Glass Cannon build?

[etrpgb]

I have this idea for a glass cannon...
I am interested in a strong, but not exaggerate build to is able to make damage.

As you can see we use some of alternate rules: Weapons Group from Unearthed Arcana, Feat every odd level and Monk fighting styles.
Beside few classes are banned: this included the Friezed Berserk and the Complete Champion Lion Barbarian.

The letter is brackets mark bonus feats. (e.g., (M) is monk bonus feat)

Sun Elf (+2 Int -2 Con)
1 Monk (Overwhelming Attack) Weapon Group: Heavy Blades, Bladebearer of the Valenar, Power Attack(M)
2 Monk Improved Bull Rush(M)
3 Monk Great Fortitude
4 Fighter Two Weapon Fighting(F)
5 Fighter Weapon Focus: Weapon Group Heavy Blades(F), Kung fu Genius
6 Fighter
7 Fighter Weapon Specialization: Weapon Group Heavy Blades(F), Expeditious Dodge
8 Drunken Master
9 Drunken Master Iron Will
10 The Revenant Blade
11 The Revenant Blade Ki Shout
12 The Revenant Blade
13 The Revenant Blade Shock Trooper
14 The Revenant Blade
15 Singh Rager Melee Weapon Mastery Slashing
16 Singh Rager
17 Singh Rager Slashing Flurry
18 Singh Rager
19 Fighter Leap Attack
20 Fighter ????

The idea is, of course, to use a valorous double scimitar and increase the power of the charge during the levels.

The two drunken master levels allows to make a charge almost in any circumstance.

The 5 levels of Revenant Blade allows to use both ends of the scimitar as two handed weapon. Considering a Zaelshin Tu those levels also gives four not-so-useful feats (e.g., Improved Critical, Great Cleave, Blind-fight and Spring Attack).

The Singh Rager fourth level gives the full attack after the charge.


This build is not all over the top as some other, but I think it is fairly decent.

I have some problems: MAD, I need 13 of Charisma for Ki shout, Wisdom for the Monk powers, Intelligence to enter the prestige classes and Tumble and Jump and of course strong physical stats.
I reduced the problem with Kung-fu genius that make Wisdom less useful, but maybe you can do better? For example can I go all out with charisma moving monk ability there (Like Ascetic Mage, but actually usable)?
It is better Improved Sunder and Combat Brute at the end? What can I take as last level?

What do you think?

Thanks.

[Tyndmyr]

Would pick Lion Totem Barb over sing rager. Also, the Powerful Charge feat should be of help.

Edit: Also, that's too much fighter unless you're going dungeoncrasher. Two levels is enough. Even a ranger dip is superior.

[lesser_minion]

Would pick Lion Totem Barb over sing rager. Also, the Powerful Charge feat should be of help.

Didn't she say that Lion Totem was banned?

[Tyndmyr]

Completely missed it. In that case, I'd dig up Person Man's guide to getting Pounce or equivalents. I recall there being a variety of ways less intensive than a four level dip.

[etrpgb]

I saw the list, but Scimitar is an heavy blade so I did not see an alternative.

About the Fighter levels I got four because I needed Weapon Specialization for Slashing Flurry. The last two are indeed not well thought. I can also continue the Singh Rager to have free haste for 7 rounds a day.
Do you think two levels as ranger are better?

[Tyndmyr]

They're better than two more levels of fighter, but they're still not great. A one level dip in barbarian for 1/day rage is not unreasonable, but haste is also handy if you're not getting haste from items or other sources, due to stacking.

Why TWF/Scimitars?

[Necroticplague]

Be sure to be a zhuemaritan fighter so that your 3rd and 5th levels of fighter aren't dead levels.

[Greenish]

Why TWF/Scimitars?For extra attacks, of course. Revenant Blade. :smallamused:

[Tyndmyr]

So, basically, you're making an ubercharger. Yes, you want Powerful Charge. +1d8 damage on the charge matters a great deal more when you can full attack on the charge.

Consider adding the heavy weapon property to your weapons for additionally critting goodness(it combos well with a good crit range), in addition to the standard flaming, etc properties. Basically, all the ones that add damage to yer average hits.

Then, start considering how you hit. I don't see a way in there to hit touch AC(unless I missed it), but that can do fantastic things for your average damage.

Is sun elf absolutely necessary for the int? The -con is brutal...you're not going to have the hp of a barb ubercharger build regardless, and a different race might offer different options. I'm a big fan of human paragon, personally. 2/3 bab, solves any skill problems you might have, and +2 stat basically compensates for the missing bab(plus a bit). Also, free feat of choice.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Revenant Blade is an elf-only Prg. Class, which is great for dual wielders as it allows you to treat both ends of a Valenar double scimitar as a two handed weapons (giving you *1.5 str to damage and 2:1 Power attack benefits).

