at ECL?

Yes, monsters would be increased in power also. Either the ECL will be raised to a minimum of 10 or the hit dice will increase by 10. I haven't decided yet.

So there are no goblins with only 8 hit points.

As for the players kidnapping an Efreet and forcing it to cast Wish for them, then they would have to pay for it as normal. I will strictly enforce the "There are no free wishes" rule.

[Legendairy]

Why not just say start in like Planescape, Sigil? Level 10 would be considered low level.

[Kansaschaser]

Why not just say start in like Planescape, Sigil? Level 10 would be considered low level.

That's a good idea. I'll probably do that. We will be going into epic, so Sigil would be a good starting point.

[NichG]

So it depends if you want Sigil to just be 'planar city' or are going to use the full set of fluff and resources for it. As it has been represented over the various editions, Sigil is somewhat dependent on people being low level for a lot of its character. Places like the Hive don't make sense in a 'everyone is Lv10+ with a PC class' world, since people live in the Hive because they've got almost nothing to their name, and can't afford basic necessities of life so they have to take their chances with random portals to the plane of Ooze, receiving a handful of coppers for signing away their corpse to the undead work force after death, etc.

Even the Lower Ward is extremely undesirable with the Foundry nearby belching out smoke (that at least would persist, though it'd be a mockery of sorts, since the faction holding it does manual labor because they believe it betters the soul, not because the things the foundry makes are actually needed).

You'd probably have to come up with another reason for why the Hive sucks so much, etc. Maybe the Hive is a quarantine zone for those with magical diseases that are resistant to Remove Disease (Lycanthropy, Vampirism, etc)? People are thrown in there if they're suspected of carrying it, and you need a clean bill of health to leave granted by one of the Hive's shady and highly bribable doctors?

[Kansaschaser]

So it depends if you want Sigil to just be 'planar city' or are going to use the full set of fluff and resources for it. As it has been represented over the various editions, Sigil is somewhat dependent on people being low level for a lot of its character. Places like the Hive don't make sense in a 'everyone is Lv10+ with a PC class' world, since people live in the Hive because they've got almost nothing to their name, and can't afford basic necessities of life so they have to take their chances with random portals to the plane of Ooze, receiving a handful of coppers for signing away their corpse to the undead work force after death, etc.

Even the Lower Ward is extremely undesirable with the Foundry nearby belching out smoke (that at least would persist, though it'd be a mockery of sorts, since the faction holding it does manual labor because they believe it betters the soul, not because the things the foundry makes are actually needed).

You'd probably have to come up with another reason for why the Hive sucks so much, etc. Maybe the Hive is a quarantine zone for those with magical diseases that are resistant to Remove Disease (Lycanthropy, Vampirism, etc)? People are thrown in there if they're suspected of carrying it, and you need a clean bill of health to leave granted by one of the Hive's shady and highly bribable doctors?

Other than reading a few paragraphs about Sigil in the Epic level handbook, I really didn't know that much about the city. I didn't know about the Hive. Maybe I'll just occlude the Hive from Sigil.

[Toliudar]

If you want an epic star-spanning quality in which everyone has significant levels of personal power, you might look at the Culture novels of Iain M. Banks (http://www.iain-banks.net/), for a post-scarcity universe that still has challenges, threats and catastrophes.

Role-play and civility become more important than ever. When the general populace has fifty ways to mess up even reasonably powerful PC's, learning not to cause a disturbance is even more important.

[Big Fau]

So you are basically re-inventing the Forgotten Realms, gotcha.


Have fun with that.

[KoboldCleric]

Assuming most NPCs still get the 11,11,11,10,10,10 array, most people still can't cast spells above 3rd level. At level 12 they get 4ths, 16 they get 5ths, and 20 they get 6ths. That actually sounds like a moderately balanced casting progression to me.

Honestly I don't think this would change all that much. People would still have the same sorts of personalities, social and political hierarchies would still form, there would be people with and people without. We have more than enough resources to feed everyone in this world and still people starve, we have the ability to cure o control a great number of diseases that still ravage parts of this world, racism and biggotry are still rampant despite all evidence against their soundness; why would d&d world be any different?

