Cant Touch this (3.5 build questions)

[The Underlord]

So currently I am currently trying to make a high AC high save high hitpoint character(yes I know it wouldnt be very effecetive damage-wise), but I ran into a a couple of problems.
1. Do the wisdom bonus to ac form monk and swordsage stack?
2. similarly do the con to ac from fist of the forest prc and the monk bouns stack?
3. Deepwarden con to acc replaces dex so it would stack with monk's bonus regardless, correct?

[Keld Denar]

1) No. They would not for various reasons. First, they are the same bonus. Second, due to really dumb wording, Monk only works unarmed and Swordsage only works in light armor. This one is dumb, and should be ignored, but the first is correct. They are both "AC Bonus" that build off Wis.

2) Yes. They are both AC Bonus, but they are dependant on different abilities and thus are different sources.

3) Yes. It simply replaces Dex with Con. Also, it has a different name.

[dextercorvia]

If you hold to Keld's answer 1 there, that same name but based on different ability stacks (not everybody does, but I think in this case it was supposed to) Battle Dancer gets Cha to AC in an ability called Armor Bonus.

[Chilingsworth]

One of my friends had a character like this once: Had a couple of rogue levels, a barbarian level, a a few ranger levels (enough to get endurance as a bonus feat,) deepwarden levels, thief acrobat levels, and eventually warblade levels (for that concentration check = damage manuver.)

He was a dwarf (of course) and had steadfast determination and that feat that gives his racial dodge bonus to anything bigger than him, plus shield ward. He wore magical gnomish twist cloth armor and had an anti-ranged attack armor cyrstal and a bunch of nor armor/shield bonus items to ac. He was pretty crazy, and all but unkillable.

EDIT: Sorry for the ramble, just trying to relate everything I remember about the build.

[The Underlord]

hmm with battle dancer my estimate AC is 60(10 base +10 charisma from chaos* cobra style monk with AM + 10 from arcane duelist + 10 from deepwarden +10 from Fist of the forset +10 from battle dancer) without wearing any armor. And with paladin and blackguard dips I can get +20 to save also. Probably very feat intensive though.
edit feat you dont get as bonus you would need
Endurance
Great Fortitude
Power attack
Cleave
Improved Sunder

*You can switch to being chaotic after taking 2 levels so you could just do that instead of a chaos monk.

[candycorn]

hmm with battle dancer my projected AC is 60(10 base +10 charisma from chaos cobra style monk with AM + 10 from arcane duelist + 10 from deepwarden +10 from Fist of the forset +10 from battle dancer) without wearing any armor. And with paladin and blackguard dips I can get +20 to save also. Probably very feat intensive though.
edit feat you dont get as bonus you would need
Endurance
Great Fortitude
Power attack
Cleave
Improved Sunder

Try:
Dwarf Druid 17 / Deepwarden 2 / Fist of the Forest 1

Worship Mielikki, wear extreme plate with a +5 enhancement (magic vestment) and the wild enhancement. That's +15 Armor, +Con x2 to AC, +Nat Armor + Wis to AC. Add on Monk's belt also.

When shifted, the armor melds (not worn any more) but still provides bonus.

With the right boosts to wisdom and Con (practiced spellcaster, Owl's Insight, +6 Item for Con and Wis, +5 tome to wis, +5 to stats for wis, +3 to Wis from age =46 wis easy. With a form with a base Con of 24, you'd have a 30), that could easily be AC 10 (base) + 20 (Con x2) + 18 (Wis) + 15 (Armor) + 7 (animated +5 heavy shield) + Natural armor = 70 + Natural Armor - size.

And that's not working too terribly hard. Charisma could stack it higher.

[Greenish]

How about good ol' Serene Flamer build. Monk2/Pal4/Argent Fist X with Serenity. Wis to AC and saves, even while using armour/shield, Evasion and Mettle. Also some self-healing, and a bunch of TU to burn for stuff like Law Devotion.

[Chilingsworth]

what book(s) are argent fist and Serenity in?

[The Underlord]

Try:
Dwarf Druid 17 / Deepwarden 2 / Fist of the Forest 1

Worship Mielikki, wear extreme plate with a +5 enhancement (magic vestment) and the wild enhancement. That's +15 Armor, +Con x2 to AC, +Nat Armor + Wis to AC. Add on Monk's belt also.

