were-polar bear alignment (and other questions)

[Sir_Chivalry]

I have an npc in my current game who is a were-dire polar bear, and I am trying to decide what alignment a were-polar bear (and a were-dire polar bear) would be. Now the monster manual tells us too things, one, that the alignment of lycanthropes is based on popular opinion of the animal variety (wolves are evil, rats are evil, tigers and boars are less evil, bears are good for some reason), and two, that werebears of the brown bear variety are LG.

So I come to an issue. Would you say that polar bears, being the hard carnivores they are as opposed to the brown and black bear's omnivorous nature, would qualify for a more evil alignment?

Also, any tips for playing her? Personality quirks to add or some such?

[Coidzor]

No. Carnivorousness is not whether an animal is evil or not if you have lycanthropy related to it.

An animal is evil or not based upon its perception in popular culture. Though I never really saw any indication that popular culture thought wolves were evil, myself...

So, considering how polar bears are viewed as the most awesome form of bear, generally... Well, I'd posit Exalted LG, but Exalted status is mostly just bad for your health. I'd say pick a G and run with it.

Anyway, the alignment system is Good - Neutral - Evil, not Good - Less Evil - More Evil.

[pffh]

Chaotic Evil. Why you ask because they are among the few species in the world that kill just because they can.

[Keld Denar]

Lots of animals kill because they can. Raccoons and foxes, for instance, will often times slaughter every chicken in a coop, even if they can only physically eat one. Polar bears, however, have been known to stalk people for 50 miles before attacking. Thats different from a cougar pouncing on a jogger because they are there...thats "I feel like eating a person today, I should go down to the trail where people sometimes are and see what my nose tells me is on the menu."

That said, the polar bear in the Nissan Leaf commercial is definitely Lawful Good, and the ones in the Coke comercials are D'awwful Cute.

[Sir_Chivalry]

No. Carnivorousness is not whether an animal is evil or not if you have lycanthropy related to it.

An animal is evil or not based upon its perception in popular culture. Though I never really saw any indication that popular culture thought wolves were evil, myself...

So, considering how polar bears are viewed as the most awesome form of bear, generally... Well, I'd posit Exalted LG, but Exalted status is mostly just bad for your health. I'd say pick a G and run with it.

Anyway, the alignment system is Good - Neutral - Evil, not Good - Less Evil - More Evil.

With the number of fiends versus the number of celestials that have a bear form, let alone a polar bear form, that would definitely favour your answer. As for your "wolf=evil", I'd point to the Grimms and others like them, along with the general distrust of wolves pre-20th century among the european populace.

As for the alignment thing, I was merely trying to express confusion as to how a wolf and rat are evil, yet a tiger is not.


Chaotic Evil. Why you ask because they are among the few species in the world that kill just because they can.

Hrmm, polar opposite, we shall have to see what others say.

[Greenish]

Though I never really saw any indication that popular culture thought wolves were evil, myself...It's a bit older opinion, though it's not that rare on more rural areas where you might run into them. Sometimes blamed for preying on reindeer, sheep, etc. Sometimes with reason.

Anyhow, since bears are LG, white bears are even more so, since Light is Good and Beauty equals Goodness. The lycanthrope alignment has preciously little to do with how the actual animals behave.

[Dekion]

I believe that the intent of the "were-bear" was not made to specify that it was a were-brown bear, even though the brown bear is the example given. The description text in the MM states, "They may have reddish, blonde, ivory, or black hair, matching the color of the ursine form." I believe that a were-polar bear would have ivory hair, and I doubt that a were-brown bear would.

[Hirax]

They should probably be of good alignment. Heed the Klondike bar!

[Zale]

Chaotic Evil. Why you ask because they are among the few species in the world that kill just because they can.

Then Dolphins are Chaotic Evil to. :smallwink:

And I'll add my voice to the chorus of "Pick anything with a G and run with it."

[Lord Vampyre]

I have to say that in my campaign that all lycanthropes that are afflicted with the lycanthropy disease are CE. This is because the actual disease causes an uncontrollable blood thirsty behavior.

Now, the lycanthropes who are not afflicted with the disease, but are natural born lycanthropes, are treated as if they were a PC race. Meaning that natural born lycanthropes could be of any alignment.

As for popular opinion, Polar Bears should either be LG or NG. The white fur and larger size makes them more pure than the other bears.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Then Dolphins are Chaotic Evil to. :smallwink:

And I'll add my voice to the chorus of "Pick anything with a G and run with it."

I agree that dolphins are CE. Gang-rapists of the ocean among other things.

The concensus saddens me, but I can see the logic. The issue is said npc is a major villain, a brute if any of you know tropes, and though being good is not outside possibility (I'm up for a challenge), her status within the villain group as well as being the lover to the dark chick (a warlock who specializes in unarmed fighting) might make this difficult. Not the thread topic persay, but any adivice?

