Question(s) on monster CR

[Balor01]

Hey guys (ang girls :P),

According to my observations, the line of PC power after say lvl 15 skyrockets, while monster powers advance, but at a too slow pace. There were several games where I as a DM saw that throwing a big T at lvl 18 PC would jsut shame big T and I had to bring those Epic monsters out. Some fared well vs PCs, some not, but the rule of the thumb was:
monster must have true seeing, fly and blindsight/blindsense to do anything vs PCs of such lvl.
The fact is, problems erupted at even lower levels then 18. I had a problem of giving my PCs a good monster challenge somewhere from PC lvl 12 and up.

So the way I see, monsters of CR 12+ are in 3.5 REALLY UNDERPOWERED. Except, maybe, vs monks. :P

Your thoughts on this, playground?

[Dumbledore lives]

I think after a certain point bruisers (like the big T) just don't have anything to do. If you use more tricky types like spell-casters or monsters with a lot of spell like abilities, you can offer up a good challenge, especially with multiples or minions.

[marcielle]

Use terrain. Areas of wild magic are one of the few things that give a levvel 20 wizard trouble. Especially since, with their usually low Dex, their dragonkiller shivering touch is capable of killing himself as well. If they are nearing epic, you can add world shattering events where throughout the planes a blockade has been set up by the gods dissallowing interdimentional travel, magic itself goes crazy or certain types of monsters can no longer be beaten by pure hp/ability score damage. Say, sundered wall between material plane and afterlife realm of your setting, resulting in ghosts returning to attack within an hour of being defeated unless their unfinished business is completed. Just make sure you are introducing these and hinting to them IN ADVANCE. So it doesn't feel like you are just making stuff up to counter the PCs. Weave them into your setting.

[TroubleBrewing]

Groups are key at high levels. The amount of focus fire a party of 4 can bring to bear on one critter is frightening, but if the party is outnumbered and the enemies are intelligent, a real challenge can be had.

Look up "Tucker's Kobolds" for an example.

[peacenlove]

Customize monsters.
Change feats (Incarnum and to a lesser extend ToB maneuvers) can drastically change the adaptability and sheer power of a monster.
Templates. Vecna blooded takes care of those pesky knowledge checks, half fiend/ vampire gives flight and it is very powerful for its CR adjustment.
Use the monster's treasure as equipment. 1-2 level of a PC class also increases monster stats and gives him a lot of added equipment (which can be non-lootable items such as grafts and insight bonus tomes)

[Runestar]

I think they are not so much underpowered as ill-equipped to deal with the multitude of options available to a high level party.

For example, place the tarrasque in an underground cavern with limited room for flight and mobility and it should fare much better. You need to be willing to metagame and set up the encounters to better cater to the monster's strengths while limiting those of the party.

Half-fiend is another example of a template which helps makes monsters more viable, granting them flight and useful SLAs like unholy aura (improved defenses), summon monster (meatshields/blockers) and horrid wilting (a great opening alpha strike).

Using non-associated class rules on spellcasters and monsters with moderate amounts of HD helps to mitigate one of their biggest weaknesses - that of low hp. This gives them more staying power.

Also, I find martial adepts very fun to tack onto otherwise boring monsters like elementals, granting them more powerful attacks and defenses. Surprise the PCs when your elder elemental warblade shrugs off that slow spell with ease, then moves and can still attack for 100+ damage! :smallbiggrin: