Any Advice on Making the Fighter Class Better?

[wayfare]

I am gearing up for a campaign that uses mostly hombrewed classes designed by myself and my friends and aimed at the tier 3-4 bracket. As you can imagine, spellcasting has really been nerfed, and other classes get nifty supernatural tricks as feats that only they can take (a feat that allows rogues, and only rogues, to be come invisible by making a stealth check is a good example of what we aimed at).

And so, after doing all this designing, we come to the fighter. Most loathed of the base classes (excepting the Truenamer), this poor guy just can't get a break.

We want to preserve the fighters status as "the feat guy," but give him some cool tricks of his own. Some of these will come in the form of supernatural or extraordinary class features. Others will be fighter only feats. We're looking for suggestions. Here are a few ideas we have so far.

Mortal Attack: Allow the fighter to make an attack that requires a fort save or instant death. A successful save only inflicts double weapon damage.

Extra Damage Pool: The fighter a pool od d6s he can add to successful attacks. These are spent on a daily basis, with a cap of (level d6 on a successful attack).

Unavoidable Attack: The fighter can spend a full attack action to do double weapon damage to an opponent, or half damage on a failed save.

[Gullintanni]

Mortal Attack: Allow the fighter to make an attack that requires a fort save or instant death. A successful save only inflicts double weapon damage.

Extra Damage Pool: The fighter a pool od d6s he can add to successful attacks. These are spent on a daily basis, with a cap of (level d6 on a successful attack).

Unavoidable Attack: The fighter can spend a full attack action to do double weapon damage to an opponent, or half damage on a failed save.

The core flaws of the Fighter class have very little to do with damage output, so I don't see any of your proposed fixes really solving the problem. My first suggestion is to use the Pathfinder Fighter. It offers a slightly improved chassis to build on, with actual class abilities besides feats.

After that, if I were homebrewing, I'd suggest designing feats or class abilities that focus on dealing with things like enemy fliers, AMFs, concealment, rough terrain (for chargers), and maybe a means to draw aggro.

[TehLivingDeath]

So we're looking for a Fighter replacement around Tier 3 with interesing expendable abilities, up to and including quasi-magical ones...

I can't think of anything.:smallsmile:

[Siosilvar]

Take a cue here from Tome of Battle. Maneuvers let these characters jump twice as high as normal, make ranged attacks with melee weapons, shrug off negative status effects, make touch attacks, inflict debuffs and so on.

The fighter doesn't need more damage (TWF and single weapon might, though). The fighter needs more ways to make that damage applicable - some way of dealing with flying, invisible, tunneling, stronger-than-you, etc. enemies without resorting to magic items.

[Amphetryon]

Obligatory "have you considered Warblade" comment.

Fighter needs more skill points, badly. Fighter needs skills related to being, for example, a caravan guard (Spot, Listen, Sense Motive) to be class skills in order to be useful as, for example, a caravan guard. Fighter needs something besides "I swing my sword REAL HARD" to make it distinguishable from other martial types; what that something is for your campaign world should guide you in what sort of fixes are most appropriate.

[wayfare]

Obligatory "have you considered Warblade" comment.

Fighter needs more skill points, badly. Fighter needs skills related to being, for example, a caravan guard (Spot, Listen, Sense Motive) to be class skills in order to be useful as, for example, a caravan guard. Fighter needs something besides "I swing my sword REAL HARD" to make it distinguishable from other martial types; what that something is for your campaign world should guide you in what sort of fixes are most appropriate.

For skills, we were thinking something like 4 + Int, and the ability to choose any 3 skills as class skills.

We were also considering instituting "skill knacks" -- supernatural applications os skills that you get if you have that skill as a class skill and have 10 or more ranks in it. So Jump, for example, might allow you to make wuxia style leaps.

Another idea: better saves for the fighter (probably reflex = good) as well as evasion and mettle.

[NecroRick]

We want to preserve the fighters status as "the feat guy,"


Simple: give him a bonus feat every level, and do not restrict these feats to the fighter list, let him take _anything_.

There's your feat-monkey, and with everything feats can do it should bump him up into skill-monkey territory as far as the tiers (or whatever arbitrary measure of power/utility/flexibility you are using) is concerned.

-----

If that isn't enough, ban flaws. That'll sort the men from the boys... :D ...at least as far as the feats are concerned anyway.

[Godskook]

I suggest you read the Ascendant feats in my signature. Surprisingly, they push Fighter into at least the border between tier 2/3 territory, possibly higher. Not all of them are battle-ready, but most should be, and it'll keep the fighter working like a fighter.