[Keld Denar]

You are the DM? Make it happen. There are plenty of exceptions to the rules. Angels who fall, reascend, and fall again, Drow who are good, Dwarves who don't like mines or gold, Kobolds who are paladins, evil dragons who are self-less.

Just roll with it. Evil polar bear is evil.

Heck, the MM even comes out and says that the "always" alignment descriptor is only like, 95% accurate.

[Sir_Chivalry]

You are the DM? Make it happen. There are plenty of exceptions to the rules. Angels who fall, reascend, and fall again, Drow who are good, Dwarves who don't like mines or gold, Kobolds who are paladins, evil dragons who are self-less.

Just roll with it. Evil polar bear is evil.

Heck, the MM even comes out and says that the "always" alignment descriptor is only like, 95% accurate.

But assuming hybrid form resets alignment automatically to the alignment of the lycanthrope. One of my players suggested a CN alignment.

P.S. Totally willing to screw the rules, just having a thought exercise here. It might be more interesting, come to think of it, to have were-bears of all kinds be LG, and she has broken the pattern, and has a small den of aflicted werebears of a more evil alignment.

P.S.S For that matter, on the subject of dolphins, what would you guys rule on the alignment of a were-whale? Does baleen or cachalot matter? Were-porpoise/dolphin? Were-orca? If you feel the overwhelming need to post pics, spoiler them and put a note please. Horrible phobia right here.

[flabort]

Having both watched The Golden Compass, and read all three books in the series, I believe a were-polar bear should be either LN or NG. not LG, not TN. In fact, LN. Just LN.
Because one of the villains was a polar bear, and one of the good guys was. And all of them held the law to the fullest extent. They followed their leader, no matter what he was like (Nasty tyrant or noble ruler).

Now, obviously that's not the only source for alignments, but considering how epic they made bears in that movie.... That's the source I'd go with :smallcool:.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Having both watched The Golden Compass, and read all three books in the series, I believe a were-polar bear should be either LN or NG. not LG, not TN. In fact, LN. Just LN.
Because one of the villains was a polar bear, and one of the good guys was. And all of them held the law to the fullest extent. They followed their leader, no matter what he was like (Nasty tyrant or noble ruler).

Now, obviously that's not the only source for alignments, but considering how epic they made bears in that movie.... That's the source I'd go with :smallcool:.

Don't like the movie, love the polar bear plot.

[awa]

polar bear are one of the few animals that will kill a human unprovoked, so i would put them as evil

[nyarlathotep]

P.S.S For that matter, on the subject of dolphins, what would you guys rule on the alignment of a were-whale? Does baleen or cachalot matter? Were-porpoise/dolphin? Were-orca? If you feel the overwhelming need to post pics, spoiler them and put a note please. Horrible phobia right here.

Orcas are in my opinion about as evil as wolves are. Specifically hunting difficult creatures for the enjoyment and taste rather than out of need, so not really evil but kind of jerks. Remember orcas are closer to dolphins than to actual whales, being a really big species of porpoise.

Sperm whales I'd say would be TN or LN due to a close knit pod structure that works quite well together at defending children. Possibly NG or LG if you feel like being generous with the morality of defending your our children.

Baleen whales of all types would be TN or NG depending on how you'd treat just staying by yourself and not bothering anyone. Basically the same alignment you'd give a werecow.

[Togath]

I would say neutral or neutral good for polar bears, either that or an alignment of any, for the whales, neutral or lawful neutral seems right to me, as the bigger ones mostly just swim through the ocean eating, excluding sperm whales who diet largely consists of giant and colossal squid, not sure what those would be.

In general though, I'm usually in favor of either neutral good, neutral, or any as alignments for humanoid races, mainly because it's harder to argue that they are being played(either as a player race, or by the dm) "against their alignment".

[Alleran]

So, considering how polar bears are viewed as the most awesome form of bear, generally... Well, I'd posit Exalted LG, but Exalted status is mostly just bad for your health. I'd say pick a G and run with it.
Wouldn't the most awesome form of bear be either a dire bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBear.htm) or legendary bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/legendaryAnimal.htm)?

[flabort]

Wouldn't the most awesome form of bear be either a dire bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/direBear.htm) or legendary bear (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/legendaryAnimal.htm)?

No... The most awesome form of bear, as the rules allow for, would be a Paragon Legendary Bear.
If we could dissect Legendary into a Template, and used the Tome of Horror (right book?) Dire Template then the most awesome form of bear would be a Paragon Legendary Dire Polar Bear.