For weapon enhancements I like Collision, +5 extra damage per hit is nothing to scoff at and it multiplies on crits.

[Tyndmyr]

Revenant Blade is an elf-only Prg. Class, which is great for dual wielders as it allows you to treat both ends of a Valenar double scimitar as a two handed weapons (giving you *1.5 str to damage and 2:1 Power attack benefits).

For weapon enhancements I like Collision, +5 extra damage per hit is nothing to scoff at and it multiplies on crits.

Mmmm, That's awkward then. I can't think of an elf variant that gives great stat bumps to charger builds. Elf Paragon is also not fantastic. I mean, you could get weapon focus from it, but the restrictions on it render it basically worthless.

I don't suppose half elf could get you in(not familiar with the class, really)? I mean, sure, it doesn't have great mods, but compared to sun elf...meh. No great tradeoff. And half elf paragon is actually worth it.

Edit: Also, yes, collision is solid.

[Greenish]

Though given that he's not going deeper into TWF tree, prudent thing might be to cut RB out of the build (ouch, I do love the PrC), enter Singh Rager as soon as possible, and make do with a more conventional charger.

That, or cut off the fighter levels in favour of, say, ranger. Wand of Lion's Charge for Pounce, TWF (and maybe ITWF) without requiring Dex. ITWF is better than Slashing Flurry, actually, in this case.


Question, though: what level are you starting?

[Edit]: Half-elf might get in. The book says there haven't been any half-elf Revenant Blades, but one might become one. Basically, run it by DM.

[Keld Denar]

Wildrunner? IIRC, it gives a bite attack and pounce when you use Primal Scream.

[Tyndmyr]

There's always good ol' snap kick if you want more attacks. Hate stacking negative modifiers, though...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Gloves of the balanced hand (MiC) are a steall at 8k GP for this kind of builds, as it saves a feat on ITWF.

And Ranger also helps with the skills as they have a solid list and a good amount of Skill points

Seeing other parts of the build, you could save another feat slot, by gaining Iron will by visiting the Othyug Hole (as per Complete Scoundrel) and paying 3 K.

[NecroRick]

Strictly speaking, Carmendine Monk is superior to Kung Fu Genius.

[Greenish]

Strictly speaking, Carmendine Monk is superior to Kung Fu Genius.And wearing armour is better still. Want flurry, dip EWM, you already qualified when you've finished RB. Drunken Master is nifty, but not really worth the effort.

[Dusk Eclipse]

And wearing armour is better still. Want flurry, dip EWM, you already qualified when you've finished RB. Drunken Master is nifty, but not really worth the effort.

I think the point of Drunken master was to get twisted charge, I don't know of other way of getting it other than the skill trick which is useful 1/encounter and the Bounding Assault maneuver (level 4 IIRC)

[Telonius]

Couple problems there. Kung Fu Genius has to be taken at Monk1, iirc. (Carmendine Monk doesn't have this restriction). I know this is supposed to be a "glass" cannon, but just so you're totally clear: the character will have to be unarmored for Kung Fu Genius (or Carmendine Monk) to be very useful.

Why the third level in Monk? A level of almost any other full-BAB class would do more for you. All you get is 4+int skill points, +2 vs enchantment, and 1BAB. No extra saves.

[Greenish]

I think the point of Drunken master was to get twisted chargeYes, I'm aware of that, I was just pointing out that blowing monk levels and levels and a whole bunch of feats just for that isn't really worth the gain.

[Dusk Eclipse]

I see, actually a couple of levels of Warblade would help a bit, there are some nifty maneuvers and blood in the water may be worthwhile for this build.

[Tyndmyr]

I find swift action teleports, regardless of short range, tend to fix issues that twisted charge does.

[Flickerdart]

Mmmm, That's awkward then. I can't think of an elf variant that gives great stat bumps to charger builds. Elf Paragon is also not fantastic. I mean, you could get weapon focus from it, but the restrictions on it render it basically worthless.

I don't suppose half elf could get you in(not familiar with the class, really)? I mean, sure, it doesn't have great mods, but compared to sun elf...meh. No great tradeoff. And half elf paragon is actually worth it.

Edit: Also, yes, collision is solid.
Wild Elves get +2 STR -2 INT, so it helps a little (who cares about a CON penalty when all your enemies are dead?).

[etrpgb]

I can swap Kung fu Genius with Bladebearer of the Valenar or Carmendine Monk. Thanks for telling me about the problem.