(Oh, and for most loathed base classes, fighter doesn't even hit the top 5, since CW Samurai, CA Ninja, Monk, Soulknife, Soulborn, Truenamer, and Healer all hedge him out, not all weaker, but all more loathsome due to how fail their abilities are at doing what they want to do, compared to more core options. Fighter, by comparison, is well designed, oddly).

[Urpriest]

Warblades are the "feat guy" in ToB really, since none of the others get their bonus feat progression, so that fluff works alright.

More usefully: I'd make a few fighter-only tactical feats that expand options. For example, a Pin Their Wings feat that lets someone jump onto a flying enemy and make them unable to fly for the encounter by messing with whatever natural/magical means they have of doing so. Perhaps a feat that replicates the extreme reach of melee characters in Legend, where reach represents ability to move around the battlefield rather than strict arm length. Some out of combat utility, like a feat that substitutes BAB for social rolls or perception skills. Access to immunities and the like via making trophies out of foes (for example, use a Wight's heart for a trophy of Death Ward).

[Lans]

Make him a few feat trees along the lines of the rangers and give it to him on the odd levels, and let him qualify for them even if he doesn't meet the prereqs

Include feats that have high requirements for stats, and ones that require a higher BAB.

Also poach various fighter ACFs, Sub levels and pathfinder

[wayfare]

So would feats granting fortification and reducing ability damage be useful? As for active denial effects, how about a class feature that allows the fighter do eliminate an opponents (Ex) abilities?

[Lateral]

(Oh, and for most loathed base classes, fighter doesn't even hit the top 5, since CW Samurai, CA Ninja, Monk, Soulknife, Soulborn, Truenamer, and Healer all hedge him out, not all weaker, but all more loathsome due to how fail their abilities are at doing what they want to do, compared to more core options. Fighter, by comparison, is well designed, oddly).

You forgot Divine Mind. Trust me, it's worse than a Soulborn.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Step 1: Full attack as a standard action. Fighter class feature.
Step 2: Improve/increase skill list.
Step 3: Good Will Save
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Profit!

They're actually not bad at hitting things in the face, and (1) solves a lot of their problems in that area. The rest is just shoring up obvious weaknesses. You can definitely add more without breaking the game.

[wayfare]

You forgot Divine Mind. Trust me, it's worse than a Soulborn.

It can be fun, in a kludgy sort of way.

[BlueInc]

There are several awesome homebrew fighter "fixes" on the forums. My search function is giving me a 500 internal server error or I'd look them up for you.

[Lateral]

It can be fun, in a kludgy sort of way.

So can all of the others on that list except Truenamer, honestly. The Divine Mind is generally loathed less because it's bad (which it certainly is, but still), but because it absolutely butchers the flavor of psionics.

[Amphetryon]

So can all of the others on that list except Truenamer, honestly. The Divine Mind is generally loathed less because it's bad (which it certainly is, but still), but because it absolutely butchers the flavor of psionics.

The fact that it's a Psionic class that can fall is. . . headdesk worthy.

[wayfare]

The fact that it's a Psionic class that can fall is. . . headdesk worthy.

Alignment is just a mindset.

<crickets>

[Zaq]

So can all of the others on that list except Truenamer, honestly. The Divine Mind is generally loathed less because it's bad (which it certainly is, but still), but because it absolutely butchers the flavor of psionics.

I once made an Iron Chef Appetizer character who was a Divine Mind who could Truename. Yeah. I went there.

[Yahzi]

Leadership.

As a class feature (starting at level 5), Fighters should get 1d4+2 1st level Warriors for free. Whenever they are killed, replacements show up the next day. Think of it as Summon Monster, only with a 24 hour duration.

[etrpgb]

My idea of Fighter.

Bonus Feat at first level and every even level. First and second level Feat are from the Fighter list, the others are free. Of course you need to qualify.

Martial Training at level 3: A Fighter consider his abilities higher of half his level (rounded down) for the purpose of satisfying Feat requisites. E.g., a Fighter of level 6 with 10 of Intelligence qualifies for Combat Expertise.
Uncanny Dodge at level 5.
Mettle at level 7.
Improved Uncanny Dodge at level 9.
Move normally in any Armor at level 11.
Prescient Sense at level 13 (as Divine Oracle).
+10 feet to speed at level 15.
Immune to Surprise at level 17 (as Divine Oracle).
Doubled Reach at level 19.
Ignore Fortification at level 20: Fighters consider fortifications halved. Undead for example are considered with 50% fortification instead of 100%.
The armor check penalty reduces of -1 every three levels (min 0, of course).

Saving Throws as Cleric.

Finally I add Spot, Listen and Tumble to the ability list.

Maybe 4 skill points per level, but if you also put this change I would put 4 to everyone now has 2.

