whip dagger

[Stront]

Looking for a bit of clarification on the whip dagger. It is a ranged weapon that you hold in your hand with 15' range. My question is does it provoke an attack of opportunity as a ranged weapon? Can you flank someone with it and gain sneak attack with it due to flanking? I realize you can sneak attack with a ranged weapon within 30'; however, isn't flanking a melee only benefit?

Thanks for the responses.

[Tsuzurao]

Whips and Whip-Daggers had a rule update crossing from 3.0 to 3.5. They're now Melee weapons with 15 ft. reach, rather than thrown weapons with a hard-limit for range, so there's no issue regarding flanking.

As a special rule for Whips/Whip-Daggers, you do not threaten any of the squares within its reach with it, but you can attack anywhere within the 15 ft. attack range. Using it also results in you provoking AoOs as if you were using a ranged weapon, despite being a melee weapon.

[Stront]

Whips and Whip-Daggers had a rule update crossing from 3.0 to 3.5. They're now Melee weapons with 15 ft. reach, rather than thrown weapons with a hard-limit for range, so there's no issue regarding flanking.

As a special rule for Whips/Whip-Daggers, you do not threaten any of the squares within its reach with it, but you can attack anywhere within the 15 ft. attack range. Using it also results in you provoking AoOs as if you were using a ranged weapon, despite being a melee weapon.

Makes sense the only question is how are there no issues for flanking; however, it doesn't threaten any squares in its range? If you don't threaten, you can't get flanking bonus right?

[Garagos]

Makes sense the only question is how are there no issues for flanking; however, it doesn't threaten any squares in its range? If you don't threaten, you can't get flanking bonus right?

I'm not saying you're wrong at all Tsuz, but I agree with Stront, that doesn't really make sense. I think if it were me I'd houserule it and the whip would threaten any square in its reach. Its not like a whip/whip dagger does tons of damage anyway.

[Ursus the Grim]

I'm not saying you're wrong at all Tsuz, but I agree with Stront, that doesn't really make sense. I think if it were me I'd houserule it and the whip would threaten any square in its reach. Its not like a whip/whip dagger does tons of damage anyway.

If you're try to deal damage with a whip, you're doing it wrong. Whips excel in special attacks, such as trips, most of which can be done as attacks of opportunity. Congratulations, you've just deposed the Spiked Chain as the weapon of choice for lockdown builds. If anyone knows what they're doing, nobody would be able to get within 15 feet. In order to get adjacent, they'd take two AoO from their target before even doing anything. If they really know what they're doing, no one will be able to get closer than 25 feet.

Edit:
Also, I think fluffwise, using a whip would be difficult to threaten with. It requires a windup and a focus on a single area. I used to see a whip on a daily basis by people who practiced with it daily, and I doubt anyone of them could strike a person within its range reflexively.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Whips excel in special attacks, such as trips, most of which can be done as attacks of opportunity. Congratulations, you've just deposed the Spiked Chain as the weapon of choice for lockdown builds.
Whips do not threaten and cannot make AoOs at all.


If anyone knows what they're doing, nobody would be able to get within 15 feet. In order to get adjacent, they'd take two AoO from their target before even doing anything.
You only provoke once per provoking action. Continuing to move through a threatened area does not provoke more attacks of opportunity, even if you have AoOs to make.


If they really know what they're doing, no one will be able to get closer than 25 feet.
I assume you mean natural reach bonuses; however, by RAW, Whips do not improve with natural reach (or, perhaps, become normal reach weapons; it is ambiguous). 25 ft. is one of the more sensible values possible, but it's neither the only one nor the one best supported by RAW.


Also, I think fluffwise, using a whip would be difficult to threaten with. It requires a windup and a focus on a single area. I used to see a whip on a daily basis by people who practiced with it daily, and I doubt anyone of them could strike a person within its range reflexively.
This is also false. In fact, threatening a large area and attacking suddenly and quickly is the only thing a bullwhip is good for, as a weapon. They do not cause serious injury (just excruciating pain and some moderate laceration), they are useless against an armored foe (both of which the 3.5 whips emulate), but what they can do is be very difficult to follow, attack very rapidly, and making approaching the whip-wielder a very painful proposition. You do not "wind up" – you keep the whip constantly in motion, ready to strike at any moment. The spinning motion makes it very difficult to follow and means it already has a lot of momentum ready for an attack.

[Fouredged Sword]

Question, If you threaten with another weapon and get an AOO, can you use the whip to make that attack? Something line a thri-kreen with a spiked chain and two whip daggers would threaten out to 10ft. You threaten that square and can hit it with the whip and you get an attack.

[Ursus the Grim]

Oh, boy. Guys, remember how I said that somebody who knew what they were doing could easily abuse the threatening whip? This is not that somebody.


Whips do not threaten and cannot make AoOs at all.
I know. The post you're attempting to make a fool of was a response, outlining the repercussions of house-ruling that they do.


You only provoke once per provoking action. Continuing to move through a threatened area does not provoke more attacks of opportunity, even if you have AoOs to make.
A point of contention, but the point was that they would be tripped on their first movement, provoking more attacks as they fall and get up, and then have to continue their move action on a separate turn, once again provoking attacks because its a different action.


I assume you mean natural reach bonuses; however, by RAW, Whips do not improve with natural reach (or, perhaps, become normal reach weapons; it is ambiguous). 25 ft. is one of the more sensible values possible, but it's neither the only one nor the one best supported by RAW.
You know what happens when you assume, of course.
I was referring to two component feats of most lockdown builds. One which increases your reach by five feet, and another which denies the movement that provoked the AoO if it hits. Hence, not be allowing within the reach of a 20 foot whip=being kept at 25 feet.


This is also false. In fact, threatening a large area and attacking suddenly and quickly is the only thing a bullwhip is good for, as a weapon. They do not cause serious injury (just excruciating pain and some moderate laceration), they are useless against an armored foe (both of which the 3.5 whips emulate), but what they can do is be very difficult to follow, attack very rapidly, and making approaching the whip-wielder a very painful proposition. You do not "wind up" – you keep the whip constantly in motion, ready to strike at any moment. The spinning motion makes it very difficult to follow and means it already has a lot of momentum ready for an attack.

Except that the whip loses a great deal of its momentum when you hit a resistant object solidly. Also "approaching is a painful proposition" is hilarious when taken in context, with humans that can survive consumption by dragon, especially when, if we're continuing a real-world scenario here, a whip is completely useless in close-quarters.

[Tsuzurao]

Oh, I just looked over the flanking rules again on the SRD, and I was wrong.

Both you and your ally must threaten the creature from opposite sides/corners to get a flanking bonus.

And I don't think there's a way to make a Whip(-Dagger) threaten its area, unfortunately. At least, I cannot recall one.

[Stront]

Oh, I just looked over the flanking rules again on the SRD, and I was wrong.

Both you and your ally must threaten the creature from opposite sides/corners to get a flanking bonus.

And I don't think there's a way to make a Whip(-Dagger) threaten its area, unfortunately. At least, I cannot recall one.

From what I'm getting - I believe the Whip-Dagger is melee, reach 15' but does Provoke an AoO as a ranged weapon. To get flanking, you need to be on the opposite side as another player threatening the enemy.

That being said, if you're standing next to the enemy with a whip in hand you are threatening (even though the whip doesn't) because you can always kick them or use a natural attack as long as you have a 5' reach (0' reach sized creatures are S.O.L.)

So basically as a rogue to get sneak attack, you would have to be flanking and if you used the Whip-Dagger in the flanking position, you would provoke an AoO each time you attacked.

Which leads me to the conclusion, toss the Whip-Dagger out and pick up a Spiked Chain. You lose 5' reach but can attack in a flanking position without provoking an AoO.

Isn't there also a +1 weapon enchant that adds 5' reach?

[Greenish]

A point of contentionIt's not. The rules are very clear that movement can only provoke once regardless of how many threatened squares you leave (per turn and per enemy, of course). Of course, single action can provoke more than one attack of opportunity, movement has a specific exception.

You're right that 15' reach threatening whip would depose spiked chain as the go-to control weapon, insofar as it's known. Dragon Magazine (I forgot the number) does have Meteor Hammer with 15' threatening reach, and despite it's obscurity is referenced often enough.

you are threatening (even though the whip doesn't) because you can always kick themUnarmed Strike doesn't threaten unless you have IUS.

[Ursus the Grim]

It's not. The rules are very clear that movement can only provoke once regardless of how many threatened squares you leave (per turn and per enemy, of course). Of course, single action can provoke more than one attack of opportunity, movement has a specific exception.


I'm not doubting you, Greenish, but could I get a page number? I looked it up and couldn't find it myself earlier today.

[Stront]

You're right that 15' reach threatening whip would depose spiked chain as the go-to control weapon, insofar as it's known. Dragon Magazine (I forgot the number) does have Meteor Hammer with 15' threatening reach, and despite it's obscurity is referenced often enough.
Unarmed Strike doesn't threaten unless you have IUS.

Wow, I guess even more reason to not take the Whip-Dagger for a sneak attack based character build.

[ThiefInTheNight]

Oh, boy. Guys, remember how I said that somebody who knew what they were doing could easily abuse the threatening whip? This is not that somebody.
Wow, that was completely unnecessary. Please, quit the insults; it's really just not appropriate.


I know. The post you're attempting to make a fool of was a response, outlining the repercussions of house-ruling that they do.
That was not clear from your post. I may have missed the context that you were responding to, however.


A point of contention,
Actually, no, it's not; it's quite clearly and explicitly spelled out... in Rules Compendium, IIRC? It's definitely out there somewhere.


but the point was that they would be tripped on their first movement, provoking more attacks as they fall and get up, and then have to continue their move action on a separate turn, once again provoking attacks because its a different action.
That is true; I'll admit I had not thought of that.


You know what happens when you assume, of course.
I was referring to two component feats of most lockdown builds. One which increases your reach by five feet, and another which denies the movement that provoked the AoO if it hits. Hence, not be allowing within the reach of a 20 foot whip=being kept at 25 feet.
Tripping is far from perfect (there are lots of things that you cannot reasonably trip, and some that are out-right impossible), and Stand Still is quite limited in its application (since it replaces your damage).


Except that the whip loses a great deal of its momentum when you hit a resistant object solidly.
Not... if you're doing it right? You want a whipping motion with a whip. It doesn't hit things hard, it hits things fast. Of course, most of the time you would not be using a 15' long whip in combat.


Also "approaching is a painful proposition" is hilarious when taken in context, with humans that can survive consumption by dragon, especially when, if we're continuing a real-world scenario here, a whip is completely useless in close-quarters.
A whip is useless in close quarters, no doubt about that. However, I'd already noted that a whip does not cause serious injury — only a painful one. This is a fact. There is a reason why whips are used as torture devices. This is why whips in D&D deal nonlethal damage: it won't literally stop you, just hurt you. Pain being treated as nonlethal damage has plenty of precedent within D&D.

[Ursus the Grim]

Wow, that was completely unnecessary. Please, quit the insults; it's really just not appropriate.
My apologies. It was not meant as an insult. It was meant to imply that you were not a min-maxing cheesy munchkin power gamer, and thus probably weren't thinking like one. I don't see how that could be construed as an insult.


That was not clear from your post. I may have missed the context that you were responding to, however.
Fair enough.


Actually, no, it's not; it's quite clearly and explicitly spelled out... in Rules Compendium, IIRC? It's definitely out there somewhere.
Like I asked Greenish, I would really appreciate a page number for this. I've currently bogged down my computer with a GIS program and Civilization V, so I'd like to know exactly where it is before I download another book on my horrific campus network.


That is true; I'll admit I had not thought of that.
I could have been clearer.


Tripping is far from perfect (there are lots of things that you cannot reasonably trip, and some that are out-right impossible), and Stand Still is quite limited in its application (since it replaces your damage).

This is true, but I was speaking for purposes of a specific build. The spiked chain (currently favored) faces the same limitation. Though I can think of more things that are resistant to damage as opposed to things that cannot be tripped.

And, it would be crippling to lose that 1d3 nonlethal base damage that you aren't getting if your target has any notable armor. Though I guess that's part of the reason you're going with the dagger.

I'm glad we came to an amicable consensus on a few things, though.

[Greenish]

Wow, I guess even more reason to not take the Whip-Dagger for a sneak attack based character build.Sad but true. However, quite a similar option presents itself in DMG: Kusari-gama. It has mostly the same functionality as the spiked chain, but is a light weapon (so you could even wield two of them, like my avatar :smalltongue:).

[Edit]:
Like I asked Greenish, I would really appreciate a page number for this.Ah, missed that. I usually just use SRD, but I'll dig it up.

[Edit]: PHB page 138. Surprisingly, it's in the very section that describes how attacks of opportunity work, who'd have thought of that?

[Xtomjames]

In D&D 3.5 Whips do threaten at a 5 foot range as though you're wielding an improvised light weapon or as if you are wearing a spiked gauntlet (that only does bludgeoning), just as any other light simple weapon.

A dagger whip actually should threaten for AoO as it can now do lethal damage unlike a normal whip. Without proficiencies in improvised weapons and the exotic weapons area though it's more or less a crap shoot.

The reason why a whip doesn't threaten for AoO is twofold, it's a reach weapon and it can't cause lethal damage (though as a garrote it could...irony).

The line from the whip section that says it doesn't threaten is also a carry over from 3.0 where it was a ranged weapon (as per a bow or crossbow), I'm not certain, but I do believe this line was errata'd out of the PHB all together, stipulating that you could only threaten with a weapon that does lethal damage. This is why people normally don't get AoO while unarmed, punches and kicks unless you're specifically trained, can't cause lethal damage. I believe there is a further section on this in several books (DMG 1 and 2, the Arms and Equipment Guide, Unearthed Arcana, and the PHBII).

In general the rule is, weapons that only cause subdual damage can't threaten for AoO, while weapons that cause lethal damage can threaten for AoO so long as they're melee weapons. In which case the whip dagger would threaten as a reach weapon up to 15 feet.

[Ursus the Grim]

[Edit]: PHB page 138. Surprisingly, it's in the very section that describes how attacks of opportunity work, who'd have thought of that?

Ah, there it is, practically the last sentence in a section that starts on the previous page. Thanks. Though the issue doesn't come up often (Reach monsters with Combat Reflexes?), its useful to know.

[Greenish]

The reason why a whip doesn't threaten for AoO is twofold, it's a reach weapon and it can't cause lethal damage (though as a garrote it could...irony).No, you're just inventing rules that don't exist out of thin air. Whips do not threaten because they specifically say so. Reach weapons threaten the squares you can attack. Weapons that deal nonlethal damage (such as saps and truncheons) threaten normally.

[ThiefInTheNight]

My apologies. It was not meant as an insult. It was meant to imply that you were not a min-maxing cheesy munchkin power gamer, and thus probably weren't thinking like one. I don't see how that could be construed as an insult.
It was unnecessarily antagonistic, in my opinion. Perhaps in part because I do tend to think of myself as having a reasonable degree of system mastery.


This is true, but I was speaking for purposes of a specific build. The spiked chain (currently favored) faces the same limitation. Though I can think of more things that are resistant to damage as opposed to things that cannot be tripped.
Anything that flies without wings or moves without legs (snakes, etc.). And larger quadrupeds quickly become very, very difficult to trip...


And, it would be crippling to lose that 1d3 nonlethal base damage that you aren't getting if your target has any notable armor. Though I guess that's part of the reason you're going with the dagger.
Indeed, and also, I'd misremembered Stand Still as basing its DC on the damage you would have dealt (it's actually based on your damage roll, which implies it ignores things like the armor restriction and DR).


I'm glad we came to an amicable consensus on a few things, though.
Indeed.

[Greenish]

Ah, there it is, practically the last sentence in a section that starts on the previous page. Thanks. Though the issue doesn't come up often (Reach monsters with Combat Reflexes?), its useful to know.Walking past a medium opponent with no reach, you leave three squares that are threatened. Not such an unlike situation.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html) might be (Burlew even makes the same mistake as you, so you're in good company :smalltongue:).

[Cerlis]

Except that the whip loses a great deal of its momentum when you hit a resistant object solidly. Also "approaching is a painful proposition" is hilarious when taken in context, with humans that can survive consumption by dragon, especially when, if we're continuing a real-world scenario here, a whip is completely useless in close-quarters.

this is really just a giant can of worms regarding intelligent roleplay vs. Metagaming.

[Boci]

In D&D 3.5 Whips do threaten at a 5 foot range as though you're wielding an improvised light weapon or as if you are wearing a spiked gauntlet (that only does bludgeoning), just as any other light simple weapon.

A dagger whip actually should threaten for AoO as it can now do lethal damage unlike a normal whip. Without proficiencies in improvised weapons and the exotic weapons area though it's more or less a crap shoot.

The reason why a whip doesn't threaten for AoO is twofold, it's a reach weapon and it can't cause lethal damage (though as a garrote it could...irony).

The line from the whip section that says it doesn't threaten is also a carry over from 3.0 where it was a ranged weapon (as per a bow or crossbow), I'm not certain, but I do believe this line was errata'd out of the PHB all together, stipulating that you could only threaten with a weapon that does lethal damage. This is why people normally don't get AoO while unarmed, punches and kicks unless you're specifically trained, can't cause lethal damage. I believe there is a further section on this in several books (DMG 1 and 2, the Arms and Equipment Guide, Unearthed Arcana, and the PHBII).

In general the rule is, weapons that only cause subdual damage can't threaten for AoO, while weapons that cause lethal damage can threaten for AoO so long as they're melee weapons. In which case the whip dagger would threaten as a reach weapon up to 15 feet.

This post reminds me of something. Here we go: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11581318&postcount=12

[Xtomjames]

First off, there are plenty of rules that apply to non-lethal damage weapons that don't allow you to threaten a space of AoO.

Two, your link and point about my post on sneak attacks and oozes are moot, and I'll stand by what I said about sneak attacking oozes. It is possible if you overcome what allows them not to be sneak attacked. However, I'm not going to argue the point here.

You say I'm making up rules but I paraphrased a lot of what I said in my earlier post straight from the PHB on AoO in regards to unarmed attacks, which is their ONLY example besides the standard whip and RANGED weapons that don't threaten the space.

However there are other weapons in game that only do non-lethal damage that cannot threaten during AoO. Read the Arms and Equipment guide if you don't believe me.

[Greenish]

First off, there are plenty of rules that apply to non-lethal damage weapons that don't allow you to threaten a space of AoO.Really? Lets see you cite actual rules then, which book, which page?


You say I'm making up rules but I paraphrased a lot of what I said in my earlier post straight from the PHB on AoO in regards to unarmed attacksThe only thing you got right is that you don't threaten with unarmed strike without IUS.


However there are other weapons in game that only do non-lethal damage that cannot threaten during AoO. Read the Arms and Equipment guide if you don't believe me.Aside from being 3.0 splat that doesn't really deal with combat rules, it's also a big book. Please refer to a page.


[Edit]: Getting the actual rules mixed with house rules of a group you've been playing for a long time is understandable. Refusing to acknowledge this when it is pointed out is a bit silly, though.

[Boci]

Two, your link and point about my post on sneak attacks and oozes are moot, and I'll stand by what I said about sneak attacking oozes. It is possible if you overcome what allows them not to be sneak attacked. However, I'm not going to argue the point here.

As houserules go what you said in that thread (or this one) was not unreasonable. But they are houserules.


However there are other weapons in game that only do non-lethal damage that cannot threaten during AoO. Read the Arms and Equipment guide if you don't believe me.

All I found was blunt arrows and a mighty whip. Did I miss anything?