[Talbot]

Healer can still raise the dead. While some of the other options are certainly plausible, it can also be argued the other way: a Farmer need not be someone without magic, they could be a Cleric as well. Base classes have no prerequisites, so it's just a matter of what people decide to be, and certainly some of them will want to be Clerics.

Ok, so I'm wrong about Healer. Not really the point. As for the bigger point, I don't necessarily agree that just because any PC can be a Cleric, any person in the universe can; PCs by nature are special. The NPCs have the classes the DM gives them, so if none of the farmers are Clerics, then none of the farmers are Clerics.

Looking at it another way, let's say every NPC is aware of the metagame construct of "classes". They shouldn't be, but let's just indulge the idea; they still need the sort of stats to make it count. It doesn't really matter if your level 11 NPC is a Cleric if his Wisdom is only 11.

Now, yes, there is a problem if the DM decides all the NPCs have Elite Array stats and take the best classes (and, hey, while we're at it, they all optimize, too). But something tells me he probably isn't going to do that.

[Daedroth]

Yes, monsters would be increased in power also. Either the ECL will be raised to a minimum of 10 or the hit dice will increase by 10. I haven't decided yet.



Increase by 10 is fairer, trolls are supossed to be far stronger than goblins.




I hope you don't use ethergaunts.

Nop, but usually my NPC don't have too many class levels if is not for a good reason (If i want a more powerful NPC I use a more powerful race)

[Flickerdart]

Assuming most NPCs still get the 11,11,11,10,10,10 array, most people still can't cast spells above 3rd level. At level 12 they get 4ths, 16 they get 5ths, and 20 they get 6ths. That actually sounds like a moderately balanced casting progression to me.
11 base Intelligence, +2 at 4th and 8th. You have enough wealth for a +2 item at least - if you decide to live in Rope Tricks, you can buy a +4 using all your NPC wealth. So you're casting 5th level spells which, surprise, are the only kind you have. At 12th, you gain 6th levels, and can probably make the cash for a +4 item if you didn't have it before. Now you're set for 7th level spells, which holds you over until level 15 when you can easily plop down the 36k you need for a +6 item. At 20th level, a +5 Tome becomes part of your repertoire, leaving you with a pretty solid 27 Intelligence.

And that's just for humans. Fire/Gray Elves have it way better.

[Rixx]

What if there were no NPC's from level 1-9? What if the lowest level NPC out there was level 10 and it only went up from there? The lowest level monsters would be ECL 10 or higher too. What would be the ramifications?

Also, what if there were no NPC classes and all the NPC's had normal player classes? No Commoners, no Adepts, no Experts, etc...

Then you'd be in the game I currently play in sometimes. We're level 2.

Don't do it.

[Yahzi]

How did that happen?
As usual, with a helping hand from the 2E Tomb of Horrors.

Here's the setup: for several adventures our ultimate nemesis was a 14th level Cleric. He was of the same pantheon (Norse) as my character, although of evil god (those were the days, eh?). By 10th level the conflict broke out into the open, and we laid siege to his fortress.

The DM spent two weeks constructing a "hall of death" (his term), lined with traps and monsters. The idea was that our 10th level party, backed up by our personal army of minions, would slog our way through to finally confront the evil cleric and his 14th level magic-user wife.

When the session began, I sent in an emissary. The coming battle promised to be quite destructive to both sides, and since I was Good, it made sense that I would try to negotiate a non-violent settlement. The message I sent asked the cleric to come to a neutral location for the negotiation.

Now, he's not a fool: he's wary of a trap. So my character promised that if the cleric wasn't happy with the negotiations, we would return him to his lair and make everything exactly like it was before, upon penalty of surrendering my soul.

The DM's a smart guy: his evil NPC is going to find something, anything to object to. He doesn't even bother to warn me that my character can't lie; we both already know that. I can see it in his eyes: he knows I've got something up my sleeve, but he just can't guess what it is. But the prize is too great: he has a chance to utterly destroy my character with no way for me to complain about it! (This is the character that killed a dragon at 1st level, so you can see how the DM is hankering to take him down a peg.)

Finally he snaps and takes the deal. The cleric comes out, warily. We teleport him to an undisclosed location and point to a curtained doorway. I say, "Odin is waiting for you behind that door, and he will make you an offer you will find acceptable."