[Grim Reader]

I've been working on this for a while, off and on. But it is far from ready. So far my solution is twofold:

1) Tome of Battle manuvers sorted through and refluffed. Drop the most obviously supernatural stuff, refluff the rest to be grittier and less anime. Every manuver can be picked up as a feat by anyone, but with a minimum-BaB prerequisite. Since the Fighter gets the most feats, he benefits by far the most.

2) Actually good PrCs for fighters and martial character, with prerequisites including a minimum BaB ranging from +8 to +14.

[Gullintanni]

Really, I hate to echo what everyone else here has said, and the only reason I didn't say it in my first reply is that it's not available at a lot of tables, but Tome of Battle. Play a Warblade. It's basically Fighter 2.0 - The Fixed Edition.

[etrpgb]

Unfortunately, there is also a second problem. There are no other sources of sublime classes. I agree that Tome of Battle is the martial classes as it should be, but it can be annoying.

[etrpgb]

1) Tome of Battle manuvers sorted through and refluffed. Drop the most obviously supernatural stuff, refluff the rest to be grittier and less anime.

Of course you can do what ever you want, but I disagree. If you want to remove supernatural stuff, you should start from spells. There is not sublime power that is supernatural as a Meteors Swarm.

[Grim Reader]

Of course you can do what ever you want, but I disagree. If you want to remove supernatural stuff, you should start from spells. There is not sublime power that is supernatural as a Meteors Swarm.
You misunderstand. I am not removing supernatural stuff from everyone. I am just pruning it out (or refluffing) of ToB before making the stuff avaliable to Fighters. The players I got who want to play fighters...they don't want to be some anime character, or a wizard. They want to be someone who'd be played by Clint Eastwood or Bruce Willis.
They guy who goes up against magic with skill, sword and a grim expression.

[Greenish]

Actually good PrCs for fighters and martial character, with prerequisites including a minimum BaB ranging from +8 to +14.Why? I never get why most martial PrCs seem to require 7+ BAB when casters can often enter theirs at level 4-6 (without shenanigans).

It's not like casters would start poaching goodies from melee PrCs even if they were available earlier.

[etrpgb]

No, wait... what? If the requisite is BAB +7 you must enter after level 7 if you took only levels with full bab.

Edit: sorry. Got it. Language barrier.


Btw, what do you think of the idea I posted?

[Jopustopin]

Here was my attempt: It was described as being too "top heavy" of which I disagree. I don't know why anyone would dip my fighter over a warblade dip (Iron heart surge/White Raven Tactics is an awesome dip). Also note that I put "toughness" in as a bonus feat as a joke.


My Goal:
I'm going to try to match the "fluff" of fighter from the PHB into a class that actually does what the fluff says.

Fluff:

Emphases mine. But please, read the PHB Fighter fluff to garner your own opinion.

Of all classes, fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities. Better than the warblade, barbarian, psychic warrior, shapechanged druid, etc. When it comes to fighting, this class should be the best. Furthermore: In addition to general fighting prowess, each fighter develops particular specialties of his own.

Lastly: The fighter excels in a straight fight, but he relies on others for magical support, healing, and scouting. On a team, it is HIS JOB TO MAN THE FRONT LINES, PROTECT OTHER PARTY MEMBERS, AND BRING THE TOUGH OPPONENTS DOWN.

[hr]
Skills:

4 + Int mod. per level (x4 at 1st).
Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str)
Knowledge History (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Listen (Wis), Spot (Wis), Balance (Dex), Tumble (Dex)

Fighters should have the skills to help them be good at fighting. Battlefield mobility, resistance to being feinted in combat, never caught in a battle with his pants down, a well honed ability to know the most about combat maneuvers. Stuff that we would expect the ultimate fighting class to be good at.

[hr]

Class Features

Level 1: Weapon Aptitude, Basic Training
Level 2: Weapon Focus, Bonus Feat
Level 3: Heroic Reflexes
Level 4: Weapon Specialization, Bonus Feat
Level 5: Whatever it Takes

Level 6: Combat Training
Level 7: Improved Weapon Aptitude, Bonus Feat
Level 8: Heroic Fortitude
Level 9: Improved Critical, Bonus Feat
Level 10: Know the Battlefield

Level 11: Advanced Training
Level 12: Supreme Weapon Aptitude, Bonus Feat
Level 13: Heroic Willpower
Level 14: Exotic Weapon Proficiency, Bonus Feat
Level 15: Own the Battlefield

Level 16: Fighting Mastery, Bonus Feat
Level 17: Weapon Aptitude Mastery, Bonus Feat
Level 18: Legendary Heroics, Bonus Feat
Level 19: Weapon Supremecy, Bonus Feat
Level 20: Supreme Fighter , Bonus feat


What do those cool words mean?

Weapon and Armor Aptitude At 1st level a fighter can spend 1 hour in weapon, armor, or shield practice to change the designated weapon, armor, or shield for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon, armor, or shield. You must have the newly designated weapon, armor, or shield available during your practice session to make this change.
At 7th level a fighter need only spend a full round action to change the designated weapon, armor, or shield for any feat.
At 12th level a fighter need only spend a move action to change the designated weapon, armor, or shield for any feat.
At 17th level any feat that applies only to a single weapon now applies to any weapon the fighter is currently making an attack with. In effect the feat's weapon designation switches automatically whenever the fighter makes an attack. Furthermore any feat that applies only to a single type of armor or shield now applies to any armor or shield the fighter is currently gaining an armor bonus from.

Heroic Reflexes: As an immediate action after failing a reflex save a fighter may select any effect that is currently affecting him, has a duration expressed in rounds, and is the result of failing a reflex save. With a successful saving throw (at the original DC) that affect ends immediately and then the fighter may take a move action as part of this action. If the fighter moves five feet or less during his move action then it does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Heroic Fortitude: As an immediate action after failing a fortitude save a fighter may select any effect that is currently affecting him, has a duration expressed in rounds, and is the result of failing a fortitude save. With a successful saving throw (at the original DC) that affect ends immediately and then the fighter may take a move action as part of this action. If the fighter moves five feet or less during his move action then it does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Heroic Willpower: As an immediate action after failing a will save a fighter may select any effect that is currently affecting him, has a duration expressed in rounds, and is the result of failing a will save. With a successful saving throw (at the original DC) that affect ends immediately and then the fighter may take a move action as part of this action. If the fighter moves five feet or less during his move action then it does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Basic Training: A fighter spends years training in all forms of combat. One never knows what weapons will end up in your hands. Of all classes, fighters have the best all-around fighting capabilities. By the time a fighter has finished his training he knows the basics of several different fighting styles. At 1st level a fighter gains the following feats: Power Attack, Two-Weapon Fighting, Shield Specialization, Point Blank Shot, Improved Unarmed Strike.

Combat Training: A fighter spends most of his free time in between adventurers practicing more advanced maneuvers. By the time a fighter has reached 6th level he has improved his all-around fighting capabilities in addition to his area of expertise. A fighter gains the following feats:
Improved Bull Rush, Two-Weapon Defense, Shield Ward, Precise Shot, Superior Unarmed Strike, and Blind-Fight. If the fighter already has one (or more) of these feats, he can select any other feat that has that feat as a prerequisite (as long as he meets the other prerequisites for the chosen feat).

Advanced Training: A fighter that advances to 11th level finds that he is still the best all around at fighting. A fighter gains the following feats: Rapid Shot, Quick Draw, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Snap Kick. If the fighter already has one (or more) of these feats, he can select any other feat that has that feat as a prerequisite (as long as he meets the other prerequisites for the chosen feat).

Fighting Mastery: A fighter of 16th level would be considered a master at any style of fighting that he picks up. He is never without weapon, and in a straight battle, is without equal. A fighter gains the following feats: Greater Two-Weapon Defense, Flying Kick, Manyshot, Improved Overrun, Heavy Armor Optimization, and Toughness. If the fighter already has one (or more) of these feats, he can select any other feat that has that feat as a prerequisite (as long as he meets the other prerequisites for the chosen feat).

Whatever it takes
Sometimes a fighter is being swallowed whole, other times he's being grappled by a Roper, whatever the case may be don't count the fighter out just yet. The battle is not over until the waste of space stops screaming. A fighter of 5th level gains the feat Improved Grapple if he did not already have this feat. He gains the use of three tactical maneuvers.
I'm still fighting here: To use this maneuver, a fighter must currently exist inside of a creature that has swallowed him whole. He is not restricted to using light piercing or slashing weapons in order to escape but still cannot use bludgeoning weapons. Furthermore the damage done to the creature's gizzard counts against the creature's total hit points. Most creatures do not try to swallow a fighter whole twice.
Stunning Escape!: To use this maneuver, a fighter must currently be grappling or pinned by an opponent. By winning an opposed grapple check a fighter may deliver a stunning unarmed strike at a -4 penalty to the grappling creatures head (-8 if the Fighter is pinned). This attack is made with a head-butt, elbow, or any other available body part. A creature who takes damage from this attack must make a fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 Fighter Class Level + Str Modifier) or be stunned until the beginning of its next turn. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
Charging Spree In order to use this maneuver a fighter must have charged an opponent and missed. If he wishes he can attempt to start a grapple as a free action.

Know the Battlefield (Ex):
A fighter is the best at fighting. He knows everything that is going on and can anticipate his opponent with uncanny prediction. It's not that the fighter is smarter or wiser than his opponents. It's that fighting is all he cares about. A fighter eats, sleeps, and dreams about kicking the snot out of hill giants. About fighting his way out of ambushes. Once initiative has been rolled the random hillside or the city street turns into the battlefield. A fighter knows the battlefield like a wizard knows her spellbook. At 10th level a fighter gains several advantages when fighting on his home turf (which is wherever he's fighting).
The fighter gains the following abilities:
No Place Like Home: A fighter cannot be an unaware combatant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/initiative.htm). He rolls initiative whenever anyone else does (but only once per battle obviously).
Improved Uncanny Dodge: Furthermore his knowledge of the battlefield borders on the supernatural. He has seen so much fighting that he knows exactly what his opponents are up to and can react appropriately. A fighter gains Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Too Predictable:Also, any time a creature makes an attack that the fighter can see or feel the fighter can make a sense motive check opposed by the creatures bluff check. If the fighter wins he gains blindsight 120 ft. against ONLY that creature until the end of the fighters next turn.
Know the Pieces: He can tell just by the way his allies move how many hit points they are at. Against any creature that he successfully identified with the appropriate knowledge check, the fighter may take a move action to determine how many hit points the creature has. It is not metagaming to keep track of damage that the players have done to know how close to victory you are.

Own the Battlefield
It's not enough to know the battlefield. Any true fighter struts around the place like he's been living there for the last 15 levels. Oh yeah, that's right. He has. When initiative has been rolled, the fighter welcomes everyone to his home. And as long as your living here, under his roof, you play by his rules.
First and Foremost: After all other effects have been calculated the Fighter goes first in combat. If there are two or more fighters with this ability they will roll separate initiative to see which of them goes first.
Supreme Blade Parry: The fighter was the first to develop this stance later stolen by the Iron Heart discipline. While you are in this stance you gain damage reduction 5/-.
Bring the Fight Home: A fighter can start a grapple any time that he successfully makes a melee attack. If his weapon has reach, then the fighter uses the weapon itself to begin the grapple, and moves with arms reach of his opponent on a successful grapple check.
Disrupting Flow: A fighter can make an attack of opportunity against opponents who let there guard down, even for a split second. Swift Actions and Immediate Actions provoke attacks of opportunity if they are spells or spell-like abilities and may be disrupted as normal. Five foot steps provoke attacks of opportunity.



This is the direction I would go when rebuilding a fighter class. I personally do not know enough about high levels to give the fighter abilities that address the weaknesses at these levels.

[etrpgb]

You misunderstand. I am not removing supernatural stuff from everyone. I am just pruning it out (or refluffing) of ToB before making the stuff avaliable to Fighters. The players I got who want to play fighters...they don't want to be some anime character, or a wizard. They want to be someone who'd be played by Clint Eastwood or Bruce Willis.
They guy who goes up against magic with skill, sword and a grim expression.

Sorry, what is the difference between remove and prune? But I got better what you meant.

About my point, the base idea of the Tome of Battle is that D&D authors suddenly noticed the D&D adventures are set in a magic world. It was strange that martial types never used magic and wrote a rule book with this idea. I actually found this fun since the time of D&D first edition, so powerful magic and bunch of idiots that use nothing of such a force.

Now, if you think it is not your idea of fantasy. Because, for example, you like more a grittier ruthless world where magic is scarce I think it is better starting toning down casters. Obvious examples include:
- slow down magic: if casting speed was swift actions it becomes movement action, standard action becomes full round.
- remove obviously strong spells like Solid/Acid Fog.
- make every full caster (including Clerics, Druids, Shugenja) have d4.

Now that magic is weaker and probably rarer (less player will want to play it) you can also tone down the martial adepts.

[Greyfeld]

1) Tome of Battle manuvers sorted through and refluffed. Drop the most obviously supernatural stuff, refluff the rest to be grittier and less anime. Every manuver can be picked up as a feat by anyone, but with a minimum-BaB prerequisite. Since the Fighter gets the most feats, he benefits by far the most.


But Martial Study and Martial Stance are already feats which grant you access to maneuvers and stances. Your idea just nerfed the fighter >.>


2) Actually good PrCs for fighters and martial character, with prerequisites including a minimum BaB ranging from +8 to +14.

So, your idea to BUFF the fighter is to give him a better reason to PrC as early as possible?

...
http://static.divbyzero.nl/facepalm/doublefacepalm.jpg

[Grim Reader]

Why? I never get why most martial PrCs seem to require 7+ BAB when casters can often enter theirs at level 4-6 (without shenanigans).

It's not like casters would start poaching goodies from melee PrCs even if they were available earlier.