Yes, I know.
It rocks.
(although applying lycanthrope to THAT would be a terrifying rules headache)

[Sir_Chivalry]

No... The most awesome form of bear, as the rules allow for, would be a Paragon Legendary Bear.
If we could dissect Legendary into a Template, and used the Tome of Horror (right book?) Dire Template then the most awesome form of bear would be a Paragon Legendary Dire Polar Bear.

Yes, I know.
It rocks.
(although applying lycanthrope to THAT would be a terrifying rules headache)

Not really. Lycanthrope's CR adjustment is based on HD.

[dspeyer]

I'd say LN. Just my feeling from watching polar bears at zoos. A regal sort of dignity.

[Alleran]

If we could dissect Legendary into a Template, and used the Tome of Horror (right book?) Dire Template then the most awesome form of bear would be a Paragon Legendary Dire Polar Bear.
Could you put Monster of Legend on top of that?

[Greenish]

P.S.S For that matter, on the subject of dolphins, what would you guys rule on the alignment of a were-whale? Does baleen or cachalot matter? Were-porpoise/dolphin? Were-orca? If you feel the overwhelming need to post pics, spoiler them and put a note please. Horrible phobia right here.Baleen whales are sorta NG. They just hum and eat plankton all day. They're hippies.

Cachalot are always Chaotic Evil and should be killed on sight, just ask Cpt. Nemo.

Dolphin and porpoise have good reputation, bringing luck, rescuing drowning people. CG, maybe.


Could you put Monster of Legend on top of that?While were at it, I'm shocked you haven't already applied Horrid.

[Dimers]

In terms of popular perception, I'd say "any Good". In terms of how they act compared to other animals, "Chaotic Evil meany-head jerks" (though the actual difference from other big carnivores is, like, 5%).

Dolphins: they use some pretty nasty tactics at times, which in D&D qualifies them as Evil. Their intentions seem pretty Good overall (they help critters they don't know), but D&D rules are pretty clear about actions making the difference.

Whales: if they eat squid, they're probably Good. Squid are Evil in pop culture due to some classic Japanese oni, stories of kraken, 20000 Leagues Under The Sea, and more.

[nyarlathotep]

Cachalot are always Chaotic Evil and should be killed on sight, just ask Cpt. Nemo.

You mean Ahab right?



Dolphins: they use some pretty nasty tactics at times, which in D&D qualifies them as Evil. Their intentions seem pretty Good overall (they help critters they don't know), but D&D rules are pretty clear about actions making the difference.


From what I've heard it's less protecting other animals and more finding the predators they attract more fun to kill.

[panaikhan]

How about a bi-polar were polar-bear?

[hamishspence]

You mean Ahab right?

In 20,000 Leagues under the Sea, Nemo, while disapproving of the hunting of baleen whales, has no qualms about hunting cachalot whales- considering them vicious killers.

So, both would fit.

[Greenish]

You mean Ahab right?No, I mean Nemo, the captain of Nautilus in Jules Verne's 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. :smallannoyed:

Listen to the man:
"Those are cachalots--terrible animals, which I have met in troops of two or three hundred. As to those, they are cruel, mischievous creatures; [the fishermen] would be right in exterminating them."
…
"We will show you something you have never yet seen. We have no pity for these ferocious creatures. They are nothing but mouth and teeth."
…
"It is a massacre of mischievous creatures," replied the Captain; "and the Nautilus is not a butcher's knife."

[Andorax]

Were-Polars should be NG/LG...popular culture/iconography has already been cited to this effect.

Need to make it evil, but find that "just 'cause" isn't good enough? What's another template between friends?

FIENDISH Were-Polar Bear.

[Togath]

For bears I was thinking that any lawful could be a good choice, as newer representations(can't think of any other then the coca-cola and klondike bar commercials) don't add much, older ones(medieval and older ones) however usually view bears as symbols of strength and endurance, strength seems like it could be any alignment, but endurance sounds fairly lawful aligned.

For whales, its rather hard to say for most kinds of whales, but any types of whale who eat squid would probably have an alignment opposite that of a were-squid, which would probably possess an evil alignment.

there we go, it posted correctly this time.

[DragonBaneDM]

http://www.flixxy.com/polar-bears-eskimo-dogs.htm

Lawful Good. :smallsmile:

[King Atticus]

IMHO I wouldn't go any higher up on the charts than Neutral. Not for any hard scientific factual reason but just because I can't think of a were-dire polar bear as being anything other than a really cranky bastard. That might just be me, I know I'd be grouchy if I was in that condition and grouchy + the means to vent it = the opportunity for nastiness in my book :smallwink:

[AMFV]

IMHO I wouldn't go any higher up on the charts than Neutral. Not for any hard scientific factual reason but just because I can't think of a were-dire polar bear as being anything other than a really cranky bastard. That might just be me, I know I'd be grouchy if I was in that condition and grouchy + the means to vent it = the opportunity for nastiness in my book :smallwink:
But yet regular werebears are good, but they have equal reason to be crouchy...

