[PF] What are good feat choices for Sorcerers?

[Frosty]

So I might play a Sorcerer with the Celestial bloodline (not optimal, I know). I'm not really sure what feats are good for a sorcerer so I'd like some advice. Combat Casting is probably decent and necessary at low levels. Maybe Defensive Training as well? We're starting at level 1 so metamagic won't help me much for a while.

[Curious]

Eldritch Heritage? It gives you the first few ablities of other bloodlines.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Sauces available? Also, I assume you know that playing a human is a good idea. Magical Heritage is a nice trait to get. Note that DCT only increases your CMD by one point right now. By level 5... three points. If you're super-focused on early level survival, improving your chances of acting before the enemy is often the best defense possible. In that vein, I'd grab Improved Initiative and switch to the Empyreal Bloodline (WIS sorc) and invest Perception, though you don't get the +3.

[Gullintanni]

Sauces available?

I'm a fan of the classics...Pesto, Napolitana, Alfredo...Carbonara, Yum! The real question is, what's the MetaPasta adjustment on a good Arrabiata? :smallwink:

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I'm a fan of the classics...Pesto, Napolitana, Alfredo...Carbonara, Yum! The real question is, what's the MetaPasta adjustment on a good Arrabiata? :smallwink:Yeah, but Paizo brand only makes Marinara and Pesto, so I was wondering if we had other choices.

[Frosty]

Yeah, but Paizo brand only makes Marinara and Pesto, so I was wondering if we had other choices.
Anything from the Core rulebook and the APG is a go. Anything else must be approved on a case by case basis since the DM doesn't have books like Ultimate Magic/Combat.

Where is Eldritch Heritage from? And yes I'm a human. I'm fluffing my character as an Angel who was severely weakened and must pose as a human as she regains her powers, so any other Heritage powers she gets must mesh well thematically with being a Celestial (so infernal powers are a no-no)

[stack]

Regarding combat casting: how necessary is it. I know it is almost required for a low-level magus, but a sorcerer should not be in threatened range when casting.

If you take the magical lineage trait, than a +1 metamagic could be applied to one spell for no adjustment. (assuming we get traits)

[Sitzkrieg]

Complete Cream has a Rose prestige class that lets you maintain your alfredo abilities while progressing in marinara. It's 3.5, but it would be good for saucerers who want to expand their spell list.

In actual advice, Combat Casting is a bit of a trick. You're better off picking Skill Focus (Concentration) if you're worried about concentration checks. The bonus is only one point less, and it applies to all concentration checks, not just casting defensively. Plus it goes up to +6 at higher levels, so it becomes strictly better than Combat Casting.

[Blisstake]

Complete Cream has a Rose prestige class that lets you maintain your alfredo abilities while progressing in marinara. It's 3.5, but it would be good for saucerers who want to expand their spell list.

In actual advice, Combat Casting is a bit of a trick. You're better off picking Skill Focus (Concentration) if you're worried about concentration checks. The bonus is only one point less, and it applies to all concentration checks, not just casting defensively. Plus it goes up to +6 at higher levels, so it becomes strictly better than Combat Casting.

Except that's not an actual feat since Concentrate isn't an actual skill.

Also, most times I've played a sorcerer, 5 foot stepping got me out of most situations where I'd have to make a concentration check.

For early level feats, I'm partial to Spell Focus, Toughness, and Improved Initiative (all core)

[Frosty]

Regarding combat casting: how necessary is it. I know it is almost required for a low-level magus, but a sorcerer should not be in threatened range when casting.

If you take the magical lineage trait, than a +1 metamagic could be applied to one spell for no adjustment. (assuming we get traits)
What spell might be a good choice for this trait? As a level 1 sorc, I only know 2 spells. One of them is likely to be Color Spray.

[stack]

Good question. You can extend color spray. I am only aware of the trait due to building a magus (several, actually, the games fall apart too fast to use it) to intensify shocking grasp, extending its useful life dramatically.

Bouncing spell works for any single target that is negated by a save. Could be fun on charm person. Ray of sickening would work, as would some others, I'm sure. I like it on the cleric spell murderous command, but that's not on your list.