Several reasons:

1) Whereas in games with skilled optimizers the Fighter get left behind by higher tier classes quite early, my impression is that in the majority of games, it happens later. A Fighter player normally feels she is contributing untill level 7 +, and in low optimization games may feel adequate for even longer.

I want the PrCs options to "slot in" as the Fighter feels himself getting overshadowed in a normal optimization game.

2) There are few good PrC options for high-level Fighters and other melee classes. Like feats, they peak early.

3) I want to keep abilities level-appropriate.

4) I don't want non-melee classes to easily poach goodies. I am not opposed to unusual builds, but with bloodlines, Uncanny Trickster, etc, it is quite easy for other classes to grab a lot of abilities off a single level investment.

I am aiming for PrCs that'll hit tier 3, slightly above the Duskblade. I don't neccessarily want Rogues, Warlocks, Factotums, Bards, etc to easily grab the goodies. If it is available to everyone, it does not help the melee classes relative power.

Also, for high-level characters, the supernatural is an option. Several classes have abilities that may indeed be poached by casters, by taking one level in the PrC, the slapping on a double-advancement class.

[Grim Reader]

But Martial Study and Martial Stance are already feats which grant you access to maneuvers and stances. Your idea just nerfed the fighter >.>
n
Only if ToB was allowed and played beforehand. (In which case you just rename the Warblade "Fighter"and have done. No need for a fix). Which is a no, since as set, it doesn't fit either the flavor or history of my world. I know many DMs who won't allow it on simple "You got anime in my medieval fantasy" revulsion.

What I'm doing is making it medieval fantasy for non-magic users.


So, your idea to BUFF the fighter is to give him a better reason to PrC as early as possible?
...
http://static.divbyzero.nl/facepalm/doublefacepalm.jpg

No. (It is often smart to read the post you are replying to instead of covering your eyes. Knowing what you are replying to makes poasts better)

It is to add options at the point where he falls off the cart in terms of usefullness. "As soon as possible" would not come with prerequisites limiting entry to level 8-9. I'll post some example later, when I have an hour free.

[Greenish]

What I'm doing is making it medieval fantasy for non-magic users.That's what warblade and (depending on how you handle HP) crusader are for. Swordsage, eh, rename it Swordmage if it bugs you and accept it's magical.

[Curmudgeon]

The Fighter class is based on Fighter Bonus Feats (FBFs). The way to improve the class is to offer better FBFs, with Fighter level requirements (a la Weapon Specialization) so they won't just improve every class. Changing the chassis (class features) otherwise just leads to all Fighters being alike, which is undesirable.

[Greyfeld]

To be honest, one of my ideas to give fighters a boost in power is to give them some "weapon abilities." Effects granted based on the type of weapon they decide to use. These are just a handful of ideas:

Bludgeoning Weapons
These abilities may only be used in conjunction with a bludgeoning-type weapon

Concussive Blow - By expending your Swift action, your next attack is made with massive force. This attack deals double damage. If this attack hits, and the target is no more than one size category larger than the fighter, it must make a Fort Save (10 + 1/2 BAB + Strength Modifier) or become dazed for one round. The fighter may not use this ability with a light weapon.

Blunt Trauma - Whenever a creature that has been damaged by the fighter since its last turn attempts to use a spell, spell-like ability, power, or psi-like ability, it must make a Concentration check against 1/2 the damage sustained from the fighter, or fail casting the spell.
Piercing Weapons
These abilities may only be used in conjunction with a piercing-type weapon.

Twist the Knife - By expending your Swift action, you twist your weapon inside the wound caused by your next attack. This attack deals normal damage, but causes severe bleeding. At then end of the target's turn, it takes bleeding damage equal to your weapon's damage dice + your Strength modifier. This wound continues to bleed round after round until the target dies, or is healed. Multiple wounds from Twist the Knife stack with each other. This ability can only be used against living creatures with discernible anatomies.

Pierce the Defenses - Whenever you make an attack, your weapon plunges straight through the enemy's defenses. Before you make an attack roll, subtract your Strength or Dexterity modifier (whichever is higher) from your target's totaled armor and natural armor AC bonuses. Your attack is made against this new AC total. Pierce the Defenses can never reduce a target's armor or natural armor bonuses below zero.
Slashing Weapons
These abilities may only be used in conjunction with a slashing-type weapon.

Cut the Tendons - By expending you Swift action, you make a precise strike that slashes deep into the tendons on your next attack. This attack deals normal damage, but hampers the target's mobility. One mode of movement (of your choice) has its speed reduced by 1/2. This wound hinders the target's movement until the target dies or is healed. Multiple wounds from Cut the Tendons stack with each other. This ability can only be used against living creatures with discernible anatomies.