[Greenish]

All I found was blunt arrows and a mighty whip. Did I miss anything?Ah, those. I don't see what they have to do with his claim, but eh.

[ThiefInTheNight]

The reason that the whip doesn't threaten is almost certainly due to game balance concerns. Area-lockdown with the Spiked Chain or Guisarme is already quite good; a Whip could maybe be a tad ridiculous?

I mean, it's hard to say. Whip as-is is definitely not worth anything. Bards get it for free, which can be fun (it's a one-handed slashing weapon with reach... Snowflake Wardance, anyone? Kusari-Gama's still better, but costs you a feat), but other than that, it doesn't serve much purpose. Spiked Chain itself is only kind of worth a feat. Is a Whip-that-threatens too good for a feat? I dunno. It would be extremely good for any lock-down build, really.

[Curmudgeon]

In D&D 3.5 Whips do threaten at a 5 foot range as though you're wielding an improvised light weapon or as if you are wearing a spiked gauntlet (that only does bludgeoning), just as any other light simple weapon.
Well, that's clearly a house rule rather than RAW.
The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes). The description states that you can use a whip at adjacent ("5 foot range") foes, and you don't threaten the area in which you can make an attack, including those adjacent squares.

Improvised Weapons

Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Since whips are listed as regular (crafted for the purpose, not improvised) melee weapons in the rules, improvised melee weapons rules cannot apply.

Also "just as any other light simple weapon" includes unarmed strikes, which do not normally threaten. So I guess you got that part right. :smallwink:

[ThiefInTheNight]

Actually, a question. The rules state that an AoO is a melee attack. They also state that in order to make one, you must threaten the square in question. You also must obviously be able to reach the square you are attacking with the weapon you use to attack.

However, as far as I have seen, nowhere does it say that the weapon you make the AoO with must threaten the square in which the target is provoking. That is to say, if you have a spiked gauntlet or IUS or some melee weapon in the other hand, and a whip, it seems to me that you could make an AoO with the whip if someone adjacent provoked: you dothreaten the square, you are making a melee attack, and the weapon you are using can reach the target.

Now, obviously this is almost-certainly-not intended. That said, does anyone know if there is actually any rule written that restricts you to making the AoO with the weapon that threatens?

This probably makes no difference whatsoever, seeing as it only affects Whips and would not be a major/important use of a Whip (though ironically it actually has come up once for me in a real game, but the DM heard what I wanted and said "yeah, whatever, that's fine" without really caring about what the rules said, because she considered it to be fine).

[gallagher]

is there a prestige class ability or feat that would allow someone to threaten an area with their bow? because if the wording of that ability were ambiguous enough, then it may apply to the whip

[Curmudgeon]

However, as far as I have seen, nowhere does it say that the weapon you make the AoO with must threaten the square in which the target is provoking.
There's no requirement that the weapon you threaten with must be the same as the weapon you make the attack of opportunity with. You can threaten with a piercing or slashing weapon and make a normal (not Improved) unarmed strike against a skeleton, for instance (provoking an AoO in turn from that skeleton for your unarmed attack, but bypassing its DR).

is there a prestige class ability or feat that would allow someone to threaten an area with their bow? because if the wording of that ability were ambiguous enough, then it may apply to the whip
Dragon # 350 has the Ranged Threat feat, but it's very limited in its use (only 15' range, and only one ranged AoO per round regardless of the number of AoOs you're permitted). This could make for an effective combination: Ranged Threat would allow use of a thrown weapon (such as a dagger) to threaten, then the whip could be used to make the attack of opportunity. You wouldn't use up the ranged AoO at all unless you threw the dagger.

[Talya]

Dragon # 350 has the Ranged Threat feat, but it's very limited in its use (only 15' range, and only one ranged AoO per round regardless of the number of AoOs you're permitted). This could make for an effective combination: Ranged Threat would allow use of a thrown weapon (such as a dagger) to threaten, then the whip could be used to make the attack of opportunity. You wouldn't use up the ranged AoO at all unless you threw the dagger.

That's rather brilliant.