[Frosty]

Hmm...Extended Color Spray does sound nice.

What other spell should a level 1 sorc take?

[Engine]

What other spell should a level 1 sorc take?

Grease (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/grease): you could use it offensively or defensively. As an offensive spell you could impair a whole group of enemies with its area effect or render a fighter-type weaker causing her to drop her weapon. As a defensive spell you could use it to boost your Escape Artist check or your CMD against a grapple.

Sleep (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/sleep): for low-level adventures it could be a great combat ender.

Vanish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vanish): the 1st level (and shorter) version of Invisibility. Good defensive spell when you get targeted.

well, there are a lot of good spell, but I'll probably go with Color Spray and Vanish for my 1st level spells, or substitute Color Spray with Grease or Sleep.

[Blisstake]

I like to take at least one spell that does damage to start out with. Ear Piercing Scream is a nice one, because it can also daze the target. Magic Missile is a classic, and not a horrible choice if the enemy can't be affected by sleep or color spray (or you can't afford to get close enough).

[Frosty]

Since I'm already gonna use Color Spray, should I really choose another Will-Save-or-Die spell?

Grease looks like a decent idea however.

I like to take at least one spell that does damage to start out with. Ear Piercing Scream is a nice one, because it can also daze the target. Magic Missile is a classic, and not a horrible choice if the enemy can't be affected by sleep or color spray (or you can't afford to get close enough).My party members can already do plenty of damage. Plus, if an enemy is knocked out by color spray, then a coup-de-grace is always possible.

[Gnaeus]

Grease (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/grease): you could use it offensively or defensively. As an offensive spell you could impair a whole group of enemies with its area effect or render a fighter-type weaker causing her to drop her weapon. As a defensive spell you could use it to boost your Escape Artist check or your CMD against a grapple.

Sleep (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/sleep): for low-level adventures it could be a great combat ender.

Vanish (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vanish): the 1st level (and shorter) version of Invisibility. Good defensive spell when you get targeted.

well, there are a lot of good spell, but I'll probably go with Color Spray and Vanish for my 1st level spells, or substitute Color Spray with Grease or Sleep.

I wouldn't take both sleep and color spray. The other options are good. I also like Stumble Gap (reflex save or trip like grease, gives a little debuff if they fail save). Ear Piercing scream (as mentioned) is another good choice. Enlarge Person is a good combat buff for a fighter or monk. Protection from Evil is another good combat buff which you will never regret having on your list (and thematically appropriate).

[Frosty]

I wouldn't take both sleep and color spray. The other options are good. I also like Stumble Gap (reflex save or trip like grease, gives a little debuff if they fail save). Ear Piercing scream (as mentioned) is another good choice. Enlarge Person is a good combat buff for a fighter or monk. Protection from Evil is another good combat buff which you will never regret having on your list (and thematically appropriate).Where are Stumble Gap and EPS from? Prot from Evil also sounds like a very good choice, and I might take that instead of Grease.

I might even use Magicial Lineage with PfE instead and take the "Reach" metamagic feat.

[Engine]

I wouldn't take both sleep and color spray. The other options are good. I also like Stumble Gap (reflex save or trip like grease, gives a little debuff if they fail save). Ear Piercing scream (as mentioned) is another good choice. Enlarge Person is a good combat buff for a fighter or monk. Protection from Evil is another good combat buff which you will never regret having on your list (and thematically appropriate).

I agree, as I said I would take Color Spray & Vanish, or Sleep & Vanish (or Grease & Vanish) - a defensive spell and an offensive spell. The other options you listed are also good, and I would definitely take them playing a Sorcerer (with my current Wizard they're all in my spellbook) but as a 1st level Sorcerer, with two spell known, I would go with very basic spell: Enlarge Person is a great combat buff, I had one costantly prepared, but with a Sorcerer at 1st level you should drop Color Spray, or something useful like Vanish for avoiding entirely being the pincushion of the situation. The spells I listed are, in my humble opinion, the most useful to end an encounter and protect yourself if something goes wrong.

[Frosty]

What do you mean pincushion? Are you saying that using Color Spray makes me too close to the action for comfort?

[Gnaeus]

It does, but sleep takes a full round to cast, and color spray is one action, so its a tradeoff. Stumble Gap and EPS are on the Pathfinder SRD. Advanced Player guide or ultimate magic I suspect. I wouldn't necessarily take vanish at level 1, because it is a standard action for only 1 round of invis.

[Engine]

What do you mean pincushion? Are you saying that using Color Spray makes me too close to the action for comfort?

Color Spray is a great spell, but a risky one. But I would take Vanish even with other spells with longer range: it's just too good, IMHO. For me is a lifesaver.

[ericgrau]

Given your bloodline arcana, augment summoning and summoning spells may be good; but not at level 1. Don't forget to magic circle yourself earlier in the day to buff them even further. Your bonus feat options are fairly lousy. You might want to grab a mount just so you can take advantage of them. Otherwise I'd grab extend spell and iron will there.

Even with defensive training you won't avoid grapples very well with your low strength and dexterity. Especially as a first feat, where it amounts to a +1. Fairly suck. I'd rely on your party members, summons and range to keep you out of harm's way as much as possible. Combat casting might be ok for when that doesn't work, but ideally I'd find ways to stay out of melee in the first place. A good first level feat is usually spell focus, you need spell focus (conjuration) to get augment summoning and conjuration is a popular school anyway, so you might want to go with that. I'd do that if you don't do combat casting or spell focus in another school.

[Blisstake]

Since I'm already gonna use Color Spray, should I really choose another Will-Save-or-Die spell?

Grease looks like a decent idea however.
My party members can already do plenty of damage. Plus, if an enemy is knocked out by color spray, then a coup-de-grace is always possible.

Right, but it might be a bad idea if your only offensive action is limited to color spray early on. You won't want to use it if friendly fire becomes an issue, if the enemy is out of range, or they have a high will save. Ear Piercing Scream can cover most of those weaknesses (it does damage on its own, has a good range, and requires a fort save to resist daze)

Also, I don't like vanish. It can save your life, yes, but I'd much rather cast an offensive spell that would prevent the enemy from being able to hit me in the first place, or maneuving myself so that enemies have to get through my allies first. I prefer waiting for invisibility, honestly.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Given your bloodline arcana, augment summoning and summoning spells may be good; but not at level 1. Don't forget to magic circle yourself earlier in the day to buff them even further. Your bonus feat options are fairly lousy. You might want to grab a mount just so you can take advantage of them. Otherwise I'd grab extend spell and iron will there.

Even with defensive training you won't avoid grapples very well with your low strength and dexterity. Especially as a first feat, where it amounts to a +1. Fairly suck. I'd rely on your party members, summons and range to keep you out of harm's way as much as possible. Combat casting might be ok for when that doesn't work, but ideally I'd find ways to stay out of melee in the first place. A good first level feat is usually spell focus, you need spell focus (conjuration) to get augment summoning and conjuration is a popular school anyway, so you might want to go with that. I'd do that if you don't do combat casting or spell focus in another school.This reminds me. If you go the augment summoning route, after the party presents a mundane solution to a problem you should go "Or I could just summon a horde of angels."

[Frosty]

The problem is, I might not have access to Ultimate Magic. Still, Ear Piercing Scream does look good.

Now that I've looked at Vanish, it also looks very good. If I use Reach metamagic with it, I basocally give my allies a "Get out of Jail Free" card. They can leave squares without risking AoOs, and against creatures that can't see invis, that gives my allies a chance to attack them flat-footed.

This reminds me. If you go the augment summoning route, after the party presents a mundane solution to a problem you should go "Or I could just summon a horde of angels."...

My party doesn't have anyone who rides a BMX though...

[Engine]

Also, I don't like vanish. It can save your life, yes, but I'd much rather cast an offensive spell that would prevent the enemy from being able to hit me in the first place, or maneuving myself so that enemies have to get through my allies first. I prefer waiting for invisibility, honestly.

I wouldn't say you're wrong, because you have a point. It's just that I found that using Vanish as a panic button is more useful, especially at 1st level. You could throw a save-or-lose spell, but if the enemy make her save you're screwed: at least with Vanish I'm fairly certain that I could avoid being targeted.

[navar100]

One or two metamagic feats. Gives you a little extra variety in your spellcasting.

[Engine]

One or two metamagic feats. Gives you a little extra variety in your spellcasting.

At 1st level I wouldn't take Metamagic Feats, you could use them just on cantrips and I feel it would be useless: as a 3rd level feat a Metamagic feat could be more useful, because at 4th level you get 2nd level spells.

[Safety Sword]

If your party has a rogue, they'll appreciate Grease as much, if not more than you will.

It can also be used defensively with terrain to make charging you difficult and battlefield control to help your allies out is always good.

Sure it's not damage, but that's probably for the guys with the big metal toothpicks to worry about anyway (they have to do SOMETHING!).

It all depends what your party role is going to be. If you're the primary damage dealer then... do that. If you have someone who is supposed to be good at that, then supporting them can be just as fun and helps them enjoy their game too.

Horses for courses.

[Blisstake]

I wouldn't say you're wrong, because you have a point. It's just that I found that using Vanish as a panic button is more useful, especially at 1st level. You could throw a save-or-lose spell, but if the enemy made her save you're screwed: at least with Vanish I'm fairly certain that I could avoid being targeted.

Unless you've got someway to distance yourself from enemies. Usually when I play low level casters, just standing behind the beefy guys is enough.

But, then again, if your GM has something against you personally, vanish is probably a must :smalltongue:

[Safety Sword]

Unless you've got someway to distance yourself from enemies. Usually when I play low level casters, just standing behind the beefy guys is enough.

I hope your friends appreciate the colour sprays spell as much as you do then... or have good save numbers



But, then again, if your GM has something against you personally, vanish is probably a must :smalltongue:

It's not having "something against you personally" to play enemies that recognise that spell casters (theoretically) can be taken out more quickly (ie are "weaker") and that they are a major nuisance to your evil plans for world domination.

[Frosty]

I have no idea what my role in the party is, since the other party members have not been selected yet, but I'm sure there will be a few melee-foused characters.

My spell choices may depend on the other members then. If a Rogue gets accepted, I might take Vanish to help the Rogue get more Sneak Attack damage early on.

Of course, I can always fall back to a Heavy Crossbow if I have to for damage :smallwink:

[Safety Sword]

I have no idea what my role in the party is, since the other party members have not been selected yet, but I'm sure there will be a few melee-foused characters.

My spell choices may depend on the other members then. If a Rogue gets accepted, I might take Vanish to help the Rogue get more Sneak Attack damage early on.

Of course, I can always fall back to a Heavy Crossbow if I have to for damage :smallwink:

Rogue friendly spells (low level):
Grease
Glitterdust (blind foes are awesome)
Invisibility (for your rogue, not his targets :smalltongue:)
Summon Monster/Nature's Ally (expendable flanking partners! :smallcool:)

[Blisstake]

I hope your friends appreciate the colour sprays spell as much as you do then... or have good save numbers

If I cast color spray, that it doesn't matter if I have vanish or not, since you can't cast vanish directly after using CP... you'd have to wait another round to cast the second spell, by which point it's already too late.

And I never said Color Spray was mandatory. I usually take sleep instead, which goes past that problem.

[ericgrau]

You cast vanish after you reach low health, naturally; that's where it shines. At level 1 it only lasts 1 round and you don't hit low health though; you go straight from full to unconscious. It's a great 1st level spell, just not yet.

Since summons are good for you anyway you might as well summon the rogue a flanking buddy. Again, not at level 1 as the duration is 1 round. But soon.

Ya sleep tends to be the best 1st level spell. You could argue that's even RAW in 3.5 (though not PF AFAIK) since it's in the DMG advice :P. And later when it becomes obsolete you swap it out for one of the other spells mentioned here that's good only in the long run but not yet.

[Frosty]

Rogue friendly spells (low level):
Grease
Glitterdust (blind foes are awesome)
Invisibility (for your rogue, not his targets :smalltongue:)
Summon Monster/Nature's Ally (expendable flanking partners! :smallcool:)
Does Grease still make people Flat-Footed?