Lacerate - Every attack you land leaves a stinging wound that distracts the enemy from fighting effectively. Whenever the fighter lands an attack with his weapon, the target takes a -1 penalty to its AC, attack rolls, and saving throws. Attacks made while wielding a weapon two-handed (not light weapons) increase the penalties to -2 per attack. The penalties from these wounds stack with each other, and last one round.

I've always thought it would be interesting to do something, if not exactly like this, then somewhat similar. I think WotC really missed a lot of potential by not giving each different weapon type different effects, especially in the hand of a weapons master, like the fighter.

[Greyfeld]

n
Only if ToB was allowed and played beforehand. (In which case you just rename the Warblade "Fighter"and have done. No need for a fix). Which is a no, since as set, it doesn't fit either the flavor or history of my world. I know many DMs who won't allow it on simple "You got anime in my medieval fantasy" revulsion.

What I'm doing is making it medieval fantasy for non-magic users.

What you're doing is taking a roleplaying system that's engorged with magic, and trying to surgically remove all the magic with a rusty butter knife. If you want a purely martial game, there are plenty of other systems that do it better and don't require you to expend countless hours completely butchering a set of balanced source material.




No. (It is often smart to read the post you are replying to instead of covering your eyes. Knowing what you are replying to makes poasts better)

It is to add options at the point where he falls off the cart in terms of usefullness. "As soon as possible" would not come with prerequisites limiting entry to level 8-9. I'll post some example later, when I have an hour free.

You're right, I apologize. Your fix doesn't require PrCing 'as soon as possible.' It requires taking 3x more levels than usual of a subpar class that's known as "only good for dipping," so that you're even further behind the curve when all the spellcasters have been flying around for two levels.

[Grim Reader]

What you're doing is taking a roleplaying system that's engorged with magic, and trying to surgically remove all the magic with a rusty butter knife. If you want a purely martial game, there are plenty of other systems that do it better and don't require you to expend countless hours completely butchering a set of balanced source material.

Er...balanced source material? Are we talking about the same system here? And I am not sure if you are not confusing me with another poster, if you think I'm "trying to remove all the magic from the system." You may be replying to someone else.

I'm trying to add options to the melee classes without turning them into yet another set of supernatural force wielders. Because it is hardly a Fighter fix to turn the Fighter into yet anoher spellcaster. (Going into supernatural options is fine for high-level characters, but at lower levels, it is not how I'd fix melee. If I wanted Ars Magical, I'd play Ars Magica.


You're right, I apologize. Your fix doesn't require PrCing 'as soon as possible.' It requires taking 3x more levels than usual of a subpar class that's known as "only good for dipping," so that you're even further behind the curve when all the spellcasters have been flying around for two levels.

And making a class better is what we are trying to do to that subpar class. So it is not "just good for dipping". That is what this thread is about.

Adding good feat choices with tasty fluff, and better high-level options seem to be the way to go to me.

I am not quite sure why you feel so strongly about the ToB fluff as opposed to the mechanichs, or that melee should not have level-appropriate PrCs. (Unless you feel there are some out there for levels 10 +?)

[Greenish]

Er...balanced source material? Are we talking about the same system here?I think he's talking about ToB specifically, here.

[Grim Reader]

I think he's talking about ToB specifically, here.

Oh I see. But while ToB is internally balanced, it is not balanced against the system is is intended to be played with, if you see what I mean. ToB classes are flat out better than the Fighter, Ranger, Paladin etc.

You can simply rename the Crusader "Paladin" the Warblade "Fighter" and be done. But if you actually want to make the base melee classes better, you're going to need to do something else.

EDIT for clarity: ToB replaces the melee classes, it does not fix them. And the fluff of the replacement do not mix well with every campaign.

[Greenish]

But while ToB is internally balanced, it is not balanced against the system is is intended to be played with, if you see what I mean.Well, ToB is pretty well balanced when talking about 3.5 as a whole. If you only compare it to core melee, it's on the strong side, but I have a firm opinion on which of the two entities is the unbalanced one. :smallamused:


You can simply rename the Crusader "Paladin" the Warblade "Fighter" and be done.Yeah, that's an option. I don't know why get stuck on the names of the classes, even. Keep the options (since that's 3.5's main strength, if the other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214410) is any indication), treat classes as metagame constructs, bam, done.


ToB replaces the melee classes, it does not fix them.Well, ToB multiclasses well. Most likely you won't be more than dipping the core melee, but then, that's what you'd have done anyway.


And the fluff of the replacement do not mix well with every campaign.If you rename warblade to fighter, obviously it fits anywhere a fighter would fit. :smallconfused:

[Greyfeld]

Oh I see. But while ToB is internally balanced, it is not balanced against the system is is intended to be played with, if you see what I mean. ToB classes are flat out better than the Fighter, Ranger, Paladin etc.