We use Complete Gear, so we are fairly free about items so I was counting about a Valorous Double Scimitar and Gloves of the balanced hand (MiC) just when I can. I do not know the Collision power I will look for it.

We should start around level 3, but with a fairly fast progression. The DM wanted characters what are meaningful for all levels.

Powerful charge (Miniatures Handbook p. 27) works only with the first attack in the charge and gives 1d8 of extra damage, is really worth it?

About the reason of the third monk level, the reason is speed. It makes Expeditious Dodge meaningful and since character power is based on charges speed is important to reach adversaries.

Greenish, it was fairly difficult obtain the twisted charge. In fact the build would be much easier to do without. Do you really think it is not worth? The main reason was doing circular charges so I can charge the same enemy every round until it is down (0r I am).

Sorry, but please no ToB, ToM or Psionics rules... I would like to stay with... ``normal'' one.
As I said I did not wanted anything exaggerate because the party is formed by fairly casual players.

And what is a zhuemaritan fighter, where can I look for it?

Edit: Elf paragon might not so bad, but I need to push a martial wizard level somewhere...
Edit Edit: nevermind. The bonus feat Weapon Focus cannot be applied to the scimitar!

[Greenish]

Greenish, it was fairly difficult obtain the twisted charge. In fact the build would be much easier to do without. Do you really think it is not worth? The main reason was doing circular charges so I can charge the same enemy every round until it is down (0r I am).You're Leap Attack Shock Trooper Pouncer. Do you expect an enemy to survive your charge?

Anyhow, swift action movement is probably easier. Travel Devotion, say, and cleric dip could get you other interesting stuff.

[Edit]: Zhentarim fighter sub levels are from CoV web enhancement. Rather minor (before the 9th level one). I don't recommend taking more than two levels of fighter.

[Tyndmyr]

Powerful charge (Miniatures Handbook p. 27) works only with the first attack in the charge and gives 1d8 of extra damage, is really worth it?

Eberron Campaign Setting has it as well...don't recall if it has that limitation, but I don't remember it having it.

[Greenish]

Eberron Campaign Setting has it as well...don't recall if it has that limitation, but I don't remember it having it.Yeah, the ECS version at least specifies that even if you can make multiple attacks on a charge, you only get the damage once.

[Tyndmyr]

Sad times, that makes it a great deal less practical, then.

[Keld Denar]

Um....are we forgetting that he's a charger. Dealing 1d8 + 600 + 1d8 damage kinda makes Powerful Charge rather...defunct.

[Tyndmyr]

That is an accurate summary of the current conversation, yes.

[etrpgb]

1d8 + 600 ? Come on...

But I am curious to see how much damage a charge would do if a single attack hits...

Lets see... It is a charge, we have a valorous collision double scimitar + 5

4.5 Scimitar (Average of 1d8)
5 Magic
5 Collision
10 Strength
5 Strength (Two-handed weapon)
18 Power Attack
18 Power Attack (Two-handed weapon)
18 Leap Attack
18 Leap Attack
====
101 Total
101 Valorous Weapon
===
202

Hoping the party is ready to help me since I have a -18 to AC :D...

While not exaggerate, it sounds nice. It just sound a waste I cannot obtain Combat Brute for another pair of 18... Oh, well.

Edit: and I forgot Specialization and Melee Weapon Mastery Slashing.

[Fouredged Sword]

A dip in warblade could greatly help ofset that horrid AC. Wall of blades (I think) lets you prevent an attack with your own attack roll. Good stuff that. Also look into getting miss chances, as they work longside to AC and will help prevent attacks from landing.

[Keld Denar]

202 per hit mind you, with at least 5 main hand attacks (4 iterative + haste) and 2 offhand attacks, all at nearly full BAB due to Shocktroper and Pounce.

Assuming 6/7 hits (no crits, last iterative misses), thats 1212 damage per full attack charge. The Tarrasque is one of the the highest HP creature in the MMI with 858 HP, and that full attack would deal 1122 damage which would leave it unconsious for just over 6 rounds before it's regeneration would kick in.

So yea, the extra 1d8 from Powerful Charge is rediculous.

[pilvento]

If revenant blade lets you wield each end of the double simitar as a two-handed weapon then dip exotic weapon master to aply *2 str bonus to each end of the weapon. :smallcool:

[Greenish]

If revenant blade lets you wield each end of the double simitar as a two-handed weapon then dip exotic weapon master to aply *2 str bonus to each end of the weapon. :smallcool:That only works for one-handed exotic weapons.

[etrpgb]

On the other hand the stunt Flurry of Strike might be useful.