The DM is understandably dubious. This isn't some NPC hireling, it's one of the elder gods! How can I be telling the DM what a god is going to do? So he walks through the dooorway.

Well, some time ago we had thrashed through Tomb of Horrors. And in ToH, there's a doorway that changes your sex and your alignment if you walk through it. No save, of course - this is ToH. We prepared the spot first, to look like a meeting room, cleaned up a bit and hung a nice curtain and such. So the evil cleric walks through the door with the undetectable trap (thanks, ToH!) and finds himself a herself, with the wrong alignment to use those juicy 14 class levels of cleric.

Meanwhile, I cast Commune and tell Odin, "There's a 14th level cleric of the Norse pantheon here who needs a new patron to go with her new alignment."

The thing is, the text in ToH specifically states the character will not want his alignment changed back. So the DM is cooked; the cleric cannot ask for us to undo this change! And why wouldn't Odin want to snap up a 14th level priest?

When the cleric comes out of the room, now a senior member of my own religion, I drop to my knee and say, "Now what, boss?" That act of self-abnegation, of surrendering to the authority of the highest level cleric of my own faith in realm, undid the DM. He just hand-waved the part where we lured the cleric's wife out and tossed her through the same door, thus restoring their happy marriage and bringing peace and joy to the realm.

Sadly, it also broke the DM. He never ran a campaign for us again. :smalleek: But as you can see, at no point did we ever need to roll the dice. The teleport was safe (location was well-known to us) and the magic attack had no save. And honestly, once you have access to high level magic, every session should end that way. Taking chances is for suckers; wizards and clerics are smarter than that.



*sigh* I hate this kind of thinking. Priest =/= Cleric. There's no reason a local priest has to have levels in Cleric. His levels could be in Commoner, or Expert, or (going with the idea that there are no NPC classes suggested above), Monk or Fighter or Healer or Factotum or Bard or...
There is fair room to argue that classes don't equal profession in a lot of cases... but priest? Seriously? Why would anyone ever dedicate their life to serving a god but not take levels in cleric? I mean, cleric means priest.

Of course the village priest can dispense the bounty of his god. That's his job. To say otherwise is like saying the village wizard can't cast spells, the guard captain can't fight, the wandering minstrel can't sing, play, or act, the local expert has no skill points in the subject and can't read.

In the D&D world, priest is not a profession indistinguishable from all other professions. The same skills that make you a lawyer, counselor, doctor, or politician do not make you a priest. Being charged with the power of your god is what makes you a priest. Pretty much independent of what you actually spend your time doing (a priest could be a warrior, judge, craftsman, healer, or prophet, rather than a merely running a church).

But a world in which the village priest has 10 level of Fighter and no levels of Cleric is for comedic purposes only.

[Kansaschaser]

In most game settings, you have mostly Commoners, then Experts, Warriors, Adepts, and Aristocrats.

I normally have about...
80% Commoners
9% Experts
5% Warriors
3% Adepts
3% Aristocrats

I think what I'll do is convert these classes into the Tier system for my NPC's.

So I will have...
80% Tier 5
9% Tier 4
5% Tier 3
3% Tier 2
3% Tier 1

That way, there won't be an overabundance of Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and Archivists.

[Kansaschaser]

In most game settings, you have mostly Commoners, then Experts, Warriors, Adepts, and Aristocrats.

I normally have about...
80% Commoners
9% Experts
5% Warriors
3% Adepts
3% Aristocrats

I think what I'll do is convert these classes into the Tier system for my NPC's.

So I will have...
80% Tier 5
9% Tier 4
5% Tier 3
3% Tier 2
3% Tier 1

That way, there won't be an overabundance of Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and Archivists.

[Kansaschaser]

In most game settings, you have mostly Commoners, then Experts, Warriors, Adepts, and Aristocrats.

I normally have about...
80% Commoners
9% Experts
5% Warriors
3% Adepts
3% Aristocrats

I think what I'll do is convert these classes into the Tier system for my NPC's.

So I will have...
80% Tier 5
9% Tier 4
5% Tier 3
3% Tier 2
3% Tier 1

That way, there won't be an overabundance of Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and Archivists.