Being better than a handful of classes that are known to suck doesn't make it imbalanced. It makes it a preferred alternative to suck.

If you're playing a campaign where you don't allow classes above tier 4, ToB may be considered imbalanced. But in any standard campaign (you know, the ones that are prevalent throughout the gaming community, where spellcasters actually exist), it IS indeed balanced.

Especially when you consider that the generally accepted "sweet spot" of power is Tier 3, right where the majority of ToB sits.


You can simply rename the Crusader "Paladin" the Warblade "Fighter" and be done. But if you actually want to make the base melee classes better, you're going to need to do something else.

Aside from flexing your creative muscles a bit, there's really no reason to bother. There are classes that do it better, without the need for spending time and effort applying fixes to broken classes that are just going to end up changing their flavor anyway. Most fixes of the fighter end up changing it into a poor man's Warblade, or something that's no longer a fighter. Just play the damn Warblade.


EDIT for clarity: ToB replaces the melee classes, it does not fix them. And the fluff of the replacement do not mix well with every campaign.

"I don't like the fluff" is the worst possible reason to nix the ToB from any game. Fluff can be changed at the drop of a hat, and is only limited to your imagination.

Spellcasters can rip apart the cosmos, but somehow "The ToB is too anime" repeatedly keeps martial characters from clawing their way out of the depths of suck.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Being better than a handful of classes that are known to suck doesn't make it imbalanced. It makes it a preferred alternative to suck.

If you're playing a campaign where you don't allow classes above tier 4, ToB may be considered imbalanced. But in any standard campaign (you know, the ones that are prevalent throughout the gaming community, where spellcasters actually exist), it IS indeed balanced.

Especially when you consider that the generally accepted "sweet spot" of power is Tier 3, right where the majority of ToB sits.Tiers don't describe everything. ToB has a much lower optimization floor than all of core minus the druid, so if people are playing at low optimization then ToB can be overpowered for them.

[Person_Man]

Tier 3 and 4 are very, very different.

Tier 3 is generally playable at every level, fun at every level, and has a variety of abilities. Many people consider it the "sweet spot" of 3.5 D&D. Most notably, every Tier 3 or higher class has access to a class abilities that:

Meaningfully scale with levels.
Include extensive lists of options.
The options can generally be changed each day.

This include spells, psionics, blade magic, psionics, vestiges, soulmelds, or Wildshape. (And what separates them from Tier 1 and 2 is that those class abilities don't scale as quickly)

Tier 4 is generally front loaded, can't keep up with higher Tier classes at ECL 5ish+, and is basically only capable of doing one thing 1. Every round of every combat it basically just make a full attack (if it's lucky) modified by 1 class ability (Rage, Sneak Attack, Feats, Smite).

In order to move a Fighter Tier 4 class up to Tier 3, you'd basically have to give him access to spells, psionics, blade magic, psionics, vestiges, soulmelds, or Wildshape, and it would have to scale appropriately. Just giving him more Feats or bonuses doesn't work, because Feats are less powerful then spells et al, and bonuses do not add options (they just make your full attack more powerful).

So you'd basically have to entirely rewrite the class, which basically makes it into a Warblade, Crusader, etc, which has already eloquently been done for you.

[Greyfeld]

Tiers don't describe everything. ToB has a much lower optimization floor than all of core minus the druid, so if people are playing at low optimization then ToB can be overpowered for them.

Tiers describe the general power level of a class, barring horrendously and intentionally breaking your character. Even a low optimization Wizard drastically outshines anything from tier 5/6.

That said, a DM should always strive for balance, and allowing one character to play a class that completely outshines the rest of the group by virtue of not being broken is a bad idea. It's possible to balance a game around a full Tier 4/5 party, not so much when the same group is peppered with tier 1/2 classes.

So yes, in that sense, you're correct in that ToB can overpower those players. But our discussion isn't about low-op gameplay, which is the exception and not the rule.



In order to move a Fighter Tier 4 class up to Tier 3

Fighter is Tier 5. But I agree with the rest of your post.

[Greenish]

Tiers describe the general power level of a class, barring horrendously and intentionally breaking your character. Even a low optimization Wizard drastically outshines anything from tier 5/6.Not really. Some classes are easier and more intuitive to play well than others.

Barbarian rages and smashes stuff, to make a fighter as good you have to select just the right feats. Poorly played and planned wizard/sorcerer/artificer, hell, even cleric will all probably be weaker than a ToB character who just picked his maneuvers on "oh, shiny" principle. Psionics are more intuitive and make good blasters, which is probably a contributor on "psionics are OP" thing. Bards have a reputation as weak partly because they're not so easy to build and play well, despite being t3.

Maneuvers don't really have trap options, in the sense that spells or feats do.