[ericgrau]

PF nerfed grease such that targets have to move to be flat-footed. Still ok for sneak attacking, but not as good. Also only lasts 1 round at level 1, so at the moment it's pure suck.

[Safety Sword]

Does Grease still make people Flat-Footed?

More correctly, denies them their Dex bonus. Still fulfills sneak attack conditions.

[Engine]

PF nerfed grease such that targets have to move to be flat-footed. Still ok for sneak attacking, but not as good. Also only lasts 1 round at level 1, so at the moment it's pure suck.

From PFSRD I see that Grease lasts 1 minute\level, not 1 round\level.

[Frosty]

More correctly, denies them their Dex bonus. Still fulfills sneak attack conditions.But are they still denied Dex bonus even if not moving?

[ericgrau]

From PFSRD I see that Grease lasts 1 minute\level, not 1 round\level.

Ah so they upgraded that part. Then it's useful at level 1, though still not as useful for helping the party rogue at any level. Here's the relevant section:



Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed.

The acrobatics skill says when using acrobatics to move across bad surfaces "While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any)." It does not say much beyond that, or even that grease counts, but the grease spell description already clarifies the specifics.

[Safety Sword]

That's a change from 3.5... makes it OK for area denial, but less useful for helping your rogues.

Bummer, really :smalltongue:

[ericgrau]

They also upgraded its usefulness against grapple though in that it helps prevent you from being grappled in the first place. Not something I'd want purely for anti-grapple at level 1, but a great thing to have on a scroll at high levels. In 3.5 grease as a response to grapple was a bit laughable like that, in that you could still be grappled and regrappled even if you did manage to get out after. Considering all the fluff for the grease-related magic items claimed grapple prevention, it's about time they fixed either the fluff or crunch to get them to match each other.

[Frosty]

The good news this, I was accepted into another game where the starting level is 6. So, I've got more spell choices to play with! Any equipment (standard WBL) and spell choices for a level 6 sorceress?

[Corlindale]

Level 6 is when you can start to use one of the most awesome metamagic feats in PF - namely, Persistent spell. It gets more useful later, but if you can find a good save or suck 1st level spell (sadly color spray and sleep will have outlived their usefulness at this point, probably) it could be really powerful already.

For items, you obviously want a +2 Cha item. I also really like to invest in the most powerful Cloak of Resistance I can afford, simply because saves are so essential for not dying or being shut down. Lesser metamagic rods could also be useful - again, the one for Persistent spell is quite cheap and very handy if you're relying on spells with saves (persistent glitterdust or stinking cloud will be downright scary at your level).
Boots of Levitation are also useful for staying safe, but a bit pricey at your level.

[Frosty]

Level 6 is when you can start to use one of the most awesome metamagic feats in PF - namely, Persistent spell. It gets more useful later, but if you can find a good save or suck 1st level spell (sadly color spray and sleep will have outlived their usefulness at this point, probably) it could be really powerful already.

For items, you obviously want a +2 Cha item. I also really like to invest in the most powerful Cloak of Resistance I can afford, simply because saves are so essential for not dying or being shut down. Lesser metamagic rods could also be useful - again, the one for Persistent spell is quite cheap and very handy if you're relying on spells with saves (persistent glitterdust or stinking cloud will be downright scary at your level).
Boots of Levitation are also useful for staying safe, but a bit pricey at your level.
How much would a meta rod of Persist cost? And something like Hold Person can be kind scary as well. Each round, the targets must make two saves vs Stinking Cloud or be nauseated. Each round, in order to try to break free of Hold Person, the target must succeed on two saving throws.

But, I can only spend up to 25% of 16k on any single item, so Metamagic rod of Persist is just not available :smallfrown:

[Corlindale]

Ah, it appears my suggestion of a Persist rod was due to an error in its SRD-entry, where it was listed as costing 3000 instead of 9000, while the table for rods displays the correct 9000 (at least I strongly assume that is the correct price, since it follows the conventions for level adjustment and pricing). I did wonder why it was so cheap :smallsmile:

Still, it's something to aim for in the future, I guess.

[Frosty]

I think I'll take Touch of Idiocy and Blindness definitely as my level 2 spells. Trying to decide on Haste or Slow for level 3 spell.