When shifted, the armor melds (not worn any more) but still provides bonus.

With the right boosts to wisdom and Con (practiced spellcaster, Owl's Insight, +6 Item for Con and Wis, +5 tome to wis, +5 to stats for wis, +3 to Wis from age =46 wis easy. With a form with a base Con of 24, you'd have a 30), that could easily be AC 10 (base) + 20 (Con x2) + 18 (Wis) + 15 (Armor) + 7 (animated +5 heavy shield) + Natural armor = 70 + Natural Armor - size.

And that's not working too terribly hard. Charisma could stack it higher.
What is extreme armor?
How does druid get wisdom to armor?
Owl's Insight and The items bonus dont stack because they are both enhancment bonuses.
How are you getting 43 Wisdom?because 6+5+5+3+18=37
monk's belt only works when not not wering armor so that is out.

[Fouredged Sword]

I like monk 2 / rogue 2 / fighter 2 / swordsage x.

You get ray reflection rather than evasion as a rogue (returning any ranged attacks back at the user)

You get great saves from monk, and swordsage lets you get the dimond mind save boosters for when you really need to pass. Wis to AC and light armor makes getting really good touch AC not a problem. Fighter levels give you enough feats to go down the mage slayer line quickly and get pierce magical concelment, allowing you to get a ring of blinking for 50% miss chance. UMD a wand of mirror image and teleport like crazy with shadow hand abilities.

I would recomend the focused attack ACF for monk as it is more useful than flurry and you can powerattack with a staff for (1.5xstr + 2xPA)X2 damage

[TroubleBrewing]

What is extreme armor?

A type of exotic armor found in RoS, I believe.



How does druid get wisdom to armor?

Monk's Belt. Great item for high-Wis dependent classes.



monk's belt only works when not not wering armor so that is out.

Candycorn pointed out that when you are Wild Shaped, you aren't wearing the armor anymore, but you still benefit from its enhancement. Therefore, a monk's belt works just fine.

[dextercorvia]

How does druid get wisdom to armor?
Owl's Insight and The items bonus dont stack because they are both enhancment bonuses.



Monk's Belt. Great item for high-Wis dependent classes.

Also an ACF from UE. Owl's Insight is a spell from SpC. It grants 1/2CL insight bonus to your Wisdom.

[Longcat]

1) No. They would not for various reasons. First, they are the same bonus. Second, due to really dumb wording, Monk only works unarmed and Swordsage only works in light armor. This one is dumb, and should be ignored, but the first is correct. They are both "AC Bonus" that build off Wis.


Isn't the bonus type what's important, not the source? I know Monk bonus is Insight, but what bonus is Swordsage? I'm afb right now, but if it's a different type, then they should stack, if you ignore the armor rule.

[Greenish]

what book(s) are argent fist and Serenity in?FoE and DMC, respectively.

[Edit]:
I know Monk bonus is InsightReally?

[dextercorvia]

Isn't the bonus type what's important, not the source?

When you are dealing with untyped bonuses, then the source becomes important.

[Longcat]

When you are dealing with untyped bonuses, then the source becomes important.

Does it say anywhere that untyped bonuses do not stack? I'm curious about that, so if anyone had a page reference, it would be greatly appreciated.

[Fouredged Sword]

From the SRD.

Link to page (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#circumstanceModifier)


Stacking
In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source (such as the same spell cast twice in succession). If the modifiers to a particular roll do not stack, only the best bonus and worst penalty applies. Dodge bonuses and circumstance bonuses however, do stack with one another unless otherwise specified.

Emphasis mine.

The issue is that Wis to AC is called AC bonus is both classes, makeing them both the same feature provided by difrent classes. This is further reinforced by the near ubiquitus line in all wis to AC bonuses that they don't stack with the Monks wis to AC bonus. (I am AFB and can't check if TOB swordsage has that line, but most do)

[Person_Man]

My Frozen Dwarf Hulk Smash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50588)!!! build contains the elements that you are looking for, with the added bonus of being healed by Cold damage when in a Rage.

[The Underlord]

Also an ACF from UE. Owl's Insight is a spell from SpC. It grants 1/2CL insight bonus to your Wisdom.

I was thinking of owl's wisdom, not owl's insight.