To the OP: you can definitely set the tone regarding bears, maybe have an evil polar bear god to some northern tribe or somesuch. Once you've established their EVIIL nature it is unlikely that the players will have strongly formed opinions to the contrary.

[Sir_Chivalry]

Well, having worked and worked I have one last question, what build should I use to make this little polar bear lady (which all this is in aid of creating)?

I have her posing as a commisioned officer in the military of a decadent nation. She's bringing it down by secretly goading the nation into attacks on a breakaway state that has taken the countries actual military with it, leaving the current king in command of only the noble houses and their private armies. I was considering either barbarian, fighter, crusader or knight. Perhaps six levels of fighter to get all the alternate class goodness, then two levels of barbarian for what that can offer, then advance in one of the last two?

[MesiDoomstalker]

Well, having worked and worked I have one last question, what build should I use to make this little polar bear lady (which all this is in aid of creating)?

I have her posing as a commisioned officer in the military of a decadent nation. She's bringing it down by secretly goading the nation into attacks on a breakaway state that has taken the countries actual military with it, leaving the current king in command of only the noble houses and their private armies. I was considering either barbarian, fighter, crusader or knight. Perhaps six levels of fighter to get all the alternate class goodness, then two levels of barbarian for what that can offer, then advance in one of the last two?

What ECL/CR you looking for?

[Darth_Versity]

I agree that dolphins are CE. Gang-rapists of the ocean among other things.

The concensus saddens me, but I can see the logic. The issue is said npc is a major villain, a brute if any of you know tropes, and though being good is not outside possibility (I'm up for a challenge), her status within the villain group as well as being the lover to the dark chick (a warlock who specializes in unarmed fighting) might make this difficult. Not the thread topic persay, but any adivice?

Stick a helm of opposite alignment on him. When he got bitten and turned all good, the warlock chick found the helm and slapped it on his head to turn him back to his evil ways.

It also gives the PC's an alternate way to end the game. If they find out about the helm they can try to remove it in the final battle and turn the main villain to their cause.

P.S. This picture would be awsome for that!
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fb_gallery/83579.jpg


Heck, the MM even comes out and says that the "always" alignment descriptor is only like, 95% accurate.

Like condoms!

[Sir_Chivalry]

What ECL/CR you looking for?

Well, I can safely put about 14 levels before CR 20, so work with that I guess, with a few extra levels to play with if need be (haven't determined what the endgame level is, so the bosses need to grow with that)


Stick a helm of opposite alignment on him. When he got bitten and turned all good, the warlock chick found the helm and slapped it on his head to turn him back to his evil ways.

It also gives the PC's an alternate way to end the game. If they find out about the helm they can try to remove it in the final battle and turn the main villain to their cause.

P.S. This picture would be awsome for that!
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/fb_gallery/83579.jpg



Like condoms!

That might be interesting, though besides being hella strong she's got little to offer in a fight against the main villain.

What I've got for my big bads

Big Bad- Fiend of Corruption of unknown variety just yet/Infused (Dragon Magazine, celestial riding on your soul, trying to redeem you) Fiend/both of those

Dragon- Shadar-kai Fallen Paladin (Blackguard) 5/Shadowbane Inquisitor 10/Pious Templar 1/Bone Knight 1

Evil Genius- Grey Elf Factotum 3/Swashbuckler 3/Duelist 10

Brute- Our werebear friend here

Dark Chick- Warlock/Shou Disciple/Fist of the Forest

[MesiDoomstalker]

Well, I can safely put about 14 levels before CR 20, so work with that I guess, with a few extra levels to play with if need be (haven't determined what the endgame level is, so the bosses need to grow with that)



That might be interesting, though besides being hella strong she's got little to offer in a fight against the main villain.

What I've got for my big bads

Big Bad- Fiend of Corruption of unknown variety just yet/Infused (Dragon Magazine, celestial riding on your soul, trying to redeem you) Fiend/both of those

Dragon- Shadar-kai Fallen Paladin (Blackguard) 5/Shadowbane Inquisitor 10/Pious Templar 1/Bone Knight 1

Evil Genius- Grey Elf Factotum 3/Swashbuckler 3/Duelist 10

Brute- Our werebear friend here

Dark Chick- Warlock/Shou Disciple/Fist of the Forest

So you want the were-polar bear to be a big heavy hitter then. If she has a decent Int, Warblade might be a good idea. A dip in Barbarian with the ACF that gives out Pounce to combo nicely with the extra natural attacks she has.