[Urpriest]

That sounds reasonable, but note that because of Healers (not to mention Adepts, Shujenja, and the like) it's still quite likely that the village priest can raise the dead and cure most ailments.

[Kansaschaser]

That sounds reasonable, but note that because of Healers (not to mention Adepts, Shujenja, and the like) it's still quite likely that the village priest can raise the dead and cure most ailments.

Yes, I'm perfectly fine with that. I think the PC's and NPC's should have access to decent health care while inside the confines of a city.

[Flickerdart]

Take a global population of, say, a hundred million people. In the whole world (about what Earth's was in 500 BC). Extremely low for a world where poverty, hunger and disease doesn't exist, but maybe having ultimate cosmic might plays a number on your libido.

3% of a hundred million is 3 million. Assuming an even split between Artificers, Wizards, Druids, Clerics and Archivists, that means that there are about 600,000 of each class. This is not exactly a small number, especially factoring in their exceptional mobility through Teleport and the like. If you need the services of one, they are easy to find, and if you incur one's wrath, they will have friends of a similar power level.

Once you double that number to account for T2s, you get 6 million people, each of whom, by the Tier's definition, can break the world. 3% of a global population is not a small number. Against today's population, 6% is around 406 million people. That's nearly as many people as all of North America combined.

[Gralamin]

In most game settings, you have mostly Commoners, then Experts, Warriors, Adepts, and Aristocrats.

I normally have about...
80% Commoners
9% Experts
5% Warriors
3% Adepts
3% Aristocrats

I think what I'll do is convert these classes into the Tier system for my NPC's.

So I will have...
80% Tier 5
9% Tier 4
5% Tier 3
3% Tier 2
3% Tier 1

That way, there won't be an overabundance of Wizards, Clerics, Druids, and Archivists.

3% Tier 1? That's... Still quite a lot of Tier 1. In a city of 1000 people, there are 30 people pretty much capable of taking over the city on their own :P

[Arang]

In the end, though, you have to consider how small a town should have, say, True Ressurection available, because a world can be surprisingly high-magic and still have zero places where an over-the-counter TR makes sense.

[Urpriest]

Take a global population of, say, a hundred million people. In the whole world (about what Earth's was in 500 BC). Extremely low for a world where poverty, hunger and disease doesn't exist, but maybe having ultimate cosmic might plays a number on your libido.

3% of a hundred million is 3 million. Assuming an even split between Artificers, Wizards, Druids, Clerics and Archivists, that means that there are about 600,000 of each class. This is not exactly a small number, especially factoring in their exceptional mobility through Teleport and the like. If you need the services of one, they are easy to find, and if you incur one's wrath, they will have friends of a similar power level.

Once you double that number to account for T2s, you get 6 million people, each of whom, by the Tier's definition, can break the world. 3% of a global population is not a small number. Against today's population, 6% is around 406 million people. That's nearly as many people as all of North America combined.

It may be just a city though.

For the OP: why not set this in Union (Epic Level Handbook)? Unlike Sigil, it's a brand new city, so it doesn't have the same built-up underclass, and it has much less prior fluff constraining your choices. It's pretty much impossible to get there without planar travel, so level 10 actually makes sense as a minimum NPC level for in-game reasons as well. And it's got a bunch of established epic plots.

[Flickerdart]

It may be just a city though.
That just means that instead of being scattered throughout the world, all the godlike beings are gathered together on a couple square miles of dirt. A city with a modest population of a hundred thousand still has 6,000 of these guys.
From a surface Google search, 60 square feet seems to be a fairly extravagant amount of living space to afford per person, historically. So this 100,000-person city would have an area of 6 million square feet. Distributing our T2+ NPCs evenly, we get one T2+ NPC per 1,000 square feet. This means that a square with a T2+ NPC at each point would only be 31 feet to a side. Within one round, you could walk from one Sorcerer's residence to the next one's.
Let's go ahead and multiply that number by 16 - maybe everyone lives in roomy halls of a thousand square feet per each person. That gives us a city area of one billion square feet, with 166,666 square feet per every T2+, or 408 feet to a side. That means that, at a 20ft per round movement rate, even a heavily armoured man or a halfling could walk from one T2 to the other in two minutes.
And this is assuming that nobody invented that marvellous thing known as a two-story building, or basements.